AA trying to change the give-way law (again).

[Squeak the Rat]

AA are once again trying to get our give way laws the same as a lot of overseas countries, so that cars turning right have to give way to cars turning left into the same street.

Just wondering what the general opinion of this is, and whether it is worth implementing....

Having driven and ridden in the UK I'm confident that this law works in practice, and I can see benefits in removing confusion and maybe preventing accidents. However, surely the transition would be a complete nightmare with people forgetting and causing shiteloads more crashes.

Is the longterm gain worth the potential short term pain? Can kiwis cope with such a change? (subliminal NO)

And would this be another case of "lets change the law because drivers are too incompetent to understand the current one"?

[The Stranger]

We have the simplest give way rules of any country in the world.
Hell the rule even appeals to the survival instinct.
Basically it is give way to anything that would hit your drivers door.

Now the mindless masses can't even deal with that, I fail to see how adding even one exception is going to clarify anything.

[James Deuce]

.

Is the longterm gain worth the potential short term pain? Can kiwis cope with such a change? (subliminal NO)

And would this be another case of "lets change the law because drivers are too incompetent to understand the current one"?

I agree wholeheartedly with the comment about the UK.

Changing the law in NZ isn't going to improve understanding of traffic rules, or competence.

Changing the law will just make make the AA membership feel like they belong to an organisation that can "get things done".

If the Government was serious about reducing accidents then they would have Police concentrate on intersections, not speed, irrespective of whatever give way law was in place.

[SimJen]

Free left turn at traffic lights would be a better idea....

[Biohazard]

And would this be another case of "lets change the law because drivers are too incompetent to understand the current one"?

Nail on the head m8, no matter what new laws are introduced there is always going to be people who cant and wont comprehend it...

Lets face it...its dangerous out there people, so be prepared for the nutters/whack jobs who have the ability to take out a bus cue should they so wish !!!

All roads are scarey, no matter what country we live in or have visited..Cars are wonderfull, the drivers are killers.

[scumdog]

They'd be better off trying to get a law change to allow left turns if the way is clear at the lights when the lights are red, the do the equal of that in the USA and it works a treat.

But leave the give way laws alone FGS!!

[bobsmith]

now... can anyone else see the problem with implementing a rule that we use every day, which is completely opposite from what we're doing now???

It will be a complete caos especially in a country like NZ where the government communicates with public soooo ineffictably that many of the public wouldn't know that the rule has changed after a month it has taken effect. hell, they count on people listening to radio, watching news or reading the newspaper to learn these new rules, etc... but some people (including myself) do none of these things! (well I am a little shocking though... I learnt about the last election only a week before the election and that's only because my girlfriend was talking about it...)

[SimJen]

Most drivers have trouble with the current rules....
How many times do you see people at roundabouts indicating right as they enter and then going straight through with the left indicator on as they exit, they have no idea they are effectively holding up traffic going straight through from the other direction as other cars think they will be turning across them.
For fucksake don't indicate going in to the roundabout unless you are going around it.... only indicate on the way out if going straight through.
I follow about 3 or 4 cars most mornings on the way to Hams that do it different at each roundabout.
Cage drivers should have their genitals crushed

[The Stranger]

They'd be better off trying to get a law change to allow left turns if the way is clear at the lights when the lights are red, the do the equal of that in the USA and it works a treat.

But leave the give way laws alone FGS!!

May be ok for you guys, but I live in Auckland.
Have to keep it simple, words of one syllable and no exceptions.

One law change I would support though is making everyone have to re-sit their scratch and win every 5 years.
Should take a lot of wankers off the road.

[SimJen]

Retaking a scratchy will make no difference. The licenses must get harder, its too easy to get one, then you can jump straight into a 500hp 2 tonne weapon of mass destruction.
Why is a motorcycle licence so much harder/longer than a cage licence????

[Squeak the Rat]

I reckon it's bloody scary. Doing this will not suddenly make incompetent drivers good. The problems aren't all caused by tourists, it's mainly people who live in this country (source: thin air).

