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McJim
7th August 2006, 07:36
Instead of more tickets, lower speed limits, better roads here's a different solution to prevent road accidents.

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-6136903,00.html

Or is it just a Pom having a whinge?

you decide

Bob
7th August 2006, 07:52
You can drive at 15? Wow.

You used to be allowed to ride a really tiny moped (50cc I think) here at 15, many years ago. But that was raised to 16 (being when you can leave school), with 125cc allowance at 17 then 18 before you can do your restricted (to 33bhp, so realistically a 250cc bike) two years licence at 18.

I'm not sure what the legal age for cars is here, but I'm guessing 18.

Grahameeboy
7th August 2006, 07:54
I agree...when I first arrived in NZ I remember seeing some kid literally behind the wheel!!
I think 15 is an impressionable age and too young to drive as they are more likely to pick up bad habits.....I mean how many cars do you see with learners driving??
Plus cheap japanese imports does not help.

James Deuce
7th August 2006, 07:58
Yes it is too young. But very few people on KB agree with me. The standard excuse of school leavers of 15 needing a license doesn't apply anymore.

We're so risk averse now that most 15 year olds I've met aren't aware that you can die, let alone get hurt in an MVA. Given the lack of personal responsibility that people are required to own these days, I think 24 would be a good minimum age.

For women.

There are still too many "men" at 24 who have all the ego issues of a 12 year old. I reckon it should probably be 35 for men, after they have been forced to pay $100,000 to get their license. That might make a few people value it.

I think people should HAVE TO RIDE BIKES as a first vehicle too. Push bikes that is. They can have a motorcycle if they don't fall off their pushie for 5 years.

Edbear
7th August 2006, 08:21
Yes it is too young. But very few people on KB agree with me. The standard excuse of school leavers of 15 needing a license doesn't apply anymore.

We're so risk averse now that most 15 year olds I've met aren't aware that you can die, let alone get hurt in an MVA. Given the lack of personal responsibility that people are required to own these days, I think 24 would be a good minimum age.

For women.

There are still too many "men" at 24 who have all the ego issues of a 12 year old. I reckon it should probably be 35 for men, after they have been forced to pay $100,000 to get their license. That might make a few people value it.

I think people should HAVE TO RIDE BIKES as a first vehicle too. Push bikes that is. They can have a motorcycle if they don't fall off their pushie for 5 years.



You old cynic, you! LOL!!! I agree that there are far too many drivers on the road who simply have no idea about the dynamics involved in driving! Not restricted to age, gender, race or any other peculiarity, either!

I can remember learning to drive at 13, (shhh!), and was complimented by the Cop who took me for my licence at 15. Unfortunately the licence requirements are not good enough - I don't mind the 15 year old limit, but there does urgently need to be a change in the way NZ licences are granted!

Drum
7th August 2006, 08:29
I got my full drivers license 2 weeks after I turned 15. Yes, I was young (hadnt even been laid yet - but that changed once I could drive!). Of course we were driving Anglia's and Cortina's, not the hotted up death machines that the teenagers drive today.

Sure I had a couple of minor diasagreements with a fence or two, but by the time I was 20 I had 5 years driving experience and was better for it, and havnt been involved in an incident since. Touch wood.

dhunt
7th August 2006, 08:53
I think it depends on the person. Some kids driving is just natural and won't have any problems driving at 15 where as other kids 21 might be tooo young still. What do you do then? ie. Most farm kids are probably driving cars & motorbikes since they were probably 12 or younger - where as joe bloggs in auckland city first jumps in a car when he's done his stratchy test at 15 with no prior experience.

Squeak the Rat
7th August 2006, 08:55
Ah, 15. Throwing on the handbrake at 70kph just to see what would happen.

I was a complete hoon and a bit bloody stupid when I got my licence at 15. And this was when all kids could afford was escorts and 1975 toyota corollas. We were stupid but we had less horsepower than my bike in a car that weighed 10 times as much.

I don't blame the boy racers. Shit if I had a turbo charged subaru impreza when I was 15 I'd be going nuts. And I'd most likely be dead.

Quartida
7th August 2006, 09:09
I agree with dhunt and Squeak.... It's partly about the person and party about the car.

I got my licence at 15. I was taught well and took it easy to begin with (just like with the bike). Have had a few minor "accidents" in my time (example: backing around in a driveway and having a corner of the car just nick the fence....damn, new front indicator needed...), but nothing even vaguely life-threatening. This is because I know my limits, I know my car's limits, and I watch the road.

This last point is not observed by many young drivers. For all 15 year olds: watching the road does NOT mean just watching just the small strip of road in front of you! I think many young people are taught to drive without being taught 'road awareness'*.


* This includes, but is not limited to, watching side roads for oncoming vehicles, slowing down when children are playing beside the road, and not dragging your mates at the traffic lights at 100kmph in a 30 zone.

GR81
7th August 2006, 09:35
chuck a poll up!

MSTRS
7th August 2006, 09:46
I think many young people are taught to drive without being taught 'road awareness'*.
I often think that young people are only taught how to get their licence...

GR81
7th August 2006, 10:14
the 'road awareness' is what the full licence practical test is all about these days.

Lou Girardin
7th August 2006, 10:48
I've tested a couple of 15 year olds who'd shame many older drivers. But most are nowhere near that good. 15 is a stupid age to allow them to drive, but we have a Govt who can't see past writing tickets as a cure for the incompetents they allow to drive.
If you were cynical, you'd say that's the plan.

dnos
7th August 2006, 10:49
I reckon that the license system is a bit screwed. I got my license at 15 after looking at the road code and doing the practice tests the night before. It was so fucking easy!! I then promptly forgot all that crap in my short term memory and had my parents reteach me whilst learning.
It is so easy to get a license that even the stupidest of my mates managed and it was severely laughed upon if you failed.
As for the restricted and full tests they are also easy if you can A-obey road rules and B-make up a whole lot of crap about what could go wrong at the moment the testing person asks.
But that isn't how most people drive and they are on best behaviour whilst being tested - behaviour which is never used under normal conditions.

