Motorbikes are Dangerous - Bullshit [Archive]

McJim

21st July 2006, 16:32

Why do we constantly hear about Motorcycles being dangerous? Stop for a moment and ponder this - how many car drivers are killed by motorcyclists each year? I'd be surprised if it's any (and I mean killed by the incident not by a kicking they might receive after making someone bin their ride!) compared to how many motorcyclists are killed by cars (Remuera Tractor type armoured tanks in particular)? Shouldn't the phrase be "Cars are dangerous, cars kill people - but if you're on a bike you've more chance of being killed by an idiot driving a car". If more people rode bikes then less people would drive cars and less cars would kill bikers. Hence bikes would become safer. (This Rant may be a repeat of someone elses - if it does I apologise but I did search the forums using the words "bike" and "dangerous" before posting.) I'm just sick of people saying "Why do you ride a bike? It's too dangerous". I'd be keen to know other logical put-downs for that kind of negative comment.

Cheers

BeakerRAT

21st July 2006, 16:37

I hear ya Big McJim, but the masses don't. Facts are the only thing that'll settle this one. May be best if we stay away from the facts though .... mmmm. I'm not sure either way.

Facts anyone???

Ozzie

21st July 2006, 16:43

It's the same as crossing the road....

I know, it is a lame thing to say, everyones heard it, "You are statistically more likely to get killed crossing the road".

But, to add a different spin.

Riding is dangerous if you do not pay attention, and you don't ride defensively (ok, there are some obvious exceptions, but we are talking generally).

Imagine closing your eyes and crossing Queen St in Auckland, you'd be f'kd for sure, same as not paying attention on a bike.

I said to my mum, when I got my first bike, "you trust me to walk across the road with my eyes open, you trust me to drive a car with my eyes open, now you can trust me riding a bike with my eyes open, there is very little difference.

:rockon:

flyingscotsman

21st July 2006, 16:44

The media don't let the facts get in the way of a good story. Best we all just keep quiet lest the fun police catch us !!

ManDownUnder

21st July 2006, 16:44

Maybe they're right - and maybe that's a good thing.

Bikes are also more fun, more versatile, cheaper to run, easier to park... and if people want to avoid danger - don't buy a motorbike.

... and don't cross the road, or eat pre-cooked chicken.. etc

Life is too short to worry about all the dangers that worry others.

Quickest way to stop an argument it to agree with the other side. "Yes - they are dangerous, and I ride them because I enjoy it"

skelstar

21st July 2006, 16:46

Forums for car drivers dont have posts about oil spills in the Takas and adverse weather conditions. Im far more likely to have an accident (and have) on my bike than in a car.

Therefore: riding a bike is more dangerous than driving a car (for me at least)...and almost all of you too Id imagine (with appropriate licences/skills).

ManDownUnder

21st July 2006, 16:47

sunhuntin

21st July 2006, 16:48

MDU, thats usually how i end an argument...same as the the ones who go on about how cold it is, and why dont i get a car. cos if im out in the weather, im living more than if i was in a car.

yeh, bikes are dangerous...so are cat scratches and wood splinters and the handles on trolleys. if we avoided everything that can hurt us or make us sick, we may as well put a bullet in our heads now.

The Pastor

21st July 2006, 16:50

yeh, bikes are dangerous...so are cat scratches and wood splinters and the handles on trolleys. if we avoided everything that can hurt us or make us sick

Welcome to the men-tall-ity of osh + the labour gvt. Its ingrained in us. Soon it will be come law. "the no fun bill" that will make us all renegades.

Squeak the Rat

21st July 2006, 16:51

Chances of car not seeing you are higher.

Seriousness of impact likely to be higher for a bike.

However, good riders are much more alert than the average car driver, so maybe that evens itself out somewhat.....

McJim

21st July 2006, 16:54

Okay, here's another slant on this - if a car crashes badly it can take out up to 10 people (2 cars - head on for example) and if a bike only poses a real danger to the rider then surely, by that argument the car is the more dangerous vehicle (here comes the cool but gross exaggeration) in much the same way as a nuclear missile is more dangerous than a .45 bullet.

Squeak the Rat

21st July 2006, 16:55

if we avoided everything that can hurt us or make us sick, we may as well put a bullet in our heads now.
Woooa, thats a paradox. You couldn't use the gun because it's dangerous and you'd have to avoid it! But then because you have to avoid it you need to use the gun :wacko:

98tls

21st July 2006, 16:56

Why do we constantly hear about Motorcycles being dangerous?

