Hamilton Safe As - 27-07-2006

[Ozzie]

Well been and gone.

It was a good turn out of KBers awsome to see (not sure of the exact number, but upwards of 10).

Not sure how positive the experience was, Ixion was definately seen and heard, don't think he has many friends in the Hamilton Police, but, what they hey?

We, if nothing else got some valuable information about how to act regarding posting submissions and (possibly) being taken seriously, and we definately got some good points across.

I fear we possibly made a bit of a mockery of ourselves tonight and weren't credible, possibly as we weren't as organised as we could have been (such short notice, and it potentially wasn't the right forum to present our case).

I will follow up on the info we have, and make further posts so that the biking community can be heard and taken seriously in what could be a major decision for us.

[ZeroIndex]

Well been and gone.

It was a good turn out of KBers awsome to see (not sure of the exact number, but upwards of 10).

Not sure how positive the experience was, Ixion was definately seen and heard, don't think he has many friends in the Hamilton Police, but, what they hey?

We, if nothing else got some valuable information about how to act regarding posting submissions and (possibly) being taken seriously, and we definately got some good points across.

I fear we possibly made a bit of a mockery of ourselves tonight and weren't credible, possibly as we weren't as organised as we could have been (such short notice, and it potentially wasn't the right forum to present our case).

I will follow up on the info we have, and make further posts so that the biking community can be heard and taken seriously in what could be a major decision for us.
I blame them for our disorganized presense.. they shoulda given more publicity to the meeting.. but seriously, what was up with that "stakeholders" guy? my Rego (which pays for roads) is up to date, therefore everyone in current possesion of a Rego is a stakeholder? I'm not one for violence, but I seriously woulda enjoyed seing that guy take a square kick to the groin..

PS. Crashe: looks like you almost didn't make the Caltex roundabout (on Te Rapa Straight).. Aucklanders shouldn't try keep up with me on that roundabout (especially on a cruiser).. I'm a master at that roundabout (I wish I was 'that good' at all corners..) <-- I've spent endless amounts of time going around that roundabout at night (on the Kinetic) at about 50 - 60km/h (going all the way round, not just straight through)

but yeah, as an ending note, was good to see all the KiwiBikers there (some that I've met before, and others that I haven't), but yeah.. it was good..

hehe, I think I get my bike back tomorrow :D YIPPEE!!

[crashe]

What you talking about...... I did that roundabout JUST fine....:nya:

[Ixion]

Pretty much acgieved all that could be expected of such a meeting. Spolit the game plan, they can't report that public meetings endorsed their schemes. Which is what we set out to do.

And after my shot across their bows they'll not (I think) have the nerve to massage the message much on their forum.


which we need to own folks, so post away.

[candor]

I'm nosey. What happened? Did they try to call you non stakeholders:bye:
Now I am worried... all your suspicions seem way more than valid, cos looking at Manawatu feedback only 15 out of 44 suggested "solutions" were thinking outside the square they have set!

And it's all about (vomit) speeeeeeeed. It could be that much increased traffic volume is predicted up to 2020. I want to write really hostile feedback on the website like that our problems will be solved when they get lobotomies. My fingers are twitchin to get me barred. To paint over billboards.

Think I'll travel up to the Hstgs one to have a stir. I think my stirring at Welly got Police Minister speech cancelled so that was encouraging. I handed out over the top worryingly radical pamphlets when she was due that said the road toll is falsified etc etc.

Next move is a parliament protest. Any advice on best timing people - now so can influence those heading into workshops? Or at end when they announce their BS findings? Easier now as more cover of darkness in a.m. to prepare?

I despise this Govt. It is quite open about brainwashing - does surveys to check its propagandists success even. They now got 50% thinking speed is NZs greatest enemy and non grans should hang out to dry. Aaaaaarrrrggggh

[Ixion]

Yep. I took them to task about keeping the thing a secret , and one old buzzard just about wet his incontinence nappy spluttering that we weren't supposed to be there at all and it was only for invited stakeholders.

MoT binty seemed OK with us being there though.

[ZeroIndex]

What you talking about...... I did that roundabout JUST fine....:nya:
you left the left-hand-side of the roundabout past the left-hand-paintline.. (not sure if that make sense)..