I really believe that it is far too easy to get a license and there is no way near enough training involved.

Its no wonder there are so many idiots on our roads who aren't aware of all the dangers and believe they are invincible. And there is nothing worse than a driver who doesn't know how to react in an accident.

wow what a long rant. phew

crashe
7th August 2006, 11:12
I say put it up to 17 or 18 years old to get their license.

I said it at my table at the SAFE AS workshop in Hamilton, but the rest bombarded me down... (3 were bikers).

I see so many young kids get behind a wheel and they cant even see over the steering wheel, and no they havent put the seat into the lying down postition either.
So if they cant even see over the steering wheel, how the hell can they even see the road. That is just one example.

Another is they are getting these turbo boosted vehicles and racing around in them. They get in them and they think WOHOOOO I can drive this and I dont care of the consquenceses left behind.

Sure there are one or two that are the exemption (C of CaN) but most do NOT know how to handle these machines.

I got my car license at 17 (closer to 18) and to me that is a better age than 15.
I got my bike license not long after that.
I went and got my HT a few years ago.

I even busted my own daughter taking other passengers in her car as they all piled into her car after school... Yep I pulled up behind the car and hauled each and everyone out of the car. Yep My daughter was so pissed off at me... BUT I will not be having to tell the other kids parents that my daughter injured or killed someone else's child. I made each one promise me that they wouldnt get back in that car. They didnt either, I scared the shit out of them.

Was I mean........ NO... I was saving lives... and my daughter sure learnt not to do it again. All kids try it on by carrying other around in the car when they shouldn't.
A few months later she thanked me for doing it.

Last night as I was in a car and I saw a cop pull over a car full of young girls just past Dairy Flat, what is the bet the driver wasnt meant to be carrying passengers... they were very young looked around 15 or 16.

So I say take it up to 17 or 18.

Finn
7th August 2006, 11:22
I think the legal driving age should be 18 for males and 21 for females (because of their smaller brain).

What pisses me off is that the conference is in Queenstown. They just love wasting other peoples money don't they (retorical question). I always get nervous when any of our stupid agencies get together in one room. Nothing intelligent ever comes out of it.

Kendog
7th August 2006, 11:23
My dad had a bad ticker and taught me to drive at about 12, just incase I had to rush him to the hospital (find the logic in that!).
We lived in the country so it was nothing for me at 13 to drive to the dairy or post office on my own in the ute. Touch wood I have only had one minor fender bender too.
We were all taught to drive tractors at very young ages (I was told my brother was about 5 when he started driving the tractor, slowly around the paddocks, propped up on a cushion and had to slide off the seat to reach the pedals).
But back to the topic, 15 does seem too young to be let loose on the roads in a death machine, geeze, I wouldn't want a 15 year old looking after my cat, let alone driving a car with me in it!! Just my opinion.
Mrs KD.

crashe
7th August 2006, 11:38
I think the legal driving age should be 18 for males and 21 for females (because of their smaller brain).

OI YOU !:nono: :nono:

sels1
7th August 2006, 12:09
I even busted my own daughter taking other passengers in her car as they all piled into her car after school... Yep I pulled up behind the car and hauled each and everyone out of the car. Yep My daughter was so pissed off at me... BUT I will not be having to tell the other kids parents that my daughter injured or killed someone else's child. I made each one promise me that they wouldnt get back in that car. They didnt either, I scared the shit out of them.
.

Good on you for doing that - wish more parents did.
I dont think the current licence process is that bad if it is done properly. It takes around 2 years to get a full licence so if you start at 15 then you are nearly 18 when you have your full. As one driving instructor said to me, 15yo kids are easier to control/influence than 18yo. And if they start driving at 15 with a parent alongside, by the time they get their full they should have had a couple of years supervised experiance. Too many parents know their kids are not keeping to their licence provisions and turn a blind eye. The cops dont seem to try too hard on this on either.
I taught my 3 kids to drive, all starting at 15. But I am a meanie like crashe - they had to stick to the letter of the law until they had their full. They were not allowed their own car until they had their full - and it would be a fate worse than death if they did anything silly in my car. I am happy to report they turned out safe and compent drivers.

Squeak the Rat
7th August 2006, 12:14
My parents believed I was a safe, sensible and competent teenage driver too. Because I was whenever they were looking.

sunhuntin
7th August 2006, 12:19
i cant drive a car and have no plans to learn. heck...i wouldnt even know how to start one! but i can top up oil, water, tyres, petrol. lol. i didnt get my bike license till i was over 20 [last year] and am still on my learners. 15 is way too young.....way too young. although, to get the experience of how a road works, they should start out at 15/16 on a 50cc scooter...no bigger. they would still have a car learners, so mum or dad could still take them out, but they should have to spend time on 2 wheels. and then, go for restricted/full at 17 or so, or whenever they feel ready.

McJim
7th August 2006, 12:31
I think children should all start on bicycles. Then we'll see less obesity problems too.

Oh my god - listen to me - I've turned into an angry old fart!

Motu
7th August 2006, 12:31
I'd like to think that 15 is not a problem,it never has been before.But like Jim2 I think we have bred a generation who will never fail a test,will never be in the wrong,and never have to take consequences for their actions.They will never get hurt because all the hazzards have been identified and proceedures put in place.