Cheers Because they are.....sure you can do things to minimize the danger but alot of the time we are at the mercy of cars/trucks etc...if they fuck up then its us that come off worse....i think its quite healthy to remember just how dangerous bikes are and stay on your toes.

BeakerRAT

21st July 2006, 16:56

Woooa, thats a paradox. You couldn't use the gun because it's dangerous and you'd have to avoid it! But then because you have to avoid it you need to use the gun :wacko:

My head hurts. :wacko:

Lou Girardin

21st July 2006, 17:02

They're quite right. I've been killed 9 times now by motorbicycles. Damn dangerous things.
I wouldn't be seen dead on one.

sunhuntin

21st July 2006, 17:10

My head hurts. :wacko:

yeh...mine too! LOL. on the whole OSH side of things, this country sucks.

Maha

21st July 2006, 17:15

Mum said to me the other day...''have you got a will''?
at this point, i have a will to live and that will do me just fine, dont want to tempt fate....:whistle:
in saying that, i realise however, that you will be hurt if you bin the bike and hit something solid, same goes if you are in a car. I drive a car, im not an idiot, all car drivers are not idiots....are we?
Tell ya what i notice when im in the Holden, bike's get up onya without you knowing it, im always checking the rear vison, point is, i ride a bike also, i have no bitch on the biker's that like to muscle it along, but when it goes wrong?..it aint always the car driver's fault, we need to let them know that we are there, having your light on beam?... great, but unless mr/mrs car driver has seen you, it wont stop them using your road space.No car driver has ever been charged with 'Murder of a Motorcyclist'... its not intentional.

Str8 Jacket

21st July 2006, 17:15

Bikes are dangerous but thats part of the thrill of riding, right?

onearmedbandit

21st July 2006, 17:25

Reading in a SuperBike (Uk) mag a while ago, the editor was talking about bike crashes and the perception that car drivers are responsible for a high percentage. I can not remember where he got his info from, but the most common type of crash was single-vehicle incidents, where a rider had gone to hot and heavy into a corner and lost it. Riders were more likely to die from a left hand corner (lose it into oncoming traffic) then being knocked off by a car driver.

You can not always ensure your own safety, but there are steps you can take to minimise the risks posed by other road users.

McJim

21st July 2006, 17:28

Maha

21st July 2006, 17:31

You can not always ensure your own safety, but there are steps you can take to minimise the risks posed by other road users.

Dam.... could have saved myself a bit of typing had i just used 'THAT' line....:yes:

eliot-ness

21st July 2006, 17:35

we may as well put a bullet in our heads now.

Shit no. Lead poisoning can be lethal.

Seriously.I've never seen a machine that could be described as dangerous. That is, until a human became involved. Then anything can happen, and usually does. Modern bikes, IMHO are potentially the safest vehicle on the road. Whether anyone else thinks differently doesn't concern me. I'm old enough to make my own choices.

Mr. Peanut

21st July 2006, 17:37

...atile, cheaper to run, easi...

:killingme

mstriumph

21st July 2006, 17:41

almost ANYTHING is dangerous if not used correctly and treated with respect ..

onearmedbandit

21st July 2006, 17:42

If someone says to me "oh, you're a temporary New Zealander", I just reply along the lines of either, "unless there's something you're not telling me, we all are arsehole", or "shit mate, didn't know you were immortal? How's that going for you?". Doesn't matter who it is, that's the style of answer they will get.

Maybe if they call you an organ donor, you could say "nah mate, as you say these bikes are fucking dangerous and if I do come off I expect to be splattered like a bug on a windscreen. Organ donation? Shit they'll be picking me up with a sponge."

sunhuntin

21st July 2006, 17:59

Ixion

21st July 2006, 18:19

"Why do you ride a bike? It's too dangerous"

"Only with drivers like you on the road. So get off it"

James Deuce

21st July 2006, 19:54

Boss who cycles to work most days:

"Bikes are bloody dangerous and I'd prefer it if you didn't commute on your motorcycle."

Me:

"If cyclists had to register their bikes we'd get a better idea of their injury stats, and I'm certain they'd spend more time in burns and plastics than motorcyclists. They are after all merely 100 odd kilo of mince in a lycra bag."

quickbuck

21st July 2006, 20:06

cheaper to run

How do you figure that?

As for being dangerous, well put it this way, it isn't the gun that kills, it is the person who pulls the trigger.

onearmedbandit

21st July 2006, 20:50

That analogy doesn't really fit the topic.