[candor]

That proves they specifically meant to exclude you - bikers I mean. I distinctly remember them saying at the Welly opening it was for "stakeholders and... the public" (public was muttered). They did try to vet it tho as u were asked to register both before and at event.

I remember the organiser LTNZ policy maker Alison talking to herself - she said (cos there were 150 odd) "ohhh only 85 registered!" They are being shy about answering some rather tricky Q's posed on the website. Seems they ae norw consciously conducting charade consultations - this govt is too fascist. A pseudodemocracy is what it is.

My "co-conspirators" are holding back a bit - we have some BAD material to release on site soon. But we don't want them panicced into removing site as its a great tool for re-educating the "stakeholders" eh!

[John Banks]

From that meeting, I have pretty much taken away a plan of attack. What I would like to do is come up as a cohesive group of bikers a succinct set of points that we would like done, and hammer away at some select people so that they know we mean business. The workshop was bollocks. They will have come away with the idea that bikers as a group are not happy and are getting vocal, and we can pat ourselves on the back for that (and especially Ixion :innocent: ) - but that's it, none of our views will go any further.
But I think the best way to get our message across is to come up with a cohesive argument between us (disjointed statements and novel long wishlists will not help) and start pounding that into them until we get a cohesive answer.

[ZeroIndex]

From that meeting, I have pretty much taken away a plan of attack. What I would like to do is come up as a cohesive group of bikers a succinct set of points that we would like done, and hammer away at some select people so that they know we mean business. The workshop was bollocks. They will have come away with the idea that bikers as a group are not happy and are getting vocal, and we can pat ourselves on the back for that (and especially Ixion :innocent: ) - but that's it, none of our views will go any further.
But I think the best way to get our message across is to come up with a cohesive argument between us (disjointed statements and novel long wishlists will not help) and start pounding that into them until we get a cohesive answer.
..not just Ixion.. Crashe too.. good on ya for having a go at that 'stakeholders' guy.. haha, some police dude had to speak up (break up what would've been some kinda amusing one-sided fight :D), and say "let's move onto something else :nono: " hehehe, that was brilliant..

PS. yes, I know I already mentioned this, but it was brilliant.. GO CRASHE!!

[What?]

Yep. I took them to task about keeping the thing a secret , and one old buzzard just about wet his incontinence nappy spluttering that we weren't supposed to be there at all and it was only for invited stakeholders.

MoT binty seemed OK with us being there though.
Hah!
And from their own website:

The National Road Safety Committee is running a series of “pre-policy” engagement workshops with stakeholders and the community prior to providing Government with policy proposals to complete implementation of the Government’s Road Safety to 2010 strategy.

So who is going to the Whakatane session? I'm thinking I might just make the effort.

[Waylander]

So who is going to the Whakatane session? I'm thinking I might just make the effort.
When is that one? I might have to try to make it so I don't miss out again. Sounds like they had fun the ones that went.

[What?]

Whakatane, Aug 10, 5pm.

[Squeak the Rat]

Thanks guys for making the effort to get there and fly the flag. Hopefully some more comments will be posted about your learnings...

Just to clarify though, do you believe it is worth attending the other workshops or is it a waste of time? If so, I'm going to try and get next friday off to go to the Whangarei one, and advice would be welcomed....

[Ixion]

From that meeting, I have pretty much taken away a plan of attack. What I would like to do is come up as a cohesive group of bikers a succinct set of points that we would like done, and hammer away at some select people so that they know we mean business. The workshop was bollocks. They will have come away with the idea that bikers as a group are not happy and are getting vocal, and we can pat ourselves on the back for that (and especially Ixion :innocent: ) - but that's it, none of our views will go any further.
But I think the best way to get our message across is to come up with a cohesive argument between us (disjointed statements and novel long wishlists will not help) and start pounding that into them until we get a cohesive answer.

That's not really what these worskhops are about .II know that's what they LOOK like, but the reality is different.

These are "soundings". The Ministry , having decided they want 80kph speed limit, speed camera demerits , power to weight limits etc etc, go see the Minister, and say "Get all this passed into law please Minister". The Minister however (and Harry Duynhoven is both sensible and shrewd) says "hang on, hang on, this looks like it might be pretty unpopular. I want to get reelected".So, Sir Humphrey says "Yes, Minister.Well, we'll go and consult the community and see if there is support for these initiatives and gauge opposition". And tells the troops to organise some "public" meetings, but make sure none of the actual public attend them. Get the rubber stamp tick off from the invited stooges, tell the Minister that there were no objections, the public are all in favour. Sorted.