Stop changing the laws, instead have a fail quota on the driver licence exam.



I learnt about the last election only a week before the election and that's only because my girlfriend was talking about it...)
Is your girlfriend chinese?:innocent:

[bobsmith]

Is your girlfriend chinese?:innocent:

No..... how the hell do you get chinese from that? If she was chinese, I wouldn't have known about the election full stop.....

[merv]

The problem is they should never have changed the law in 1977 to put us out of kilter with the rest of the world. The give way when turning left in my view has always been stupid causing a lot of hesitation - is the car behind going straight through, can I turn in front of the left turning car? If we'd stuck with the rule that when turning right we gave way it would be so much easier.

The AA wants to bring it back and personally I agree with it. In damn near 30 years much of the population has not learnt to cope with it and I don't think it would be hard to change it back.

[Ixion]

I can tell you, but you'll have to come close, so I can whisper it.

[ZeroIndex]

Basically it is give way to anything that would hit your drivers door.
Wow.. that is by far the simplist way of looking at it (never thought of it like that..

but yeah, being from South Africa, the whole 'person turning left goes first' is stupid, and a waste of time.. the person turning right takes 3x as long to get into the road they're trying to get into, and they end up backing up traffic behind them.. AA you are stupid, wake up and smell the asphault.. the current road rules are like the petrol prices 3 years ago.. no one was complaining for 1litre to $1 for gas..

*Edit: um.. i don't really know what that last bit about petrol had to do with anything on this topic, but hey, it seemed good at the time

[Ixion]

Arrgh. No. No. NO. I remember when they changed it last time. Blurdy chaos. Don't let's go there again. The present rule is not perfect, but better the devil you know...

[Motu]

This rule has already been changed,now they want to put it back to how it was.We all coped with going from a rule that made sense to one that seemed just bloody stupid - surely we can make the change back just as easy?

Oh,that's right,our roads are full of Chinese drivers now.And with all the PC shit going on there will be so much arse covering so no one gets blamed for the slightest thing going wrong that they will make it so complicated no one will understand.

[pritch]

However, surely the transition would be a complete nightmare with people forgetting and causing shiteloads more crashes.


I wouldn't worry about that. Most NZ drivers have got bugger-all idea who gives way to who anyway.

This isn't just a random prejudice, I have shown a situation (two cars turning right) to some fifteenm people at work the two guys got it right but only two of the females did. The two had both been coaching teenagers to sit their licence.

Statistically though that's a real anomoly as the law of averages would have given 50% a pass, but they almost all got it wrong.

Same when I drove a bus, there were two places where that exact situation arose and nobody ever gave way (willingly) although I had the right of way.

[Ixion]

No, we didn't cope the first time round. Well, I did, and I'm sure you did. But I knew lots of older people who never got to grips with the "new" rule. It only seems that we coped because the ones who didn't have by now all died off.

Now the majority of motorists, even older ones, have only ever been taught the present rule.

If they change it, I will cope, OK, you will cope fine, but thousands won't. Chaos.

[Paul in NZ]

Good lord - the AA doing something related to road and driving and not selling financial services, travel and insurance? Surely that must be a mistake?

[Biohazard]

Good lord - the AA doing something related to road and driving and not selling financial services, travel and insurance? Surely that must be a mistake?

There only making noise as its time to review there annual budgets:blip: and they dont want to loose out.....

[sunhuntin]

No, we didn't cope the first time round. Well, I did, and I'm sure you did. But I knew lots of older people who never got to grips with the "new" rule. It only seems that we coped because the ones who didn't have by now all died off.

Now the majority of motorists, even older ones, have only ever been taught the present rule.

If they change it, I will cope, OK, you will cope fine, but thousands won't. Chaos.

im seriouisly considering hanging up the keys til everyone gets the hang of the new give way rules. mums ONLY just worked the indicate at roundabouts...only after me nagging her and reading something in the paper. now theres bloody giveway rules im gonna have to nag about. lol.
honestly, i think everytime they do this, every licensed person should have to go and sit a simple FREE test to make sure they understand. i wouldnt have a problem with that.
i also agree, free left turn on a red would be much better....as someone else said, they have in the states and canada and its like a dream come true.

[Swoop]

Yes, everyone has adapted to the new "indicating around-the-roundabout" law very well... Tui moment.
I'm sure the insurance companies will love it.......

[Paul in NZ]

Yes, everyone has adapted to the new "indicating around-the-roundabout" law very well... Tui moment.
I'm sure the insurance companies will love it.......

I just turn on my hazard lights 200m from the roundabout....

[GR81]

as long as Labour stays in power... the law will be changed.
illogical pricks!

[Squeak the Rat]

I have shown a situation (two cars turning right) to some fifteenm people at work the two guys got it right but only two of the females did.

Yeah that turning right without a giveway sign thing gets on my nerves. It's amazing how much abuse you cop when you "assert" your right of way..... 4 out of 15 sounds better than what I would have picked based on observations.

When circa 75% of the driving population don't know a give way law then there surely has to be some problem with driving standards......... Speed kills? yep because most drivers are too stupid or incompetent to handle it....

[Jantar]

In my opinion the old law, and the one that the AA want to bring back in, made a lot more sense than the present law. It is just so simple:

Give way to all vehicles if you are turning right.
Give way to all vehicles aproaching from your right;

This way there is no need to guess what another vehicle might be intending, and the only time that simple courtesy comes into play is when 2 vehicles approach head on and each wants to turn right.

[Squeak the Rat]

No..... how the hell do you get chinese from that? If she was chinese, I wouldn't have known about the election full stop.....

Maybe she wasn't talking about the election...... :rofl:

[Motu]

Yeah that turning right without a giveway sign thing gets on my nerves.

I notice the uncontrolled intersections in the city are turning into give way intersections - the fact that totaly opposite rules apply is beyond most people.They never check what sort of intersection they are coming into - it appears they treat all intersections as give way - the other people give way that is....

[Lou Girardin]

So why can Sweden change from driving on the left to driving on the right without any major problems.
But Kiwis can't manage a change of the give way rule back to how it used to be?

[JKWNZ]

If they changed the rule do you think you'd ever get to actually turn across the road?! You'd have traffic banking up behind you for Africa...

The current rule "forces" drivers to be courteous and let you across a road, the problem is drivers are both dumb (so understand the rule) and aren't courteous.

So everytime the population doesn't understand a rule we should dumb it down for everyone to understand. Just because the otherway is simple doesn't make it right.

In France they have 2 different rules for round abouts (give way to those on the roundabout and give way to those entering a roundabout)... but because the French are more courteous it actually works.

Rant over

[u4ea]

We have the simplest give way rules of any country in the world.
Hell the rule even appeals to the survival instinct.
Basically it is give way to anything that would hit your drivers door.

Now the mindless masses can't even deal with that, I fail to see how adding even one exception is going to clarify anything.


ahem........i am sikov idiots not giving way on my left at unmarked giveways(t junctions).....if i am crossing the centre line to turn right then why does no one ever give way to me if theyre turning in from my left.......did they change the rules somewhere or are cops not noticing blatent flouting of law and dangerous driving habits??????? if they make all unmarked intersections the same as giveways then this may stop happening?????and keep the traffic flowing .........

[Jantar]

u4ea, this is one of the major problems with the current law. It was foreseen when the rule was changed, and subsequently we have seen confusion reign.

If you are turning right, and the vehicle coming towards you wishes to turn left, then they must stop and give way to you. But the vehicle imediately behind the one that wishes to turn left is going straight through, and may legaly overtake the one that has stopped to give way to you. You in turn must give way to the one that is going straight through, so now we have two cvehicles giving way to a single one that is going straight through. The one turning left may see that you have stopped to give way, and hence proceed illegally.

Under the old law, and the one that AA would like us to go back to, the vehicle turning left can continue its turn, and the only one that must give way is the one turning right. Which is the de facto way that it workd right now.

[Freakshow]

We have the simplest give way rules of any country in the world.
Hell the rule even appeals to the survival instinct.
Basically it is give way to anything that would hit your drivers door.


I drove in Aussy where they do it the backwards way and I found it left people sitting venerable in the middle of the road meanwhile letting the guy sitting safely in a side street right of way????

The way I see it is for most of these situations imagine a traffic Island in the middle of each intersection and think of it as around about!

[The Pastor]

The rule that I would like introduced, everyone must do 1 or 2 years on a gn250 BEFORE getting a car licence. That would change drivers attitude.

[MacD]

The problem is they should never have changed the law in 1977 to put us out of kilter with the rest of the world.

If I remember correctly we copied it from Victoria, Australia. They of course then got rid of it.

The law as it stands is perfectly logical on paper, and as has been said is best summed up by the driver's door rule of thumb. However, it is pretty impractical as people tend to hesitate and won't turn right until the left-turning car has come to a complete halt. Even worse are the left-turning people who wait while cars going straight ahead stream around them. And of course there are the left turners who don't indicate on purpose so they don't have to give way. I particularly like meeting those ones when I am driving my old EA Falcon wagon, as it likes having right of way! ;)

Anyhow, I would be quite happy to see the rule changed (back).

[Skyryder]

I'd go back to the old way tomorrow if I could. Why it was ever changed I have no idea. Under the old system and the AA proposed changes there is no blockage from vehicles turning left (giving way) as there is at the moment. In short more vehicles will be able to enter and exit the intersecton. Believe me guys the AA proposal (old way) is streets ahead when it come to traffic flow.

Skyryder

[MD]

I vote change it back. It would have worked if everybody obeyed the rule. Of course, they could have made it work by having Police focus on where most accidents happen - intersections. But the panel beaters association lobbyists pressured the Govt to pressure the Police to stay away from intersections. That's a win-win. More money for panel beaters from Joe Public, less Police cars get dented saving the govt repair bills.
So change it back and while at it change petrol back to 1977 at $1 a gallon! That's 22cents a litre people.
If people are too stupid to understand a give way law change, or any road code change, then I struggle to see how they have enough brain power to drive on our roads in the first place.

[McJim]

I feel very passionate about this coz I'm still receiving physiotherapy on my leg as a result of this particular quirk of kiwi road law. (the other driver - a kiwi - was the one that couldn't understand it) I've driven in France, Spain, UK, Germany (lurve those autobahns!) and it works. Rumour has it the insurance companies at large want this rule changed back to sensible to save them money on claims. I understand the rule fine - I think it was daft and a short sighted solution to a temporary problem (a bit like a bridge with not enough lanes) In fact hanging on to this ill advised piece of legislation it's about as daft as the British hanging on to their precious pound to guarantee their future as a small 3rd world nation off the coast of Europe the Superpower. If the give way rule is that simple WHY IS IT NEVER OBSERVED when a vehicle turning right into a side street should but never does give way to a vehicle exiting said side street onto the main road and turning right. Many junctions are marked with the priority in this way but I have never seen this rule observed in my time in New Zealand. I'll endeavour to draft a diagram if the above makes no sense.

[MD]

.... I'll endeavour to draft a diagram if the above makes no sense.
Your entire post DOES make sense. You understand and attempt to follow our give way/intersection rules. Clearly you are over qualified to drive on our roads!

[McJim]

Here's the diagram anyway - took me ages to draw and I was buggered if I was going to leave it on the computer after all that work!

According to the law the red car has right of way I think but the blue car will cut right across his nose without a second thought. Be interested to know if anyone sees this rule observed. Let me know. Cheers.

[Finn]

Here's the diagram anyway - took me ages to draw and I was buggered if I was going to leave it on the computer after all that work!

According to the law the red car has right of way I think but the blue car will cut right across his nose without a second thought. Be interested to know if anyone sees this rule observed. Let me know. Cheers.

No one really knows this rule so I work on "he who hesitaes loses" or "first in first serve"

[Ixion]

,,. If the give way rule is that simple WHY IS IT NEVER OBSERVED when a vehicle turning right into a side street should but never does give way to a vehicle exiting said side street onto the main road and turning right.,,.

That does not signify. Back when we had the old rule (that folk want to go back to), that wasn't observed half the time either.

In fact , whatever rule you have, a significant proportion of motorists will be too stupid, lazy , arrogant, or all three, to follow it.

A good many people out there still believe that a vehicle on a main road has right of way over one on a side road. How many years since *that* was changed?

Changing the rules won't make people obey them. You'll just confuse them even more.

[James Deuce]

The "solution" is quite simple. People need motivation to accept change.

If you don't:

A. Buy a new road code with the new legislation detailed in it, and
B. Provide proof of purchase of the new Road code to an examining agency and then complete a scratchy exam within three months of a law change to a sufficeint level to indicate you understand the new law(s), you lose your license. And have to start from the beginning, irrespective of age.

It's a privilege to drive/ride, not a right.

[Pathos]

Here's the diagram anyway - took me ages to draw and I was buggered if I was going to leave it on the computer after all that work!

According to the law the red car has right of way I think but the blue car will cut right across his nose without a second thought. Be interested to know if anyone sees this rule observed. Let me know. Cheers.

Thats not the law or the give way rule that the AA want changed.

In that diagram the red car has to give way because it is at a give way sign.

The give way in question is when the red car is turning into the same road as the blue card from the opposite direction.

New Zealand roads are designed for the give way rule the AA is challenging. If we changed it all the intersections would stop working properly. I have to say everyone I've seen has obeyed this rule. What a pack of busybodied idiots...

[James Deuce]

New Zealand roads are designed for the give way rule the AA is challenging. If we changed it all the intersections would stop working properly. I have to say everyone I've seen has obeyed this rule. What a pack of busybodied idiots...

Err, no they're not. They're "designed" for the rule the AA want to reinstate.

[McJim]

Err, no they're not. They're "designed" for the rule the AA want to reinstate.
Regardless of what they were designed for (and I'm not disagreeing with either of you) they don't actually function - I used to commute twice the distance in half the time in London as I do here in Auckland and London is a wee bit busier that Auckland. It doesn't work why not just admit it?

[Ixion]

The "solution" is quite simple. People need motivation to accept change.

If you don't:

A. Buy a new road code with the new legislation detailed in it, and
B. Provide proof of purchase of the new Road code to an examining agency and then complete a scratchy exam within three months of a law change to a sufficeint level to indicate you understand the new law(s), you lose your license. And have to start from the beginning, irrespective of age.

It's a privilege to drive/ride, not a right.


That still won't work. People now sitting licences pass the scratchy test, and promptly go out on the roads and stuff it up. They just learn the pictures by heart and that the "answer to this picture is 'B', that one is 'C'". But are not capable of applying the actual rule in real life.Cos they are stupid. Just accept that whatever rule you have, most people won't understand it, and will stuff it up.

[James Deuce]

Of course it won't work. I just want to see some aggro people in the news. Wearing dungarees and sharing their one big tooth around so they can done say words proper.

[Lou Girardin]

New Zealand roads are designed for the give way rule the AA is challenging. If we changed it all the intersections would stop working properly. I have to say everyone I've seen has obeyed this rule. What a pack of busybodied idiots...

New Zealand roads are only 30 years old?

[Ixion]

No, but perhaps there could be problems because the location of give way signs, road markings, traffic light phases etc may have been designed around the existing give way rules ?

[James Deuce]

Regardless of what they were designed for (and I'm not disagreeing with either of you) they don't actually function - I used to commute twice the distance in half the time in London as I do here in Auckland and London is a wee bit busier that Auckland. It doesn't work why not just admit it?

I had the opposite experience commuting from Southampton to Ashtead, though Southampton to Manchester was quicker than it had any right to be, in traffic that dense. Auckland is starting to get to M4 levels, but I haven't seen M25 carpark levels yet. Driving in London? Why? the congestion charge is now 10 quid for cars. Cheaper to get a taxi, let alone the tube or a bus.