I taught both my girls to drive,and they have come out ok.I don't think my eldest is too hot shit a driver - but she did survive 4 years as an inner city urgent courier and only wrote off one car,so I think she has a grasp of the situation.My younger daughter is a very good driver,got her licence on her 15th birthday.I remember when she was on her learners and she'd be yakking away 90 to the dozen as she does....and we'd be comming up to a roundabout and I'd be getting really nervous.Like...um,girl....we are going into this intersection! But no worries,I noticed she had been checking traffic all around her,was aware of where every car was and what she was about to do,I was pretty impressed.But I think she's had more prangs than her older sister.

So I'm happy with 15 for my own family - but for everyone else....18 for you lot.

crashe
7th August 2006, 12:32
Good on you for doing that - wish more parents did.
I dont think the current licence process is that bad if it is done properly. It takes around 2 years to get a full licence so if you start at 15 then you are nearly 18 when you have your full. As one driving instructor said to me, 15yo kids are easier to control/influence than 18yo. And if they start driving at 15 with a parent alongside, by the time they get their full they should have had a couple of years supervised experiance. Too many parents know their kids are not keeping to their licence provisions and turn a blind eye. The cops dont seem to try too hard on this on either.
I taught my 3 kids to drive, all starting at 15. But I am a meanie like crashe - they had to stick to the letter of the law until they had their full. They were not allowed their own car until they had their full - and it would be a fate worse than death if they did anything silly in my car. I am happy to report they turned out safe and compent drivers.

Yep I even made her be home by 10pm or I took the keys off her... for a week. She soon learnt to be home by 10pm. She would pull into the driveway at 1 minute to 10pm.
She only got her license early cos of the job she was doing. Working til after 9pm and I was having to go and collect her on cold wet raining nights.
Her car was under my name and my insurance until she got her full license, that way I had control over the use of the car.
She was taught throu a driver instructor..

Korea
7th August 2006, 12:36
Here it is:
Smoking and drinking are set at 18, right? At 18 people should be responsible enough to handle their smokes and booze.

It just follows that people should be given the responsiblity to drive at 18 as well.

Now here's the kicker:
Young drivers seem to be completely unaware of other road users, including motorcycles.
So... I propose that car licences should be reserved for 18+ BUT motorcycle licences may still be obtained at 15!

This makes perfect sense: We all know that motorcyclists have a morbid fear of death, so we are constantly aware of what is going on all around us (well some of us, anyway). We look out for other road users because we HAVE TO in order to stay alive.
If kids can choose between a 250cc bike at 15 or a car at 18, we're going to see more young riders learning basic road skills on bikes, and consequently more knowledgable, safer road users later in life when they graduate to a car licence.

C'mon, you KNOW it makes sense... :first:

Ixion
7th August 2006, 12:47
I go against the trend. I was riding at 14, and I reckon the age to LEARN should be reduced to 14. For a < 125cc motorcycle (with some HP , power/rate limits too, to keep the Cagivas out). Or car learners , with a parent or guardian ONLY in the car (not mates, boyfriends etc) . Restricted not till 18. And limited to urban areas, 50kph,with time limits, no motorways. Oh, and have to keep a logbook, for producing to the cops when they apply for their restricted. Signed off by parent or guardian

Reason I support this is that a 14 year old is still biddable. By 17 or 18 the youthful rebellion has set in. At 14, they'll listen to Mum or Dad (well, Dad, anyway). At 17, they know everything.

But: One (only one) breach of any rules and they lose completely their "early access" , and have to wait till 18 to start again! I reckon they'd be pretty careful. Know I would have, even at 15!

EDIT: I also think that testing should be given back to the cops.

SPman
7th August 2006, 13:16
Agree with Ixion. Driving at 12, licence at 15.Ive known several 15 yo drivers who are really good and serious about the whole deal. Saying that - the generations seem to have changed and lots of people out there now are stupider at 18 than we were at 12!

Indiana_Jones
7th August 2006, 13:17
I'd like to say 15, but I don't think kids (espically my generation and younger lol) can't handle the responsibility.

18 sounds better if you ask me

-Indy

inlinefour
7th August 2006, 13:43
Or is it just a Pom having a whinge?


Definitely a whinger, dunno about nationality though...:nya:

McJim
7th August 2006, 13:50
Definitely a whinger, dunno about nationality though...:nya:
Yeah - I don't know what nationality Kate McMahon is - just assumed she was a Pom coz of being 'The former head of Britain's Road Safety Strategy Department'.....Oh I see - you thought it was me that was whinging.

Fair enuff - I just thought you might like to see what a foreign expert thinks of the legislation here. Mind you looking at the poll most kiwis seem to agree with her....:nya: :nya:

inlinefour
7th August 2006, 13:56
Yeah - I don't know what nationality Kate McMahon is - just assumed she was a Pom coz of being 'The former head of Britain's Road Safety Strategy Department'.....Oh I see - you thought it was me that was whinging.

Fair enuff - I just thought you might like to see what a foreign expert thinks of the legislation here. Mind you looking at the poll most kiwis seem to agree with her....:nya: :nya:

Nah I was not meaning you. Dunno, I wonder if the majority these days live a very sheltered politcally correct world. By the time that I was 15 I had been riding motorcycles for 7 years and had been also riding down a few backroads. The only problem I had was getting used to all of the traffic in the built up areas. I wonder why some people feel the need to wrap cotton wool around others though...

kiwifruit
7th August 2006, 14:00
So... I propose that car licences should be reserved for 18+ BUT motorcycle licences may still be obtained at 15!

This makes perfect sense: We all know that motorcyclists have a morbid fear of death, so we are constantly aware of what is going on all around us (well some of us, anyway). We look out for other road users because we HAVE TO in order to stay alive.
If kids can choose between a 250cc bike at 15 or a car at 18, we're going to see more young riders learning basic road skills on bikes, and consequently more knowledgable, safer road users later in life when they graduate to a car licence.