But , as far as Hamilton goes anyway, we've stuffed that scheme up. The "public" (ie us) was patently strongly opposed. And vociferous. Just the thing the Minister was nervous about.

They don't actually want any ideas (I know they talk about that, but it's just window dressing). Or at any rate, only want ideas that agree with their preset agenda. So I'm afraid there is no hope of getting anything "done" (unless it is something that the Police and the bureacrats are already in favour of - power restrictions on cages might have a chance) . But what we may hope for is getting things "stopped".

EDIT:.It is still good to put ideas to them, though. Becuase that prevents them being able to claim that we are just disruptive. But don't expect anything to happen with them.

[beyond]

I personally get really pissed off with the powers that be, trying to screw everyones life up by deciding what is best for us. I crawled out of my nappies when I was around 2 and don't need some arse wiping, sniffling beaurocrat telling the people that we should wrap up in cotton wool and never go outside in case we get hurt.

Democracy is a by word in this day and age. When a bunch of parasites can suck us dry on taxes and then tell us what to do cos they thinks it's best for us, when they are a small minority, contributing nothing to the economy, sucks big time.

Then they pass laws discreetly as they can, that affect us all, that are stupid, not worth the paper they are written on and then proceed to tax us even more when those dum laws are broken in anyway.

Next year we will need a licence to wipe our own arses, will have to replace every engine over 125cc with a muted lawnmower engine and then of course the road statistics will drop to zero and we can all live happliy ever after, sucking our pacifiers.

I'll shut up now. :( :bye:

[The Stranger]

I came away from it quite positive.

I feel it was a Shame there were few young people (under 20) to defend themselves though, and if they were serious about involving the community they have a big flaw right there.

Obviously the meeting was stacked, but the bikers out numbered the police(6) and every other group perhaps we were the least organised, due to time constraints, but we certainly got the chance to have our say.

Would have loved to have been seated at the Police table, could have had some great arguments there.

I really feel that you guys (KB) should attend in your area if at all possible, I see no downside. Suggestions are put forward on a table by table basis. Plant 2 bikers on each table and dig in if you don't agree.

A challenge to Norflanders - Come on you guys we had 10 there, you guys have more time to organise you got to beat that.

[Ixion]

Yes, it really is important that you young guys, and chicks, get into it. You're being lined up for a king hit, and you need to make your views heard.

[The Stranger]

Yes, it really is important that you young guys, and chicks, get into it. You're being lined up for a king hit, and you need to make your views heard.

Yes the young are about to be sacrificed in the name of the road toll.

Better you than me, but hey you may want to do something about it.

[Ixion]

Oh, and in this context young means under 25

[The Pastor]

I think i'll try and get to the whagas meeting, Just got to sort out gas money...


Good effort to all who went to the hammyhole meeting. I agree with Ixion on it just being an attempt to say "everyone likes that idea" and that your ideas will fall on deaf ears.

What we need is a Kiwibiker party in parlament! Renegade master for PM! haha

[Ozzie]

Having slept on it, I think I am quite positive about the whole thing.

We did some ranting, and some raving, and were noticed, and question time got cut short because the questions Ixion, Crashe, myself and a select few others were too hard and destracted from the points that they (the organisers) made.

I think we should continue to attend these workshops, it makes no harm, and demonstrates at the very least that we are interested parties, we demand to be taken seriously, and that we are taking a mature step towards contributing rather than just rubishing their plans.

The main point I would like to make is this; Research and make an organised and coherant impact on the workshop. We were limited by time, the rest of you are not.

The questions they asked for comment on are the same as on the site, speed, drink and young people. These cannot be avoided due to the staged nature of the event, however there is an "or anything else" component, which needs to be maximised.

Each group has a speaker that stands up and states the main points, make sure the speaker is one of us, and the main point is NOT in the 3 topics they suggest, but rather in the "Anything Else Group".