James Deuce

21st July 2006, 21:50

Dead right OAB, random bullets don't tend to arrive at 90 degrees to the firing range.

Drum

21st July 2006, 23:46

Aint it funny how all the best things in life are bad for you?

sunhuntin

22nd July 2006, 10:20

How do you figure that?

As for being dangerous, well put it this way, it isn't the gun that kills, it is the person who pulls the trigger.

kinda like that big guys shirt in happy gilmore..."guns dont kill people. I kill people."

in this case...its not the vehicle that kills, its the person twisting/stepping on the throttle.

quickbuck

22nd July 2006, 12:17

You got it.

Macktheknife

22nd July 2006, 13:28

Cheers to you all for your feedback on this issue - so the bottom line is bikes are statistically more dangerous - but then statistics are all lies anyway! Still I've always loved arguing indefensible positions - keeps you sharp for arguments when you're right! Been riding now for 3 months in Auckland - got knocked off after 3 weeks, shook hands with the driver immediately afterwards - no hard feelings, although it was blatently her fault. Then lost traction and fell off the other night in the rain while going round a corner. I really do know that life on 2 wheels is dangerous but there's this smug git at work who keeps calling me "organ donor", "Temporary Citizen" and stuff and I was looking for a decent one-liner kinda put down without being offensive to the geezer (being from Glasgow I can do offensive in my sleep and so need no advice).
Hell why didnt you say so!
Lets see now, 'aren't we all' is a standard response.
'You know I feel sorry for people like you, you live life according to what you are afraid of instead of what you enjoy.'
'Yes it is dangerous, what's your point?'
'You say that like it's a bad thing'
'Not as temporary as you will be if you keep that shit up'
'Everything in life that is fun is dangerous, is that a good enough reason not to enjoy it?'
These are some of the ones I use on a regular basis, I have noticed however that if you question people who say this shit they usually have no knowledge of riding themselves, they just 'know someone who knew someone' etc (some people actually think this is funny!).
If I take the time to explain that I have been riding for 20+ years and yes I have had a couple of crashes but here I am, how many times have they had fender benders etc? people suddenly become more reasonable.
Alternatively if the guy is pissing you off with this crap you could always have a 'bankside' chat with him! :msn-wink:

ManDownUnder

22nd July 2006, 14:29

How do you figure that?

It costs me 7c/km on the bike and 19c/km in the car.

As for being dangerous, well put it this way, it isn't the gun that kills, it is the person who pulls the trigger
True, although I'm not sure how that fits with the point you're trying to make...

Consider the stats (and I really don't know what they are) but I'm willing to bet that injuries and deaths per 100,000km travelled would highlight bikes as being more dangerous.

Likewise injuries or deaths pre registered vehicle.

Or fatalities per accident or... there are so many ways to make the point... and I (for one) am happy to accept that bikes are more dangerous than cars. I'm not defensive about it - it's just the way it is.

James Deuce

22nd July 2006, 18:22

It costs me 7c/km on the bike and 19c/km in the car.

Blimey, I'll have to get an RF900. That's about a third of what my spend is. The only thing that is better than the car is the petrol consumption. Everything else is more expensive, from tyres, to servicing, to consumables, the special gear needed for riding a bike (I could comfortably drive a car in my Y-Fronts.), the consumer crap that I don't NEED but buy anyway, all that stuff makes bikes much more expensive than cars.

Edbear

22nd July 2006, 18:34

we may as well put a bullet in our heads now.

Wouldn't that be rather dangerous...?:nono:

ManDownUnder

24th July 2006, 09:28

Blimey, I'll have to get an RF900. That's about a third of what my spend is.

Actually (rechecking recipts etc) by fuel spend is between 9.99c and 11.13c/km

sorry - I underestimated it.

I only toodle around on it, but that's also taking into account splitting 10km a day in 3rd, but otherwise all motorway/open road stuff.

MDU

Insanity_rules

24th July 2006, 09:34

We don't kill bikers, cagers do! Cynical but true. I'd love to see stats on how many bike fatalities are caused by cars.

Drunken Monkey

24th July 2006, 09:44

...Imagine closing your eyes and crossing Queen St in Auckland, you'd be f'kd for sure, ...

Nah, traffic is a bit slow. Symonds Street is the real killer.

...I'd love to see stats on how many bike fatalities are caused by cars.