C'mon, you KNOW it makes sense... :first:

yes, yes, yes!:first:

Hitcher
7th August 2006, 14:08
I got my car licence about two weeks after my 15th birthday. Dad's XW Falcon was the easiest thing I had ever driven, after having grown up driving the assortment of trucks and tractors that us and our neighbours had around the place.

I got my heavy traffic licence about a month after turning 18 and my artic licence about six months later.

About 28 years after that, I got my full class 6 licence. The rest, as they say, is history.

McJim
7th August 2006, 14:38
Nah I was not meaning you. Dunno, I wonder if the majority these days live a very sheltered politcally correct world. By the time that I was 15 I had been riding motorcycles for 7 years and had been also riding down a few backroads. The only problem I had was getting used to all of the traffic in the built up areas. I wonder why some people feel the need to wrap cotton wool around others though...
I hear what you're saying - I used to fart around on freshly dug potato fields on the West Coast of Scotland when I was a nipper using some 50cc piece of shit that me and my dad found in an old shed. I think the fact is that today there are more and busier roads. People have to be aware of other road users rather than just knowing how to point their own vehicle in the direction they want to go. I've got 2 boys and I'll be getting them into karting and peewee dirt bikes as soon as I can but I will be very strict about them going on the open road. Will pay heed to some of the hints given in this thread.

My opinion? 18 years before you get to play on public tarmac.

yungatart
7th August 2006, 16:10
Some 15 y/os can handle the responsibility of a licence, some not till 18 and, going on what I see every day, some should never be allowed to drive. You can't legislate for common sense though. hXc got his licence 3 days after his 15th birthday, he had some bucket racing experience (about 8 mths), a couple of sessions on the Taupo track and has ridden a push bike since he was 4. He is fairly sensible on the road, given that he is 15 and male, is certainly aware of the frailty of human life and the RESPONSIBILTY that goes with a licence, as in, it is NOT a right to have one. He is also aware that I have no problem in taking his keys off him, and selling his bike , if I deem it necessary. I would not have been happy for my three other children to be riding at 15 tho, they didn't display the level of responsibility or maturity that he does.

MSTRS
7th August 2006, 17:13
Some 15 y/os can handle the responsibility of a licence, some not till 18 and, going on what I see every day, some should never be allowed to drive. You can't legislate for common sense though. hXc got his licence 3 days after his 15th birthday, he had some bucket racing experience (about 8 mths), a couple of sessions on the Taupo track and has ridden a push bike since he was 4. He is fairly sensible on the road, given that he is 15 and male, is certainly aware of the frailty of human life and the RESPONSIBILTY that goes with a licence, as in, it is NOT a right to have one. He is also aware that I have no problem in taking his keys off him, and selling his bike , if I deem it necessary. I would not have been happy for my three other children to be riding at 15 tho, they didn't display the level of responsibility or maturity that he does.
This is true of so many young people. The poll on this thread is too restrictive (as is the current age) and there is no provision for individual circumstances/maturity etc. It's like the drinking age - some can be sensible at 18 and some can't.

mdooher
7th August 2006, 17:56
Young drivers seem to be completely unaware of other road users, including motorcycles.
So... I propose that car licences should be reserved for 18+ BUT motorcycle licences may still be obtained at 15!

:

Exactly what I have always said.
I guess that means there is someone else out there that thinks like me...poor bast.....

Korea
8th August 2006, 04:13
Exactly what I have always said.
I guess that means there is someone else out there that thinks like me...poor bast.....
Yes~! Everything except for the latex-rubber fetish thing :blah: Rowr~

Squeak the Rat
8th August 2006, 08:28
From http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3757572a11,00.html

His family lives about a 30-minute drive from Rangiora, where he goes to school, and he has been driving on the farm since he was 11.

"I need [my licence] it so I don't have to sit around the house all day – so I can go for a drive and see my mates," he said.

Need a licence my arse. Ride a bicycle you lazy shit.

Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)
8th August 2006, 10:18
Definitely 18. Altho I got my bike licence and car as soon as I turned 15, I wasn't allowed use of the car much at all. The motorbike I was - only because I was mainly off road riding - crikey it was an XR Honda 125 and it still goes today!!!some 25 mumble years later. The condition of getting my bike licence was I had to go on a defensive riding course - which was excellent - learning to lay the bike down, trail riding, all sorts. I was also from a hick town - today there are more cars on the road (much faster ones as well), more idiots - wasn't until I was 19 that I drove on a real highway/motorway!!
And I have to have a moan about how they teach the drivers. I have a lad that I'm "caregiving" not allowed to say babysitting (he's 16) - his father has taught him the correct way to drive using engine braking, using the gears properly etc - I've also reinforced this way of driving when I take him out for lessons. He's been told off by the instructors/test people that that is wrong! FFS. Rant over!!

sels1
8th August 2006, 13:35
So... I propose that car licences should be reserved for 18+ BUT motorcycle licences may still be obtained at 15!

I too think there is some merit in this!

Hawkeye
8th August 2006, 19:02
Some 15 y/os can handle the responsibility of a licence, some not till 18 and, going on what I see every day, some should never be allowed to drive. You can't legislate for common sense though. hXc got his licence 3 days after his 15th birthday, he had some bucket racing experience (about 8 mths), a couple of sessions on the Taupo track and has ridden a push bike since he was 4. He is fairly sensible on the road, given that he is 15 and male, is certainly aware of the frailty of human life and the RESPONSIBILTY that goes with a licence, as in, it is NOT a right to have one. He is also aware that I have no problem in taking his keys off him, and selling his bike , if I deem it necessary. I would not have been happy for my three other children to be riding at 15 tho, they didn't display the level of responsibility or maturity that he does.


