Speed cameras stats, important ammunition for the revenue gathering fight

[23226]

very interesting statistics (http://www.safespeed.org.uk/trl595.html)

accident injury rates increased with the amount of speed cameras !

The uk authorities have tried to hide this information but it appears to have been obtained and published.

Also see :

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2298468.html

Bottom line speed cameras dont work, displaying driver numberplate information with a plate XTY124 you are speeding warning however does seem to modify peoples behaviour.


I am keen to get home and help with some of this.

[Edbear]

It doesn't really make sense. Why would the precence of speed cameras increase the PIA? Why, and how, could they make accidents worse?

One can argue the motives behind their use and the politics, but I can't see that they could cause worse accidents.

[23226]

All I can say is the numbers dont lie.

Trying to extrapolate the whys from the stats is another exercise altogether.

Bottom line is IF the government is interested in really reducing injuries this report should be brought to their attention.

[Squeak the Rat]

Every time i see a speed camera or a cop I brake unless I had glanced at my speedometer in the previous two seconds. All these people paranoid about getting demerits + a fine for a minor infringement doing this cannot be safe.

Speed cameras slow down the traffic flow - in the area directly around the camera only.

[Fat Tony]

It doesn't really make sense. Why would the precence of speed cameras increase the PIA? Why, and how, could they make accidents worse?

The general standard of driving in the UK is falling dramatically. I don't know if that's an ageing population thing, or due to the number of immigrants that come over and drive without proper training and in many cases without licences. I'm sure that may have something to do with the accident stats.

Having said that, many drivers just don't concentrate on their surroundings and have no idea of what the posted limit is on many occasions and as soon as they see a camera they slam the anchors on and drop down to 30mph, without a second thought for what's behind them, even on roads posted with a 60mph limit. They just haven't a clue and then fixate on watching the speedo rather than the road. I've seen articles actually advising pedestrians NOT to attempt to cross roads in the vicinity of GATSO cameras for this very reason.

Cameras do one thing: catch vehicles exceeding the speed limit. They DO NOT detect bad or dangerous driving - just generate income in many cases - you only have to see where they are located to see that.

[Ixion]

Well, I think of a couple of rational reasons that could explain the observation.

Probably the most cogent is the effect of cameras on traffic flow.

There is compelling evidence that one of the most significant contributors to road crashes is speed DIFFERENTIAL. And the worst of all is a bunched differential, where most traffic is moving at the same speed but some traffic is going a bit faster.

That is, it is far safer to have traffic either (a) all going about the same speed, whether that be 80kph or 150kph OR (b) have most traffic travelling at a consistent speed (of whatever) and occasional fast traffic travelling MUCH faster .So that the fast cars come up to the slower moving vehicles and are past and gone.

Probably (I'm guessing here) one of the main reasons that differential speed is dangerous is that it makes it hard for traffic entering a stream (eg at an intersection), or overtaking, to correctly judge the speed of oncoming traffic. When everyone around you is going at 100kph it's very easy to assume that the oncoming guy is doing the same speed as the rest of the traffic. And pull out in front of him (incidentally, can this be the reason for all the head ons lately). Oh dear he was actually doing 120. BANG. Whereas a MUCH faster vehicle is obviously moving real fast "Oh , no wait dear, there's an idiot on a motorcycle coming at a ridiculous speed".

Now, the presence of speed cameras is going to slow MOST traffic down to approximately legal limit. but there will still be some vehicles that will ignore the camera risk/not know about it, and proceed rather faster. Causing a bunched differential effect

Remove the cameras, and traffic will start to flow at varying speeds. Bunching disappears, and the "he must be doing the same speed as everyone else" trap also.

