MOT wants your opinion

[candor]

Its having consultation rounds - 4 hour wrkshops everywhere before final policy is confirmed. Protest, dispute, speak up. To find your local meeting go to "safeas.govt" website.

[limbimtimwim]

http://safeas.govt.nz/safeas-workshops.html

[Lou Girardin]

Well publicised weren't they?

[James Deuce]

Been and f__king gone. Where was BRONZ to get us organised?

[Squeak the Rat]

FFS wasted opportunity....

[Ixion]

Humbug. MoT most emphatically do NOT want our opinion, or that of any of the general public.

This sort of sham "consultation" is how these government departments work.

They set up a rigged "consultation" process, take VERY great care that no-one except their own stage managed cronies know about it; hold workshops at dates and times when normal (working, non givernment drone) people can';t possibly attened (note the times of the workshops - midday, weekdays. NOTHING at weekends, when the public might actualy attend) ; stack the meeting with their stooges; and then claim "public opinion is [whatever we've decided it should be])

I'd be fairly sure that BRONZ knew nothing about it, because the MoT will have taken ENORMOUS pains to make CERTAIN they didn't. the last thing the bureaucrats want is bikers turning up.

[Macktheknife]

Perhaps I am just being overly cynical but.....STITCHUP comes to mind.

This really should be a TUI ad.

[The Pastor]

Theres still a meeting up in whagas for the auckland crew, its not a bad ride up there either!, but what is this all about?

[Ixion]

Whangarei one is midday on a work day. So no go for anyone working.

There's an evening (5pm to 9pm) one in Hammyhole this Thursday.

No hope of working folk getting from Dorkland to hammyhole by 5pm. But maybe by 7pm?

Anyone up for an invasion ? The Northern barbarians taking over the niice little stitchup half way through?

[ZorsT]

There is a good chance i'll make the Nelson one. I'm not sure if they'll actually listen to a hooligan like myself though.

[Ixion]

Hammyhole is the only one in the evening, in the Northern world.

Anyone want to join an invasion fleet -

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=32966

Or any Hammyholians gonna take them out?

[twinkle]

They have a forum!!! :first: All those people who have opinions can go and express them here: http://www.safeas.govt.nz/smf/index.php

[petesmeats]

Christchurch has one on saturday morning... what is the workshop about?
Do you just turn up??? If people made suggestions would they listen and act on these suggestions?

Any more info on these workshops would be much appreciated... the website doesnt say anything about them.

[The Pastor]

Yeah, what are the workshops for?

[Ixion]

The workshops will be a put up job. They will be packed with MoT stooges who will slavishly endores the MoT agenda for lower speed limits. Since no-one else turns up to object, the MoT will then claim that lower speed limts have "general public approval". If you go along and object they can't clain that everyone agreed. But be prepared to be bad mouthed.

[Ixion]

They have a forum!!! :first: All those people who have opinions can go and express them here: http://www.safeas.govt.nz/smf/index.php

And , of course, they will take a greta deal of notice of opinions expressed there.

[raster]

The website attempts to explain what it is for, Hop on to the forum and put your opinions accross.

I would like to know who had heard about this website or workshops or discussion procedure before now(who arn't part of it).



anyone?




don't be shy

[twinkle]

And , of course, they will take a greta deal of notice of opinions expressed there.

Of course they won't. I'm interested to see what appears on the Hamilton workshop output with a few bikers there.

[Wired1]

When is the Nelson one?

[raster]

It is safer to ride a motorcycle than a cycle and FAR safer than walking.

Speed is only 11% of causes of motorcycle accidents with poor observation 52% and Failure to giveway 42%.
Yet most people think just because they don't speed they are driving safely.

I see they are not targeting the major areas of causes of accidents, too hard basket?

Who wants to go down to Hamilhole.

[candor]

Ixion and other are right. It is an attempted stitch up. But it might not work this time as a few people hammered them at the Welly workshop.

They are trying to get the public to give the nod to continue what they are doing cos they know its failin' and they gonna miss the road toll targets the UN or someone set for em by 2010. If they have a mandate to continue with current approach then it our fault we die not theirs on reckoning day in 2010.

But a concerted attack on them is causing a bit of a retreat. So reinforcements would be welcome. I think workshop attendance is the feedback they consider not that on website (which is just a venting place).

At the workshop they propose their dumb ideas to you and encourage agreement. Going to great lengths to get it. Then you all get put in groups with an MOT plant who tries to lead sheep. You write on a big sheet what you think the issues are. They get put on the wall and you put gold star next to favored ideas and red stickers against bad ideas eg demerits on speed cams, thats how they judge the will of the people.