I posted a similar thing on another thread and got slated for being an overbaring parent. I said the oldest was mature enough to understand the dangers at 15 (though he is actually 17 now) but the younger son at 14 still had a lot of growing up to do. You are right. It's a very individual thing which ligislation cannot cover. It therefore becomes the responsibility of the parents who know their own kids to also apply common sense.

MattRSK
8th August 2006, 19:10
I am a hoon. Always will be.

poorbastard
8th August 2006, 19:33
I learnt to drive when I was about 10 by myself but was behind the steering wheel with the old man using the pedels long before that. Was on the farm however.

Sketchy_Racer
8th August 2006, 20:43
I think the age is allright.

Expecially for school leavers ect which can start work full time at 15.

I do believe that the Car drivers should have to sit a practical driving course before they can even get their learners and the adult that will 'teach' them muct attend the course as well, so that they know what to teach thier kids.

The Restricted licence test should be longer and much harder. But still cost the same. Its a rip off at the moment.

Age i don't believe is the issue, but the way 'kids' are being taught.

The reason i don't think age is a big issue is because you still get alot of 20 + year olds that act like a 15 Y.o or even worse.


the drinking age however should be put up big time. Even + 25 year olds!!!!!

MattRSK
8th August 2006, 20:53
you know I think putting the drinking age up to 25 would be a really good idea. I mean im a raging idiot when im drinking. I am not mature enough to control myself and always binge drink. I am not even the worst though by far. Every weekend I see crazy idiots, doing crazy things. Feel sorry for the police etc. Note I NEVER DRINK DRIVE

Sketchy_Racer
8th August 2006, 21:06
Go on ya matt.

If you did drink and drive/ride i would have to KICK YOUR ASS!!

MattRSK
8th August 2006, 21:11
Theres the public admittance. Next rehab! :blah:

Ixion
8th August 2006, 21:23
Mr RG100 makes a very valid point about the cost of sitting for a licence. A check on the LTSA website shows that each stage costs $80-$100. Reports suggest that the "typical" test takes about half an hour. This implies that the testing company is charging at around $180 per hour. Given that their overheads must be minimal (the only machinery is the eye test gadget, and their is little or no "dead time", since tests are booked in advance ) this seems a very high charge out rate. I suggest that the testing company is in fact ripping off the public, because of their monopoly position.

The cost would seem high in isolation, compared to , say , a plumber or other tradesman.

But, given the public benefit to be had from ensuring that all roads users are tested , it would be very easy to argue a case for the testing to be done "at cost" or even subsidised. After all, no-one is going to sit a few extra restricted tests, just because it's cheap.

Back in the day, I think it cost five shillings for a licence. I suggest that the givernment should reduce the cost to $20 per stage.

At present the total cost ofr a licence is over $300. That is a great deal of money to many people.

EDIT: I crossposted this to the safeas website

scracha
9th August 2006, 00:22
I suggest that the testing company is in fact ripping off the public, because of their monopoly position.


seems there's a hell of a lot of big companies in this country that have some sort of monopoly position or have formed a syndicate....it's a conspiracy I tell ya. Big fish in a small pond and we just take it.

Anyway, you can't compare the $uckw!ts at the LTSA with skilled tradesmen.

After reading the previous comments I'd suggest the following:-
1) Raise the c@r driving age to 21
2) Make the molyped riding age 14 (think it works OK in France and everyone knows the French are excellent drivers <g>...just look at Alonso)
3) Let em ride 150cc motorsickles at 16
4) Mibby let em ride summit with SV650 type power weight ratio for 2 years after they pass the full test.
5) Raise the alcomohol drinking age to 25!
6) Legalise cannabis

As well as preventing drink driving, step 6 will keep the (obese) kids occupied instead of "tagging" local buildings, setting up 'P' labs or doing burnouts in their dad's holden.

Oh dear...maybe the poisonous spider I sat on has made me a fuckw!t.

georgiepie
9th August 2006, 00:51
I think 15 is a reasonable age to get a licence as it gives the opportunity to be under parents thumb for as long as possible. If you were to start driving at age 18, who supervises driving when you've moved away for uni or gone flatting.
And wouldn't it be sensible to have a power limit on the car a learner is allowed to drive, similar to the 250cc restriction for a motorbike licence?

Lou Girardin
9th August 2006, 08:42
The problem with 15 as a licencing age is that, while 15 year olds have a relatively low accident rate, it's after 18 months to 2 years that confidence overcomes ability and they become a menace on the road. Raising the age 2 or 3 years delays the onset of that dangerous period until a little maturity has started to develop. Alowing 16 year olds to buy small bikes will give them an option if they must have transport, and also gives them valuable experience as a 'vulnerable' road user. Graduated licencing with vehicle restrictions will further reduce the risk factors for new drivers.
The arguement about 15 year olds needing to drive for work/study doesn't bear examination in the rest of the world. NZ isn't any different.

Hitcher
9th August 2006, 09:30
If you did drink and drive/ride i would have to KICK YOUR ASS!!
Donkey abuse and naff Americanisms are offensive to the loyal and resilient membership of the BDOTGNZA!

McJim
9th August 2006, 09:52
The statistics being thrown at us by the current 'Safe As' campaign clearly show that 15-18 year olds are responsible for a disproportionate amount of road traffic accidents - if revenue gathering were not the REAL issue then lifting ther driving age to 18 or 21 would cause the accident statistics to plummet!
It's just such a shame that the government once again refuses to accept the findings of it's own reports, is stupid enough to publicise the reports along with it's half arsed interpretation of 9% of the results of the report blatently disregarding the remaining 81%.

