Automatic motorcycle trannies?

[jrandom]

See http://www.motorcycledaily.com/09june04_floorboards.htm

Now, you'll never get *me* on any two-wheeled contraption with an automatic transmission, but I can see how this would improve penetration into the large marketplace of people who dislike the idea of a Proper Motorcycle. Such as my sister, for instance, who becomes utterly aghast when considering the necessity of using both hands and both feet to handle five separate control inputs while remaining upright and balanced on two wheels.

I reckon it's a good idea, and if the bike manufacturers manage to get these things selling, more power to them.

[FROSTY]

Way back in the 70's honda did an automatic cb750/4
It never took off.
Some of those super scooters do pretty well as motorcycles -and they actually handle too

[Kickaha]

Way back in the 70's honda did an automatic cb750/4
It never took off.
Some of those super scooters do pretty well as motorcycles -and they actually handle too


MotoGuzzi did one as well,although I think it was two speed.

[vifferman]

And then there was the Rokon (an Amurkn murdersickel) that had a big torque-convertor thang, a bit like the ones on scooters.

[R6_kid]

I rode a 1976 Vespa for just under a year, prefered a four speed manual over any 50cc twist and go. As for comfort, i havent really noticed a difference since changing to a bike. If you need to move your legs on a long ride you can, i will often be seen with my legs sticking out in random directions, or streched out in front like i was on a cruiser (but without the pegs). I never liked autos, only for cars in traffic etc, but on a bike, i prefer to have better control over my speed so my need for a manual transmission remains paramount.

[Les]

Was just reading through an old issue of Kiwi Rider and saw an article on the Gilera Fero 850 V-twin sport bike prototype with a fully auto trannie. There's also the option of changing the gears "manually" with push buttons. Sounds interesting...wonder if it'll get into production? Me'd like to have a go on one...

[wkid_one]

Fuck - with the engine braking I use - I would be in a ditch at the first corner with an auto!

[Mongoose]

MotoGuzzi did one as well,although I think it was two speed.
No doubt some one will corect me if I am wrong, but i think the Guzzi was a two speed manual AND two speed auto. Manually select low for around town and Hi(or second) for open road riding.

[DEATH_INC.]

Husky (can't spell huscqvar.....huscavar...huskqav..$%$it!)did an auto MXer back in the 70's/80's....and honda did a 400 twin auto too.....

[bungbung]

Len Southward has a 215 Rover V8 powered thing with a 3 speed autobox.

[Dr Bob]

I think that there is a place for an auto bike, if for example one day I lose the ability to use all of my limbs then it will be very handy. Also, there are people who are too stupid to use the limbs that they have already got - ie. the inability to use an indicator when they are driving a very large car, if they were on a bike instead of in a car that would reduce the overall mass of random objects on the road.

[FROSTY]

It'd be interesting to see one of those super scooters converted into a "real" road bike.I think itd be a hit with the commuters

[pete376403]

No doubt some one will corect me if I am wrong, but i think the Guzzi was a two speed manual AND two speed auto. Manually select low for around town and Hi(or second) for open road riding.Moto Guzzi Convert - was a conventional two speed manual box behind a torque converter. No manual clutch, and no auto change (it stayed in the gear it was put in)
The Honda CB750A was a true hydraulic auto with auto up and down shifts. Rokon used variable diameter pulleys with belt drive (the DAF system) and would have been good if it hadn't been affected by water (it was a trail type bike) making the belts slip.
The Husqvarna system used a conventional 4 speed box and a number of centrifugal clutches (what would you expect when Husqvarna make chainsaws)

[Motu]

I think there could be a case for the Tiptronic type autos we are seeing in cars these days - just a paddle to flip for up and down changes,a lockup converter could provide engine braking...you read it here first.

It's been done before of course - The auto used in BMC (Morris,Austin etc) was a full auto but also had the option of individual gear selection.I've always thought one would make a good power plant for a sidecar.

[svs]

I think there could be a case for the Tiptronic type autos we are seeing in cars these days - just a paddle to flip for up and down changes,a lockup converter could provide engine braking...you read it here first.


..like a quickshifter then....

saab had a 'clutchless' manual a few years back. I wonder what happened to that. clutch was electronically operated when the gear lever was moved. I had a test drive in one, and you could shift really quickly.

[Motu]

Shit,we could go back even further to the ''Standrive'' :killingme wow,this was a gem,used on Series II Morris Oxfords too.Using some sort of centrifical clutch,I'm not sure - they had a button on the gearlever - floor for the Standard 10 and column for the Oxford - that you pressed then changed gear without a clutch.VW had a similar system a few years later.Hillmans had the Smiths Drive - an electro mechanical gearbox that died a very quick death.Rover had a ''freewheel'',a fancy version of Maori Overdrive - wind a big knob and it would coast when you throttled off,so you could make clutchless shifts....down hills in a very overweight Rover 90 with drum brakes in ''free wheel'' :bye:

[pete376403]

I have a service manual for the Smiths "Easidrive" electric box. Only in England, eh? The equivalent of the hydraulic torque converter was filled with iron powder, and when magnetized it would lock the two halves together. Varying the magnetism controlled the amount of slippage. No electronics of course, all controlled by switches, relays and rheostats. Only one thing could have been worse - the same thing made by Lucas. Just as well magnetic tape cassette and mag stripe credit cards hadn't been invented at that time -one ride and everything would have been wiped.
Rootes seemed to like being at the bleeding edge of automatics - they adopted the Borg Warner 45 before anyone else, so suffered all the pain.

[vifferman]

..like a quickshifter then....

saab had a 'clutchless' manual a few years back. I wonder what happened to that. clutch was electronically operated when the gear lever was moved. I had a test drive in one, and you could shift really quickly.
And then there was a similar system fitted to the NSU Ro80 back in the 70s.
The "Selespeed" on the Fiats and Alfas is like that too.
But who here has driven a car with a Tiptronic style change? I've driven a couple, and I thought they were crap. Maybe OK on something sporty if it changed gear fairly quickly, but many of them have delay built in and end up being crap. I'd rather drive an automatic with an intelligent "Sport" mode; the last one I drove was great - it held the gears to the redline, changed down when you braked for corners, AND gave good engine braking too.

But you still can't beat a manual gearbox for truly sporting driving.

[Motu]

I've driven quite a few Triptronics,mainly Mitsis(anything is an improvement on their last auto),but also Beemers and a Jag I think - as you say,very slow,and what's the point.Drove a 2002 Colt today with a CVVT,they are getting better,but still not nice - was in a Bluebird a couple of weeks ago with a stuffed CVVT,they are like 5 grand to repair,lets let someone else do the testing.

[Two Smoker]

Ive driven a few tiptronics, all of them Mitsi's (which evidently Porsche used as a gear box......) ranging from a 2.5V6 and a couple VR-4's

i found them ok for just going around town, but no good when you really wanted to go fast, for instance in the VR-4 i hit the rev limiter and tapped the gear lever (well hit it hard coz i was going fast lol) and it didnt change up :wacko: had to do it again for it too change up.....

[Kickaha]

I think there could be a case for the Tiptronic type autos we are seeing in cars these days - just a paddle to flip for up and down changes,a lockup converter could provide engine braking...you read it here first.

It's been done before of course - The auto used in BMC (Morris,Austin etc) was a full auto but also had the option of individual gear selection.I've always thought one would make a good power plant for a sidecar.


Not a tiptronic but some of the sidecar guys run pneumatic shifters,with two buttons one for up and one for down,combined with a quickshifter its a good system,but you probably can't get away with the clutchless down changes on a bike.

[F5 Dave]

I read a report of a factory rider using the Husky 430(?) auto in a swampy enduro many moons ago. He said it was like cheating.

Of course if anyone invents an efficient constantly variable gearbox able to take some power then you would run the engine at a constant efficient speed (and maybe an idle mode) then the throttle would just engage more gearing as required- fly by wire of course.

Then of course if batteries ever get feasible just go electric & junk the gearbox totally. Max torque from any revs & as much traction control as you want to program in. I’ll have mine in blue.

[merv]

Interesting Yamaha have developed the 2 Trac versions of their dirt bikes that drive the front wheel by hydraulic drive. Now that would be one way to get the fully variable drive at constant engine speed, just have a computer control the oil supply valves while the engine keeps pumping the stuff.

So far they are still using chain drive to the rear but it suggests that it would be easy to drive the back wheel hydraulically too. (Just like a lot of large machinery)

[F5 Dave]

yeah some aussie guy has been beatnig that drum for well over a decade, can't remember his name off the top of my head though. Fluid drive was all the rage on concept bike penned in the mid - late 80s

[Dr Bob]

Interesting Yamaha have developed the 2 Trac versions of their dirt bikes that drive the front wheel by hydraulic drive. Now that would be one way to get the fully variable drive at constant engine speed, just have a computer control the oil supply valves while the engine keeps pumping the stuff.

So far they are still using chain drive to the rear but it suggests that it would be easy to drive the back wheel hydraulically too. (Just like a lot of large machinery)
It wouldn't really be a completely variable drive because the pressure would be determined by the pump from the engine. The ratio between back and front could be controlled that way, but the engine speed would still determine the overall power going to the wheels. Unless there was some way to restrict etc but then we are looking at an inefficiency and there goes the idea of constant velocity for efficiency.

[merv]

yeah some aussie guy has been beatnig that drum for well over a decade, can't remember his name off the top of my head though. Fluid drive was all the rage on concept bike penned in the mid - late 80s

Better and more useful electronics probably make it more of a possibility these days.

[merv]

Unless there was some way to restrict etc but then we are looking at an inefficiency and there goes the idea of constant velocity for efficiency.

Power could still be controlled by throttle opening and stuff like that all electronically, otherwise at constant throttle opening an internal combustion engine is producing a fixed amount of power and if you didn't need that much you have to dump it into battery charge (there's another idea of course the hybrid) or waste it as heat somewhere (and that would kill efficiency). I am sure the technos can sort this out by controlling the oil valves and winding on the throttle as the load increases all by electronics.

[moko]

It'd be interesting to see one of those super scooters converted into a "real" road bike.I think itd be a hit with the commuters


I reckon that there are already "crossover" bikes,Honda Deauville 650 looks like a Scooter to me but is sold as a bike,same as that bastard ugly BMW1200 thing.Gilera do a neat little scoot called the DNA which is kind of a cross between a bike and a scoot,looks neat and a good seller.
Honda sold a 400 auto "Dream" here alongside the more normal version,the only roadtest I ever read of one said it was bloody awful to ride,I suppose it`s what you`re used to.
Scooters are massive sellers in Europe,make a lot more sense than bikes but it`s a very conservative market.

[NordieBoy]

Husky (can't spell huscqvar.....huscavar...huskqav..$%$it!)did an auto MXer back in the 70's/80's....and honda did a 400 twin auto too.....

Husky 390...

http://www.vmx.livewire.gen.nz/magazine/80Husky390/p1.jpg
http://www.vmx.livewire.gen.nz/magazine/80Husky390/p2.jpg

[ManDownUnder]

I quite like being in control of the changes (i.e. no automatics for me) but the idea of clutchless shifting would be worth a go... I guess.

I'd never thought of looking at a bike as having 5 controls covered with four limbs - makes me feel all... co-ordinated now!

Either that or I'll start thinking about what I'm doing, and wont be able to get the thing out of the garage to get home!
MDU

[vifferman]

Interesting Yamaha have developed the 2 Trac versions of their dirt bikes that drive the front wheel by hydraulic drive. Now that would be one way to get the fully variable drive at constant engine speed, just have a computer control the oil supply valves while the engine keeps pumping the stuff.

So far they are still using chain drive to the rear but it suggests that it would be easy to drive the back wheel hydraulically too. (Just like a lot of large machinery)That thing actually worked really well; if the back tyre started to spin up, the front got more drive and started pulling the bike, transferring weight and stopping the wheelspin.
A fully hydraulic drive would have to be lighter and/or more reliable than chain or shaft drive to be worthwhile, because there would no doubt be some power loss due to slippage, heat, blah blah blah...

[Paul in NZ]

I think (rarely) that the Moto Guzzi "Convert" was the only really successful automatic motorcycle ever made. Even then, it was not really an auto, just a 2 range manual box (low = town, High = country, don't shift on the fly if you want the clutch from a 160 stornello to last) with a whacking great torque converter. I know of one up our way (I did offer to buy it) and the one for sale on bikepoint so at least 2 in NZ.

They can reach about 105 mph and can be fired off the line like a missile (well a GUZZI missile) by dropping it into low, holding the brakes on hard and revving the bejezzus out of it until steam and smoke boil out of the tranny, let of the brakes and away you go... Cor!

The cops in the US bought heaps. If you look on the swingarm of a late 70's tonti framed Guzzi you will notice an extra lug for a disk caliper. Joe law would puull you over with his guzzi plod mobile (how he kept the lights, the radio and everything else running with the weedy alternator is a mystery). Throw out the special side stand which would put on the park brake (hence the special caliper)

If you tried to do a runner in your 'Dukes of Hazard' replica, johnny law would leap on the Guzzi (engine still chug chugging away on a lazy southern afternoon and simply dial in the power after you. No messin with gear and the clutch.... Cool eh!

One bike crazy not mentioned was triumphs 'Slick Shift'. A face cam in the gearbox operated the clutch throw out when the gear lever was pressed down. You could (in theory) idle in gear (assuming your Triumph would idle) with your foot on the lever. Let the lever up and ride away. No need to use the clutch during shifting either.

It was NOT popular and is generally disconnected. Cool idea though...

Paul in NZ

[Mongoose]

I think (rarely) that the Moto Guzzi "Convert" was the only really successful automatic motorcycle ever made. Even then, it was not really an auto, just a 2 range manual box (low = town, High = country, don't shift on the fly if you want the clutch from a 160 stornello to last) with a whacking great torque converter. I know of one up our way (I did offer to buy it) and the one for sale on bikepoint so at least 2 in NZ.

Paul in NZ

One lives in Dunedin.

[Motu]

We put the slickshifts back in our pre units - as we got the power up with late model parts and the odd 11.1,wild cam and big carbs stuff they were so wound up with stiff clutch springs we had Pop Eye left arms and clutch cable life was weeks (specialy with our cable skills) the slickshift took the load off the cable - a few puzzeled looks when we did a clutchless start too!

[moko]

Dutch car maker DAF used to make little run-abouts with automatic transmission consisting of belts and pulleys .They were really popular in Holland but didnt catch on elsewhere.To prove it worked they ran a couple of F3 racing cars with it fitted fairly successfully and Williams tested a similar system for their F1 Car.The FIA banned it in 1994,probably because they were shit-scared it might lead to over-taking or something.Daf were later bought out by Volvo and concentrated on commercial vehicles.

[moko]

The cops in the US bought heaps.
Paul in NZ

Yep,heaps of crap with Harley badges on the tank

[Paul in NZ]

Oh course....

Choosing 'some' bikes automatically makes you a trannie.....

Paul N

Tassels anyone?

[Motu]

The DAF transmission is still around,these days called CVT or some such badging on cars - they were horrible in small cars as first used,but the ones out now seemed to go well - hugely expensive to repair.

Jap scooters sometimes have them too - centrifical expanding pulleys,like all stupid ideas it works.

[scumdog]

Yep,heaps of crap with Harley badges on the tank

Funny how no other company had the business smarts to make that sale :msn-wink:

[Paul in NZ]

Funny how no other company had the business smarts to make that sale :msn-wink:

Yeah! Must be as hard as heck to sell HD's to increasingly paranoid american police forces.....

Imagine chasing even an old munter like my Guzzi on a bloater glide with extra crap tacked on.. Yikes!

Paul N

No need to chase me, just follow the trail of parts...

[scumdog]

Yeah! Must be as hard as heck to sell HD's to increasingly paranoid american police forces.....

Imagine chasing even an old munter like my Guzzi on a bloater glide with extra crap tacked on.. Yikes!

Paul N

No need to chase me, just follow the trail of parts...

What do you mean by "increasingly paranoid" and how does that influence what bike they buy? as a non-sequetuer that comment rules supreme.

Yank cops have being using H-D since year dot, some have flirted with other brands for a bit and others still use Kwakas etc, "different strokes for different folks"

As I've mentioned before, the trade-in value is a major influence in the bikes they use, more so than alleged patriotism and/or reliability/performance.

Have a nice day y'all :cool:

[pete376403]

The DAF transmission is still around,these days called CVT or some such badging on cars - they were horrible in small cars as first used,but the ones out now seemed to go well - hugely expensive to repair.

Jap scooters sometimes have them too - centrifical expanding pulleys,like all stupid ideas it works.

CVT - Continuously Variable Transmission. Incidentally, The Zenith Gradua had a variable transmission way back in the 10's or 20's or thereabouts. The expanding mechanism was controlled by a hand lever, but the principle was the same. IIRC it was so successful in the TT (compared to the fixed gearing that most other bikes had) it was banned. Thereafter the Zenith logo was an image of a five barred gate (ie barred from cometition). Or I might be thinking of the Rudge Multi.

[pete376403]

Funny how no other company had the business smarts to make that sale :msn-wink:
Not so much business smarts as a protected market and the police specification tailored expressly to suit one brand of bike. Ducati tried to break into this market with the Apollo V4 but the bike made too much power for the tyres, which the police specification stated had to be of one particular size only.

[Morepower]

Automatics :sick:

Have not found a modern one in a car I like . Much rather drive a manual and they certainly have no place on a bike in my opinion unless its a electronicaly shifted full manual box that shifts when you push the button not 2 seconds later when you are in all sorts of trouble.

My 2c

[Morepower]

.Rover had a ''freewheel'',a fancy version of Maori Overdrive - wind a big knob and it would coast when you throttled off,so you could make clutchless shifts....down hills in a very overweight Rover 90 with drum brakes in ''free wheel'' :bye:

Been there :eek5: not much fun on a steep gravel road

Dave

[scumdog]

Not so much business smarts as a protected market and the police specification tailored expressly to suit one brand of bike. Ducati tried to break into this market with the Apollo V4 but the bike made too much power for the tyres, which the police specification stated had to be of one particular size only.

How DID Kwaka, Honda get in on the act then? My comments come from touring the U.S. and speaking to m'bike cops, none mentioned protectionism or such but maybe being mere minions they were not privy to the "big picture'.
Some places they were still on big Jap 4's, other places on H-D, neither group voiced any particular brand loyalty and the nearest thing to a negative comment was the trade-in value of H-D vs the rest. :cool:

[vifferman]

How DID Kwaka, Honda get in on the act then? My comments come from touring the U.S. and speaking to m'bike cops, none mentioned protectionism or such but maybe being mere minions they were not privy to the "big picture'.
Some places they were still on big Jap 4's, other places on H-D, neither group voiced any particular brand loyalty and the nearest thing to a negative comment was the trade-in value of H-D vs the rest. :cool:There are several issues here, one being that the HD's are much lower, so easier to get on/off, especially for shorter cops. Also they are used for parades and other slow-moving stuff, and the HDs were better for this. I'd imagine too that HD give the cops a good price on bikes. They have YEARS of experience with manufacturing police bikes to the police specs, and have a division set up specifically for this. That gives them a huge advantage when it comes to supplying bikes.

[FROSTY]

My memory might be getting a lil foggy here but.
As i recall the yank cops diddn't like the jap police bikes because the forks were too weak. Puzzled the hell out of the japs I tell ya
Untill they saw a cop using a HD to literally shove a broken down car off the freeway.Thats wot the chrome bars over the front fender are