Here's a little secret - try pressing the "search" button at the top of the screen!

quickbuck

27th July 2006, 19:58

Blimey, I'll have to get an RF900. That's about a third of what my spend is. The only thing that is better than the car is the petrol consumption. Everything else is more expensive, from tyres, to servicing, to consumables, the special gear needed for riding a bike (I could comfortably drive a car in my Y-Fronts.), the consumer crap that I don't NEED but buy anyway, all that stuff makes bikes much more expensive than cars.

You got it.

quickbuck

27th July 2006, 20:00

Actually (rechecking recipts etc) by fuel spend is between 9.99c and 11.13c/km

sorry - I underestimated it.

I only toodle around on it, but that's also taking into account splitting 10km a day in 3rd, but otherwise all motorway/open road stuff.

MDU

Haven't you heard of maintenance?
Also, do you "toodle" in the nude?

quickbuck

27th July 2006, 20:02

Dead right OAB, random bullets don't tend to arrive at 90 degrees to the firing range.

Haven't you been to war?

A firing range is like the ground where you sit the Basic Handling Test.

Indiana_Jones

27th July 2006, 20:07

They think we're dangerous, fuck 'em lol

I don't like motorcycle's cause' they're dangerous

<img src="http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h161/waldron_88/topgun.jpg" align="centre" vspace="10" hspace="10">

THAT'S RIGHT! Cage....driver......we are dangerous

-Indy

quickbuck

27th July 2006, 20:32

Well done :first:

oldrider

27th July 2006, 20:34

As our second son and his family have just moved to the Wanaka Area, Mrs O/R and I have been popping over the Lindis Pass and back quite frequently in the last couple of weeks.
Every trip there have been an assortment of cars and trucks that have spun out on the ice with varying degrees of consequence.
Going over on Tuesday there was a blockade caused by a woman who spun off into the creek and was quite seriously injured, she was taken away in a helicopter and her son was taken away in an ambulance. Three Cop cars in attendance and break down vehicles.
As we rode down through the tangle of vehicles on the bike we got quite a few smart comments and hand signals etc about we shouldn't be going through there on a bloody motorbike for f**ks sake.
The only danger that we face is the bloody cagers who are liable to spin out and take us with them or coming up too fast and slamming into us from the rear.
All you have to do is find the most appropriate gear and speed and follow the grit trails that the cagers can't even see because they don't have the incentive to look for them.
It was bloody cold coming home last night and the road was very frosty in a couple of places but we didn't loose our footing at all, unlike the idiot in front of us, we just rode around him, you should have seen the look on his face as we rode by on the bike while he was going back from whence he came.
The trip from Wanaka (almost to treble Cone ski field) to home or back the other way takes just under an hour and half and is full of variety and and a real fun ride.
Motorcycles are not dangerous, they are just a total delight. :first: Cheers John.

Renegade

27th July 2006, 20:55

Wellington city is the most dangerous city in the southern hemisphere to ride a push bike, people get nailed every other day, id rather ride my motor bike and take the risk cos at least i get my own lane to ride in!!!

Damm trolley buses!!

ManDownUnder

28th July 2006, 10:01

Haven't you heard of maintenance?
Also, do you "toodle" in the nude?

Yup, and insurance and registration and depreciation (on a $6,300 bike)...
Rear tire at $200 every 15,000km = 1.3c/km
Front at $$160 every 10,000km = 1.6c/km
Fuel at 10c/km
Oil at $15 every 5000km = 0.3c/km
Insurance = $350/year = 2.3c/km
Reg at $150(?)/year = 1c/km
Unscheduled costs at $500/year = 3.3c/km

Al up running cost... 19.8c/km

Car fuel cost alone... 19.c/km
Depreciation, maintenance, insurance registration there's no way in hell all that would fit into 0.8c/km...

So as I said - tis cheaper than the car.

Anything else I can help you with?.. oh yes I remember - toodling in the nude. I only do it upon special request, and then only in summer... avoids that embarrassing shrinkiage - I mean who wants a 2" willy?

edit - sorry sorry sorry - I forgot depreciation. 33,000kms added to the bike and let's say it has a current residual value of $3,300... for ease of calulation.

that 0.1c/km hardly tips the balance ... does it?
As for the gear
All up $1,000 for the lot. if I run the bike cheaper than the car by a mere 5c/km... which I think I'll EASILY do... that has a payback of 20,000kms - it is well and truly paid back. I expect to beat the car by around 10c/km... reducing that payback to 10,000kms... or 8 months.

Let me know if I can detail anything else for you.

zorro

28th July 2006, 12:39

Big McJim

You should run for Prime Minister your ideas on road safety are 100% more accurate than that Twat Police minister in road policing O'Connor whoops hope your not related!! I should forward your commenst to my wife in regards to enhancing my purchase a motorcycle campaign! riding a scooter doesn't cut it just makes you hungrier to the thrill of a real bike its just gonna be done !!

McJim

28th July 2006, 12:51

Yeah - I think the point I was trying to make really is that bikes are vulnerable - not dangerous. Cagers kill bikers, bikers don't kill cagers. Bikers, sadly, occasionally kill themselves but don't take rafts of innocent bystanders with them when they do. I have been deeply saddened by the number of bike deaths recently - Please let's all remember how vulnerable we really are and ride with as much care and attention as we each have available.

Cheers everyone.

The Big McJim

quickbuck

31st July 2006, 20:21

Yup, and insurance and registration and depreciation (on a $6,300 bike)...
Rear tire at $200 every 15,000km = 1.3c/km
Front at $$160 every 10,000km = 1.6c/km
Fuel at 10c/km
Oil at $15 every 5000km = 0.3c/km
Insurance = $350/year = 2.3c/km
Reg at $150(?)/year = 1c/km
Unscheduled costs at $500/year = 3.3c/km

Al up running cost... 19.8c/km

Car fuel cost alone... 19.c/km
Depreciation, maintenance, insurance registration there's no way in hell all that would fit into 0.8c/km...

So as I said - tis cheaper than the car.

Anything else I can help you with?.. oh yes I remember - toodling in the nude. I only do it upon special request, and then only in summer... avoids that embarrassing shrinkiage - I mean who wants a 2" willy?

edit - sorry sorry sorry - I forgot depreciation. 33,000kms added to the bike and let's say it has a current residual value of $3,300... for ease of calulation.

that 0.1c/km hardly tips the balance ... does it?
As for the gear
All up $1,000 for the lot. if I run the bike cheaper than the car by a mere 5c/km... which I think I'll EASILY do... that has a payback of 20,000kms - it is well and truly paid back. I expect to beat the car by around 10c/km... reducing that payback to 10,000kms... or 8 months.

Let me know if I can detail anything else for you.

Your tyres are too cheap, last too long.
10c/k on fuel? HOW?
Oil is too cheap.
Insurance is too expensive :blip:
To licence your bike for 1 year is $250 (so do you?).
I did not see a chain and sprockets. Brake pads, and eventually discs.

My head is worth a grand.
Feet about half that, and Jacket... Well I ride in all weather, so it ain't a cheap one either. Nor are the trousers, various sets of gloves, socks, and balaclava. Add to that all the thermals. (And none of these last forever).

As for the car, well the fuel consumption is a little more, not WAY more, and tyres 215 each, but last 40000k. The insurance is cheaper, and licence is less by $50 per year. Servicing are still free. As for clothes, a tee shirt and shorts are fine.

The truth is all cars are boaring, and the money I pour into my bike is all for fun! I do not skimp to prove that it is cheaper, and strongly discourage people who only want to ride to save on fuel costs.
Reason being, there heart and mind is not in the right place. They don't have the passion, desire, and enthusiasm a biker should.
They tend to have a few offs and then some become anti bikers and spout off how dangerous they are. :rockon:

saltydog

31st July 2006, 21:26

Thank goodness for armour and having 360 degree vision I say. The old grannies in their A40's are the most dangerous.....

sunhuntin

1st August 2006, 12:39

snip....

and strongly discourage people who only want to ride to save on fuel costs.
Reason being, there heart and mind is not in the right place. They don't have the passion, desire, and enthusiasm a biker should.
They tend to have a few offs and then some become anti bikers and spout off how dangerous they are. :rockon:

well said!! as ive said so many times...the number of scooter kids i get in wearing little more than a lid is disgusting. however...i had a young guy come in on a gn....it wasnt busy, so pulled up my pants leg and showed him the scars from my off...and they were minor!

some people are born into...like, their parent rides. others pick it up later and love it for every aspect. others just like the cool and cheap factor....sure, its cool to come off at 50k and lose half the skin off your body. :nono:

quickbuck

1st August 2006, 19:44

well said!!
Why, thank you :rockon:

Ixion

1st August 2006, 20:06

Your tyres are too cheap, last too long.
10c/k on fuel? HOW?
Oil is too cheap.
Insurance is too expensive :blip:
To licence your bike for 1 year is $250 (so do you?).
I did not see a chain and sprockets. Brake pads, and eventually discs.