Why isn't there a Motorcyclists' Political Party? We need specific representation in Parliament.

Animal
9th August 2006, 10:21
G'day all,

I grew up in South Africa. The country was crap in a thousand respects, but I do believe the motor vehicle licensing system was better than here in NZ, and made for a safer progression towards responsible and safe road users.

You could only get a bike learners at age 16 BUT the bike had to be under 50cc capacity. You could only sit your full license test after 6 months, and had to wait another 3 months if you flunked the test. If you flunked it again, you had to wait a further 6 months before resitting the test. If you somehow managed to flunk it a third time, you were deemed beyond hope and you had a shitshow of EVER getting another chance to resit. Being South Africa, bribery would help in some instances, but you also ran the risk of being jailed for attempting to bribe an official (make that a thousand and one reasons). There wasn't a 'restricted' license stage, like here.

So, you rode your 49cc heap to death for 2 years because you could only get a 'big bike' learners at age 18, and again, sit the full license test after 6 months. The same flunk rules (as above) applied here. Here was the only flaw in the system... a large number of bikers died a couple of days after their 18th birthdays because they could legally ride ANYTHING and traded their 50s in on 1100s! I'm guilty of this too, except mine was a 900. But you see my point?

You had to be age 17 to get a car learners and age 18 to get your full, hence 12 months as a car 'learner'. You couldn't carry passengers other than a fully licenced driver in the shotgun seat, and the cops would fine you BOTH into near bankrupcy for any infringement. The traffic cops (a separate force to the regular cops) were - and probably still are - the nastiest, least sympathetic and savage force in the universe, and had enormous powers of arrest and vehicle seizure. These guys took crap from NOBODY, and bikers were inevitably a target because there was so much they could bust us on!

Being forced to wait for half our teen years made us appreciate our 50cc bikes when wecould eventually ride them. Being only marginally faster than bicycles, we were at the mercy of everything else on the road, so we learnt REAL defensive driving skills, not the half-arsed test touted here as defensive driving training. After 12 months of forced road and hazard awareness, we could get our car learners, and only after a further 12 months could we ride bigger bikes.

The result was this... we were far more mature, aware, defensive, tolerant and considerate drivers - and riders - than the 15 year olds I see 'driving' here. After spending a year of dodging every car, truck and bus on the road as a 50 rider, then another year of training as a car learner, we were better equipped to share the road with everyone else. We weren't a menace or a danger to ourselves or anyone else. I'm not saying that there weren't MVAs and the inevitable fatalities and injures, but the risk of being wiped out by an immature 15 year old viewing the road (occasionally) through the gap between the dashboard and the steering wheel of a seriously powerful car was significantly less than it is in NZ!

I propose raising the learner age to age 17, and only permitting a full license at 18. Restrict the cars that can be driven to 1300cc until age 20, 1600cc to age 22, 2 litre to age 25 - and prohibit driving of turbcharged cars to age 25. At 25, drivers will have reached the levels of maturity and responsibility to make the roads safer for everyone.

Any thoughts?

Cheers for now!

CADanimal

Ixion
9th August 2006, 11:34
The statistics being thrown at us by the current 'Safe As' campaign clearly show that 15-18 year olds are responsible for a disproportionate amount of road traffic accidents - if revenue gathering were not the REAL issue then lifting ther driving age to 18 or 21 would cause the accident statistics to plummet!
It's just such a shame that the government once again refuses to accept the findings of it's own reports, is stupid enough to publicise the reports along with it's half arsed interpretation of 9% of the results of the report blatently disregarding the remaining 81%.

Why isn't there a Motorcyclists' Political Party? We need specific representation in Parliament.

But are they really? Everybody keeps saying that, but is it true? Especially once you factor out the inexperience bit ie is it because they are young or because they are inexperienced?

Has anyone ever seen any studies comparing new drivers of different ages ? I suspect that raising the licence age to 18 will just shove the "blip" up the ladder by three years. And insurance companies reckon that it's not until about 25 that "maturity", or fuddiduddiness takes over. Which is not practical

And anyway, are young drivers really that bad? Most I encounter are OK. The ratio of idiots seems no worse than other age groups, just maybe a different sort of idiocy.

Last weekend, 10 dead. I don't think there were any young drivers involved, but there were quite a few truck drivers. We don't hear a burst of indignation about truck drivers,and call to raise the driving age for trucks. Why do the public seem to want to dump on the kids?

One point I will grant, is that most of the problems with young 'uns seem to be when they get several of them together in car. And they start showing off , and egging each other on (as we all did at that age). So why not just a minor change to the rules, no passengers under 21? Still allows Mum and Dad, and allows use of the vehicle for work etc.

oldrider
9th August 2006, 12:24
Driving should be judged and licenced on capability, competence and consequence.

1) Either you can or you can not.

2) You demonstrate a predetermined tangible standard of practical driving and knowledge of the road code.

3) You stuff up and it gets cancelled for a determined period.

4) It all starts again.

Age should be of no real consideration or consequence.

I voted 15, it worked for me but I could drive a variety of vehicles long before that.

People are individuals and not able to be type cast by age alone.

Show me proof that all 15 year olds are at the same degree of maturity and development and I may reconsider my opinion. :yes: Cheers John.

Lou Girardin
9th August 2006, 12:29
Young drivers are a danger for various reasons, some physiological, some psychological.
The decision making processes are not fully developed in a 15 year old. Neither is an appreciation of consequences.
They are basically not ready or able to cope with modern traffic and vehicles.
In years past, cars were slower, traffic was a lot less. There was more room for error. When I think of my own escapades, I'm sure I wouldn't get off scot free doing those things in modern times.
Can you imagine doing a 180 degree spin across two lanes of Tamaki Drive and not hitting anything today?

scumdog
9th August 2006, 13:19
From http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3757572a11,00.html

His family lives about a 30-minute drive from Rangiora, where he goes to school, and he has been driving on the farm since he was 11.

