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Devil
8th June 2004, 08:28
Ok since I filled up my bike on saturday (91 RON) I've had to crash start the damn thing because it just wont catch using the starter. Previously, on a cold morning, this thing would start at the bat of an eyelid.

Have people had this problem? Or is the tank of gas just a coincidence?
Once you crash start it, its fine, all the electrics work fine.

Im assuming the bike started ok leaving that gas station because the old gas would have still been sitting in the pipes...

Ive been trying to use it all up over the weekend, i managed to dilute it a bit, but I wonder if its gooped up my plugs :doh:

jrandom
8th June 2004, 08:33
That's why I always use the Mobil/BP 98 RON, even though my bike isn't tuned to require that octane. I'm convinced that there's something about that gas beyond the octane ratio that makes it better. It's cleaner or summat. Everything just generally runs better on it. Try switching to it for a while, see if it makes a difference.

FROSTY
8th June 2004, 08:33
try draining ya carbies out. I had exactly the same prob with the FXR
It was definitely a carb half full of water. Ohh and along with about a 1/4 ltr in the tank. :angry2:

Antallica
8th June 2004, 09:20
Yeah I always use the '96. Worth the extra penny by far. Can't get BP '98 here though :(

Devil
8th June 2004, 09:23
try draining ya carbies out. I had exactly the same prob with the FXR
It was definitely a carb half full of water. Ohh and along with about a 1/4 ltr in the tank. :angry2:
Im too much of a n00b for that :( Any instructions, or does it take a ride to your place? heh

re: 96RON, my bike has been running excellent on 91 previously, started easy every time. I might try 96 but we'll see.

Cajun
8th June 2004, 11:55
i only run on 91, manual told me to run unleaded over 90 octane, so 91 is, and i am to much of a cheap skate to buy 96 at moment, i have tryed a could of tank fulls of 96 in the gixxer and didn't make much difference. Not that it matters much, at the current rate i can get somewere close to 300kms out of a tank,

merv
8th June 2004, 12:21
My VFR runs on 91 and my dirt bike (and previous dirt bikes) on 96. I've always found the ones on 96 harder to start if I leave them a while, but otherwise no problems with either fuel. You may have got a bad abtch or as has been said above maybe a bit of water in the tank.

FROSTY
8th June 2004, 13:01
Im too much of a n00b for that :( Any instructions, or does it take a ride to your place? heh

re: 96RON, my bike has been running excellent on 91 previously, started easy every time. I might try 96 but we'll see.
Bring her over to my place if ya wanna.
Its a pretty easy job once ya see it done--as in real easy.

Devil
8th June 2004, 13:14
Bring her over to my place if ya wanna.
Its a pretty easy job once ya see it done--as in real easy.
Dude it would be a big help just to see how to take the bike apart!
I started to fiddle with taking the tank off in the weekend, but I chickened out :(

PM me your email address and ill make myself available for any time you might have!

:apint:

Big Dog
8th June 2004, 15:21
I'm convinced that there's something about that gas beyond the octane ratio that makes it better. It's cleaner or summat.
There is something different about it, it costs more, and it has more additives (which is why it costs more) no-one. :killingme

If you are running 96+in a bike designed to take 91 don't blame the fuel companies when fuel injectors, spark plugs, leads, and filters get consumed faster.

Petrol arrives in this country below 90 (can't remember exact octane rating) and is artificially boosted to the desired amount. Either way you are buying the same gas but buying additives with it.

Most sub 250 will need retuning to run smoothly on 96+, but some fuel injections systems will compensate automatically.

It is unlikely you will harm your engine but you will harm your consumerables if you are not getting near the redline for prolonged periods of time regularly. :niceone:

FROSTY
8th June 2004, 15:29
Dude it would be a big help just to see how to take the bike apart!
I started to fiddle with taking the tank off in the weekend, but I chickened out :(

PM me your email address and ill make myself available for any time you might have!

:apint:
dude give me a call -021544251 anytime
Im home with Baby bikie from 6.30 on most nights
Ill be in the garage tonight putting the little FXR back together.
You organise dinner and Ill show ya how to take ya bike to bits.
--for another $10000 ill show ya how to put it back together :killingme

Drunken Monkey
8th June 2004, 16:08
Yeah check plugs & carbs. Had the same problem when I ran outta gas on the '88 and my mate brought me 91 instead of 96/98.
Learned one new thing the hard way (the reserve switch wasn't hosed up properly by the previous owner/service) and confirmed another I thought to be true (low octane in an old high performance bike motor = bad).
Turned out running 2 x lots of 98 through the system helped clear it out of the carbs, but the damage was already done. It was enough to stuff up one of the spark plugs permanently.
2 tanks of gas and a new spark plug later, everything was back to normal.

Jackrat
8th June 2004, 19:55
If you suspect water in the fuel put a couple of caps of meths in the tank.
That will get rid of the water,,(No I don't know why,how ect it just does).
Then like me don't go back to that gas station.We have a local station out my way that seems to have a lot of water in their gas.
The locals Just don't go there no more. :spudwhat:

Mongoose
8th June 2004, 20:07
It was enough to stuff up one of the spark plugs permanently.
2 tanks of gas and a new spark plug later, everything was back to normal.[/QUOTE]

Had a simular problem with the Guzzi, once this new petrol does the damage to your plugs, thats it, they are shot, stuffed and not worth the effort of trying to rejuvinate them. A good clean will last till the end of the driveway.

Jinx3d
8th June 2004, 21:02
If your bike is a 2 stroke and not designed to run on 91 I might believe it.
..or - if you filled up from a farm supply tank.

Otherwise - nope - I dont believe it.

There are plenty of reasons your bike wont start and I think a dodgy fill from a busy service station is about the last on the list.

Your engine needs 4 things to start :
1..A starter motor and a battery capable of turning it over.
2..Compression.
3..A good spark
5..Fuel

Lets assume your motor has compression - (got a compression tester? Nah- neither do I but you can make sure there is something by holding your thumb over the plugs, if it doesnt get forced off by the compression....Oh dear.)

Watch the headlight while you turn the motor over. If it is staying bright and the motor is turning over, your battery is probly okay. The motor needs to be turning over effortlessly, not whir {pause}whir {pause} whirrrrr {pause} whiiiirrrrr. Not good enough.

Most motorcycle ignition these days consists of checking the plugs. If the leads are old they may be letting the spark out on damp and rainy days so give these look. Take a plug out and earth the thread out on the engine. Make sure the lead is conected and turn it over. You should see a nice blue spark.

Grab a can of engine start or just some pertrol and give it a squirt down the carb throats while its turning over - if you have water in your fuel or blocked carbs then then it will probably start. If not, then there is another problem.

Good luck
Mike

FROSTY
8th June 2004, 21:29
as an alternative ya could check how fast the motor is turning over--or not and replace the battery --um just an idea. :moon:
not that id have any idea of course lol

jrandom
8th June 2004, 21:56
There is something different about it, it costs more, and it has more additives (which is why it costs more)

Yeah, yeah, I know I'm making myself sound like a dope, but until you've ridden my FXR on a tank of 91 or 96 (I can't tell any difference between *those*) and then a tank of that 98 stuff, don't die laughing at me, OK? I swear it runs different.

In fact, if I can find a circular tuit tomorrow, I'm gonna call Mobil or BP and ask for details on exactly where that 98 stuff comes from and what the chemiculistical differences are.

wari
8th June 2004, 21:58
Yeah, yeah, I know I'm making myself sound like a dope, but until you've ridden my FXR on a tank of 91 or 96 (I can't tell any difference between *those*) and then a tank of that 98 stuff, don't die laughing at me, OK? I swear it runs different.

In fact, if I can find a circular tuit tomorrow, I'm gonna call Mobil or BP and ask for details on exactly where that 98 stuff comes from and what the chemiculistical differences are.

What would THEY know about penistic operational procedures ? :spudwhat:

Devil
9th June 2004, 07:58
as an alternative ya could check how fast the motor is turning over--or not and replace the battery --um just an idea. :moon:
not that id have any idea of course lol
Hey, it sounded fine before!

*ahem*

xj for president!

Devil
9th June 2004, 07:59
As a side note, I think you've fixed my flat spots! i couldnt find them last night!

Legend!

Now, to have a go at that front rotor...

White trash
9th June 2004, 08:26
Here's an interesting thought.

Coming back from Auckland last time on the bike, I inadvertantly put a tank of 91 in it. Amazingly, I went 43km further than usual before the fuel light came on and I could not tell the difference in performance.

Still hoists the front at 120 in 2nd and all.

Queer huh :spudwhat:

vifferman
9th June 2004, 09:20
OK, there are some misconceptions running around in this thread.
Firstly, the RON number (91, 96 or 98) is the Research Octane Number, and refers to the amount of knock produced using a special machine that measures just that, relative to pure octane.
Petrol is a mixture of various petroleum distillates (mainly hexanes and heptanes) with fairly low flash/boiling points. When it ignites, it does so very readily, and will do so if you compress and heat it, without there necessarily being a spark. If it ignites before it's meant to (i.e., before the sparkplug has sparked), the pre-ignition causes a knock as the advancing flamefront tries to push the piston back down as it's on its way up on the compression stroke. This is very bad, as it's hard on the gudgeon pin, crank, etc.
Octane doesn't do this as much, and is used as an arbitrary measure of how readily pre-ignition occurs. If you add slower-burning stuff to the petrol, it doesn't knock as much; the higher the number, the less readily it knocks (pre-ignites). So if you have a very high compression engine, it will tend to ignite the petrol/air mix more readily, so you need a higher octane fuel and/or retarded ignition to stop knocking.
A common misconception is that the higher the number, the greater the power. This is generally not true. However, the more power you try to extract from an engine, the higher octane fuel you will need to use.

Now - here's the naughty bit. When the gummint leaned on the oil companies to take lead out of the petrol (coz of the greenies), the oil companies bleated about it and said it was too expensive to upgrade the refinery. So the gummint let them artificially boost the octane rating by adding a mixture of toluene and xylene (basically paintbrush cleaner!!) to it. The 96 starts out the same as the 91, but then has more of this crap added to it. Remember all the fuss (that the oil companies tried to brush off) about fuel lines and carb seals falling apart, cars catching on fire, etc. when the unleaded fuel was introduced? The xylene/toluene at work.

However, the BP 98, and probably all the fuel from Gull is imported already refined, so it's not so full of shit (in theory at least). BP says the 98 comes from Perth, and is squeaky clean. BTW - I spent a lot of time in Perth in 99 (about 16 weeks). There was a scandal there at that time about petrol station owners buying cheap low-grade petrol, and adding (get this) xylene and toluene to it to boost the octane rating, so they could sell it as premium. Oh the outcry! What a fuss was made! And yet the gummint here condone the Gang of Four doing exactly the same thing!

One more thing (while I'm in rant mode) - the additives now are worse than tetraethyl lead ever was. There was NO evidence of lead poisoning or of it accumulating in the NZ environment. However, xylene and toluene are nasty. Not only do they not burn cleanly, and smell bad, but they are highly toxic and carcinogenic.

So - if your bike runs OK on 91, don't bother spending the extra on 96 - you'll get no power benefit, it may run more worserer, and it'll cost more. If your vehicle needs high-octane fuel, you'd be advised to at least occasionally use 98 and/or properly refined fuel from somewhere other than Marsden Point.

I thought I was being smart running my VFR on 96 when I first got it, despite being advised not to ("It will wreck the carb rubbers"). No, it didn't wreck the carbs - it fouled the plugs! Many bikes have very small spark plugs these days, with very tiny electrodes, and it takes little to fuckemup. The VTR has platinum or iridium electrodes, and they CANNOT be cleaned, so once they get 'varnished' or sooty, they're buggered. At $30 each for iridium plugs, I don't monkey about with putting shonky fuel in it.

White trash
9th June 2004, 09:42
Thanks for that, cleared up a lot of questions I had.

vifferman
9th June 2004, 10:12
Thanks for that, cleared up a lot of questions I had.
Hope I got it all basically correct. :wacko:

(Sorry about the over-abundance of words - it's a favourite rant topic of mine)

jrandom
9th June 2004, 10:42
the BP 98, and probably all the fuel from Gull is imported already refined, so it's not so full of shit (in theory at least). BP says the 98 comes from Perth, and is squeaky clean.

Aha. Thanks for that. I knew it was imported from *somewhere*, but didn't know where.

I reiterate my point above about it making a difference beyond the octane-related resistance to preignition.

Big Dog
9th June 2004, 15:46
Hope I got it all basically correct. :wacko:

(Sorry about the over-abundance of words - it's a favourite rant topic of mine)
Yeah what he said!

Thanks for putting into semi tech terms what I was clearly inept at conveying in layman.

Not sure about 98 but all the other fuels in Auckers come out of the the one tap down in Wiri. The only differences are the additives and the sign on the truck.

Kind of like a post mix soft drink.
They are all base water and then an additve or two are added and you have coke.

Big Dog
9th June 2004, 15:59
Yeah, yeah, I know I'm making myself sound like a dope, but until you've ridden my FXR on a tank of 91 or 96 (I can't tell any difference between *those*) and then a tank of that 98 stuff, don't die laughing at me, OK? I swear it runs different.

As fire stormer says common misconception, there is no increase in power from higher octane but less problems at high rpm/compression.
Modern watercooled bikes rely on this a lot less as the chambers carry a lot less heat.

But @ The EOD, you are the one paying for it. You are the one paying for the consumerables. So if you are happy you are right (this is what is really meant by the customer is always right).

jrandom
9th June 2004, 16:34
As fire stormer says common misconception, there is no increase in power from higher octane but less problems at high rpm/compression.

Indeed. I never thought or stated that there *was* an increase in power in my bike from a higher octane, as evidenced by the fact that I've never noticed a difference between 91 and 96. But my bike *does* run better on that 98 stuff, presumably because in some arcane chemicular manner (ie, apart from its equivalent octane/pentane ratio) it's less shitty.

Firefight
9th June 2004, 17:01
[QUOTE=Big Dog]Yeah what he said!

Thanks for putting into semi tech terms what I was clearly inept at conveying in layman.

Not sure about 98 but all the other fuels in Auckers come out of the the one tap down in Wiri.



Hey BD,
I thought Gull was trucked up from the Mount ??


F/F :blink:

FROSTY
9th June 2004, 18:47
hold fire guys. Avgas or 100ish octane is according to your theoery basicly the same as 91 with octane boosters now that dont sound right to me

Jinx3d
9th June 2004, 19:26
hold fire guys. Avgas or 100ish octane is according to your theoery basicly the same as 91 with octane boosters now that dont sound right to me

I worked at an aerodrome for a while and was reading a tech manual and thats pretty much what it said.

Av gas = shit loads of lead. I dont think it has to be this way, its just cheaper to add lead. This was in the days of lead, not sure about now.
What you can say about av gas is that it is Slower burning. Perhaps this could be felt subjectively as a smooth running motor. Maybe?

Also, I agree that petrol is a lot more harmfull these day. The cure was worse than thu diease. I was a mechanic for 6 years and spent hours up to my armpits in the stuff. These days I walk off the forecourt when my car is filling.

Just to add to the techno stuff, the rating is a comparison. 96 octane means that the petrol has the same anti knock properties as a mixture of 96% ISO octane and 4% normal heptane. GO mad if you choose and read all about it.

http://www.sizes.com/units/octane_number.htm

Over and out

Mongoose
9th June 2004, 19:28
Not sure about 98 but all the other fuels in Auckers come out of the the one tap down in Wiri. The only differences are the additives and the sign on the truck.

Kind of like a post mix soft drink.
They are all base water and then an additve or two are added and you have coke.[/QUOTE]

Some are no different at all, they even pump out of the same port tanks, so it is only ther colour of the truck that is the difference.

Drunken Monkey
9th June 2004, 19:39
Here's an interesting thought.

Coming back from Auckland last time on the bike, I inadvertantly put a tank of 91 in it. Amazingly, I went 43km further than usual before the fuel light came on and I could not tell the difference in performance.

Still hoists the front at 120 in 2nd and all.

Queer huh :spudwhat:

Dude, your bike is EFI = the system will advance/retard the timing to accomodate the change in 'knock' the different fuels have. With the timing and fuel feed adjusted to suit the different type of fuel, your plugs wouldn't have been subjected to combustion conditions they weren't designed for. Carb'd engines don't have this luxury.
There would have been a minor performance difference, but probably only something you could've shown with accurate meters (rather than the good old fashioned (gut-o-meter). I add this only counts if you're up in the high revs where the engine may be prone to knock (and thus be forced to retard the timing more than normal). If you're not using the very top of your rev range, you shouldn't be as at risk to knock and therefore shouldn't notice a performance change.
Not sure about the difference in economy. I can't remember what other changes occur. I have 1 basic rule, if it's old (<1985) or a force fed or otherwise high performance engine (ie more likely to suffer from 'knock') always use the highest octane fuel you can get. If it's a late model (>1990) runabout then 91 should be fine.

I do assume you meant your 2K3 GSX-R600 here...

Ghost Lemur
9th June 2004, 20:10
Does that mean I should run my '81 cb250rs on 96?

marty
9th June 2004, 20:17
avgas has lead additives still as it is not used on the road, and does not come under the rules for emmision control. there are issues associated with knock in aviation engines - not the least that it cannot be heard by the pilot, and unless they are electronic ignition (high-end $250k machines) they have no method of inflight advance or retard. they are designed for best performance over a range of operation.

marty
9th June 2004, 20:26
from memory an aviation engine is set to about 25 degrees BTDC. i only work on gas turbine engines (with 100000 hp...mmmmmmm) but one of the guys i work with is a piston engine overhaul specialist. i'll ask him in the morning. i do know that AVGAS is less volatile the MOGAS, so it does not tend to cause vapour locks in lines when heated - not a huge problem in your car on the motorway, but at 5000 feet........

geoffm
10th June 2004, 12:13
Dude, your bike is EFI = the system will advance/retard the timing to accomodate the change in 'knock' the different fuels have. With the timing and fuel feed adjusted to suit the different type of fuel, your plugs wouldn't have been subjected to combustion conditions they weren't designed for. Carb'd engines don't have this luxury.

Only true if it has a knock sensor. Map EFI systems are basically electronic carbs - engine RPM = this much, then squirt for this long. most have throttle position sensors as well

maybe
10th June 2004, 22:01
Mate and I filled up in the Wairarapa couple of weekends ago and had nothing but problems since with both of bikes backfiring and not running to well.....mate just spent a couple hundred getting the carbs done to try and fix the prob - which it did - as for me, mine are booked into TSS Lower Hutt (plug there) :bleh:

FROSTY
10th June 2004, 22:34
I tell ya what Ive seen how casual they are filling them tanks --I would always suggest a simple carb drain if ya suddenly get bad performance after filling up

Mongoose
11th June 2004, 00:00
avgas has lead additives still as it is not used on the road, and does not come under the rules for emmision control. there are issues associated with knock in aviation engines - not the least that it cannot be heard by the pilot, and unless they are electronic ignition (high-end $250k machines) they have no method of inflight advance or retard. they are designed for best performance over a range of operation.


Is AVGAS not also *dryer* than MOGAS? Just wondered as i have heard this, oily fuel is not too hot at high altitude or some such thing?

Big Dog
11th June 2004, 18:29
Hey BD,
I thought Gull was trucked up from the Mount ??


F/F :blink:
Dunno TBH but there was a Gull truck exiting wiri when I was down there about 18 months ago.

Big Dog
11th June 2004, 18:45
Some are no different at all, they even pump out of the same port tanks, so it is only ther colour of the truck that is the difference.
Not quite, Vortex has detergents, surfactants etc. added. In different parts of the country anti-thickening agents are added to prevent starving in particularly cold conditions (at different times of the year).

Most fuels have the same or similar additives, the only difference being the amount of "seasoning" for each additive.

Most fuels also have different dyes used as they react to the additives.

Vortex is yellower than Synergy. Bp is slight green tinge, shell is a darker red etc. (I'm not mad get a small sample of each and hold them up to the light). Sometimes trucks will deliver to a site from a different company that has run out on short notice as a favour, and expect the same in return later.

I find my bike runs better on vortex. Ran rough at first, but once all the the black shit stoped comming out the other end all good.

Yes I work for Caltex. Yes I have a fuel card.
But I was a loyal customer for 12 years before I worked for them, and as long as I am paying for my own fuel card it will be Caltex.

I have to fill up at bp on the coro loop to make it back. My bike runs rough at idle for at least two tanks later.

I don't think Bp have shitty fuel just that small engines prefer to use the same fuel consistently.

Posh Tourer :P
12th June 2004, 11:34
Does that mean I should run my '81 cb250rs on 96?

Probably.....

Drunken Monkey
13th June 2004, 11:57
Only true if it has a knock sensor. Map EFI systems are basically electronic carbs - engine RPM = this much, then squirt for this long. most have throttle position sensors as well

Ah yes, further research leads me to beleive the Gixxer's open loop feedback comes from the O2 sensor, and no knock sensor is present. Still, the O2 sensor should give the computer enough information to adjust the fuel injection as required, based on too much/not enough O2 than expected at any given situation. Not sure if a different octance fuel could effect this though?
Don't all EFI systems have to have a TPS? How else would the system know how much throttle you are giving it otherwise?

Firefight
13th June 2004, 20:05
Dunno TBH but there was a Gull truck exiting wiri when I was down there about 18 months ago.

Hey again BD, Checked it out on the website, it comes from the Mount, the more I think about it , Ia'm sure we have discussed this B4, some people were claiming that Gull was cleaner than the shit that comes from Marsden Pt, not sure why you saw a gull tanker at WORSL(wiri oil terminal), can,t say as I have seen any there, I go there from time to time, anyway some one may be able to find the posts about the difference in fuel quality.

Web is www.gull.co.nz.

Firefight.

scumdog
13th June 2004, 21:21
hold fire guys. Avgas or 100ish octane is according to your theoery basicly the same as 91 with octane boosters now that dont sound right to me

Avgs & 100 octane fuel IS worth a few more horses IF you have 10.5:1 comp AND run a lot of ignition advance, waste of time in a stock 8:1 engine with factory timing IMHO and experience - a lot of boy racers chuck a heap of avgas in their stock Mitsantoya and will tell you "gives it a heap more grunt" ( key to TUI ad, "yeah right") :bash:

FROSTY
13th June 2004, 23:20
Hey again BD, Checked it out on the website, it comes from the Mount, the more I think about it , Ia'm sure we have discussed this B4, some people were claiming that Gull was cleaner than the shit that comes from Marsden Pt, not sure why you saw a gull tanker at WORSL(wiri oil terminal), can,t say as I have seen any there, I go there from time to time, anyway some one may be able to find the posts about the difference in fuel quality.

Web is www.gull.co.nz.

Firefight.
Is it the case that gull used to get their gas prerefined direct from overseas. I seem to recall that was the story going around the traps

Big Dog
13th June 2004, 23:50
Hey again BD, Checked it out on the website,
cher cher.

There is always one who refuses to play nice eh?

Firefight
14th June 2004, 06:14
Is it the case that gull used to get their gas prerefined direct from overseas. I seem to recall that was the story going around the traps


Yeah thats the story I heard, am digging a bit deeper to see what else I can find out.

F/F

SPman
14th June 2004, 07:02
Yeah thats the story I heard, am digging a bit deeper to see what else I can find out.

F/F
I was under the impression Gull , (and previously Challenge), imported their fuel, mainly from Singapore. Gull diesel is definitely imported, the van much prefers it,

Firefight
19th June 2004, 09:06
I was under the impression Gull , (and previously Challenge), imported their fuel, mainly from Singapore. Gull diesel is definitely imported, the van much prefers it,


Yes SP, just got a email from Gull HQ/PR, and they confirm all fuel is from overseas, mostly Singapore as you say, and naturally they claim it is cleaner.

F/F

avgas
21st November 2004, 20:04
one day for shits and giggles we chucked deisel in my old kwaka 100 (with some 2T of course). i think it only was running on like 100-200watts. Fuckn hilarious. Kept stalling too. I hated that bike