To assist, those willing to go to the other events, go to the website, download the booklet and actually read it. There is plenty of ammo in there to use their own info to highlight the fact they are not focussed on the real issue. For example, yes young people are over represented in the statistics, however, it is not the young responsible law abiding types. In speed related deaths, and drink related deaths, the bigest demographics represented is Disqualified drivers / never licenced drivers (and restricted drivers, sorry CaN). The emphasis needs to be on ensuring those who should not be on the road are in fact not on the road, this would more than halve the toll.

Any initiative that involves increased use of demerits over financial penalty or criminal charges is categorically flawed, reason, most of the people dieing and killing us don't have a freakin license, so what difference is demerits going to make?

With my group, I found the best way to railroad their views was to agree with some of them, encourage, and ensure my point was made, and they endorsed it.

Anyway, good luck to those who wish to attend. All those that wish for this not to be the end, lets all join hands, perhaps join and assist BRONZ to get it right, quit contradicting and work together in an organised fashion.

CaN, can you please email me joining info for BRONZ, I will PM my email address.

:rockon:

Thoughts?

[Ixion]

A comment on the future process.

Once this round of "consultation" is over, the Ministry will put their heads together and decide what they politically get away with -ie how far they can go before stirring up an unacceptable level of public opposition.Based on much noise their "suggestions" have generated at this stage Which is why we need to impess on them that the ideas we oppose WILL generate much public opposition.Technically, this is "pre policy" consultation - they're sounding out public opinion BEFORE putting policy proposals forward .


Then, they will go into ANOTHER round of public consultation on the actual policies ,( which are based on the above assessment of what they can get away with). THAT round is when we want to present reasoned argument and debate.

At this stage the important thing to do is to make a BIG noise.

Incidentally GET WRITING TO THE MINISTER. Bypass the whole process and go striaght to the top.

[Mental Trousers]

It was worth attending just to hear some of what they were thinking. We had Dave Cliff, top traffic cop in the country at our table and the impression he got that we don't all rant and rave!!! The ranting is definitely a good thing, don't get me wrong. It shows we're passionate and that they can't hide these meetings.

These are the points that people should be pushing hard

they are still stuck on speed rather than trying to minimize ALL of the factors that contribute to accidents
fuck reducing the open road speed. No way, no how.
they were very keen on alternatives to fines, ie demerits. This is good (disagree with Ozzie here as unlicensed etc are a seperate issue)
getting drivers that shouldn't be out there off the road. A big one
stats show increasing skill levels (in cars it's the opposite on bikes) doesn't not significantly reduce the road toll whereas changing attitudes does
a merit points system, not just demerits
change the idea that a drivers licence is a right, not a privilege


The workshop itself pretty much was bollocks though. I don't see how individual workshops are going to influence anything, but hammering those points and others at certain key people *may* influence their thinking if the same things keep recurring. Whether they'll actually do anything about it is a different matter. Despite that, I actually felt it was fairly positive mainly cos of what I was hearing from Dave Cliff.

I missed the end but it sounds like it got shut down when they were continually attacked about no notice about the workshops, what are the workshops meant to be achieving etc. So they are pretty sensitive about these things. But remember, getting a meeting shut down doesn't actually achieve anything.


Noel raised a good point. Get the young ones along cos they're really being lined up for a shafting. The only one I saw under about 25 was Christine. A couple of others turned up late, probably too late to have any input though.

[John Banks]

They don't actually want any ideas (I know they talk about that, but it's just window dressing). Or at any rate, only want ideas that agree with their preset agenda. So I'm afraid there is no hope of getting anything "done" (unless it is something that the Police and the bureacrats are already in favour of - power restrictions on cages might have a chance) . But what we may hope for is getting things "stopped".

EDIT:.It is still good to put ideas to them, though. Becuase that prevents them being able to claim that we are just disruptive. But don't expect anything to happen with them.

I don't expect too much to come from it in the area of policy, but they may "throw us a bone": Get rid of the 70kph learner limit, something small so that they can say "Look, we listened - we did *insert bugger all thing here*". Plus it's a lot easier to ignore ten or so loonies ranting and raving at one meeting than it is to ignore a thousand or so loonies sending the same message over and over.

[The Pastor]

a merit points system, not just demerits





Please explain this a little bit more.

[Mental Trousers]

Earn merit points by doing training courses or some such. Get enough you get a cheaper registration fee or something similar. Get a ticket, you lose that and go back to paying the full fee again.