"I need [my licence] it so I don't have to sit around the house all day – so I can go for a drive and see my mates," he said.

Need a licence my arse. Ride a bicycle you lazy shit.

True, true - and I pissed myself when I read his comment "most 15 year olds are mature enought to drive" mwahahahaha! yep and you see SO many of those 15 year olds running the country too!

Sheesh, how the hell would any 15 year old know what constitutes 'mature'?????

Ixion
9th August 2006, 13:33
Well, one year later they're reckoned mature enough to have and raise babies.

scumdog
9th August 2006, 13:38
Well, one year later they're reckoned mature enough to have and raise babies.

But us oldies know the ain't.

So why do we let them? - oh that's right, they have them anyway!

McJim
9th August 2006, 15:09
The results of the poll are very telling - It would be good if there was a national referendum on the subject!

As with all good threads it's polarizing the opinions nicely with some good points being made by both sides.

The comment I'd like to mention is "not ALL 15 year olds are bad drivers" (but then again not ALL Speeders are dangerous and I'm sure you'll find someone to say not ALL drunk drivers are dangerous) but we must have one law to apply to all so if the majority of a particular subsection are dangerous then for the good of the public the legislation can only be fair if it affects the whole subsection in question.

On this occasion theis is not actually my point of view but I thought it needed to be said.

I didn't start driving until I was 32 by the way - never felt the need to - figured if I got a car I'd have to stop drinking. In the past 4 years I have drunk the equivalent of 2 night's worth when I was 21. I miss the beer.

MikeyG
9th August 2006, 16:02
I think it depends on the licencing system. At the moment you can get you learners at 15 but without doing courses most people only have their full licenses at 18. It would suck to be a learner at 18 b'cos by then you are away from home and don't really have someone to be the licensed driver/supervisor.

If it was like Austria where you just do 40 hours of lessons then get your full then I'd say 18

McJim
9th August 2006, 16:08
Predominantly the problem is not perceived as being skill or ability but rather attitude and judgement - there are plenty of examples where 15 year olds excel with motorsports but still plenty of accidents caused by the incautious attitude of youngsters.

Scumdogs' mention of the fact that they go ahead and have kids at 16 is quite a good analogy here.

Just coz 16 year olds are good in bed (allegedly) doesn't mean they can do it sensibly!:killingme

Lou Girardin
9th August 2006, 16:17
Just coz 16 year olds are good in bed (allegedly) doesn't mean they can do it sensibly!:killingme

No they're not, you have to teach 'em everything.

McJim
9th August 2006, 16:19
No they're not, you have to teach 'em everything.
Nah man - you're just lazy - the teachin's the fun bit!

The_Dover
9th August 2006, 16:22
Where I come from the 16 year old girls have been round the block more times than the Link bus.

And they know the root.

McJim
9th August 2006, 16:31
Where I come from the 16 year old girls have been round the block more times than the Link bus.

And they know the root.
No Disrespect Dover but where you come from even the livestock's been round the block more than the bus....I didn't know they had buses where you come from...'cept the post bus eh?:doobey:

The_Dover
9th August 2006, 16:41
Mate, we got two buses a day going to town.

The 8am and the 1pm.

It's only a 5 mile walk to the bus stop too.

granma2
9th August 2006, 20:36
Yep I was about 6yrs old when my Dad let me steer the car up the driveway sitting on his knee. By 10 I was learning to ride his Suzuki 50cc scooter around the house.:scooter: I had my first car at 14yrs and could drive the thing anywhere. It was a 1953 Ford Prefect. I was the most popular kid on the block!!!! Yes we also tried to do dumb things in these old bombs, but they were slow and solid. I had my first motorbike at 15yrs, which I bought myself , much to my mothers disgust.:
It is too easy for 15-20 yr olds to buy fast cars these days. They do not have the skills to keep them under control at high speed.
My suggestion is too limit the cc rating that a young or inexperienced person can buy, own or drive. No modification allowed.
We have to ride a bike 250cc or less when we first get a bike licence, so why cant they be restricted too.
Granma.

scumdog
9th August 2006, 20:56
I think it depends on the licencing system. At the moment you can get you learners at 15 but without doing courses most people only have their full licenses at 18. It would suck to be a learner at 18 b'cos by then you are away from home and don't really have someone to be the licensed driver/supervisor.

If it was like Austria where you just do 40 hours of lessons then get your full then I'd say 18

Never got my licence until I was 18 - and then still had no need for it for a while.

And back then you needed 2/3 of full price for hire-purchase on a car (1/2 on a ute) AND if under 21 you needed parental consent for the hire-purchase

Kinda stopped a lot of guys getting into late model fast cars - and more importantl stopped them getting into hock up to their eye-balls at an early age.

And Dover, do any buses ever get back from town??:confused: :spudwhat:

chanceyy
9th August 2006, 21:01
got my license within a few days of turning 15 .. first car was a humber .. good size solid, not able to do ridiculous speeds.. :scooter:

part of the issue today is young ppl getting licenses, able to drive sardine cans @ extremely high speeds, then we will not go down the road of peer pressure.:gob:

In this day & age with faster lighter vechiles being readily available, lifting the age may be a good thing, however I do not believe that it will reduce the accidents as some mature early others don't .. the ones who don't are the ones who speed, crash, die, or cause others to die ... :nono:

chanceyy
9th August 2006, 21:03
Never got my licence until I was 18 - and then still had no need for it for a while.

And back then you needed 2/3 of full price for hire-purchase on a car (1/2 on a ute) AND if under 21 you needed parental consent for the hire-purchase

Kinda stopped a lot of guys getting into late model fast cars - and more importantl stopped them getting into hock up to their eye-balls at an early age.



Unless you have parents buying the late model fast cars ... see quite a few of them around !!!! then they modify them even more ...

oldrider
9th August 2006, 21:05
Look here, the kids are smothered with rules now and it doesn't work.

Take away most of the rules and make "them" more responsible for their actions but make the consequences real and mean something when they fuck up!

Get some consistency into the "justice" system, back the cops policing the law and make the ones who break the rules really pay.

Too much pussy footing around with this PC shit.

When I was a kid, you fucked up, Plod kicked your arse and you knew why.

Sometimes he got it wrong but you had so much respect for him that you just shrugged it off as a bad day.

Too many rules to police and not enough cops to police them just breeds contempt for the law and the poor bastards trying to uphold it.

Not even mentioning the pathetic bloody judges and shifty frigging lawyers!!

That reminds me, bloody ZOWIE is STILL here! this country is getting more pathetic every day! :nono: John.

Edbear
9th August 2006, 21:22
Kinda stopped a lot of guys getting into late model fast cars:


Oh I don't know, my Superminx could do 85mph....!:blip:

scumdog
9th August 2006, 21:31
Oh I don't know, my Superminx could do 85mph....!:blip:

Almost as fast as my 1949 F1 V8 truck!!

And we ARE talking early 70's here aren't we??:wait:

Edbear
9th August 2006, 21:36
And we ARE talking early 70's here aren't we??:wait:



Shhhhhhhh! You'll start them off on the "oldies" thing again!:shutup:

Ixion
9th August 2006, 21:59
Oh I don't know, my Superminx could do 85mph....!:blip:

Oh, you scorcher! My Humber 10 could JUST be coaxed to 45mph, down hill, but the experience was too terrifying to repeat. I settled for a sedate 40mph.

Which probably explains the problem today.

Edbear
9th August 2006, 22:14
Oh, you scorcher! My Humber 10 could JUST be coaxed to 45mph, down hill, but the experience was too terrifying to repeat. I settled for a sedate 40mph.

Which probably explains the problem today.



Yep! Just like my Bradford! Then I stepped up to a CA Bedford which was a rocket at 60mph! Then the Humber 80 which could top 75!!!! My 6/80 Wolseley was a revelation - I could cruise at 75 and wind it off the clock at 95mph! Don't know how we survived such dangerous machines!:gob:

muzz
9th August 2006, 23:18
I think 15 is a good age to start learning to drive.
But I think they should be limited to a certain HP rating until there driving record has been proven. A demerit points system clean licence until your 18 and you can step up a grade to full licence.
Plus some defensive driving courses thrown in.
For motorcycles or cars.
The earlier you learn the more experience you will have.
How many parents teach there kids their A B C's before sending them off to school?. Early learning works.

nezorf
10th August 2006, 20:17
i started driving a cage on my 15th birth day, got my licence and was on my learners for 1 full year the got my restricted been on that about 8 months, i think as long as you are taught properly it should be fine, i drive with passengers on my r licence i know there is a fine if caught, but i dont care, i drive save, and a 1.5L mitsi nana car most of the time i drive safer with people in the car, i am more allert and carefull with others in the car, sum time when i drive my my self i just drive and dont think and i snap my self out of it as soon a i relise. the onjly problem for nz licence system is that ppl at 15 16 drive 2+L turbo jap crap cares that are not safe and try to show off:nono: stupid F*#KERS

hurricane_r
12th August 2006, 14:39
well im 18 and now have full car licence, restricted bike licence, class 2 learners and a defensive drivers cert, i drive for a living, if it was 17 or 18 i would have none of these, depends on imature persons, not all of us are irrosponsible

Free Rider
12th August 2006, 15:35
I say put it up to 17 or 18 years old to get their license.

I said it at my table at the SAFE AS workshop in Hamilton, but the rest bombarded me down... (3 were bikers).

I see so many young kids get behind a wheel and they cant even see over the steering wheel, and no they havent put the seat into the lying down postition either.
So if they cant even see over the steering wheel, how the hell can they even see the road. That is just one example.

Another is they are getting these turbo boosted vehicles and racing around in them. They get in them and they think WOHOOOO I can drive this and I dont care of the consquenceses left behind.

Sure there are one or two that are the exemption (C of CaN) but most do NOT know how to handle these machines.

I got my car license at 17 (closer to 18) and to me that is a better age than 15.
I got my bike license not long after that.
I went and got my HT a few years ago.

I even busted my own daughter taking other passengers in her car as they all piled into her car after school... Yep I pulled up behind the car and hauled each and everyone out of the car. Yep My daughter was so pissed off at me... BUT I will not be having to tell the other kids parents that my daughter injured or killed someone else's child. I made each one promise me that they wouldnt get back in that car. They didnt either, I scared the shit out of them.

Was I mean........ NO... I was saving lives... and my daughter sure learnt not to do it again. All kids try it on by carrying other around in the car when they shouldn't.
A few months later she thanked me for doing it.

Last night as I was in a car and I saw a cop pull over a car full of young girls just past Dairy Flat, what is the bet the driver wasnt meant to be carrying passengers... they were very young looked around 15 or 16.

So I say take it up to 17 or 18.

No Way!! i dont think they should put it up.. i now have my licence at 15 so it doesnt matter to me.. but i know what it would be like for other people waitin to turn 15 and then having the age limit taken up to 17-18.. i got my licence on my birthday :D both car n bike.