Another very possible reason relates to overtaking. It is manifestly obvious that being on the wrong side of the road is very dangerous. So the less time spent there the safer it is. But if drivers are obsessed with not exceeding a speed limit, they are likely to overtake slowly, increasing their exposure time to danger. BANG

Or, it could be that when drivers start fixating on their speed, because of cameras, they actually INCREASE speed. I'm pretty sure this happens. Mabel is quite happy pottering along at 80kph, the limit of her competance. Until someone starts chivvying her about speed. "Oh are you sure you're not going too fast, you don't want to get a ticket from one of those cameras". "No, dear, in fact now that I look at the speedometer - which I don't normally do, because I drive so slowly- I see I'm well under the speed limit. I suppose I better go a bit faster". So not only will speed cameras cause an increase in average speed in some circumstances, but (a) that increase will probably be on the least safe roads (cos that is why people were going slowly to start with) and (b) the increase will probably take some people beyond their competance limits.

Or, the simple one,boredom. People drive fast, they feel a bit on edge, pay attention to what their doing. If they perceive they are going slowly they lose focus , start daydreaming, looking at the scenery etc. BANG. "Oh sorry mate, didn't see you"

Not saying that any of these are THE reasons. But I suggest that all or any are quite plausible explanations of the noted facts.

Human behaviour is seldom simple. And speed limits don't always do what simplistic thinking would suggest.

Oddly, I'd suggest that if you had NO speed limits, safe drivers would be safer. But incompetant drivers would be safer too, because they would feel less need to "drive up" to a speed limit.

I think that if you removed the speed limits an awful lot of traffic in NZ would settle down to about 80kph.

[dhunt]

Every time i see a speed camera or a cop I brake unless I had glanced at my speedometer in the previous two seconds. All these people paranoid about getting demerits + a fine for a minor infringement doing this cannot be safe.

exactly - I spend so much time looking at the stupid speedo that I think my riding is a lot more dangerous than prior to my getting a couple taxings in a row as don't pay near as much attention to the road now.

I'm very tempted to get a radar detector so that hopefully I can speed a little less time looking at the speedo and lots more time looking at the road.

[Lou Girardin]

One of the reasons for the increase in the accident rate among the "Road Safety Partnership" areas, is that Police patrol numbers have been reduced. They are relying on cameras for enforcement. Some of the worst figures come from South Wales, where the Police Chief is rabidly anti-speed. He'd fit in well here.
The areas that haven't adopted this strategy haven't had the same issue. (Despite what D50 says)
So that visible Police presence has fallen, detection of offences other than speed is negligible, and driving standards slip.

[Fat Tony]

One of the reasons for the increase in the accident rate among the "Road Safety Partnership" areas, is that Police patrol numbers have been reduced. They are relying on cameras for enforcement. Some of the worst figures come from South Wales, where the Police Chief is rabidly anti-speed. He'd fit in well here.
The areas that haven't adopted this strategy haven't had the same issue. (Despite what D50 says)
So that visible Police presence has fallen, detection of offences other than speed is negligible, and driving standards slip.

Spot on - it's madness

[The_Dover]

The general standard of driving in the UK is falling dramatically. I don't know if that's an ageing population thing, or due to the number of immigrants that come over and drive without proper training and in many cases without licences. I'm sure that may have something to do with the accident stats.


It's all the fucking kiwi's going over there. None of the bastards can drive.

[Jantar]

Or maybe the reason why accident numbers have increased with an increase in speed camera numbers is much simpler than all of the reasons given here.

It is simply that there is no link. The two can happen completely indepently of each other. It is just as much nonsense to claim that speed cameras save lives as it is to say that speed cameras cause accidents.

Speed cameras are there to gain revenue. This is something they do very well. They have no other effect on the motoring public.

[Lou Girardin]

It's all the fucking kiwi's going over there. None of the bastards can drive.

Jeez, that's rich coming from you, Autumn Leaves.

[SPman]

There have also been some roads in th UK where the local Constabulary dropped speed limits from 60 to 30 mph, for no reason that most people could see.... then lined the road with Gatsos.
Drivers got so frustrated that there were large increases in accidents and fatalities - and massive revenue increases when drivers weren't having headons!

[23226]

Or maybe the reason why accident numbers have increased with an increase in speed camera numbers is much simpler than all of the reasons given here.

It is simply that there is no link. The two can happen completely indepently of each other. It is just as much nonsense to claim that speed cameras save lives as it is to say that speed cameras cause accidents.

Speed cameras are there to gain revenue. This is something they do very well. They have no other effect on the motoring public.

I disagree, it makes people fear for their monetary existence when they try to perform the seemingly simple act of trying to get from a to b under their own power.

As pointed out above , focusing on the speedo vs the surrounding drivers and conditions or trying to figure out 'is this where the camera is going to be' doesnt help people.

It hinders them, I would rather a group of alert drivers travelling at a speed appropriate for the conditions and checking mirrors and periperahal hazards etc every few seconds than having them gawking at their speedos every few secs.

The focus is all wrong, but I guess most non braindead people can figure that out who have been driving for a few years.
( unless they are gov / traffic social policy experts; clearly )

[Edbear]

The general standard of driving in the UK is falling dramatically. I don't know if that's an ageing population thing, or due to the number of immigrants that come over and drive without proper training and in many cases without licences. I'm sure that may have something to do with the accident stats.

Having said that, many drivers just don't concentrate on their surroundings and have no idea of what the posted limit is on many occasions and as soon as they see a camera they slam the anchors on and drop down to 30mph, without a second thought for what's behind them, even on roads posted with a 60mph limit. They just haven't a clue and then fixate on watching the speedo rather than the road. I've seen articles actually advising pedestrians NOT to attempt to cross roads in the vicinity of GATSO cameras for this very reason.

Cameras do one thing: catch vehicles exceeding the speed limit. They DO NOT detect bad or dangerous driving - just generate income in many cases - you only have to see where they are located to see that.



Funny! Sounds just like NZ!:yes:

[mattp]

It's all the fucking kiwi's going over there. None of the bastards can drive.

This is funny and a laugh :whistle: . But I do agree that my riding has improved a lot more since getting back into bikes after leaving NZ. Also what I remember of the NZ roads there was very little roads as good as the likes of the A24, A29, A272, A49, etc :scooter:

[Speedracer]

Or, the simple one,boredom. People drive fast, they feel a bit on edge, pay attention to what their doing. If they perceive they are going slowly they lose focus , start daydreaming, looking at the scenery etc.

I guess I'm a bit guilty of that! Looking out for speed cams keeps you on edge too. Although its a bit ghey when you see them in your rear view mirror cos they were hiding off the road. mumblemumble:Police:mumblemumble

[spudchucka]

All I can say is the numbers dont lie.

Thats funny because they do every time they get quoted by the Govt or the police. As soon as the cops or any other agency quote stats all you hear is how the numbers mean shit all because they can be manipulated this way or that but when they are quoted to prove a point against a Govt agency you get "the numbers don't lie" thrown at you.

[Jantar]

No, Numbers do not lie, statistics do. Raw numbers will are just that, numbers. Statistics is a method of presenting those numbers in a way that suits whatever argument you are trying to put forward. :yes:

[spudchucka]

When he referred to "the numbers" it was obvious that he was referring to the "statistics" quoted in his first post.

[Finn]

Spud, take that silly cap off and think for yourself for a change. Ticketing does not reduce the road toll.

[spudchucka]

Spud, take that silly cap off and think for yourself for a change. Ticketing does not reduce the road toll.

Was that what I was saying? I thought this was about how the numbers don't lie?

If you read back through all the posts on this site you might realise that I'm not a supporter of speed cameras.

Try taking your own silly cap off and let go of your need to slag off at a cop at any opportunity.

[Finn]

Try taking your own silly cap off and let go of your need to slag off at a cop at any opportunity.

You're onto me. Actually you're the only cop I slag.

Feeeeeeel the love.

[spudchucka]

You're onto me. Actually you're the only cop I slag.

Feeeeeeel the love.

I feel so honoured.

[pritch]

As soon as the cops or any other agency quote stats all you hear is how the numbers mean shit all because they can be manipulated this way or that but when they are quoted to prove a point against a Govt agency you get "the numbers don't lie" thrown at you.

Sadly the numbers are all too often manipulated. I do not wish to consider myself a cynic, but where statistics from several Departments (including but by no means limited to the Police) are concerned, I could not regard them other than with suspicion.

One reason given for why speed cameras might actually cause accidents in Britain related to schools. A while back Gatsos were to be placed outside urban schools, the concern was then that drivers would be looking up for cameras and not looking out for little kids.

[spudchucka]

Sadly the numbers are all too often manipulated. I do not wish to consider myself a cynic, but where statistics from several Departments (including but by no means limited to the Police) are concerned, I could not regard them other than with suspicion.

So Safespeed.org.uk, an organisation that clearly has an agenda it actively pushes, is a completly reliable source of statistics? Smells like bullshit to me.

[classic zed]

This is funny and a laugh :whistle: . But I do agree that my riding has improved a lot more since getting back into bikes after leaving NZ. Also what I remember of the NZ roads there was very little roads as good as the likes of the A24, A29, A272, A49, etc :scooter:

aaahhh the A272 Midhurst to Winchester a nice road indeed, I have travelled it many times when I lived in the UK, sadly a bad accident there a few weeks ago, 2 bikes head on, 2 dead 2 critical

http://www.violetdesigns.co.uk/midhurst.htm

Big debate at the bottom of the web page.

There is also a link to a website with a DVD offer showing an advanced riding video based on the Police driver training, video in a good price but you can get free clips on the site. Downloadable fact sheets too.

http://www.mikewaite.co.uk/

I might just have to order one

[McJim]

So Safespeed.org.uk, an organisation that clearly has an agenda it actively pushes, is a completly reliable source of statistics? Smells like bullshit to me.

Seems simply a case of fighting fire with fire - one side of the argument provides statistics then the other side of the argument provides statistics. If neither side provided statistics how would we know if the measures are working or are in fact causing accidents?

The only reason for all this is because we, as a nation speed. And furthermore we, as a nation enjoy speeding - we will therefore, as a nation try to justify speeding at every turn because it provides us with a cause that can unite us and make us feel that warm glow of cameraderie that only a shared cause can give us.

Taking it as a personal affront coz you're a police officer is accepting abuse that wasn't aimed at you - very big of you but not very worthwhile.

I speed from time to time - but haven't been caught...yet. It's a risk we take when we're prepared to pay the price. If you're not prepared to pay the price then my advice is don't speed. Also every time I go back to the UK I effectively have a back up to having my drivers licence suspended coz I can still use my UK licence for a year after each arrival. Cool.

[scumdog]

All I can say is the numbers dont lie.

Trying to extrapolate the whys from the stats is another exercise altogether.

Bottom line is IF the government is interested in really reducing injuries this report should be brought to their attention.


Maybe the figures would be more worser if it were not for the speed camers??

[scumdog]

Spud, take that silly cap off and think for yourself for a change. Ticketing does not reduce the road toll.

No, but it makes HEAPS of money from silly pricks that don't know when to speed and when NOT to speed!:yes: :dodge:

[Finn]

No, but it makes HEAPS of money from silly pricks that don't know when to speed and when NOT to speed!:yes: :dodge:

I'm glad you think highly of me then, with my 0 demerit points.

[Lil_Byte]

All I can say is the numbers dont lie.

Trying to extrapolate the whys from the stats is another exercise altogether.

Bottom line is IF the government is interested in really reducing injuries this report should be brought to their attention.


Of course numbers lie. Don't you know any accountants:Punk:

[spudchucka]

Taking it as a personal affront coz you're a police officer is accepting abuse that wasn't aimed at you - very big of you but not very worthwhile.

Personal affront? No, not at all. I just find peoples attitudes interesting and this "the numbers don't lie" business just represents how one mans truth can be another mans fertilizer.