Ixion said it should be used to offset demerit points, but that aint gonna happen. Collect enough points so you can get off a ticket for doing 200kph ....... won't happen.

[Ozzie]

Earn merit points by doing training courses or some such. Get enough you get a cheaper registration fee or something similar. Get a ticket, you lose that and go back to paying the full fee again.

Ixion said it should be used to offset demerit points, but that aint gonna happen. Collect enough points so you can get off a ticket for doing 200kph ....... won't happen.

I agree, good offsetting bad, won't happen, but, in NSW they have a gold license. If you don't get a traffic infringement for 5 years, you get a gold license, it lasts 10 years (or until you get booked) and is half the price of a normal license. Licenses are more expensive over there, perhaps it could work on rego here, like a discount on ACC premium.

[The Stranger]

I agree, good offsetting bad, won't happen

Push it though.
The best way to educate is reward and punishment, the next is reward only the the least effective is punisment alone.

Now what do we do, use punishment alone.
Add in a reward system and you take it from least effective to most effective.

Push for the merit points to offset demerit points, hell make them tradable and give them some real value. You could acrue merit points also by having a clean license, say you get 2 points a year for each year you are clean.

[Ozzie]

Isn't that how it works now?

A demerit falls off after a certain amount of time?

I think the biggest problem with "Good" points being used to offset bad, then what, you give way to a cop 5 times, puts you in credit so you can get off a speeding fine, drunk driving, or killing someone?

I agree in principal, but don't like the idea of the two being connected.

My opinion, will stop now.

[The Stranger]

Isn't that how it works now?

A demerit falls off after a certain amount of time?

I think the biggest problem with "Good" points being used to offset bad, then what, you give way to a cop 5 times, puts you in credit so you can get off a speeding fine, drunk driving, or killing someone?

I agree in principal, but don't like the idea of the two being connected.

My opinion, will stop now.

Man, your opinions are greatly appreciated, don't stop.

I am just looking for a way to offer/implement a reward system with some real value to it. If the value is not significant then I feel it will be ignored.

Same thing happens with the punishment system. If it is of little consequence people just ignore it.

But as I see it I would rather they increase the positive than increase the negative.

[sAsLEX]

Oh, and in this context young means under 25

So what they going to take my license away!? (ie please elaborate on how the plan to do over us young people? ) Fuck me I joined the Defence force at 17 and could quite rightly of been sent to war with a rifle a pistol to defend this country yet they want to toughen up laws to make driving hard for young people yet they still are pleased to ship us off to defend the country!?

I mean I have mates who drive around 600 million dollar warships that aint 25, I think the focus on age is wrong, young people can drive it aint exactly the hardest thing about and alot of young people are mature enough to handle the responsibility that goes with it. Sadly as is often the case, few are ruining it for many!

[Squeak the Rat]

Man, your opinions are greatly appreciated, don't stop.

I am just looking for a way to offer/implement a reward system with some real value to it. If the value is not significant then I feel it will be ignored.

Same thing happens with the punishment system. If it is of little consequence people just ignore it.

But as I see it I would rather they increase the positive than increase the negative.
Much like the insurance these days....you don't lose your no-claims bonus if you make a claim if you've been claim free for so many years.... Prevents me claiming for stupid things...

Trouble is they will argue that having merit points will encourage you to speed as you know you will get away with it..... How could this be counter-argued?

[Squeak the Rat]

So what they going to take my license away!? (ie please elaborate on how the plan to do over us young people? )
New learners not able to get their learners licence until 17 or older.

Or, how about this:

Restrictions on engine size based on age (ie 25) as well as experience. No 600cc (or even 400cc) sports bike until your 26.....

Or, how about this:

ACC fees relative to representation in injury stats. Your ACC fees go up on your rego, once for being a biker and again for being young.

Enough?

That's why we need to fight this. It's for a 2010 strategy. What gets decided NOW gets implemented over the next few years. Come to the meetings, post on the website (the easy-as one), email the minister etc etc etc.....

[John Banks]

I like the idea of having people with clean licences paying less on their rego - the less dangerous, the less ACC fees you should have to pay. The only problem is then someone with a 'gold' or whatever licence can go around buying all his mates regos, so something would have to be done about that.
As for offsetting merit points against demerit points, I don't think that rewarding good behaivour with bad will go down very well.

[Ozzie]

Man, your opinions are greatly appreciated, don't stop.

I am just looking for a way to offer/implement a reward system with some real value to it. If the value is not significant then I feel it will be ignored.

Same thing happens with the punishment system. If it is of little consequence people just ignore it.

But as I see it I would rather they increase the positive than increase the negative.

True enough.

Biggest flaw in the whole merit / demerit thing is that most of the little F*ckers that are killing/dieing don't have a license anyway, so it will have no impact, other than for those of us that have rego, and a license and are generally law abiding.

Now not to say none of us cause or die in these sorts of statistical groupings, but if you look at the tables, it is rarely fully licensed drivers

So, we need to get the unlicensed off the roads, and better police/improve the skills and education of the learners and restricted (with the obvious except of N).

[Ozzie]

ACC fees relative to representation in injury stats. Your ACC fees go up on your rego, once for being a biker and again for being young.

Have a look here (http://www.safeas.govt.nz/smf/index.php?topic=101.0), and vote.

ACC is over charged to us, I think it should be on an individual basis, the same as any other insurance.

[Ozzie]

I like the idea of having people with clean licences paying less on their rego - the less dangerous, the less ACC fees you should have to pay. The only problem is then someone with a 'gold' or whatever licence can go around buying all his mates regos, so something would have to be done about that.
As for offsetting merit points against demerit points, I don't think that rewarding good behaivour with bad will go down very well.

There is always a work around that some folk will employ, but I tell you, if I got a gold license for not speeding, registered my mates car, he sped through a speed camera, and I got pinged and lost my gold status, I'd be pretty pissed.

[Ozzie]

We should get this thread moved before any red rep starts flowing for it being in the wrong place.

How do we do that?

[The Stranger]

Much like the insurance these days....you don't lose your no-claims bonus if you make a claim if you've been claim free for so many years.... Prevents me claiming for stupid things...


Exactly, there comes a point where you weigh up the value and the insurance companies are obviously finding benefit in finding that point now, as you are.



Trouble is they will argue that having merit points will encourage you to speed as you know you will get away with it..... How could this be counter-argued?

My counter would be a flat no.
It is an attitude change we are after. If I have amassed 20 demerit points by being clean for say 10 yrs (don't forget I got older and wiser during this time too) I am not going to just say oh the hell with it lets go blow it. I will be in a pattern by now, I am likely to transgress, but not go ape.

So when I get a ticket for towing my boat trailer at 93kmh (real world example, fuck I am so bad) I can at least get some satisfaction.

[Squeak the Rat]

Good logic CaN. I'm just concerned that logic isn't the MoT's bag!


We should get this thread moved before any red rep starts flowing for it being in the wrong place.
More to the point, it's probably off the radar for every one who isn't still interested anyway.

[sAsLEX]

I like the idea of having people with clean licences paying less on their rego - the less dangerous, the less ACC fees you should have to pay.

Why?

Does alot of points mean you cost more to ACC? No.

Does speeding, according to govt, actually result in increased ACC costs? No.


Being old does increase your danger to others, but are they going to incrementally increase the rego as your age increases and your reflexes go down?

[Squeak the Rat]

Why?

Does alot of points mean you cost more to ACC? No.
Yes in a risk perspective, you have proven you break the law more often and therefore are more of a safety risk. Obviously this would have to assume that risky driving was targeted, not the current 111kph thinking.


Does speeding, according to govt, actually result in increased ACC costs? No.Yes it does. The bigger the speed the bigger the mess, according to the govt.


Being old does increase your danger to others, but are they going to incrementally increase the rego as your age increases and your reflexes go down?
Stats show it's the young that are the problem. Stats do not show old drivers anywhere near as dangerous as young hooligans....

[Ozzie]

Why?

Does alot of points mean you cost more to ACC? No.

Does speeding, according to govt, actually result in increased ACC costs? No.


Being old does increase your danger to others, but are they going to incrementally increase the rego as your age increases and your reflexes go down?

I think the points system relative to ACC costs should remain as it is, ie. no impact.

However, you should start off on a common low charge for registration, which will increase in cost for each injury or death related accident you are the "Cause" of.

It should work as a third party personal insurance (NSW Pink Slip), compulsary for rego (like the WOF), and like other vehicle insurance, you must name other drivers of the vehicle (mass penalty for failing to disclose).