The main issue is that people in the UK are just much more polite than Kiwis, followed closely by having a much better idea of road rules. Putting your indicator on on the motorway in NZ is an invite for the people in the lane you want to move into to have a nose to tail to keep you out. A big chunk of NZ's "congestion" is caused by people not understanding that they are responsible for how traffic flows.

[Skyryder]

Regardless of what they were designed for (and I'm not disagreeing with either of you) they don't actually function - I used to commute twice the distance in half the time in London as I do here in Auckland and London is a wee bit busier that Auckland. It doesn't work why not just admit it?

That's the way I see it too. The old system where the left tuning vehicle had the right of way did not hold up traffic to vehicles turning right from the opposite direction.

Skyryder

[dnos]

wat does it matter - people still wont give a shit about the rules and do whateva they want as they do currently. AND yes, there are all the stupid ones out there who have no idea anyway.
i can see the arguments both ways - to be honest i think i could adapt to it easily but i don't see much hope for some of the people on our roads.

[brit-bloke]

I come from the uk and it took me a while to get used to the give way rule when turning left a change for the better I'd say...

[classic zed]

dont indicate left, just turn:gob:

that way the buggers turning right give way to you:yes:

seriously though, I still cant see why the law was changed here, the current system seems totally illogical. For instance if you want to turn onto a petrol forecourt or driveway just past a junction, you have to indicate after the junction, possibly giving the person following you very little chance to avoid you, if you indicate before the junction giving following vehicles the mandatory 3 second warning, you are likely to end up with the car turning right in front of you suddenly going for it thinking you are turning into the junction and knowing they have the right of way.:nono:

[idb]

No, we didn't cope the first time round. Well, I did, and I'm sure you did. But I knew lots of older people who never got to grips with the "new" rule. It only seems that we coped because the ones who didn't have by now all died off.

Now the majority of motorists, even older ones, have only ever been taught the present rule.

If they change it, I will cope, OK, you will cope fine, but thousands won't. Chaos.
The best way is to have a 12 month phase-in period where either rule can be used.

[Skyryder]

The question that know one has asked is 'will' the AA succeed?

Skyryder

[Lou Girardin]

The best way is to have a 12 month phase-in period where either rule can be used.

How about 12 months with no rules. That'll be a social experiment to see.

[Ixion]

But that's the permanent state of affairs in South Auckland!

[Squeak the Rat]

Scariest looking guy has right-of-way......

[Motu]

So it's - Give Way to Sarge at All Times?

[Moxy]

If the Government was serious about reducing accidents then they would have Police concentrate on intersections, not speed, irrespective of whatever give way law was in place.


I know you posted this ages ago although...

That's a really, really good point. I'd like to see cops parked up with their radar switched off, and hidden in some bushes by intersections watching to make sure everybody is obeying the give-way rules.

In the safeas report, doesn't it say that most accidents happen at intersections?

All of my near-collisions (as I remember) have been things like, a guy seeing the green turn light, and thinking they can also go straight ahead (seeing green) at an intersection - then running into my poor FXR which is mid-turn across their path, people thinking they can pull a fast one out of intersections (and not being able to) - across my path again.. Running red lights.. The list goes on..

[ZeroIndex]

I know you posted this ages ago although...

That's a really, really good point. I'd like to see cops parked up with their radar switched off, and hidden in some bushes by intersections watching to make sure everybody is obeying the give-way rules.

In the safeas report, doesn't it say that most accidents happen at intersections?
and to get the people that run red lights..

[jaykay]

Anyone who thinks the present "give way" rules are a good idea shouldn't be allowed a driving licence. No other country even debates this daft idea, get rid of the rule tomorrow, this afternoon would be even better.

[Skyryder]

Anyone who thinks the present "give way" rules are a good idea shouldn't be allowed a driving licence. No other country even debates this daft idea, get rid of the rule tomorrow, this afternoon would be even better.

I'm with you on that one JK. It would solve the road congestion problems. Increase public transport patronage and save the coounty on fuel bills, not mention faster flow-ons through intersections. Looking forward to meeting you sometime.

Skyryder