(Relatively) newbie cornering questions

[RantyDave]

OK, so having just moved from my 250 to a Speed Four I've made a discovery: Riding a sportsbike is like having sex - when you first do it, you're crap. But it's increasingly becoming apparent that like it's carnal metaphor, riding a sportsbike is something you get better at if you get to know you partner a bit better.

It was in this pursuit of interpersonal knowledge that I spent a chunk of this afternoon zooming along the Makara gorge, getting to know my bike better and spending some time concentrating on cornering. It quickly became apparent once I had spent any time on the bike that both going and stopping were trivial, but that in order to corner with any real competence I was going to need to effect some changes to my technique.

The biggest difference between the S4 and my 250 is that the feedback through the handlebars is almost overwhelming. I am aware that this is a good thing, although I think I've now discovered exactly what shitty condition many of Wellington's roads are in and preferred blissful ignorance to be honest. However, this feedback means that the 'extremely delicate countersteer to enter the corner' technique I had down pat simply doesn't work any more. Appreciably less delicate countersteer doesn't seem to work particularly well either and a fair chunk of pressure both down and forwards on the inside bar appears necessary or understeer will ensue.

Or, at least, it did. Riding home after work one day I started wondering if the problem was that my body was bolt upright and I was merely twisting the bike beneath me - causing the bike to complain at length about my shitty riding the only way it knows how. I had a go at shifting my weight towards the inside just a tiny little bit ... and the problem all but went away. Consequently I spent the majority of this afternoon cornering this way - setting up by moving my body physically (say) left on the seat so I can feel my right leg pressing against the scallop in the side of the tank that's presumably there for a reason, before more or less just letting the bike go around the corner. Sure, I need more practice and I found myself today on occasion doing about 30k dangling off the side like some bizarre circus act; and on occasion going into a corner and realising about a third of the way through that this was going to be a trouser filler and I'd better pitch the bike over the old way and just live with it. But I was getting there.

This sounds all good, right? Except that if I'm going about this just completely the wrong way I'd like to know because I'm not keen on developing a habit for cornering wrong, only to have to break it again once someone in the know realises what I'm doing and pisses themselves laughing. I also can't tell (because I'm a spazzer) whether this new glorious technique is only working because the bike remains bolt upright - although I suspect if this were the case that I wouldn't be going round the corner at all.

So I guess my questions are: From the description above, have I taken a step in the right direction or am I just twatting around? Is the "heavy handlebar" thing a known fault that can be remedied with (for example) tyre pressure, or is the bike trying it's best to let me know I'm doing it all wrong? Does anyone have any techniques for visualising what their body is doing, or is it just completely natural for everyone else to just know?

Cheers,
Dave

[bugjuice]

relax, and let it flow..
fluididity is your friend

[merv]

You got your tyre pressures right or are you telling me the S4 steers like a pig? Sounds like more air is needed or the S4 has a serious case of handling problems sounding a bit like Skunk was describing the handling of his ZRX11.

The bikes I have just go around corners like they ought to no matter how much I dick around on them.

[trumpy]

The S4's are renowned for their handling...this is one bike you don't have to fight with.
They do like you to have your weight foward when the going gets twisty though. I have a flat bar conversion kit on mine and I still have to lean well over the tank in the twistys. When I am riding properly and actually moving my somewhat rotund form around the bike (...rare..) bar pressure required is finger light. If I am being lazy and leaning on the bars the bike does not respond as well and requires a firm push/pull.
I am no expert (watch me ride!) but as Bugjuice says "relax and let it flow", on the rare occasions I manage to do this it really does flow and effortlessly so.

[James Deuce]

You're not looking through the corner, or you're not looking far enough through the corner, one of the two.

As Buggy says you need to relax, but to do that it helps if you know where you are going.

You don't need to move on the seat either. Dropping your inside shoulder and pointing it at the apex will have the same effect, without potentially upsetting the bike by putting unnecessary inputs through the bars. I've seen a lot of people use the bars as levers when shifting their weight and it really does upset the bike. If you are going to hang off, even only a little bit, use your legs. Try and keep the body moving separate from your arms.

Make sure you keep your eyes level with the horizon too. It helps your balance tremendously and stops your body from telling you that you are going to fall over, hence the sitting upright and throwing the bike down you were talking about.

[SwanTiger]

Don't do this.

[jeremysprite]

theres a huge thread on here, by korea, about cornering, its really good. got some cool vids to go along with it. [URL="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=18611"]

[limbimtimwim]

Perhaps you are mistaking 'heavy bike' for 'heavy handlebars'. I don't recall ever really noticed the weight of a bikes handlebars. They don't consciously factor in my mind relating to controlling the bike at all, which seems totally insane, but there you go.

It could also have the wrong tyres. I had a too tall profile front tyre on my 400, and I when I tried to go quick, I would run wide. I put correct profile on, and a far more suitable model of tyre, and I swear I never have unintentionally run wide again on that bike since.

If I were to get on my friends 250 and ride that for an hour and then get on my 750 would it feel like a heavy whale.

Also, give it time!! You can't expect to just jump on this other bike and be 'good' at it right away. I know I totally suck at 'GSXR' right now, and quite frankly it pisses me off. But remember I it took time to progress from speaking 'VTR' to 'RVF' too. And, after a few months, me and RVF were on very intimate speaking terms indeed.

My advice is like Jim2's and Bugjuice's; relax, look where you want to go and don't 'try' too hard. Just let it happen in time.

[Zapf]

body steering is good. But you need to brace yourself on your bike using the right anchor points. Handle bars are the wrong brace points.

Your seat / tank / foot pegs are a few of the better ones.

[sels1]

Congrats on the new bike - good choice. Dont try to over-analyse, a bigger bike takes a little getting used to . Spend some time on it and you will start to get the feel for it.
Have you joined RAT?

[SuperDave]

Had similar issues when I first got the 600 and it turned out that the tyre pressures were way too low and the tyres themselves where fucked and squared off. A new set of tyres and correct pressures made all the difference and it handles amazingly. I'd say check your pressures and tyres.

[Korea]

Secure your main pivot point; grip the bike with your outside leg - that means, put pressure on your outside peg.
Make sure that your grip on the bars is loose enough that you can flap your elbows. Don't use the bars to 'hold yourself up'; they're for stearing only.
Consciously relax your outer arm and push your inside handlebar to countersteer into the corner.
Do these properly and even a Goldwing with seized steering head bearings will be on its ear.

[aff-man]

Decent tyres and correct pressures would help.

Also I'd check your settings... My 600 when I got it had the preload wound all the way down. That made life a little interesting. Also fork height etc etc etc. So you can mess around with them if you have a bit of knowledge.

As to hanging off like a larry, there is a reason the sperbike guys do it. I do it but it's not for knee down action. In fact I tuck my knoee up against the fairing and "swivel" around the tank. I am not to sure on the exact reasons it helps but it keeps the bike more upright and more stable in the corners. Being a light fella any small bump jumps me off the seat/moves the bike around so this method works for me.

Don't worry about learning bad habits (unless you're running wide and cocking up corners the whole time) just find something that feels comfortable and allows you to go a bit quicker without feeling like you are fighting the bike.

[Masterchop]

Before you get to worried about your riding check your tyres (as some others have said) worn front tyre and even rear tyre will give the problems you describe.
When the front tyre has incorrect pressure or has started to get squared off
they feel real bad.
Sort this stuff and then see how your riding is going.

[RantyDave]

Sorted, tyre pressures were way off. Don't know why I didn't check this first (I had already reset suspension to the factory settings).

I measured the back ... 35. I measured the front ... 13. Really. I did it three times and got the same answer. Put some air in it, problem goes away. Completely new bike. Machine goes where you think it to go. Obviously I'm back at the bottom of the learning curve, but the squidgy, heavy, and slightly trampoline'y front end is now history.

I can't believe I didn't do that first. What a muppet.

Advice is, however, gratefully received and will be stored in the back of my head for further lessons.

Thanks,
Dave

EDIT: BTW, relaxation ... flappy arms etc. came really easily once actually using effort became unnecessary. Eyes up and further round the corner helped a lot today as well. Oh, and no wrist pain whatsoever.

[merv]

No worries I asked early on if you'd got the tyre pressures right so all fixed and it doesn't handle like a pig (that was the other likely reason but others assured me the S4 isn't that bad).

[merv]

Geez 13 psi on the front and it should be about 36 I guess - it aint a trail bike Dave so keep the air to it.

[Zapf]

Sorted, tyre pressures were way off. Don't know why I didn't check this first (I had already reset suspension to the factory settings).

I measured the back ... 35. I measured the front ... 13. Really. I did it three times and got the same answer. Put some air in it, problem goes away. Completely new bike. Machine goes where you think it to go. Obviously I'm back at the bottom of the learning curve, but the squidgy, heavy, and slightly trampoline'y front end is now history.

I can't believe I didn't do that first. What a muppet.

Advice is, however, gratefully received and will be stored in the back of my head for further lessons.

Thanks,
Dave

EDIT: BTW, relaxation ... flappy arms etc. came really easily once actually using effort became unnecessary. Eyes up and further round the corner helped a lot today as well. Oh, and no wrist pain whatsoever.

yakes... 13 psi front... try not to do that again plz. Its down right dangrous :)

[Hitcher]

13 psi? You're lucky you didn't roll something off the rim. You didn't buy the Triumph off ANZA, by any chance?

[RantyDave]

yakes... 13 psi front... try not to do that again plz. Its down right dangrous :)
Yeah, I know. As soon as I realised that was the real number I was off to the local servo ... gently. I'll be checking the tyre a tad more often from now on.

Dave

[Edbear]

Really. I did it three times and got the same answer.



Whew...! Bet that was a relief...:innocent: So did I, she said, "Do better next time!":wait:

[sels1]

Hey Dave, was that you going round by Wgtn airport midday Sunday?....I saw ya....

[RantyDave]

About lunchtime? Quite probably. I was returning from the aborted (for me) run up to Castle Point.

[Devil]

Glad you got it sorted. The Speed Four is a great handling bike, very light, very nimble and well sprung. Get someone to set the suspension up for you, it's fully adjustable and it'll feel like a new bike when its right.

As Trumpy mentioned, when the roads get tighter, you need to keep your weight forward.
Pointing your shoulder into the corner will make everything happen just right. You dont need to shift your bum untill you're really going for it. If you have to shift your bum even on medium corners, then chances are you need to get your suspension sorted.

You need to practice being smooth and fluid with your motions. The S4 isn't a beginners bike, it'll do exactly what you tell it, if you tell it wrong you can end up scaring the the living shit out of yourself.