[Ozzie]

Stats show it's the young that are the problem. Stats do not show old drivers anywhere near as dangerous as young hooligans....

Actually, the two largest contibuting age groups are the 15 - 25 year, and 60 +, so in effect the young and dumb and the old and stupid are being subsidised by the rest (if you take those at risk of injury should pay vote).

I think that whole approach sucks the kumera, more peds get killed than bikers, how is ACC being charged to them.....Maybe we should introduce sneaker registration.....

I know that is silling, but the whole thing stinks more than the average biker boots.

[sAsLEX]

I think that whole approach sucks the kumera, more peds get killed than bikers, how is ACC being charged to them.....Maybe we should introduce sneaker registration.....



more injuries come from the Horse park at woodhil than the bike park, and neither of them pay ACC levies, why do we have to pay extra?

[Ozzie]

Exactly my point.

ACC pays for many things, not just road accidents.

Add to that, every other insurance rates your fee on the risk you pose to the policy ie. if a claim for insurance is made against me (being that someone else does as a result of my actions), then my premium goes up, not the person I hit, or the next person I could hit.

[Ozzie]

One time only offer:

Get a pair of Reebok Runners for $800, including personalised plate!

Terms and conditions:

* Runners are road use registered.
* Plates can be transfered at the end of the servicable life of your runners.
* Plates are owned by ACC, in the event of your death, they will be returned to ACC (foot removal costs may apply).
* Price includes:
- runners $20.00
- custom plates $30.00
- registration $50.00
- ACC $600.00
- MoT Admin $100.00

:motu:

[carver]

i had warning of this last week, cause im connected with the council, i had no idea for what it really was, but how did it go?

[Ozzie]

i had warning of this last week, cause im connected with the council, i had no idea for what it really was, but how did it go?

Not to be dismissive, but there are several full accounts in the last few pages. First one post meeting was from me, last night around 10:30 - 11:00.

Any specific questions or concerns, fire away, only other option i have is cut and paste, my fingers are getting sore from all the posting today.

I have done FA, hope the boss doesn't check the logs or I'm in da shit.

[Ozzie]

Please view this thread here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=700111#post700111)

[Lou Girardin]

more injuries come from the Horse park at woodhil than the bike park, and neither of them pay ACC levies, why do we have to pay extra?

More to the point, injuries and fatalities in 4WD's are out of proportion to their numbers, especially when compared to conventional cars. Are there plans to increase their ACC levys?

[Blackbird]

Guys, I'm sorry that I missed the opportunity of meeting you all in Hamilton but I was in the south island. There has been a lot of talk about using BRONZ to further our case, but has anyone given thought to using the bike magazines, Honda Riders Club, dealers and the like to get an organised strong lobby going? My apols if this has been discussed but I have about 1500 posts to work my way through since returning!

Cheers

Geoff

[Ozzie]

Whangarei this Friday, who's going?

Would be nice to swamp them, could do a slow ride over the harbour bridge to sort of announce our departure.

[Squeak the Rat]

I'm trying to get off work to go to the whangarei one, but won't know for a couple of days. Candor - this is one of the areas where drugs are quite significant....

The notes from the workshops are supposed to be up in 10 days, so the Wellington one should be up tomorrow morning - will be interesting to see....

[Squeak the Rat]

Wellington output is on the site. My first impression was it is more balanced than I expected.......

[Mental Trousers]

Wellington output is on the site. My first impression was it is more balanced than I expected.......
Ummm, got a link to that stuff Squeek

[Squeak the Rat]

In the Regional Workshops section.

This link Linky (http://www.safeas.govt.nz/smf/index.php?board=14.0) will take you to the Wellington forum, check out Question 2 for the issues, and Question 3 for the possible solutions.....

[kickingzebra]

Fudge!! Posted a huge post, only to be logged out, and lost it all!!

Hence, this is a reminder to me to post it all back up later on. Bear with me, I have a few annoying ideas.

[Mental Trousers]

Ah sorry, I misread your post. Doh.

[Squeak the Rat]

Annoying ideas...exxxxcelent.

See Candor pointed out that the drug-driving points were not included in the workshop output. And they expect us to believe it's not a sham.

It would be good for the Hammy participants to check that it looks as you remember it.

And for photo's to be taken of the output charts at the next meetings :blip: