Drugs

[candor]

Hi - dropping in to see if anyone interested in this subject. Cos I'm with a group that lets road users know the risks. So thought would give some basic info and then if people want to comment, ask q's or tell us something go for it.
Don't know much about issues for motorcyclists. But hopefully these basics useful...

15-35% of the road toll is probly caused by drug intoxication here in NZ. Effects often different to alcohol and will be much worse if say 1 RISK drug is mixed with another or ANY alcohol too. RISKY - opiates, benzos (tranx), P in excess, smoke especially in the first hour after smoked (6 x crash risk ='s youth blood alcohol limits crash risk) and cannabis (tolerance no protection).
Cannabis found in blood of over 20% dead Aussie bikers but only in approx 3% of all other live drivers on the road. A NZ household survey found most smokers avoid driving when getting stoned - draw your own conclusions
Mixed with alcohol smokers crash risk skyrockets to 100x or same as a very high blood alc level (Ramaekers study). Medicines taken properly don't up crash risk enough to worry about but methadone can be dodgey. If not yet adjusted or if you're overmedicated or if you're underdosed (withdrawals cause bad sleep and anxiety and even other drug abuse to self medicate which in turn cause road risk). Driving after iv opiates dangerous up to 10 hrs.
General Drug Effects -
1. Objects can appear further away (visual effect plus time sense altered)than they are so misjudgements of distance or gaps even fine but fatal ones can occur eg get too close to centreline or other traffic (P and opiates).
2. Heaps slower recovering from nighttime glare with several drugs eg P / E
3. Feel invincible / unreal or overconfident - risktaking
4. Anxious or paranoid or even psychotic / hallucinated causes jittery errors
5. Unless using tranquillisers reactions most often slowed due to "dreaminess" plus less aware of road environment as might get lost in thoughts
6. Not so onto it re adjusting to changing conditions eg road / weather
7. Microsleeps (split second zoning out even happens with eyes open) - maybe less likely with being in wind? Riskier if tired or hungover plus drugs
8. Less ability to problem solve / make right moves if hazards appear

If you wouldn't drive drunk then be aware of drug risk too as many aren't or deny it including our Government. :whocares: Not them!

[Lou Girardin]

General Drug Effects -


3. Feel invincible / unreal or overconfident - risktaking
4. Anxious or paranoid or even psychotic
might get lost in thoughts




I get these just from riding.

[James Deuce]

But the Government says that speed is the main issue.

I can't go over 20km/hr when I'm stoned, and I once crashed into a tree and all that happened was that someone spilled their beer.

[Biohazard]

Eeeeeeeeek, its hard enoough to stay alive on the roads as it is with all the other morons running red lights, and doing the above. Bollocks if i'm going to do the same.

Scary scary

[Squeak the Rat]

WARNING, do not lane split while on acid......

[marty]

so you're 'with a group' huh? which group is that? some secret group? there's no information on which group you are with in your profile. you sound like a green party member

[Colapop]

No. There are no Green party members - they're all co-members!

[RantyDave]

Cannabis found in blood of over 20% dead Aussie bikers but only in approx 3% of all other live drivers on the road.
Did anybody test live Aussie bikers as opposed to other live drivers? I think you'll find that the percentages hold true regardless of whether or not the blood in question is smeared across the front of an artic. You also need to bear in mind that THC remains in the blood for a long time after it's done having any effect. Like, weeks. This is one of the things that makes drug testing at work problematic.

A NZ household survey found most smokers avoid driving when getting stoned - draw your own conclusions
Mate, have you ever been stoned? (disclaim: previous life, did not inhale, am now a responsible adult etc) You don't want to leave the house, let alone drive anything. I don't think I could even look at a motorbike stoned. Give it a go - get horribly mashed and go to a busy shopping centre. Now, tell me that wasn't an utter nightmare.

Microsleeps (split second zoning out even happens with eyes open)
I've microslept in a car. Most frightening experience of my life - it's like being teleported forwards a few hundred metres. I think if you microslept on a bike your chances of waking up at all would be pretty minimal. It's not a drug problem though, it's a 'big weekend' problem. Fucking hard to legislate for though so speeding tickets it is.

Dave

[GR81]

I can't go over 20km/hr when I'm stoned, and I once crashed into a tree and all that happened was that someone spilled their beer.

i have a tendancy to stop at green lights :(

[The_Dover]

drugs are baad. mmmkay?

[Macktheknife]

I've microslept in a car. Most frightening experience of my life - it's like being teleported forwards a few hundred metres. I think if you microslept on a bike your chances of waking up at all would be pretty minimal. It's not a drug problem though, it's a 'big weekend' problem. Fucking hard to legislate for though so speeding tickets it is.