My head is worth a grand.
Feet about half that, and Jacket... Well I ride in all weather, so it ain't a cheap one either. Nor are the trousers, various sets of gloves, socks, and balaclava. Add to that all the thermals. (And none of these last forever).

As for the car, well the fuel consumption is a little more, not WAY more, and tyres 215 each, but last 40000k. The insurance is cheaper, and licence is less by $50 per year. Servicing are still free. As for clothes, a tee shirt and shorts are fine.

The truth is all cars are boaring, and the money I pour into my bike is all for fun! I do not skimp to prove that it is cheaper, and strongly discourage people who only want to ride to save on fuel costs.
Reason being, there heart and mind is not in the right place. They don't have the passion, desire, and enthusiasm a biker should.
They tend to have a few offs and then some become anti bikers and spout off how dangerous they are. :rockon:

Au contraire, I would say that if anything MDU overstates costs. We are not all rich like you sprotsbike chaps, some of us must contain expenses.

MDU did forget warrants, though. About 0.1 cents per km.

Tyres, I'd be indignant if I only got 10000 from a tyre. 25000 is a better number. His price seems about right I pay anywhere from $150 to $250 depending on what it's for. Tyres are one area where I don't economise, but there's no sense in being extravagant.

Why do you think oil too cheap?

Insurance, I don't .

As for gear my kit comes in under $600, and it lasts at least 6 years . So, say $100 per year. 0.2 cents per km.

As to chains and so on, cars also require maintainance. The cost break out is different, but I'm pretty sure that over all the bike costs less. More bills, but smaller ones.

I see no reason to deprecate anyone riding for the sake of economy. In my day that was one of the main reasons, and the reason almost all riders started out. I'd be more unhappy about a state of mind that consigned bikes to the status of playthings for the rich, like a sort of road going jet ski. I'll always have a wave for the utility motorcyclist.

quickbuck

3rd August 2006, 20:27

I'll always have a wave for the utility motorcyclist.

Don't get me wrong, so do I.
However, bikes have become a road going "PWC" (Personal Water Craft) for the road, like it or not. Don't blame me, I didn't do it, BUT that is the sole reason that a large motorcycle dealer in a city near me stocks PWC's.
As for your gear costing only $600, my head is worth way more than that. Sorry. I hate frozen toes, so my boots go close to that too (as I said).

Cars also require maintenance, yes, but it is ALWAYS cheaper. And the car tends to cover more kilometres too.

Thing is I don't have to lie to my other half how much the bike costs to run, she doesn't really care. At the end of the day it is the price of fun.

NSR-Dan

3rd August 2006, 21:21

your kinda contradicting yourself Jim, you didnt argue motorcycles are not dangerous, you explained exactly why they are.... cages

McJim

3rd August 2006, 21:38

your kinda contradicting yourself Jim, you didnt argue motorcycles are not dangerous, you explained exactly why they are.... cages
Thanks for the input but the answer's in what you say - cages are dangerous - bikes are vulnerable - bikes only harm the riders - cages maim indiscriminately. Bikes are dangerous for those who ride - this is obvious but I'm trying to get people to think - where is this danger coming from. Even cage drivers are vulnerable to off road vehicles - they're 27 times more likely to be fatally injured in a collision with an off road vehicle than another car. And yet there is no uproar about 4WDs. All I'm hearing is unfair accusation of bikes being an irresponsible and dangerous choice and I think people aren't opening their minds to other realities. The purpose here was to create debate and provoke thought and other perspectives.

NSR-Dan

3rd August 2006, 22:20

Thanks for the input but the answer's in what you say - cages are dangerous - bikes are vulnerable - bikes only harm the riders - cages maim indiscriminately. Bikes are dangerous for those who ride - this is obvious but I'm trying to get people to think - where is this danger coming from. Even cage drivers are vulnerable to off road vehicles - they're 27 times more likely to be fatally injured in a collision with an off road vehicle than another car. And yet there is no uproar about 4WDs. All I'm hearing is unfair accusation of bikes being an irresponsible and dangerous choice and I think people aren't opening their minds to other realities. The purpose here was to create debate and provoke thought and other perspectives.

lol 4wd's suck, my cage is a mini, but it should be ok cause there is a cage in my cage if you know what i mean