Lunch is good. Welly was ALLLLL suits. Allll men. Few youngies or basically real ordinary people. I'd love to see their reaction to hogs pullin' up.

[Skyryder]

Christchurch has one on saturday morning... what is the workshop about?
Do you just turn up??? If people made suggestions would they listen and act on these suggestions?

Any more info on these workshops would be much appreciated... the website doesnt say anything about them.

I had planned to doother things but I might go along and see what transpires.

Anyone else interested??

Skyryder

PS Any issues you want raised??

Load em up. Mine are those silly roundabout rules on signalling when not turning..............and I'll be having a bitch about the Instant loss of Licnce thing while I'm at it.

[Ixion]

WINJA. Where are you? Get off y'r arse on Thursday night. Your country needs you. And you're halfway to Hamihole already. And you're just the bloke we need for this, rest of the folk are too polite to tell the cunts to stick their 80kph speedlimit up their arsehole.

That's what'll the agenda will be - a blanket 80kph speed limit, and (as said) demerits for speed cameras.

Meetings like this, if y'don't get escorted out by the cops you're not going hard enough.

What a pity Mikey's in wellington, he'd be perfect for this.

Rest of y' it's only 80 miles. Get on y'bikes hursdya night.

[Jantar]

Dunedin and South Otago riders. Please show up en masse on Tuesday 1st August.

Central Otago riders, (I think there are only 2 of us) at Cromwell on Thursday 3rd August.

Brefore that all riders please respond to their forum questions and let them know what we think of their 3 pre-prepared answers.

[Skyryder]

Christchurch has one on saturday morning... what is the workshop about?
Do you just turn up??? If people made suggestions would they listen and act on these suggestions?

Any more info on these workshops would be much appreciated... the website doesnt say anything about them.

The 28 is a Friday. I was planning to go if it was the Saturday but Friday is a no no. Thought it strnge that all other centres are weekdays then I checked date.

Skyryder

[Squeak the Rat]

Arsebiscuits. Sorry Ixion I have a birthday dinner planned for tomorrow night otherwise I would have been there in a flash.

Not something that I can get out of, but guys get down there and give them some stick. :yes:

[Ozzie]

If I can get my mits on $20 for fuel, I will be there, with a non squashable voice.

Should be able to get time off to make it there either at 5 or close enough to it.

Who else can go, meet at the Autobarn at Papakura?

How long does it take to get to Hamilton? An hour from there?

[Blackbird]

I haven't had the opportunity to read all the material yet but it seems to be yet another "restrictive and punitive" approach rather than an "enlightened and educational" one.

What about better standards of training? Probably in the too hard basket and of course politically sensitive because it means that cage drivers would probably have to receive more training and more rigourous assessment too. That would be a vote-loser wouldn't it as cage drivers have the opinion that they don't need any improvement in their standards.

Nope, just more expedient to get the big stick out (again):angry:

[Ixion]

If I can get my mits on $20 for fuel, I will be there, with a non squashable voice.

Should be able to get time off to make it there either at 5 or close enough to it.

Who else can go, meet at the Autobarn at Papakura?

How long does it take to get to Hamilton? An hour from there?

Yep, I'll be leaving werk early, so as to get there around 5.
4pm at the Autobahn should be about right. Might be a wee bit late, depending on how bad traffic is around Te rapa, but that's no bad thing, arriving late attracts attention

I'll wait at the autobahn in case anyone else is going (and if you're not WHY NOT?)

[Ozzie]

I'll wait at the autobahn in case anyone else is going (and if you're not WHY NOT?)

I'll be there......Who else?

[Ozzie]

From what I got from a quik skim, it is the oldies, the younguns and the piss heads that account for most of the accidents.

Younguns real bad, being at fault in nearly all accidents they were involved in, same as old codgers.

Perhaps power limitations for learners (for cars not only bikes), a 2ltr sooped up car is just as dangerous if not more so than a bike over 250. If they did that, and introduced tougher testing old the oldies, that would reduce the deaths for sure.

What sort of limitation is using a bike over 250 anyway? Should be to do with power not engine size, think of how quick off the mark some of those 2 strokes are.

Have a mag at home that paints the international trend, will provide a quote tonight, makes a mockery of our system.

[candor]

Best strategy if a few go is to seperate out when they put you all in groups then u can influence more outcomes. And they elect a scribe and a speaker for each group. Planted scribes seem to "rephrase" what group is saying to try get the mot desired consensus ie agreement with their close ended questions. Try to be scribe therefore.

I am amazed they never told you bikers and that it was an accident u found out - jus cos I stumbled on ya site!

Have to laugh at some of ya' comments on their control freak close ended questions. As they did have 3 that were worse and only yesterday they rephrased it to be 2 questions that allowed for other than the desired responses. Now their heads will be spinning - some guy took awhole day rewriting those q's for each region. But welly ones had been answered so they didnt mess with them dont think.

We think they told noone at akld workshop about website as they in a bit of a stew about the little bit quite negtive feedback already from welly!

[Squeak the Rat]

Candor - whatever your motives, thanks for bringing this to our attention. Hopefully we can get at least some sort of turn out and at least try to make a difference.

[candor]

Jeez - "whatever ur motives!" I'm just passionate about road safety. It and drugs mostly in combination killed all my family and then some friends to boot...so why not just go worry about strangers instead?

They'll probably cancel the workshops once they catch wind you lot have caught wind. Pure evil is how I regard this Govt - u guys say u gotta ride like "cage drivers" r out to get u - the govt is helluva lot worse.

[Squeak the Rat]

Sorry mate, offence was not intended by that remark.

It certainly will be interesting to see their reaction. Not sure if it's going to make a difference but we gotta give it a shot......

[Ozzie]

I'm with squeak, Candor cheers for letting us know, and sorry for your family and co.

Hopefully we can come up with something usefull and these drop kicks will listen to what we say. And, possibly make a difference.

Thanks again.

[ZorsT]

When is the Nelson one?


1 August (Tuesday)
Seifried Vineyard
Cnr State Highway 60 and Redwood Rd
Appleby

5.00 pm -9.00 pm
I'll definatly be there. I can't let this slip by.

[Squeak the Rat]

Good stuff guys. Any one notice on the website forums that they didn't have the dates posted until 3 days after the wellington workshop and 1 day before the auckland one?

Bastards.....

[John Banks]

Yep, I'll be leaving werk early, so as to get there around 5.
4pm at the Autobahn should be about right. Might be a wee bit late, depending on how bad traffic is around Te rapa, but that's no bad thing, arriving late attracts attention

I'll wait at the autobahn in case anyone else is going (and if you're not WHY NOT?)

I'll be there if I can get the bike to start, or if I get the car back.

[Skyryder]

What we need is a signed letter by as many Kbers as possible and sent to the Minister of Transport about this blatent 'lack of consultation.' And also a copy to the media. Anyone want to front up and be spokesman?? Needs someone with 'some' knowledge of biker concerns.

Skyryder

[Wired1]

Yep me too, I just live around the corner. Does this mean we can all get tanked up courtesy of the MoT?

[Jantar]

Could I recommend that at each meeting that Kbers attend, that we make a point of ensuring that we are united in what we say, and don't contradict each other. Also point out that we represent a group of 4900 motorcyclists, and aren't simply there as individuals.

A few simple things to note when speaking to others in this type of group:
Establish your credentials early;
Always make statements with positive outcomes, ie instead of saying "... that won't work because of...", try saying "... maybe, but a better outcome would be achieved if.....";
Use actual data and statistics where available to your advantage;
If you dont have exact data, then say "I believe that..." or "In my opinion...."
Where the opposition use statistics in a misleading manner, ask for the origional data;
Anecdotal evidence should only be used as examples to back up statistical data, it is not evidence in its own right;
Finish on a positive note establishing exactly what outcome you desire.

[Ghost Lemur]

*Bangs head on desk*

I've now got a headache. Not due to surprise, because none of this surprises me. Rather because it's seems to be the way our society (and western - maybe eastern too) is heading.

The sacrificing of "freedom" for safety is virial and infecting all facets of our lives. Not just roading. Travel in general (read a recent "whistleblower" about US air marshals putting knowing innocent civilians on watchlists due to having a bare minimum requirment for monthly reports - sure it doesn't affect us, unless we dare to travel there), ministry of health wanting to mass medicate the population by forcing folic acid to be added to flour/bread, users/consumers rights being ongoingly restricted while media/retail cartel hide behind the so-called "threat from piracy", etc, etc, etc.

On the topic at hand. I'm afraid we're fucked. Plan and simple. We're divided and unorganised.

However there could be light at the end of the tunnel. But it depends on do we have the determination to get organised. To all donate either the necessary time or money to getting organised.

Based in the UK is a group MAG (Motorcycle Action Group) (http://www.mag-uk.org/index2.html). Now unlike our BRONZ, these guys are well organised, focused, and more to the point. THEY"RE GETTING RESULTS.

They've not only been been not only sucessful in the UK but also against the EU. They release there own press releases, get requested to comment on event be media, and generally provide some balance to the heavy handed wantings of the government.

Unfortunately I don't hold out much hope. This isn't the first time this topic has come up in the 3-odd years I've been on this site, and there has yet to be anything done.

Not much help on the organisation side of things. But my membership money is ready and waiting for the time we have a MAG NZ.

[James Deuce]

What we need is a signed letter by as many Kbers as possible and sent to the Minister of Transport about this blatent 'lack of consultation.' And also a copy to the media. Anyone want to front up and be spokesman?? Needs someone with 'some' knowledge of biker concerns.

Skyryder

And that will do what?

You can try and convince yourselves that your Government is geared to listen to its constituents if you want, but the truth is they don't actually give a hoot.

Turn it into a sensational and short-lived news item however and you might at least get 15 minutes of public support. We don't need a copy to the media we need to make it a media item. The current Government has repeatedly proved it has no respect for its constituents and is unlikely to change that attitude when confronted by 20 or 30 incoherent motorcyclists.

[raster]

*Bangs head on desk*

Based in the UK is a group MAG (Motorcycle Action Group) (http://www.mag-uk.org/index2.html). Now unlike our BRONZ, these guys are well organised, focused, and more to the point. THEY"RE GETTING RESULTS.

They've not only been been not only sucessful in the UK but also against the EU. They release there own press releases, get requested to comment on event be media, and generally provide some balance to the heavy handed wantings of the government.

Unfortunately I don't hold out much hope. This isn't the first time this topic has come up in the 3-odd years I've been on this site, and there has yet to be anything done.

Not much help on the organisation side of things. But my membership money is ready and waiting for the time we have a MAG NZ.

Bonz is always open to any help to get to a similar level as MAG which has a for greater Support network than BRONZ. I have only just joined Bronz and was not aware of MAG but will be getting Some pointers from others around the world doing similar things with better results.

[Ozzie]

Scuse the ignorance, but what is BRONZ?

[Ixion]

Bikers' Rights Organisation NZ

Not MAG by a long way. yet. We're working on it. Need more members with balls. WINJA, where are ya?

http://www.bronz.org.nz/

[raster]

A bunch of biker attempting to make things better on the road for the rest of us.

http://www.bronz.org.nz

THE AIMS OF BRONZ ARE:
To promote road safety through road user education. - education rather than legislation saves lives.

To protect and promote the rights of the motorcyclist to decide his/her own future as a road user.
- let those who ride decide

To promote and protect the general welfare of the motorcycling public.

Ride right ride safe courses are worth their weight in lives.
Can't find the website at this stage.

[raster]

How can I get hold of the report stating that motorcycle sales have gone up but accidents have gone down??

[raster]

Found it:
http://www.rrrs.org.nz/

[Skyryder]

And that will do what?

You can try and convince yourselves that your Government is geared to listen to its constituents if you want, but the truth is they don't actually give a hoot.

Turn it into a sensational and short-lived news item however and you might at least get 15 minutes of public support. We don't need a copy to the media we need to make it a media item. The current Government has repeatedly proved it has no respect for its constituents and is unlikely to change that attitude when confronted by 20 or 30 incoherent motorcyclists.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Any letter is not going to change the way the Ministry has gone about the consultation processs or the reccomomendations that are a result of this process. But at least it will be on record as a protest for any future decisions that the Ministry might make as a result of this current consultation process. One person such as myself will make little difference................but many....................that's votes.

Personaly I think a show of strength might make some politicos sit up and take notice. Maoris know the power of marching feet.

Skyryder

[Ozzie]

I have added the first wave to the calendar, leaving 4pm, please indicate there if you will be coming with us.

If there is going to be a second wave (for after work people), someone start another event there so we can have a list/s of all attendees.

[Lias]

Good turn out from the Auckland crew last night, even if they were fashionably late because of Crashes directions :innocent:

I think all up there were at least 12-15 bikers in attendance.

Me, Wolf, Mental Trousers, KickingZebra, & ZeroIndex from hamilton that I know of, Crashe, Ixion, the Can's from auckland, and another bunch who I didnt get around to talking to and finding out who they were :-)

[Ozzie]

Good turn out from the Auckland crew last night, even if they were fashionably late because of Crashes directions :innocent:

I think all up there were at least 12-15 bikers in attendance.

Me, Wolf, Mental Trousers, KickingZebra, & ZeroIndex from hamilton that I know of, Crashe, Ixion, the Can's from auckland, and another bunch who I didnt get around to talking to and finding out who they were :-)

I was there, as was Patch and Raster from Auckland, we came down with Ixion, Crashe and CaN.

[Lias]

Oh I remember seeing "Patch" on the back of someones leathers but didnt associate it with KB.. Wolf mentioned he came back later after havign to leave very early and spoke to you and Comrade Ixion

[Dadpole]

On a slightly more positive note, The Masterton workshop got a 1/3 page advert in the local paper inviting the public to attend.
Being during the day, I can't attend (busy making my serfs work harder)

[Ozzie]

Please view this thread here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=700111#post700111)