Dave
Dave, I have had the experience too, and thats exactly what it feels like. I have Obstuctive Sleep Apnoea, which means I tend to stop breathing when Im asleep, which can be a bit exciting for my wife! It also means that quality of sleep is very poor. Before it was diagnosed I went thru a time when I had finally run out of energy and was experiencing some momentary black spaces of about 1 sec or so. (microsleeps) I did this one day on my bike at a set of traffic lights, what woke me up was the bike slowly falling to my right side (I only had my left foot down) needless to say that scared the crap out of me and amused the other road users no end. It happened one other time on the motorway on a sunday afternoon ride, I had a very long blink and found myself about 150m further down the road than I remembered, still in the same lane and no traffic about but the experience scared the jeebies out of me.
I set up a system of checking my alertness before riding after that to ensure it didn't happen again. I got myself off to the Dr and diagnosed shortly after this with OSA. I now have a machine that pumps air up my nose all night to make sure that I get a decent nights sleep and keep breathing, since then I have never had the experience again.
But I remember well the feeling of complete terror when I 'woke' to find myself teleported down the road, thank god the angels were looking after me that day.

[candor]

Glad to see you all have gsoh and... very diff points of view. Lou - some paranoia is good I guess and Jim, the Govt needs shooting is all I can say - LTNZ surveys its gloating over show it has brainwashed 50% of Kiwis to think speed is the devil with 9 mill of our money.

Do I or don't I use drugs... hey I'm just like anyone else (except Clinton), lets just say I'm no babe in the woods - my area of ignorance truly is bikes tho and what are the issues and how do drugs relate to your safety differently to other vehicle users (if there are differences). Like a stereotype could be that "sex - drugs and rock n roll" are part of biker culture. I know enough to know bikers prolly have higher risks than other motorists just for injury and are probably also more informed than others re safety stuff... thats all I know.

What. Aren't Greenies approved round here. Musta been my choice of the word "group", a real greeny type word maybe. But no - fraid I'm not one of them or emissions would be my thing right? Besides they didnt volunteer much when we posted to their websites. Anyway the group I forgot to menton is Candor (campaign Against drugs on roads) and its just a little Charitable Trust with a few volunteers scatered about.

Ranty - it would be more interesting if the oz study could compare live bikers drug use with the other type agreed. But I ythink the study is still a sign of smoke - possible fire, so worth considering. I would assume it was delta 9 thc they screened vblood for which is the active component and is linkable to driving impairment at certain levels - just because the levels of it drop 3 hours after use from usually over 100 to below 5ng.

Someone who smoked a week before or even a day before would not have delta 9 in the blood as I understand it. Which is how the Yanks can get science based convictions for dui cannabis and appeals under constitution which went to highest level did not succeed.

Prolly testing this sophisticated to seperate out delta 9 from other markers in blood is just too costly for workplaces. Saliva tests can confirm recent use but not so good on amount of use.

[The_Dover]

I find it really hard to smoke a joint while riding so I've built a special bong helmet.

If anyone wants one I can modify yours for you.

[onearmedbandit]

Double barrel or single? Water filtered? How do you ignite?

[Squeak the Rat]

I like to think we don't have anywhere near the same herion problem as countries such as aus and the UK, so you could probably discount H and methadone.

Interesting stats about the pot mixed with booze. But at the end of the day if the driver has done this then they will be over the booze limit and get busted anyway....

Have there been any studies on people driving under the influence of anphetamines? I'm not talking about people who have been on a 3 month bender, but take some speed or mdma and go for a ride. Maybe reaction times and mental alertness would be increased? (after all, the yank military dish that stuff out to fighter pilots, sub captains etc etc)....

PS - know where I can score some downers, man? :doobey:

[Matt Bleck]

/\/\/\ Want to get high?

[candor]

Hey Dover - That helmet would give you a big head right? I'll look out for you

Squeak "we don't have anywhere near the same herion problem as countries such as aus... " That's right and street users often don't drive but those who do are very high risk per crash studies so its always worth mentioning in case.

As for methadone with near 4000 on the program and huge amounts being diverted to naive users NZ is seeing a problem - cos once these addicts get a routine going in life rather than just crime/drugs one thing they do fast is get wheels. And clinic patients are causing road mayhem (several stories available)

"Interesting stats about the pot mixed with booze. But... if the driver has done this then they will be over the booze limit and get busted anyway...."

You'd think but thats wrong. The culpable crash dead with cannabis /alc in them are mostly under the drink limit (the mix is more than the parts)
... and only a third of people stoned on all drugs on the road are over alc limit
- so the alc checkpoints are like a sieve and only net a minority of drugged 1's

"Have there been any studies on people driving under the influence of anphetamines?"

Heaps - seems to be ok per prescription eg ritalin. or in moderation and may as you say improve skills / alertness and reactions eg truckies, though there are better stimulants that don't have danger of sleep deprivation

Problem with P is usually that a drinker will drink more not realising is drunk, or that effects of sleep deprivation are there but not felt (till the crash!). And some US studies do show increased risktaking type crashes with increased risk therefore for users who drive of dying. I'd say it depends very much who is studied / how they use eg youth would be worse off and bingers.

Re if its ok to take some mdma and go for a ride. Dose and whether you're in the peak intoxication stage would have some effect on crash risk - don't need studies to figure that one out. I'd say probably not a great idea if there are hallucinogenic properties to what is used as it adds to stimuli and distractions. Also ones mood may be too carefree causing reduced vigilance.

Quite a lot of nasty crashes have been caused by mdma use overseas including in the come down and even due to drug induced psychosis even tho use is not high in the driving population - most people chose not to drive on it as Scottish studies show (sorry to drone on studies again) that users feel they are way too messy, much moreso than if they had used other drugs.

The safest of those types of drugs for driving is likely legal bzp party pills which despite all the fuss about them lately it sems not one road death is associated with them. And I have made inquiry under the OIA about this considering MPs like Anderton have been blowing about bzp and road safety.
They are over the 21 day deadline for answering my inquiry so I asume its an embarrassed silence - the emperor has no clothes!

"PS - know where I can score some downers, man"?
I thought you liked uppers - ummm... try one of the D doctors - dotty duped or a deviate one (if ?fem). Take an extra 60 bucks with you if u not good lookin'.

[The Stranger]

Hi - dropping in to see if anyone interested in this subject.

Oh yeah, there are some whats interested alright.

[The Stranger]

Can't be stuffed reading the whole thread, but what is your angle here?

I mean it looks like you have come to a biker site to warn bikers about taking drugs and riding.
Why would you do that?

Bikers of all people are only too aware of whom comes out worst if they screw up. We really need no reminder of that.

Any biker whom does take drugs and rides probably wont do it too many times as natural selection will in the end sort it out and in the interim the risk to other road users is very minimal.

But hey, good luck anyway

[inlinefour]

I ride in the twisties to get the adrenaline working, if ya need drugs to get the hit while riding then maybe motomarsickles aint fer ya?:doobey:

[The_Dover]

I need drugs to get through the day.

Motorcycles are just a little "booster" for my rooster.

[BeakerRAT]

Subsitute Car for Bike

The Acid Song

I had not taken acid for twelve years.
But one night last summer I did
I was with friends in a barroom
Acting like a jerk & a kid
I knew we were asking for trouble.
& trouble was what we would get
Five of us dropped in the girls room. Psychedelicised, insane quintet

Well, that bathroom got crowded in no time.
Our minds were all blown in one flash Everyone in there got ugly.
We exited out of there fast.
Back in the bar we were happy (no problem, feel great!)
Back in the bar we were fine
Till Johnny turned into a Nazi.
& Mary threw up her wine

Well, in no time we all were ejected
Soon we were out on the street
The sidewalk began to perspire.
We had glass & dogshit at out feet
We went over to Mary's apartment (come on!).
To listen to the Grateful Dead
On the way there we lost Johnny.
He had opted for Bellevue instead

(It's fine.)
I'm really glad you talked me into this.
I'm having a ball.I love this.It's great, thanks a lot.Yeah,
I know my hair's on fire,
I know that.Your face is melting, Asshole.
Get the idea, your face is in your lap, babe.
(No, I don't know where your Ravi Shankar tape is, I'm sorry)

Well, I had to get out of that city.
Thought it was bringing me down
Me & my darling young Suzi
Said so long & drove out of town
Driving on acid is easy.
Driving on acid's a breeze
Just keep the car on the highway.
Don't laugh & don't fart & don't sneeze

Well, we got to my house in the country (OK, the country, this is much
better)
The trees were all throbbing & GREEEEN!
Suzi was sure she had cancer.
I was sure I was James Dean
We went up to the lake to go swimming. Down to the lake for a SWIM!
Suzi said, "Water cures cancer."
I asked her to please call me Jim

Well the acid began to wear off,
We stopped three times and then took a nap
A phone call from Bobby awoke us,
It seems there had been a mishap
Mary had gone off to Bellevue
To try to get poor Johnny back
She had gotten as far as St. Vincents
She walked in and went out of whack

Yes acid is usually dangerous.
The mild-mannered can quickly turn mean.
LSD can surely derage us.
Unless you possess thorazine
So the next time you wanna go out there.
When you feel like feeding your head Think twice before dropping acid.
Hold out for mushrooms instead

:doobey: :doobey: :doobey: