Why not BRONZ?

[Ozzie]

In other threads recently, BRONZ has got a bagging for not being active/visible enough. Is this true?

If not, or even if true, what is behind it? Why the anti BRONZ stuff? Why the criticism?

[Motu]

It's what we do here on KB,our mission in life is to slag off at others....and yet do nothing ourselves.

[WRT]

I'd type a rebuttle, but I cant be arsed.

[James Deuce]

BRONZ are not membership focussed and I've seen little from them in the media (KR articles) that amounted to anything more than low grade mumbling about how silly the Gubmint is.

I'm not happy with the name for a start. Having "Rights" in the title makes me think "Grievance Industry", and paints a picture that motorcylists think that they need special specific rights over and above other road users.

I think that we need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel, look to another organisation that has a successful methodology for becoming part of the solution rather than antagonising those who we need to build support from. Then we need to hitch ourselves to the coat tails of an existing lobby group suchs as (gasp) the AA.

Personally I think that Ulysses would be a better lobby group as they have better National penetration, members who are involved in Government, and members who are a great deal less confronting than some of the people in BRONZ. I've had a bit to do with BRONZ in a previous incarnation, and despite the die back in regional representation over the last 15 years, the attitude of "entitlement" doesn't seem to have dissipated, plus anyone who doesn't slither up and praise them wholeheartedly is an "AH" who can "fuckoff".

The Unionist lingo and belligerent personal attitudes are not really something I'd want to be associated with, particularly in a voluntary capacity.

[Deano]

It's what we do here on KB,our mission in life is to slag off at others....and yet do nothing ourselves.

Mr Cynical - I agree it's hard not to be at times though.

But, not everyone is complacent.

One of the good things about this forum, despite the 'slagging off , is that it raises awareness of the issues that motorcyclists face.

I'm sure the 'workshops' would have had a lot less motorcyclists attending if this forum wasn't here.

So - WHO IS COMING TO THE MASTERTON WORKSHOP ON THE 7TH ?

[Finn]

Write a letter to John Banks. He'd kick some arse and he pissed at the momement. His Harley got nicked!

[Paul in NZ]

Write a letter to John Banks. He'd kick some arse and he pissed at the momement. His Harley got nicked!

How much you want for it bro?

[The Stranger]

In other threads recently, BRONZ has got a bagging for not being active/visible enough. Is this true?


Yeah it is true.
Several from here (myself included) have joined recently and are trying to change that. Unfortunately we are all volunteers and have work, mortgages, families and love to ride too. Always love to have more help.



Why the anti BRONZ stuff? Why the criticism?

It is the old Winston Peters syndrome, he is always at his best when he doesn't have to try and be constructive.
It is easier to sit on the outside knocking than get off your butt and work within to effect the necessary change.

[Hitcher]

Hmmm. Using Ulysses as a hook to do some lobbying and raise public awareness of (real) biker issues makes some sense. As long as this process doesn't become unwieldy because of organisational structural issues. The purpose of this is not to run a democracy, like the Palestinian People's Front (or the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, for that matter).

I can't make Masterton on the 7th but I'm happy to help prep those who are considering this journey.

[Hitcher]

It is easier to sit on the outside knocking than get off your butt and work within to effect the necessary change.
Sometimes. There are other times when a clean slate and no long-established agendas and baggage has some appeal.

[Ozzie]

To take the point of a historically bad rep (please don't read anything into it, it wasn't a slag), add to that the dire need for some action now, is BRONZ not a potential avenue?

Perhaps bolster BRONZ's reputation, and bikers in the process, form alliances (respectful ones) with the likes of AA. Join up rather than compete with Ulysses, AMC and the like.

Old wood, and baggage maybe difficult, a new entity and reinventing the wheel is likely to be as well.

I think a united front, with a well formed and respected political presence is the only way forward. Being beside AA and government types could be seen as an advantage, but having them as our voice runs the risk that is associated with Ministers in general, they will say what they think is important, not what we think is important.

[The Stranger]

BRONZ are not membership focussed and I've seen little from them in the media (KR articles) that amounted to anything more than low grade mumbling about how silly the Gubmint is.

I'm not happy with the name for a start. Having "Rights" in the title makes me think "Grievance Industry", and paints a picture that motorcylists think that they need special specific rights over and above other road users.

I think that we need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel, look to another organisation that has a successful methodology for becoming part of the solution rather than antagonising those who we need to build support from. Then we need to hitch ourselves to the coat tails of an existing lobby group suchs as (gasp) the AA.

Personally I think that Ulysses would be a better lobby group as they have better National penetration, members who are involved in Government, and members who are a great deal less confronting than some of the people in BRONZ. I've had a bit to do with BRONZ in a previous incarnation, and despite the die back in regional representation over the last 15 years, the attitude of "entitlement" doesn't seem to have dissipated, plus anyone who doesn't slither up and praise them wholeheartedly is an "AH" who can "fuckoff".

The Unionist lingo and belligerent personal attitudes are not really something I'd want to be associated with, particularly in a voluntary capacity.


Hey Jim2,
You see my invite to you (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=698918#post698918) Come on, make a change.

[James Deuce]

I'm not interested CaN. But thanks for considering me. As I said I'd rather do than whinge, and BRONZ don't seem to be interested in anything other than confrontation.

[Ozzie]

I'm not interested CaN. But thanks for considering me. As I said I'd rather do than whinge, and BRONZ don't seem to be interested in anything other than confrontation.


With respect Jim2, if there are no BRONZ in Welly, and FA of them active elsewhere, why not pay your $20 and make a difference?

You are in a possition to mold the Wellington arm how you want it, and being in Wellington are the obvious group to deal with the government I would have thought.

What is the alternative? Make a KB political arm? Make another group to co-ordinate the rest of the Biker groups, KB included?

While this sounds a piss take, it truely is not.

I want to see action, I want to be heard, I demand bikers our interests, suggestions and opinions are considered and taken seriously, and, I am prepared to be involved with what ever to make that happen.

I do not however wish to see this fit in with the usual Jo Public response being a whole swag of disjointed random and individual submissions that is absolutely too easy for the government to dismiss.

[Ixion]

Ulysses are not a suitable lobby group fro motorcyclists in general because, by definition, they exclude a very large proportion of motorcyclists. (ie those who are not old).

Also , they are SO old. And conservative. And po-faced.

I think that putting forward an organsiation with an average membership age of about 120 (OK, should not be rude. But they ARE so OLD), is the exact wrong way to go.

We need more young people. Not more old farts.

[BeakerRAT]

I want to see action, I want to be heard, I demand bikers our interests, suggestions and opinions are considered and taken seriously, and, I am prepared to be involved with what ever to make that happen.
I do not however wish to see this fit in with the usual Jo Public response being a whole swag of disjointed random and individual submissions that is absolutely too easy for the government to dismiss.

Yes, therein lies the problem with most lobby type groups. Unless you all have the same agenda, or are willing to bend a little on your individual views - it all falls down. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a personal snipe at you Ozzie or am I saying that BRONZ or similar type groups are wrong in what they are trying to achieve, this is meant in a broader sense. For my 2c worth, I think the only way you may form some type of cohesive group that might gain traction is to keep it simple (the KISS approach). One or two clearly defined issues and objectives.

Good on you for having a go and being passionate in what you believe in.

[The Stranger]

Yes, therein lies the problem with most lobby type groups. Unless you all have the same agenda, or are willing to bend a little on your individual views - it all falls down.

But with all due respect, you have the oppertunity to turn up and set the BRONZ agenda.

[BeakerRAT]

But with all due respect, you have the oppertunity to turn up and set the BRONZ agenda.

True, and I have gone along to a BRONZ meeting to see what it is all about. I have no issue with BRONZ or what they are trying to achieve. My point is that with the current issues 'safe as workshops', it needs to be focussed into one broader issue that everyone can get behind. I've read lots of comments both on this forum and the 'safe as' website, most take on individual views and concerns and carry little weight as a result. Perhaps BRONZ or the like can come up with a common statement or defined issue to combat what the MoT are trying to implement. That way a greater number of people can get behind it and rally a common cause.

And before you say or ask what have I done to help.... I've made a few submissions in an attempt to curb there efforts. Along the lines of undermining their process, rather than attacking every issue they have raised, i.e speed, youth and alcohol or any other issue I may have as an individual.

Clear leadership is required, perhaps BRONZ can display this, and they are probably best equipped to do so.

[James Deuce]

Clear leadership is required, perhaps BRONZ can display this, and they are probably best equipped to do so.

In Auckland and Otago.

[Ozzie]

Clear leadership is required, perhaps BRONZ can display this, and they are probably best equipped to do so.
My sentiments exactly!

Take what you will from my comments, but the sole reason for them is to try and drive a common front, get organised, get coherent, get noticed.

I don't think the approach to date is worthless, I think it is a first step. Let's embrace BRONZ, join up, get an action plan and put into place. If not BRONZ, then someone else. There is not the time to put a new kid on the block.

Join BRONZ, build alliances, get some action.

Ranting and raving, and (no offence) sulking over past mistakes of BRONZ does nothing to address this situation, and a fragmented approach achieves just as little.

So, put up, or shut up! Coarse I know, but going on about it here will do NOTHING!

[Skyryder]

I'm still a bit of an outsider on the BRONZ issue although I tend to go along with J2 general assesments. I am sure that BRONZ have some committed members who do their very best. But to me it seems that BRONZ lacks ability in stratergy and goals. I am referring in particular to the Bus Lane initives by some KB members in which I posted my support for the effort they were prepared to put in. Personaly I think one of the problems is the name: BRONZ. Bikers Rights etc. The name implies that we as bikers have rights over and above other road users and as such leads to a basic weakness when trying to deliver outcomes and goals to the biker fraternity. A case in point was the recent flurry of BRONZ activity over bus lanes. I don't want to get into the pros and cons of this but anyone who takes a sembalnce of notice on transport issues will be aware of the Government's committment to the improvment of the public transport system. No amount of logic, concerning safety, fuel economy or any other reason will change LTNZ's position. Any vehicle using bus lanes is seen as an impediment to the improovement of the nations transport system. Now noone's going to come out and say that but make no mistake that is the reasone why BRONZ will never win that particular battle. But bikers seem to think that they should be exempt...........and while this attitude remains in BRONZ...........they will be going nowhere.

BRONZ needs a national issue that includes 'all' road users and one that they can win.

Skyryder

[Fatjim]

I think the AA could be the best vehicle so to speak. This is because they represent an already very large slice of NZ. If they can be convinced of the MAIN issues, things like driver awareness and road conditions then they will undoubtably have the best chance of getting them changed.

The trouble with the approach of using a "hobbyist" group like Ulysses to present your views is that ultimately they can't be taken seriously, because they are not a serious group themselves.

[candor]

The AA gets some grants from LTNZ. Corrupted as an advocate!
I think a united group even of your own membership which is huge would be taken seriously. If you put together a bullet pointed plan of you priorities for constant repetition at all safeas workshops around trhe country - why not do a poll here with all possibilities to work out your top 5 or 10 say.

They are working by divide (into community area patches) and conquer. So organisation is necessary. You have the numbers to get heard if not listened to.

[candor]

Or another way - could do just as they suggest and "hold workshop of your own" based on (just based on theirs. Then feed it back to website just like they are. Only diff is yours would be on a Natonal scale. So you'd post up the dud questions 1 and 2 here and get (unmatched) answers, collate / organise.
Some work in it but theres a week or 2 to go before the consultation over.
I'm betting no-one is going to go out and run these things except for girl scouts so they'll be all over any content people bring back.

Also Woodman is just a low paid kidult as someone suggested. But - he is feeding back to the 2 top policy makers who are unsettled to say least and watching real close. I got an inside source. With a lot more likely comin on website next few weks we want to keep the posts full of meaty substance so newcomers don't miss main points (IMHO).

It's good having you all over there, am learning a lot from ya'

[The Stranger]

No amount of logic, concerning safety, fuel economy or any other reason will change LTNZ's position. Any vehicle using bus lanes is seen as an impediment to the improovement of the nations transport system. Now noone's going to come out and say that but make no mistake that is the reasone why BRONZ will never win that particular battle. [/B]

Skyryder

Say what?

Sorry I can't see what you are saying here. Not arguing, just can't quite follow it.

[The Stranger]

I think the AA could be the best vehicle so to speak.

Could be, but historically, even very recent history indicates otherwise.

Is a motorcycle an automobile?

[Skyryder]

Say what?

Sorry I can't see what you are saying here. Not arguing, just can't quite follow it.

There's been some comment on here about trying to get the LTNZ to allow bikes to use bus lanes. They have come up with a number of reasons as to why this will not take place. Some I posted in my thread. The bottom line is that the Government is commited to improving the Public Transport. What I am saying is the The LTNZ, no matter what arguement and logic is used, they will fall back on the Government's position. Any traffic in the bus lanes will act as an impediment to the improvement (timetables etc) of the Public Transport. This is a subjective argument and by it's nature is unlikely to be discussed openly by government officials: that is unless it is bought to their attention in which case it will in most likely be denied. They (LTNZ) will/ have used examples of, if they allow motorcycles, they will be accused of favouring one set of road users against another. So by a blanket ban on all vehicles other than busses the LTNZ can not be accused of favourtism/bias etc.

BRONZ need a win. Lobby groups win by doing their homework, and coming up with formulas in which they can justify their arguments, because at the end of the day the politicians have to justify their decisions to the general public. I used the Bus lane as an example of where in my opinion BRONZ get it wrong.

My ideas are

1 BRONZ need a name change. The name carries too much baggage as in failure.
1a BRONZ as an acronym sounds great but Biker Rights implies that bikers should have some kind of rights or priveledges over other road users.

2 There needs to be a Nationall corodination to discuss an issue in which they can raise public awareness not only in the biker community but in communiity as a whole.

3 Whatever issue they decide to raise it must include all road users.

This will ensure

3a The maximum number of participants and supporters
3b The result being that politicians will take more notice
3c The road driving public will benefit as a whole.

4 BRONZ could use any public protest (which should take place so as to gather media attention) as a membership drive.
4a Numbers count in lobby groups.

Contrary to what some think you do need to get some parlimentary support. Without it no matter how logical your arguments' are they will fall on deaf ears.

Beaurocrats only respond to authority. They are essentialy yes men and they only say yes to their masters. Get their masters on side and problems solved.

Not easy but pick the right issue, one that's winnable......................

Skyryder

[oldrider]

Ulysses are not a suitable lobby group fro motorcyclists in general because, by definition, they exclude a very large proportion of motorcyclists. (ie those who are not old).

Also , they are SO old. And conservative. And po-faced.

I think that putting forward an organsiation with an average membership age of about 120 (OK, should not be rude. But they ARE so OLD), is the exact wrong way to go.

We need more young people. Not more old farts.
Being "old" and a member of ULYSSES I actually agree with Ixion but I think BRONZ should seek more backing and support from Ulysses and any other active bike organisations that are out there.
BRONZ should also be hard out enlisting as many young and intelligent bikers as they can into their active ranks.
Thanks CaN and others for all of your recent efforts, I appreciate what you have been doing. Cheers John.

[James Deuce]

Being "old" and a member of ULYSSES I actually agree with Ixion but I think BRONZ should seek more backing and support from Ulysses and any other active bike organisations that are out there.
BRONZ should also be hard out enlisting as many young and intelligent bikers as they can into their active ranks.
Thanks CaN and others for all of your recent efforts, I appreciate what you have been doing. Cheers John.

There aren't very many young motorcyclists. Most motorcyclists in NZ are old enough to be junior Ulysses members.

I'd prefer rational arguments from people with experience to incoherent demands for attention from 12 year old's in a 25 year old's body thanks.

BRONZ doesn't exist outside AUckland. There might be 1 million people concentrated in Auckland, but BRONZ (like the rest of Auckland) is happy to ignore the rest of the country comprising 3 million who actually have the space to enjoy motorcycling.

[James Deuce]

With respect Jim2, if there are no BRONZ in Welly, and FA of them active elsewhere, why not pay your $20 and make a difference?

You are in a possition to mold the Wellington arm how you want it, and being in Wellington are the obvious group to deal with the government I would have thought.


BRONZ in the past suffered from the same problem as Federated Farmers. An organisation purporting to have National representation as a core goal, but in reality they were disorganised independent provincial groups without common goals or even clear organisational communication structures in place.

Pay $20 to BRONZ so I can have a meeting with myself?

BRONZ needs a national executive, a couple of clear issues that they are prepared to enter into dialogue with law makers, and a reason to belong. Most people enjoy the social aspect of motorcycling above all else. BRONZ in the past (and I've seen nothing that demonstrates anything different about the present) demanded unswerving dedication to the "cause" and anyone who was in it for a good time was a slacker. Lecturing and badgering the 98% of your membership who isn't interested in political activism is not a good way to ensure long term support.

Belonging to BRONZ needs to be a positive thing. I understand CaN's frustration but I've had my fill of being called names and shouted at by people from BRONZ and I would much rather put my energy into something that provides people with a positive experience of membership and presents an affable, coherent public face. NZers and NZ Politicians need to see that motorcyclists are people first and foremost, but also people with some good ideas about what comprises a sustainable long term transport plan. Sharing the burden of creating that plan tends to get policy analysts, lawmakers, transport ministers, and the people who design forms on side, because you're sharing their workload and common goals. BRONZ has always struck me as people who want to shout and demand change and then sit back while other people implement.

I might be completely wrong about the current organisation, and all the things I'm talking about may just boil down to my personal attitudes, but it takes a partnership to piss someone off.

[Ozzie]

So what would you say to a physical presence associated with this online one, which is predominately focused on organised rides and enjoyment of the interest, with a political fascet, uniting the interests of Ulysses, BRONZ, AMC and so on?

A union of Motorcycle interest groups if you will?

Not to go hardline, but attempt to make a cooperative relationship with government, AA, ACC, MoT etc?

To ensure we are heard, consulted and considered in the Law making process and all ather ellements associated with prolonging the safety and enjoyment of bikes?

[James Deuce]

Yes. Adversarial relationships with Government only lead to exclusion from the decision making process.

[Ixion]

And subservient relationships with governments ensure you will never be more than a puppet, used and ignored.

How strange also that you should say that, whilst espousing association with Mag, an ACTIVIST group well known for taking the UK government on in direct confrontation? Are you sure you know what MAG is and what it stands for

From the (abominably badly coded ) MAG website:


MAG exists primarily to protect the rights of motorcyclists to enjoy riding without undue interference in the form of excessive legal requirements, particularly where those requirements interfere with the fun and exhilaration of riding motorcycles.

The demo runs and protests that have shaped MAG over thirty years have been useful tools leading MAG to the engagement we now have with authorities and politicians.

So as the 2005 general election looms we must not forget the roots of the megaphone diplomacy that has shaped MAG since 1973.



And an example of MAG direct action, of recent date



Endangered Species – Megaphone Diplomacy

Issued 27th June 2006

The Motorcycle Action Group (MAG UK) is encouraging all motorcyclists to support Saturday's motorcycle demonstration in Birmingham that is aimed at changing the unfair European licensing proposals.

Since the conception of the 3rd European Driving Licence Directive the European Commission and the Council of Ministers have shamelessly ignored the expert opinions of motorcyclists and their representatives and with the directive finally heading to the European Parliament later this year MAG hits the streets with the megaphone diplomacy that has characterised the group since 1973.

MAG says that the hoops and hurdles of the proposed licence regime will discourage thousands from taking up motorcycling.

The proposals will:

Create unacceptable financial barriers to motorcycling without any guarantee of improving motorcycle safety.

Discourage people from taking up motorcycling at a time when the environment is desperately in need of less harmful transport options.

Encourage young riders to go outside the law to ride unrestricted bikes on a restricted licence.

MAG's Director Of Public Affairs Trevor Baird says, "The European Institutions have
tried to wear us down with the long drawn out process but our political lobby continues with
amendments to be presented to the politicians deciding the future of motorcycling."

Represented by the Federation of European Motorcyclists Associations (FEMA), the primary objectives that riders groups are aiming for is that the motorcycle aspects of the directive should be withdrawn or amended substantially to enable a more meaningful directive to be redrafted in full consultation with FEMA and its member organisations.

Philip Bradbourn MEP said, "As a local MEP for Birmingham I am delighted to be part of the event. As a Member of the European Parliament's Transport Committee I have been working extensively with motorcycle groups to ensure that the proposals which are currently very prejudicial to motorcyclists in the UK are at the very least amended to make them more acceptable and failing that I will be trying to persuade colleagues to reject the whole proposal."

MAG calls for all riders to hit the streets and join the demo. Camping facilities are provided at MAG’s Heart of England motorcycle rally. Those wishing to camp should advise the organisers on
0870 7743 543


Ends


Notes for editors

Ride in to the demo with MAG from the Scotland - North West - North East - Yorkshire - Greater London - Southern Regions details at www.network.mag-uk.org/dld/dld5.html

Sign the petition and lobby your MEP at www.mag-uk.org

FEMA 10th Anniversary MEP Ride 2006 Autoworld Museum, Brussels 19th June 2006 - www.network.mag-uk.org/MEPride2006


Issued by

Trevor Baird
Director Of Public Affairs

The UK's Leading Riders' Rights Organisation

www.mag-uk.org

More information or comments contact MAG Public Relations or Public Affairs



Which would seem to demonstrate (pun intended) an approach which meets my definition of adversarial

But, whatever, if it is possible to get enough NZ bikers off their arses and out of the pub to hit the streets for some direct action demos, I'm all for it. Can we take it that you will organise the first one? Put me down as a starter.

I doubt you'll have much joy though. The UK bikers don't seem to be cursed with the same timidity and apathy as their NZ counterparts.

[James Deuce]

OK then. I'm out. I'm not heading down the left wing greasy shouting biker path (again).

[Ixion]

Try the BMF (British Motorcyclists Federation) instead. Suitably right wing and deferential to their betters. Wouldn't say boo to a goose without getting approval from Goose Central first. Like to preen themselves on being big bad bikers. Bit like Ulysses actually.

[Ozzie]

Please view this thread here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=700111#post700111)

[oldrider]

Followed a truck (Unseen but quite fresh) on Saturday for bloody miles.
This was just one truck on this road on Saturday but usually there are multiple trucks going up and down this road and for a bike it gets pretty bad at times.
The rain washes it clean then it all starts again.
If Bikers crash on this sort of stuff, bikes are declared "dangerous", up go the costs of registration, ACC etc, while these guy's get off Scott free.
Bikes can stay on the clear pieces of road but you end up paying more for less road!
Add on all the rest of the road fouling practices of "Industry" and we are getting less and less for more and more cost.
They cant have it both ways, I can cope with the road fouling but I don't see why I should pay for it as well.
Who in our motorcycling world is capable of and interested in doing any thing about it, other than BRONZ?
I don't know, so BRONZ gets my vote of confidence so far. :first: Cheers John.

[scumdog]

Had a few scares with the 'green line' myself John, worse time is if it has dried and then a day or so later theres a light shower - you cant' see the 'green line' and it is ultra-slippery.

Why oh why is there no legislation on it?
I know we have enough rules'n'regulations but this one's a 'must' IMHO.

[oldrider]

Coming home over the Lindis Pass on Wednesday there was an oil streak just as plain as that shit streak in the pic, all the way from the top of the pass to Omarama, of course I didn't have the camera. Damn! John.

[Brian d marge]

Sorry folks but this might seem a bit blunt , but ,, Mag and british biker groups work because we after all are winging poms ..if we dont like something we dont sit around and form committees ,,,

New Zealanders tend to be IMHO passive, and if its alright in my backgarden ,,,

I mean the springbox rugby tour is STILL being talked about , Try poll tax or council tax what ever they call it now... and the tour made people stop and think ...now I am not promoting that ,,but remember the fart tax??? or the tractor up the steps of parli ...conistant and visual pressure by well presented/articulate people

The aim has to be clear and simple WITH NO ABIGUITY
such as ,,MAG/BRONZ/ARM/Ulyssis is an organisation that gives biker a voice in govenment.

If you like to ride then its your responsibility to add wieght to that voice by turning up to those rides/protests etc

or

you cant complain about . revenue grabbing , rego , LTSA ..

IMHO of course

Keep the message clear and simple and actively promote the benifits ....

Stephen

[sunhuntin]

Ulysses are not a suitable lobby group fro motorcyclists in general because, by definition, they exclude a very large proportion of motorcyclists. (ie those who are not old).

Also , they are SO old. And conservative. And po-faced.

I think that putting forward an organsiation with an average membership age of about 120 (OK, should not be rude. But they ARE so OLD), is the exact wrong way to go.

We need more young people. Not more old farts.

was thinking along the same lines, ix. not really a suitable group to "use" id be more inclined to go for the local triumph or HOG groups....more likely triumph though as they dont exclude anyone, by either age or bike.

problem though in your comment about needing more young people to get involved, as i dont know any other person my age who rides who is actually there for anything other than the cool factor. [like that chick that newspaper had who was wearing little more than a helmet] like, they dont see a bike as a way of life, so dont give a crap about things like this. like, id be willing to look into something, but dont have the confidence to the time to do so. would rather leave it to someone who knows what they are doing, and then back them 100%.

[Ozzie]

We are all sayin we've had enough, support who or what or whatever!

But, very few have signed up to BRONZ in the last week, and FA people have responded to my initiative.

Agree? Disagree?

Stand up people! You don't have to be the front runner, i am prepared to be, but what cred do I have standing up and saying I represent me?

Answer....None, just like the level of support I have.

Read my thread, are these some of the passions you have? Help out the newbees, get some benefits, and stand up for our rights as well?

Get behind me, i need your support. I will take it all the way, if i have the support of the biking communitee.

Posting threads here is nothing more than a vent, make your vent count, stand by me, we will be heard!