My maori thread

[Finn]

Many of you would have read my post about the death of another set of twins. Like the media and probably the police, I too jumped to the conclusion that it was yet another senseless death caused by a maori family of an innocent child.

In traditional Finn style, I went for the jugular, a tad over the top. I perhaps didn’t orchestrate my thoughts very well although I do wonder if the responses would have been different if it was indeed a double murder. Possibly so.

The problem I see is as follows;

It's dangerous to criticize maoridom yet there are clearly huge problems here. If you want to blame someone then the Government and Tribal leaders are a good start. They have created a separatist society and have done maori a huge injustice.

If you dare to say anything critical of Maori, charges of racism will surely follow. And therein lies part of the problem, most New Zealanders bend over backwards not to be racist or to be seen as racist.

So for years the most egregious things have been going on in New Zealand and we pretend not to see, because if we notice and say something or try to do something about it we are intolerant racists and cultural imperialists. And if we cannot avoid noticing the blame is put not on the perpetrators but on what is ancient history now, the settlement of New Zealand over 150 years ago and the 'displacement' of Maori in that process.

The Kahui twins murder and their families refusal to co-operate with the police may represent a tipping point. Maybe New Zealanders of all stripes and hues will take a fresh look at what it means to be a New Zealander. But I doubt it.

A classic example is this - Iwi need more funds to fight abuse - Turia
Maori Party co-leader Tariana Turia has lashed out at claims child abuse is part of Maori culture – but says whanau must "step up to the plate" to address the situation.

She has also called on the Government to better fund iwi non-violence programmes, which she said had more success reducing abuse than mainstream agencies such as Child Youth and Family Services.

Am I the only one who thinks this stinks, using the death of the twins to demand more money from the taxpayer? You could throw a billion dollars at the iwi and not a thing would change. This is proven and we’ve been doing it for years and the only thing that has happened is we get more and more of demands like Tariana's.

It doesn't work!!!

A recent news article - Call for utu over twins
Even hardened criminals have been sickened by the injuries Chris and Cru Kahui suffered – they are threatening retribution against family members covering up the deaths.

It emerged a few weeks back that Auckland gang members have warned the family to name the killer – or killers – or face retribution for bringing shame on maori.

Auckland gang members threatening their own retribution on the killer for "bringing shame on maori". They need to take look in a mirror. They are hardly enhancing the mana of maori themselves.

Finally the third news story that grabbed my attention was this "Texas development 'cultural theft'"

A planned $30 million Maori-themed development in northern Texas called Kiora Park is cultural theft, maori say.

The proposed 250-apartment development in Plano, near Dallas, is being promoted as having a New Zealand architectural theme "by incorporating elements from homes in that region".

"We will use visual and other elements from the history and culture and maori folk art from New Zealand to produce a strong and memorable theme," the company's website says.

The website, which has a repeated fern leaf motif, does not give details on how the maori theme will be realised.

maori activist Ken Mair said the themed development was a form of cultural theft. He questioned whether it could also be intellectual property theft.
"If it's clearly identified as maori and that's the foundation of where they're coming from they should have a substantial discussion with appropriate maori people, hapu, iwi, whoever, to seek our permission," he said.

Mair said it was extremely ill-mannered to proceed without maori permission and guidance.

Does "ill-mannered to proceed without Maori permission and guidance" translate to "hire me as a consultant"? Pay Backhanders?

From the same story there is a sign of common sense and a glimmer of hope from Alan Duff. Author and Books In Homes founder Alan Duff said Maori had bigger problems than concerns about cultural branding.

The US housing development was not offensive, he said.

"What's offensive to maori is those (Kahui) twins getting killed and the family not talking to police. That reflects badly on maori and that's what we should worry about.

"Greece is not up in arms because Las Vegas did Ancient Greece themes in their casinos. Why are we so precious about things that don't count?"
Perhaps Maori should look to Alan Duff for leadership rather than Tariana Turias or Ken Mairs.

Stop holding hands out for money and get on with fixing up the problems in their communities.

I don’t have all the answers, but I won’t sit on my hands and be quiet about it either. I'm sick of having this bullshit thrown in my face in just about everything I do in life. I really feel that NZ has lost it’s identity and values. I would like to see the maori people succeed in NZ as a whole as they play an important role in our identity. This will require HUGE changes in thinking and action. I’m just not sure “we” have the balls or dare I say it, really give a shit about our country anymore. I'm sure that maori's that are contributing members of our society are not very happy with the status quo.

[SpankMe]

You don't actually expect me to read all that. :shit: I get bored after only a couple of sentences. Very short attention span unless there's naked girlies involved.

Let's try and keep this civil.

[The_Dover]

Are you running for fuckin parliament or something mate? Trying to get a few votes?

Or was it just a quiet morning in the office?

[sAsLEX]

Does "ill-mannered to proceed without Maori permission and guidance" translate to "hire me as a consultant"? Pay Backhanders?


Yes.


Its also in the RMA where Maori are to be treated not as equals but as a higher authority than the interested parties in any debate. One "consultation" which is viewed as the benchmark has taken 9, yes thats 9 long years of consultation and they are yet to reach an agrreement. God knows how much all this consulting costs but what stinks is often the people affected are left out of the consultation process as the Maori have to be consulted by law no matter what, who cares what any one else thinks be it they white, brown, yellow or whatever.

They need to get over the fact that other races settled here and start living as part of society rather than acting against it.

Hell they weren't even the first ones here, yet alone the fact they hardly occupied any of the country but somehow it ALL belongs to them.

[Lou Girardin]

A planned $30 million Maori-themed development in northern Texas called Kiora Park is cultural theft, maori say.

The proposed 250-apartment development in Plano, near Dallas, is being promoted as having a New Zealand architectural theme "by incorporating elements from homes in that region".


From the same story there is a sign of common sense and a glimmer of hope from Alan Duff. Author and Books In Homes founder Alan Duff said Maori had bigger problems than concerns about cultural branding.

The US housing development was not offensive, he said.

"What's offensive to maori is those (Kahui) twins getting killed and the family not talking to police. That reflects badly on maori and that's what we should worry about.




Likewise, is Italy demanding a kickback for all the Tuscan? style homes that have been built? It could be an opportunity for a back-hander to me as a cultural advisor. After all, I'm more Italian than nearly all Maoris are Maori.

Alan Duff is the one voice of sanity in the entire Maori grievance industry. Which is why they try to marginalise him, calling him a white Maori. It seems mirrors are conspicuously lacking in their society.

You hit the nail on the head yet again Finn, are you going to run for President of the Republic of Outerroa?

[Winston001]

Good post Finn and also good that you recognised the earlier twins thread was a mistake - by most of us.

Maori participation in RMA decisions is just a cross we have to bear because of the new recognition of the lawfulness of the Treaty. Of course the Treaty itself is a very short, even vague document which is being reinterpreted as each day passes.

Like it or not, the consequence of the Treaty is that we live in a duel culture - two peoples. We can't ignore Maori and neither we should. Maori culture is unique to NZ and we actually embrace it eg. the Haka. It is the one thing which sets us apart from Aussies, Brits, Americans etc.

But at the moment any statement critical of Maori is verbotten - unless you are Maori. And even then people like Alan Duff are ignored or dismissed as Uncle Toms ie. black outside, white inside.

The only way to change is to speak up - but in a calm manner. Abuse, shouting, and insults just sidetrack any useful discussion.

[James Deuce]

Irrespective of the perceived right or wrong of the situation, Maori are a separate legal entity in NZ.

The "colonial" (too much baggage in that word) Government never ever allowed Maori to establish a "Sovereign" (too much baggage again) Maori nation, or even a loose "nationwide" tribal affiliation, and rather than the partnership promised by the Treaty of Waitangi, average Kiwi have actively encouraged separatism, not inclusiveness, since the 1840s. To the point of allowing the NZ Company to encourage the British Crown to wage war on tribes that didn't take Tainui's path.

The solution is for every NZer to actively participate in including Maori as part of NZ. Not defining them by skin colour, lack of tecnological facitlity, perceived cultural shortcomings, and the actions of a few gang members and "brown trash" familes. Stamping your foot because "they" don't see the world the way you do and that they are a little pissed off that it took 150 years for the local"colonial" (horrible word) Government to say, "ahh oops, yes, we didn't really stand by our word, did we?", isn't going to do anything except fuel the grievance industry some more.

As for the comments about the RMA decision making process being dictated to by Maori, I very rarely see Kiwis stand up and make constructive critical approaches to changing a process. They'll take 3 electoral terms to come to grips with the fact that they don't like the way things are going, change the Government by a landslide, and then go, "oops we didn't think you give us what we asked for."

Then vote that Government out in a term. Inarticulate expressions of voter rage aren't particularly constructive.

I don't understand what drives your fear of Maoridom Finn. Are you expressing a desire to address issues that you believe are preventing NZ from becoming a nation of one people, joined by differences, rather than separated by historical events? Or do you just want a country that subscribes to the theory that the only "decent" culture is one that subscribes to "traditional" Western values of self-aggrandisment and wealth at all costs? Of perpetual wealth based class struggle?

I don't like the path that NZ has taken in the last 20 years. Removing imagination from the classroom, dictating an education process that feeds a particular system of ideology. Ultimately it leads to ignorant reactionary pogroms of the different and radical "elements" in society. A system that has at it's core the "fact" that Maori are to blame for everything that is wrong with NZ,a nd the acquisition of more stuff is all that you need for a happy life.

[Swoop]

we live in a duel culture

An interesting freudian slip.

[Paul in NZ]

Well when you put it like that...

You are partly correct. I totally agree with the majority of your post and applaud you for posting something thoughtfull and constructive.

You may be correct about tipping points and I definately agree that this is an issue for all of NZ to look at if we (the tax payer) are being asked to fund action. I'm not 100% sure this is a distinctly maori problem, I think it's a problem faced by the 'underclasses' in many modern economies.

In south american the modernisation of the economy has widened the gulf between rich and poor and caused havock with violence towards women and children escallating out of control, all in the name of the global economy.

People need jobs and self respect and we are looking at a generation that has neither. These are the children of the children of the welfare state and they know nothing of responsibility, respect or pride in work and I have no idea how to change that.

Anyway - Finn - I'm impressed!! Well done.

[The_Dover]

Can you cut to the chase jim2?

[sAsLEX]

The "colonial" (too much baggage in that word) Government never ever allowed Maori to establish a "Sovereign" (too much baggage again) Maori nation, or even a loose "nationwide" tribal affiliation, and rather than the partnership promised by the Treaty of Waitangi, average Kiwi have actively encouraged separatism, not inclusiveness, since the 1840s. To the point of allowing the NZ Company to encourage the British Crown to wage war on tribes that didn't take Tainui's path.


That maybe true. But it was a few hundred years ago. They are now a full part of this nation and have the same rights as every other NZ citizen, but because of past errors they are now above normal citizens. Hell they have their own special MP's. Do you see any other race that is an integral part of NZ and our culture having its own MPs? Scots, Irish, English MP's even chinese MP's cause hell chinese have been here for hundreds of years as well and where is their voice.

Why should the nation be held at ransom for something that happened so long ago? All treaty settlements should be cleared, settled not just written off, and then NZ should think of writing a new Treaty, scrapping the old one, and becoming a nature of "one people" not us and them as it is now.

[Finn]

I don't understand what drives your fear of Maoridom Finn. Are you expressing a desire to address issues that you believe are preventing NZ from becoming a nation of one people, joined by differences, rather than separated by historical events? Or do you just want a country that subscribes to the theory that the only "decent" culture is one that subscribes to "traditional" Western values of self-aggrandisment and wealth at all costs? Of perpetual wealth based class struggle?


I think I've explained the issues I have with maoridom in my post quite clearly. Culture is fine and good. We should value it, just not with money.

[Storm]

Well thought out and put Mr Finn. Would it be amiss of me to say that Labour seems to be a supporter of the grievance industry also?

[Ixion]

Would someone care to define "maori" ? Technically, I'm a Maori (and , no, I'm not enrolling on the poxy Maori roll so there can be more Maori seats, so stop asking me). As much Maori as most of 'em anyway. Except a hundred or more years ago the great greats decided that living in a raupo shack on kumaras and mooching for handouts was a pretty shit life and figured they could beat the white man at his own game.

And I know heaps of people that are the same. They're as maori as any of the "professional maoris" , except they don't make an issue out of it. They just get on with life and contributing to society.

And no-one ever thinks of them as being maori. Until someone points it out. For years our next door neighbour was a Maori princess. You'd never know it from anything she said though, and she had no time for the "professional maoris'

Being maori shouldn't be an excuse. It shouldn't be a justification. It shouldn't be the only thing you've achieved in life.

The fact that I'm Maori makes no more difference to anything than the fact that Lou's Italian. Shouldn't make any more difference to the "professional maoris". They need to recognise that this is the 21st century, the worlds moved on, get over it.

And I wasn't offended by Finns twins thread. Or anything else. If you're offended , ask this . Is it true? Yes? Then instead of being offended get to work to fix the problem. No, not true? Then put up the facts to correct the error. No-one here (nor hardly anywhere else) is slagging of Maoris for the hell of it. If people are critical it's because they see things to be critical of.

And the arrival of the white man may have buggered up the Maori way of life. But, as the great greats found, that was more than compensated for by the opportunities that it brought. For those with enough gumption to grab 'em.

[Colapop]

That (the first one) has to be one of the best posts I've viewed this year!! I have very definite views on the issues that surround "Maoridom". I got given the same chances growing up as anybody from any culture (generally) in NZ. I have never had a handout from the government or from my family. I never expect one either. Everything I've got/achieved I worked for - I got off my arse and worked for it. I lived in Wairoa which is very heavily populated by Maori people - many of whom are great people. The only problems I had were Maori giving me shit. Racism is not solely "White" people against brown - more often than not it's completely the opposite.

[cowpoos]

I want a chocolate bar..............


















































please :)

[James Deuce]

I think I've explained the issues I have with maoridom in my post quite clearly. Culture is fine and good. We should value it, just not with money.

I think this thread is excellent because it expresses what you were trying to convey a great deal better, but I still don't understand why all Maori have to be held accountable under a very tightly defined set of criteria?

Ngai Tahu are probbaly the best run corporate in NZ, with strategic goals that extend beyond making money. They don't make the news unless a Sealord worker dies in a fishing boat accident, or they have fines applied retroactively because quota changed retrospectively.

Ixion, you're right, BUT, Maori have only recently had access as a Culture to the same opportunites we have.

Saslex, it wasn't hundreds of years ago. It is within the scope of vision of only 4 generations to see how modern NZ developed. Maori shouldn't have Maori MPs. Why should a tribal society with their own sovereignty have to participate in a foreign Government?

We've forced them to drop their culture, sat back and sniggered as they descended into the chaos that all tribal societies faced during the scope of European Colonisation did and then, worst of all, given the underachievers fish instead of teaching them how to fish. Now we have the temerity to claim that they are nothing more than dole bludging losers, entrenched in that life style.

When we're challenged with the question, "what are you going to do about it?", we go, "It's your problem and you're all violent wife beating child abusers."

I remain impressed that Finn took the time to explain himself, but ever since a chance dinner with James Belich and Tipene O'Regan, I've tried to challenge my perceptions and understanding of the recent history of NZ. Michael King's book and James Belich's TV Documentaries and books should be standard reading for everyone that lives in NZ.

[Lou Girardin]

Why should a tribal society with their own sovereignty have to participate in a foreign Government?



They do not have sovereignty. They ceded that to England.
Despite what they now wish they had done, or what they want us to believe, or even what ever more fanciful interpretations of the treaty may say, that is a fact.

[sAsLEX]

Saslex, it wasn't hundreds of years ago. It is within the scope of vision of only 4 generations to see how modern NZ developed. Maori shouldn't have Maori MPs. Why should a tribal society with their own sovereignty have to participate in a foreign Government?

Umm so your saying we should live as seperate peoples in the one country? With us non maori people having our government and our infrastucture, and them having their own form of self government?! How would the roading/prisons/ different laws etc work?

Can you give an example of another country that does something similar to what you are suggesting?

So if it wan't hundreds of years ago...... well it was.




We've forced them to drop their culture

ummm sure you walked about recently Te Reo is on more and more things these days. Our European names are being changed back to their traditional ones, ie Mt Taranaki not Egmount anymore.
Have you watched tv recently? Any channel, most seem to have Maori language programming, and you see alot of large kapa haka competitions on there as well showing that many are keeping their culture alive and well.

[Ixion]

Ixion, you're right, BUT, Maori have only recently had access as a Culture to the same opportunites we have.


Well, recently only in the sense that NZ is a recent country. Tis maybe 150 years since great(n)-Grandfather sussed out the newcomers had some good toys. Bought (built maybe, not sure) a boat, set up ferrying people about, expanded to running a service between Russell and Auckland, did some trading on the side,bought a house, sent his kids to school (might have been grandkids).

EDIT: He was a tough old bastard by accounts. His daughter married my other great(n-1)-grandfather, who once was foolish enough to give her a clip upside the head. Great(n)-grandfather "had a word". Sorted. Now bear in mind that great(n-1)-grandfather was a old school seaman, shipping on whaling boats of the 19th C , and pretty handy with his fists as most of his kindred were.

Didn't take most Maori long to cotton on to how to work the new system.

What we call "Maori" now are only a tiny tiny fraction of the whole Maori-blood population. The fraction that couldn't or wouldn't, adapt.

Tempted here to invoke Darwin. Adapt, or perish.

[Maha]

And on a seperate note ....... unemployment figures have risen by 10,000 in the Waikato in the last two days?.... what the fuck's going on there?....:gob:

[candor]

Being Maori in a modern urban "pakeha" world is what killed my partner. Was not mentally equipped for it. Things too alien.

These kids getting killed - imo its happening because the people involved are very degraded and dehumanised without any "culture" apart from ight is right ie feral, plus often addled on alcohol and drugs, if not before birth by fetal alcohol syndrom then definitely after. Keep druinking and drugging hard a few years amnd you will see IQ points lost then you can't figure your oen shit out regardless if CYPs put you on some behaviour or parenting course.

I have sat with some "lower socio-economic" ie 3rd generation dependent type families and heard the encouragement being given to have more babies as the youngest is now near the age of independence.... so where will the booze money come from then?

Westernised Maori seem fine, descendents of those who clung to old ways but got marginalised for it (and lost the old ways anyway apart from tokenism rituals etc) sem to be the ones without a sense of identity or spiritual worth. Who are at the crux of the repeating cycles.

They are drawing on the worst of both cultures, mixed them up to create a mutant or shall we say "dysfunctional" cross breed, and left the rest (the balancing cultural aspects) fully out of the equation. A very stinky brew.

[mstriumph]

Umm so your saying we should live as seperate peoples in the one country? With us non maori people having our government and our infrastucture, and them having their own form of self government?! How would the roading/prisons/ different laws etc work?

Can you give an example of another country that does something similar to what you are suggesting?

......................


Yes

Australia seems to be heading in that direction - under the banner of multiculturism

than and the apologists view that persons with aborigine blood are over-represented in the prison population because society demands too much of them [instead of the more realistic view that society demands of aborigines only the same as it demands of everyone else here but that they transgress [or get caught] more often]

there seems to be a growing acceptence by everyone except the general electorate that aborigines should be permitted their own courts, punishments and administrative/governance systems ....... funded from the public purse

there is already a growth industry in seperate, publically-funded, aborigine legal services and other things to which non-aborigines do not have access [although aborigines can access either their own or the more general services open to all australian residents]

what do i feel?
i feel it is divisive, unfair and will end in tears

[Paul in NZ]

That maybe true. But it was a few hundred years ago. They are now a full part of this nation and have the same rights as every other NZ citizen, but because of past errors they are now above normal citizens. Hell they have their own special MP's. Do you see any other race that is an integral part of NZ and our culture having its own MPs? Scots, Irish, English MP's even chinese MP's cause hell chinese have been here for hundreds of years as well and where is their voice.

Why should the nation be held at ransom for something that happened so long ago? All treaty settlements should be cleared, settled not just written off, and then NZ should think of writing a new Treaty, scrapping the old one, and becoming a nature of "one people" not us and them as it is now.

Yes - but I'm sorry, fair trade applies. Maori were given certain rights in return for accepting the crown. You can't bleat about it being unfair now when the fact is, Maori have been seriously disadvantaged for many years. Yes, their is a greivience industry but their are legitimate greivences and not all of them go back hundreds of years, some are within our lifetimes.

Maori have a lot to offer this country and I want to see the resurgence of maori culture and commercial success. I don't want to see an underclass of beneficiaries and neither do most maori.

The key to this is working together to solve the problem but you can't blame maori for being a little suspicious about deals with the crown eh?

[Lou Girardin]

The key to this is working together to solve the problem but you can't blame maori for being a little suspicious about deals with the crown eh?

After receiving several hundred million in settlements, you'd think they'd trust us by now.
That's several hundred million that doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference to any of their negative social and health indicators.
But after seeing the Muriwhenua settlement debacle, where the northern tribes fought tooth and nail to prevent urban Maori get their hands on any of the loot, it's obvious that tribal beliefs run deep.
Call it corruption or call it culture, the fact is that only a few benefit.
This is what Alan Duff is vehemently opposed to.

[sAsLEX]

I want to see the resurgence of maori culture


ummm to what? Completely overtake any other culture? They have their own tv station, they have many culture villages making a buck off the tourist, they have tame iti prancing about in a skirt with a gun, they have the 2nd official language, most kids have to learn some of the language at school , every Govt dept has to edure Marae visit after Marae visit, every thing that happens in this country has a maori welcome/blessing, they have the haka representing their culture to the rugby word, they have huge kapa haka competitions where schools and groups from the whole country compete


yip I can really see the lack of their culture from what I see.

[Paul in NZ]

ummm to what? Completely overtake any other culture? They have their own tv station, they have many culture villages making a buck off the tourist, they have tame iti prancing about in a skirt with a gun, they have the 2nd official language, most kids have to learn some of the language at school , every Govt dept has to edure Marae visit after Marae visit, every thing that happens in this country has a maori welcome/blessing, they have the haka representing their culture to the rugby word, they have huge kapa haka competitions where schools and groups from the whole country compete


yip I can really see the lack of their culture from what I see.

These things are a balancing act. Yes, there is too much of some but not enough of the other. I genuinely believe that a lot of maori youth's problems are based on a disconnection from their culture. I would like NZ to adopt more maori place names and some of the language creep into everyday use.

Why not? It makes the place unique and brings us together surely..

Paul n

[MWVT]

They do not have sovereignty. They ceded that to England.
Despite what they now wish they had done, or what they want us to believe, or even what ever more fanciful interpretations of the treaty may say, that is a fact.

Firstly - This thread = much better:yes:

As to your comments Lou, Defining sovereignty is a very difficult exercise (even remaining only in English)

Secondly the waters get muddied more and more when you account for translation "inconsistencies".

Thirdly it gets even more convoluted when you begin to examine who in fact signed the treaty, and whether they even had the authority to sign what they were signing. (that applies to both sides of the agreement incidentally)

Now i know what some of you are thinking (me included.... sometimes). What a poxy stuffed up mistranslated semi-legitimate piece of mumbo jumbo, throw it in the rubbish, start fresh.

Reality Check - politically, highly difficult if not impossible. Should the annulment of an agreement require the consent of both parties??

The big question is.... should (emphasis on should) the descendants of long dead folks honour the treaty the said long dead folks signed?? If someone could have a crack at answering that, i would much appreciate it. Also defining sovereignty, go on try it, it's hard.:shit:

[sAsLEX]

These things are a balancing act. Yes, there is too much of some but not enough of the other. I genuinely believe that a lot of maori youth's problems are based on a disconnection from their culture. I would like NZ to adopt more maori place names and some of the language creep into everyday use.

Why not? It makes the place unique and brings us together surely..

Paul n

But the other cultures and how they arrived here also make us unique. The mix of European, Pacific, Asian and other cultures makes New Zealand what it is, not just the fact we have Maoris.

I think it is shit that people think being culturally sensitive means ripping down names that have stood for hundreds of years named by our countries forefathers who helped shape this nation, and just replacing them with some Maori name.

As a Nation we have moved on from being this "Colonial" thing Jim keeps going on about. Our nation is a melting pot, an out of the way chain of islands that have been populated by many cultures/races/peoples over the last thousand years. Does the fact that the Maoris claim to be here first mean they have right for the rest of time to hold a "Sword of Damocles" over our heads lest we upset one of their ancient beliefs, which they handily never recorded.....

I say get the fuck over it. You did not rise to meet the challange and you were not victorious, be thankful you all weren't slaughtered like other conqured peoples, be thankful that your culture is still a part of our nation,be thankful to continue co-existing in this land of the long white cloud.

[ManDownUnder]

Finn - that's a post worth reading. Class all the way.

I agree - there are problems in Maoridom, and the answers to them are not cash, although some money may be needed for the resources to achieve the right ends.

Get rid of the hopelessness, lack of direction and loss of mana endured by all for far too long. The sad irony is that I think Maori have such a rich, and proud culture - something all Maori could be grounded in if they chose. Maybe it's a case of Maori not knowing who they are - they have the choice to be traditional Maori, contemporary (i.e. living in the "now" New Zealand), or 1/2 American a la the music and secular culture pouring out of the TV and radio every time you turn the damned things on.

I love the particular irony of the Texans recognising the iconic nature of the culture and adopting it for a theme park - although I remain realistic about their motives... ($$$ KA-CHING $$$).

Too much to say so I'll astop now, and join in as stuff comes up... but cool post Finn.. Blingo mate... Greenies being flicked your way

[Brian d marge]

Well I can only speak as an outsider who has lived in NZ for sometime , both pre 1980 and post.

First When I went back for a holiday , I was walkng along in chch I think and two young maori girls teenage girls were walking along ( no Shoes, which I find strange !!) but they were singing a maori song and doing the hand actions that went with it, because they wanted to .. That was very nice to see
We also went to the Hotsprings in Rotarua, and the Maori run hotsprings , were staffed by a much nicer person, we really enjoyed the experience.

Contrast that to the lady in the infomation room in Taupo ....

So what I am getting at is that if a person is comfortable and feels secure in who they are, They tend to be a more agreeable peson.

So to feel secure I personally would need to feel Satisfied with what I do . respected by family/peers/and to a lesser extent society and be able to enjoy the little indulgences that I like to do, such as drink like a fish and play around with Motorcycles. Finally and probably most important , have a knowledge of my background , which would aid in my feeling of security. Knowing where and How I arrived here.


NZ went through Huge changes in the 80s ,,( I left in 82 ish and came back in 93 ish and went Whooo what the hell happened here, and through a lot of reseach - there is a wonderful short film which explains everything -)

Long and short those changes ( as Paul in BZ has said ) left a lot of people out in the cold.

Now me, I just buggered off again. Because I can. Dont see why I should put up with $%&% when I dont have to , Plenty of other countries and I can always visit. ( but thats just me ). a global gypsy.( no knickers in a twist there was a reason why I put it like that )

What would happen if you whole past and future is tied up in the country, all your friends, family relations, everything you hold dear is here and around you . ( I dont know that feeling ~) and you couldnt just leave.........

Then due to some strange economic act , that you dont understand nor new anything about. You job goes pear shaped . All you want to do is do a good days work come home have a beer and enjoy life.

So you do the best you can .. ( must have been VERY hard for the older folks who were restructured in the 80s , real tough )

Now after 20 years, the friuts of that economic cock up are now teenagers ...and are, ( going to use the word Feral , because it does discribe the person/people I am thinking about) because they just dont know .. the social surroundings are the norm ( if you want to see it in a nut shell have a look at the big housing estates in England ....trust me on that one)

Not only that they ( the powers that be ) continue this ecomomic blundering , by introducing the "student loan" so that Teriary education would be more availabe to the socially disadvantaged , ( and when I talked to Ministers, back then they all spouted on about only paying a 1/4 of the costs .. - tui ad placed here- )

So how to fix it
Save money in the bank, 2. Educate yourself. 3. be respectfull to others and dont tolerate disrespect towards others , even if its a joke and finally Vote , get involved , do something anything just do it in an educated manner ( why do the powers that be pander to the grey vote , because they have a large voting block , are becoming articulate and vocal ,politically .

I mean I really like nz I really do, but IMHO to be comfortable , I feel one needs an escape plan. either money not dependent on NZ, or assets which are independent of NZ.

The Day NZ removes itself from the influence of the world bank and starts to assert is own authority ,( NZ made is the answer , no I dont mean the crap that we had to put up with when NZ was a closed shop , Take ideas from the global stage and do it better , its what kiwis are good at ,,,) the better off its people will be , both Maori/and any other culture that makes this world an interesting place to live in ,,,

Imagine being white , from Surrey, prodestant , with a constiution so anal it makes you but cheeks hurt ...ooops thats me ... Thank the good lord there is other ways of living life !!!: I am all for it !

Stephen

Dont get me started on the trickle down theory , or Market driven salaries ...Greed is greed ,period ,,no matter how you term it !

PPs.. 5. oh and shoot anyone who is/are responsible for Land transport

[Beemer]

A classic example is this - Iwi need more funds to fight abuse - Turia

You got the wrong end of the stick, Finn! She wants more funds FOR fighting/abuse - she must have been misquoted! :innocent:

[ManDownUnder]

You got the wrong end of the stick, Finn! She wants more funds FOR fighting/abuse - she must have been misquoted! :innocent:

I suspect you're both saying the same thing...

[Skyryder]

Would someone care to define "maori" ?

Indigenous people from/with Polynesian geneology.


Skyryder

[Colapop]

Can somebody tell me (a question I've never had a clear answer to) why Maori are defined as being 'native' when they are immigrants to this land, as everyone else after them, by their own recollection/history?

[sAsLEX]

Can somebody tell me (a question I've never had a clear answer to) why Maori are defined as being 'native' when they are immigrants to this land, as everyone else after them, by their own recollection/history?

As they claim to be the first ones to settle here.


Just forget the other peoples that have been before them, I have heard of Viking nations setting up on our shores, and there is supposedly traces of their language in te reo but ........ you wont hear that in NZ history class would you?

[Colapop]

I've said it before "Northland is Viking country"

[Skyryder]

Are you running for fuckin parliament or something mate? Trying to get a few votes?

He got 'creamed' and now he's looking for warm fuzzys.

Skyryder

[Motu]

Can somebody tell me (a question I've never had a clear answer to) why Maori are defined as being 'native' when they are immigrants to this land, as everyone else after them, by their own recollection/history?

Probably the same reason why the Indians of north and south America are called natives....Aboriginies....Normans in England.The Maori came and conquered....we don't know who they conquered,but they were the people in control of the land when the white man came.Can't see any problem with them being the indigenous native race...is anyone else going to step up to the plate?
The Maori got a pretty good deal,and still are getting a pretty good deal - better than any other indigenous race on the planet.We should be proud of that - I'm glad we don't have 3 A4 pages of peoples we have committed genocide upon.Sure,there are no full blooded Maori left in NZ - we have committed genocide too....and our weapon was love....

[Colapop]

We're all immigrants here. We all make the place what it is.

[Maha]

I've said it before "Northland is Viking country"

And it was first known as 'Thorland' before somebody thought more fitting to call it Northland.....sounds the same but suited the area better cos' of its geographical location.....i think?...:corn:

[oldrider]

A Maori man was found nailed to a tree, he also had been stabbed seven times, both legs were broken and his jaw was broken too.
Police said it was the worst case of suicide they had ever witnessed! :shit:

I know I know there is a special forum for this but I just felt it would fit right in here for today. Cheers John.

[Motu]

We're all immigrants here. We all make the place what it is.

The difference being someone else had control before the invading immigrants turned up.If we all turned up at the same time your point is realvent...but seeing as there was a householder in residence you can't claim squatting rights.Either we conquered,or we didn't - and we didn't,we signed a Treaty.It is still being honoured.All I know of American history is cowboy movies....but I get the impression every treaty was broken,peoples were wiped from the record of existance.

[andrea]

And I wasn't offended by Finns twins thread. Or anything else. If you're offended , ask this . Is it true? Yes? Then instead of being offended get to work to fix the problem. No, not true? Then put up the facts to correct the error. No-one here (nor hardly anywhere else) is slagging of Maoris for the hell of it. If people are critical it's because they see things to be critical of.

And the arrival of the white man may have buggered up the Maori way of life. But, as the great greats found, that was more than compensated for by the opportunities that it brought. For those with enough gumption to grab 'em.[/QUOTE]
yeah but it was the way Finn typed the thread that was offputting, and calling them animals. really negative, i agree with Col this is a better thread and i can see where you are coming from Finn. hmmm i definitely dont see myself paying more tax just to help fund something thats probably going to be a complete waste of time, my friend says that the law should be more tougher, hmm capital punishment. its too easy over here, criminals get caught they get thrown into prison, do their time and then in no time they are out again, and whose to say that they have changed.

[mstriumph]

And I wasn't offended by Finns twins thread. Or anything else. ...................... No-one here (nor hardly anywhere else) is slagging of Maoris for the hell of it. If people are critical it's because they see things to be critical of.

that's a viewpoint - but outright derogitory name-calling can't really be classed as 'valid criticism', can it;

the brickbats Finn got were, to my mind, more for his bigotted language than for his viewpoint ............ as you yourself said


........................
yeah but it was the way Finn typed the thread that was offputting, and calling them animals. really negative, ............

[Dafe]

Apparantly, Auckland is expecting a mass reduction in crime over the next few days.:Pokey:

[Scouse]

Finn what about posting this on www.sportsbike.co.nz

[Quasievil]

Good Post Finn, you speak sence in your comments, well written and explained as well as researched.
I agree with your comments and agree with the thread.
Will have to find a few hours to get to grips with it all but good one.

I am really happy with our Pms today :yes: nice one !! not anyones business really,but cant having people thinking we arent mates eh?

Bling a coming

[mstriumph]

....... if i were of biblical persuasion, the parable of the prodigal son would spring to mind ....................:zzzz:

[Brian d marge]

A Maori man was found nailed to a tree, he also had been stabbed seven times, both legs were broken and his jaw was broken too.
Police said it was the worst case of suicide they had ever witnessed! :shit:

I know I know there is a special forum for this but I just felt it would fit right in here for today. Cheers John.

Had to read that twice, before I got it!! and aint that the truth. There was this advert for the independent Newspaper in the Uk

Anyway it started with a skinhead was walking along the street and from behind it looks like he is attacking an old lady,

the presenter waffles on about the independent giving a complete view of the news .. the camera pans back and you see the old lady being saved from a falling object ...

Now cut back to NZ ..7pm, dark and the police looking for a suspect....

Now not being a policeman, but I wonder if you average Golightly would go on
generalisations , I know it works for cars

lowered Mazda rotary, with dice and a boom box , is most likely to be driven by a spooty yoof with pimples,,, fast and erratically

Stephen

BTW ,,I have just spotted a yellow leaf on the tree outside YESSS , this means Autumn is only a month away !! its 33 today with 74 percent humidity

suxs to be here!

[Winston001]

The big question is.... should (emphasis on should) the descendants of long dead folks honour the treaty the said long dead folks signed?? If someone could have a crack at answering that, i would much appreciate it.

Ok. Yes. We already do. It's called Magna Carta. And the doctrine of Habeas Corpus is alive and well today as an example of its relevance.

We honour the agreements and rules decided by dead men centuries ago all of the time.

[Winston001]

The Maori got a pretty good deal,and still are getting a pretty good deal - better than any other indigenous race on the planet.We should be proud of that -

Good point. I can't think of another indigenous race which has been treated as well - even if it is rather late. The Inuit are gaining similar recognition to Maori. But the dominant attitude towards American Indians and Australian Aborigines is shocking. They aren't even regarded as human beings by some red-necks.

[Winston001]

An interesting freudian slip.( deul)

Do you mean this? http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0067023/ Great movie.

[Winston001]

That may be true. But it was a few hundred years ago. They are now a full part of this nation and have the same rights as every other NZ citizen, but because of past errors they are now above normal citizens.

It was 166 years ago - about 4 or 5 generations. Not long. Croatians still rage about Vlad the Impaler 600 years ago.

Not sure why you think Maori are above normal citizens. The problem is that they've been marginalised for decades. They still have a helleva long way to go to reach the level of normal citizens.

Having said that, many Maori are decent middle-class people with ordinary aspirations. Indiscernible from the rest of us.

[Patrick]

I think it is shit that people think being culturally sensitive means ripping down names that have stood for hundreds of years named by our countries forefathers who helped shape this nation, and just replacing them with some Maori name.

Gotta take issue here... Mt Taranaki was Mt Taranaki until the forefathers cameover and decided to change its name "by just replacing it with some European name..."

[sAsLEX]

Not sure why you think Maori are above normal citizens. The problem is that they've been marginalised for decades. They still have a helleva long way to go to reach the level of normal citizens.



Because thats whats written in the RMA and proven through case law up to the privy council, thats why!

[Patrick]

I've said it before "Northland is Viking country"

And the Te Kuiti area is viKING COUNTRY...

[Swoop]

Do you mean this? http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0067023/ Great movie.

No.
I meant your spelling of Dual. As in multiple.

You spelt it Duel, as in Back to back ten paces, turn and fire. "Draw swords and begin the duel"... "Sir, I challenge you to a duel".

[Skyryder]

Can somebody tell me (a question I've never had a clear answer to) why Maori are defined as being 'native' when they are immigrants to this land, as everyone else after them, by their own recollection/history?

The word native as used in your context simply means 'of a particular place.' As in born in Christchurch. I'm a native of Christchurch and also a native of New Zealand becasue this is where I was born The term native is a colonial expression used for indigenouse peoples by explorers and colonists who were born in another country. It presumed and inferiour culture which some still take offence to this day.

Maori that are born here are not immigrants. Their ancestors as did mine emmigrated.

Skyryder

[Colapop]

So if we are all decended from immgrants then aren't we, all of us who were born here, native and therefore, given that reasoning, entitled to 'native rights'? What then is a race or species that orginates in a particular place called? To my understanding, something like the Moa which are a native species. I'm confused.

[Patrick]

I have an Irish name, my dad was a jockey but I am 6'2 and my parents are Swedish... and you're confused?

[Skyryder]

So if we are all decended from immgrants then aren't we, all of us who were born here, native and therefore, given that reasoning, entitled to 'native rights'? What then is a race or species that orginates in a particular place called? To my understanding, something like the Moa which are a native species. I'm confused.

I'm not too sure what you mean. There appears to be two parts to your question.

1 Native rights
2 Orogin of species.

2 has nothing to do with Native or Indigenous. For example Maori origins are speculitive. Nothing certain is known. Plenty of theories but certainty?, That's another ball game.

Native and Indigenouse are places of birth or in the case of flora and fauna their natural habitat.

I will look at your question two ways.

1 Native Rights as in all New Zealanders. Under both civil and criminal law yes we all have the same rights.

2 Native Rights as in Maori as a people, there are Treaty concerns that only applie the Iwi signatories. This is why urban maori are not party to the Treaty.

Maori 'tradionally' do not see themselves as a singular race or people but a culture with common themes (moko etc). Their predominate identity is their Iwi.

Hope this helps

Skyryder

[marty]

....and our weapon was love....


*sniff* that's bootiful motu....

[andrea]

that's a viewpoint - but outright derogitory name-calling can't really be classed as 'valid criticism', can it;

the brickbats Finn got were, to my mind, more for his bigotted language than for his viewpoint ............ as you yourself said

oops the top of my post was a supposed to be a quote

[Finn]

I have an Irish name, my dad was a jockey but I am 6'2 and my parents are Swedish... and you're confused?

Hej Patrick. Ursakta att jag sager men det kanske betyder du ar adopterad. :shit:

[Patrick]

Hej Patrick. Ursakta att jag sager men det kanske betyder du ar adopterad. :shit:

"Hey Patrick" and the last "bet you are adopted?" is all I can get...unsure what you just called me tho...:shit:

[Finn]

"Hey Patrick" and the last "bet you are adopted?" is all I can get...unsure what you just called me tho...:shit:

Translation would be: Sorry to break this to you, but perhaps you're adopted.

[candor]

Yet "pakeha" seem to often be sen by Maori as one homogenous group!

Wouldn't it be unifying if we all agreed we all originated from 2 common monkeys in Africa before the great diaspora - oh, we could always name them Adam and Eve.

Tarianas choice of language is interesting - very Kiwi "we need money to FIGHT the abuse". Toughness and violence permeates our culture. Where else would you get boxing matches for suicide prevention etc. We're RUGGED, meybe thats why we're buggered!

I think its the Nordic countries where prisons are full of their worst offenders - hardcore bicycle thieves.

[sAsLEX]

And the Te Kuiti area is viKING COUNTRY...

From what I have read "Taranaki" as it wasn't know as then was smoking as they ventured up the west coast so they continued on to Northland....

[Waylander]

A planned $30 million Maori-themed development in northern Texas called Kiora Park is cultural theft, maori say.

The proposed 250-apartment development in Plano, near Dallas, is being promoted as having a New Zealand architectural theme "by incorporating elements from homes in that region".
WTF? Should have read this sooner cause guess what town I lived in before coming to NZ.

Never even heard of it before and something that big would have been everywhere. Not even my mates that still live there have said anything.

[Waylander]

Good point. I can't think of another indigenous race which has been treated as well - even if it is rather late. The Inuit are gaining similar recognition to Maori. But the dominant attitude towards American Indians and Australian Aborigines is shocking. They aren't even regarded as human beings by some red-necks.
Some rednecks but very few, says the redneck with Navajo bloodlines...

[thehollowmen]

And the doctrine of Habeas Corpus is alive and well today as an example of its relevance.

ahahahhahahhahahhahahahahahahahhahhahahahahaha
*deep breath*
ahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha haha

or, one that SpankMe might understand:
55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555 555

Really? Habeas Corpus? I think that's been falling to the wayside lately. Overseas and in NZ.

Yes we have some laws made by long dead men. Many laws have also been created based on religious doctrine, which arguably has been one of the most successful forms of population behavor control.

I think question would be better interperated as: Do we have to abide by a *contract* that long dead people of our ethnic group (or not) signed years ago?

[Colapop]

I have an Irish name, my dad was a jockey but I am 6'2 and my parents are Swedish... and you're confused?
And that Tall black milkman that visited so often (the one that your mother said was your 'uncle') had no part in this?

[spudchucka]

Post 1.

I see that you have found your capital "M" for at least some of your post. Does that mean you now have 50% respect for the Tangata Whenua. Why the change of heart? Aren't they all just digusting, fat, useless, good for nothing animals?

[mattp]

Maori that are born here are not immigrants. Their ancestors as did mine emmigrated.


This is something that I think a lot of people need to understand. People over here in England always talk of the Maori people being the first people of NZ. I do always put them correct that there were people before them and Maori people came from the Islands to the North of NZ.

Anyway, that is history and NZ needs to look at todays children and the world that is growing with millions of children that are pushed harder and helped more to do better in life.

I would love it if people could get over the UK V Maori history problem and see that NZ kids need to get along before our country grows large splits because of race :(

[Dafe]

Sheesh, Just went past the wangavegas police shop and noticed a sign on the front door. All staff on Annual Leave for the next few days, due to no work.

Whats up with that???

[Lou Girardin]

Will some PLEASE think about the Morioris.
Or, as they were known to their new neighbours - lunch.

[Finn]

I see that you have found your capital "M" for at least some of your post. Does that mean you now have 50% respect for the Tangata Whenua. Why the change of heart? Aren't they all just digusting, fat, useless, good for nothing animals?

My thread was a huge mistake. What I meant to say was...

Note: I purposely spelt pigs without a captial P basically because I have absolutely no respect for these digusting, fat, useless, good for nothing animals. I'm sure all the bleeding hearts will say "Not all pigs are bad." and "One of my best mates is a pig" well fuck them and fuck all this political correctness. It's not working. If they had a true indenity and cared for the community they would be looking after us a lot better.

Actually, there is some truth in saying that NZ is responsible. We've given them too much rope.

This new version of Word is a real bitch. Anyway, happy now?

[Skyryder]

I think question would be better interperated as: Do we have to abide by a *contract* that long dead people of our ethnic group (or not) signed years ago?

It depends who the 'dead' men represented. In the case of the Treaty of Waitangi it is the Crown. Then men who signed it are long gone but the Crown is still active in New Zealand.

If New Zealand becomes a republic it is probable that Treaty provisions will be incorperated into the New Zealand Constitution. Given the importance that the Treaty is now considered our founding document (I don't hold this view) it is more than likely that this will occur.

New Zealand became an independent dominion on 26 September 1907, by Royal Proclamation. This too me is the founding document of New Zealand.


Skyryder

[Paul in NZ]

Will some PLEASE think about the Morioris.
Or, as they were known to their new neighbours - lunch.

There is considerable debate about this - the current thinking is the Moriori were NOT a seperate race and there is little if no creditable edvidence that there was a seperate society.

Most likely, the 'great fleet' idea is a bit like 'The first four ships' idea in cantab.

ie, there was a great fleet but other canoes probably arrived before and maybe afterwards.... Some scholars believe the legends of the great navigators etc indicate that at some stage there was traffic backwards and forwards but given the currents, it would be difficult.

I'm afraid, that apart from a few lost fishermen, exploring chinese or malays, lost dutchmen of vikings left by flying saucers and drunken spaniards biffing helmets into harbours..... The evidence all points to Maori being the first people to settle the land.

However, the golden age of Maori civilisation, that of the noble savage like the plains indians was a bit of an exageration. Maori were in problems protein wise. Sure, there was a lot of fish BUT once the Moa went, they had a problem. Kumera would not grow in the far south and they had problems storing food for winter and journeys....

Maori were quite chuffed when europeans arrived and were very quick to see the advantages of the technology of the time - indeed they surprised the early settlers in many instances. :innocent:

[Colapop]

Mate, We (Vikings) got here first and you don't see us moaning about not getting enough handouts...

[Crisis management]

This is getting all too deep for me, I prefer my life simple.
However, I have a strong belief in personal responsibility and its great to see you addressing the mistakes made in the previous thread this way Finn, I hope the other protaganists from the previous fight can learn from this and cough up in public as well.
Regards, Iain.

[GIXser]

Fact is:

Nz socially,politically and economically is fucked, we have a governement that is so left wing it aint funny, that and the fact they started the Maori/European issue decades ago, even though most of us 97.5 % (at a guess) couldnt care less about the differences,

unfortunately this shit with the Maori issues is never gonna be resolved never ever,, because nothing is ever good enough, never enough funding for Iwi, never enough education, never enough publicity, never enough culture sensitivity,,,etc the list goes on..
this offcourse goes hand in hand with our great leaders,seems we manged to gather all of the shit in new zealand, put em all in an office together and named it the "beehive" whom are nothing more than glorified weed smoking hippies (no offence Nador tanchez or whatever ya fuckin name is)

I love this country , and most of its people, however i dont want my kids to grow up with this shit,,like most, the plan is to escape to oz,,, eventually

[Skyryder]

Fact is:

Nz socially,politically and economically is fucked, we have a governement that is so left wing it aint funny, that and the fact they started the Maori/European issue decades ago, even though most of us 97.5 % (at a guess) couldnt care less about the differences.

It was National that started it. Doug Graham to be precise. That's the fact and not the one you have stated. Bone up a bit on NZ history.............like it was only yesterday...............or there abouts.

Skyryder

[scumdog]

Big question in my mind is: why did the Maori leave Hawai-iki in the first place???

[Finn]

It was National that started it. Doug Graham to be precise. That's the fact and not the one you have stated. Bone up a bit on NZ history.............like it was only yesterday...............or there abouts.

Skyryder

Irrespective of who started it, the current Govt has made things much worse and over the past 3 terms record numbers of hard working, educated kiwi's have made the decision to get the hell out. Labour think this is good and these people are unlikely to vote left and have used this opportunity to replace them with the worlds undesirables who love auntie helen.

[Motu]

Muldoon used to openly laugh at the people who left under his ''rule''.You must of been a little boy in shorts then Finn.

[Finn]

You must of been a little boy in shorts then Finn.

And I was really cute too.

[Motu]

Big question in my mind is: why did the Maori leave Hawai-iki in the first place???

The Polynesians were the greatest navigators in history,travelling out to every spec in the vast Pacific.Lots of theories have been pondered about how they did it.I'm reading a book at the moment by Lyall watson called ''Heaven's Breath'',it's about the wind.Lyall Watson wrote the great hippy Bible Supernature,I'm still a hippy,so I still read his books.

In it he talks about how the Polynesians navigated - by the waves.Waves are caused by wind,and each type of wind forms a particular type of wave,travelling in a certain direction.Some will make a long deep swell,some short and choppy,so even waves travelling in the same direction have different wave lengths.The navigators learned these waves....they would be put in the water to feel the waves,some navigators lie in the bottom of their boat and feel the swells....some stand up and feel the sway and pendulum effect of their testicals (thought you might like that bit) And like bats sending out sound waves,land has an effect on wave patterns - that's how they found their way to all those scattered specs.

So they knew there was something big down here,they just had to come have a look see.But they didn't find a tropical paradise,no bountiful fruit for the picking - Cook found a people on the point of starvation,he liberated his own breeding stock from his ship in the hope they would supply the Maori with food.

[idb]

Fact is:

Nz socially,politically and economically is fucked, we have a governement that is so left wing it aint funny, that and the fact they started the Maori/European issue decades ago, even though most of us 97.5 % (at a guess) couldnt care less about the differences,



Phew...............
So you're saying that a country with a left wing government is automatically doomed?
Are you saying that the Labour government started the 'Maori/European issue'?

[idb]

- Cook found a people on the point of starvation,he liberated his own breeding stock from his ship in the hope they would supply the Maori with food.
Although he was sympathetic to the resident people my understanding was that he left stuff for future expeditions from England.

[Finn]

Oh dear.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10397096

[spudchucka]

My thread was a huge mistake. What I meant to say was...

Note: I purposely spelt pigs without a captial P basically because I have absolutely no respect for these digusting, fat, useless, good for nothing animals. I'm sure all the bleeding hearts will say "Not all pigs are bad." and "One of my best mates is a pig" well fuck them and fuck all this political correctness. It's not working. If they had a true indenity and cared for the community they would be looking after us a lot better.

Actually, there is some truth in saying that NZ is responsible. We've given them too much rope.

This new version of Word is a real bitch. Anyway, happy now?Yes, thats the response I was expecting from you.

[spudchucka]

Oh dear.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10397096

Right, I get it now, your thread was about child abuse. Well guess what baldy, plenty of white trash abuse their kids too.

[750Y]

..we all originated from 2 common monkeys in Africa..

lmao, i'll put the billy on..

[GIXser]

The Polynesians were the greatest navigators in history,travelling out to every spec in the vast Pacific.Lots of theories have been pondered about how they did it.I'm reading a book at the moment by Lyall watson called ''Heaven's Breath'',it's about the wind.Lyall Watson wrote the great hippy Bible Supernature,I'm still a hippy,so I still read his books.

In it he talks about how the Polynesians navigated - by the waves.Waves are caused by wind,and each type of wind forms a particular type of wave,travelling in a certain direction.Some will make a long deep swell,some short and choppy,so even waves travelling in the same direction have different wave lengths.The navigators learned these waves....they would be put in the water to feel the waves,some navigators lie in the bottom of their boat and feel the swells....some stand up and feel the sway and pendulum effect of their testicals (thought you might like that bit) And like bats sending out sound waves,land has an effect on wave patterns - that's how they found their way to all those scattered specs.

So they knew there was something big down here,they just had to come have a look see.But they didn't find a tropical paradise,no bountiful fruit for the picking - Cook found a people on the point of starvation,he liberated his own breeding stock from his ship in the hope they would supply the Maori with food.

yeah they were really good navigators.... thats why they settled in Europe and discovered lots and lots of country's,,, DUh.......let s face it they arent the brightest ,, look nothing against poly's but hey its not like they invented the wheel, or anything more advanced than that, whilst the rest of the world was playing around with splitting atoms,, the poly's were hacking each other to pieces, and shrinking heads,,,, whhoooooo,,,,,, now there's a discovery!!!

[Skyryder]

Irrespective of who started it, the current Govt has made things much worse and over the past 3 terms record numbers of hard working, educated kiwi's have made the decision to get the hell out. Labour think this is good and these people are unlikely to vote left and have used this opportunity to replace them with the worlds undesirables who love auntie helen.


We also have the lowest unemployment rate too.

The reality of NZ politics under the MMP system is trade off's. With the demise of the Allaince Labour now has no Party that it can rely on. National has ACT. Small yes but reliable for support. The Greens have not ruled out a coalition with National and this too is true of the Maori Party. Given the state of play between the Helen Clarke and Tariana Turia the natural alliance between Maori and Labour will be in doubt for the forseeable future.

So Labour to shore up it's support for Maori has gone after the urban Maori vote. Their success can be measured in the small percentage that switched to the Maori Roll. If the Maori Party ever becomes the defining party in NZ politics what has happened in the last three years will pale in comparison. Be greatfull Finn that Labour have walked a fine line in this too some success I might add. I don't agree with some of the rhetoric of Maori politicians but that is all it is, rhetoric designed for local consumption.

I along with many others still think NZ is the best place in the world to live. Those that don't, don't have to stay here. That's their choice.

Skyryder

[roogazza]

yeah they were really good navigators.... thats why they settled in Europe and discovered lots and lots of country's,,, DUh.......let s face it they arent the brightest ,, look nothing against poly's but hey its not like they invented the wheel, or anything more advanced than that, whilst the rest of the world was playing around with splitting atoms,, the poly's were hacking each other to pieces, and shrinking heads,,,, whhoooooo,,,,,, now there's a discovery!!!

Now that is funny, and true ! I reckon they just went fishing and went a bit far ! Gaz.

[mattp]

Wouldn't it be unifying if we all agreed we all originated from 2 common monkeys in Africa before the great diaspora

My only question here is why do we look so different, talk different and most imprtant why can there be no path to the start of a people and their race?

I base my feelings if someone is a $unt then they are a $unt no matter what colour or race :rockon:

[WINJA]

The Polynesians were the greatest navigators in history,travelling out to every spec in the vast Pacific.Lots of theories have been pondered about how they did it.I'm reading a book at the moment by Lyall watson called ''Heaven's Breath'',it's about the wind.Lyall Watson wrote the great hippy Bible Supernature,I'm still a hippy,so I still read his books.

In it he talks about how the Polynesians navigated - by the waves.Waves are caused by wind,and each type of wind forms a particular type of wave,travelling in a certain direction.Some will make a long deep swell,some short and choppy,so even waves travelling in the same direction have different wave lengths.The navigators learned these waves....they would be put in the water to feel the waves,some navigators lie in the bottom of their boat and feel the swells....some stand up and feel the sway and pendulum effect of their testicals (thought you might like that bit) And like bats sending out sound waves,land has an effect on wave patterns - that's how they found their way to all those scattered specs.

So they knew there was something big down here,they just had to come have a look see.But they didn't find a tropical paradise,no bountiful fruit for the picking - Cook found a people on the point of starvation,he liberated his own breeding stock from his ship in the hope they would supply the Maori with food.

SO THEY WERE LOOKING FOR AUSSIE THEN

[Motu]

whilst the rest of the world !

No,just us white guys - the niggers,the abbos,the chinks are all incredibly stupid - the white man rules the world because he's a superior being.

[Finn]

We also have the lowest unemployment rate too.

Skyryder

No we don't. The stats don't count all the people on benefits.

[Finn]

Right, I get it now, your thread was about child abuse. Well guess what baldy, plenty of white trash abuse their kids too.

Did you also know that there are six recognised dairy goat breeds in the United States: Alpine, La Mancha, Oberhasli, Nubian, Saanen, Toggenburg.
Each breed of dairy goat gives a different tasting milk. Oberhasli goats give milk that tastes closest to cow's milk.

Got anything else you want to add SpudForbrains?

[Milky]

Came across this in the herald yesterday, and thought it was quite good - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/search/story.cfm?storyid=000C1592-79F6-14E5-A5A783027AF1010A
Actually distributing the wealth from treaty settlements to the people, rather than investing it in white elephants... *cough* Tainui and the warriors...

[Swoop]

We also have the lowest unemployment rate too.
Unfortunately we are afflicted by "lies, damned lies and statistics" once again.
There has been a policy of moving people OFF the unemployment benefit and onto the sickness benefit.
This taints the truth that our unemployment rate is low. We taxpayers are still paying substantial amounts for part of our population to sit at home and watch afternoon TV.

[spudchucka]

Did you also know that there are six recognised dairy goat breeds in the United States: Alpine, La Mancha, Oberhasli, Nubian, Saanen, Toggenburg.
Each breed of dairy goat gives a different tasting milk. Oberhasli goats give milk that tastes closest to cow's milk.

Only a goat-shagger would know that. Did you suckle straight from Oberhasli's teat?

[The_Dover]

Only a goat-shagger would know that. Did you suckle straight from Oberhasli's teat?

let me guess spud, your dad's bigger than finn's dad isn't he?

[terbang]

I think that Political Correctness (PC) plays a big part in creating the misunderstanding that we now see between different ethnic groups in NZ and other parts of the world. PC tends to stifle direct and constructive communication and has the effect of sweeping the real issues under the mat.
The UK has had its share of tension between the Poms and Pakistani immigrants. My observation was that the Poms would speak amongst themselves, often badly, about issues with the Pakistanis and vice versa. Of course there are likely to be issues as they are the meeting point of two different races and cultures. When it came to anything official on race relations, the truth seemed to be lost amidst a load of PC babble and sweet talk. So the dissent, frustration and malice continued behind closed doors and eventually boiled over into riots in Leeds Bradford and so on. I suspect that similar has been happening in Aussie resulting in racial tensions and riots in Byron Bay recently between Other Aussies and Lebanese Aussies.
On extremes we see (here on this board as well) boorish type expression that only serves to provoke a fight versus the truth being smothered in PC honey to make it politically palatable.
The extremes don't work so what is really needed is open honest and constructive debate, allowing the real issues between Maori and others (pakeha included) to become clear. Finns first thread was definatly on one end of the spectrum and this one is now starting to float around somewhere in the middle. Full marks Finn for realising that you were a pratt, admitting it and now provoking realistic speak.

[Skyryder]

No we don't. The stats don't count all the people on benefits.

The official unemployed rates are an internationally recognised figure for unemployment based on the Household Labour Force Survey run by Statistics New Zealand.
These are the latest figures for March 2006 .

3.9% Unemployment.


Go to

http://www.jobsletter.org.nz/stt/stathome.htm


So find me a site that reputes these figures and is internationaly recognised.





Skyryder

[Finn]

I never trust any stats coming out of government. While I understand that unemployment is down, it has absolutely nothing to do with this governments policies nor does it have anything to do with the topic of this thread.

[Skyryder]

I never trust any stats coming out of government. While I understand that unemployment is down, it has absolutely nothing to do with this governments policies nor does it have anything to do with the topic of this thread.


So find me a site that reputes these figures and is internationaly recognised.

I'm still waiting Finn. :zzzz: :zzzz: :zzzz:

What was the topic again?? Oh I forgot. Looking for warm Fuzzies. :love: :love:


Skyryder

[scumdog]

I never trust any stats coming out of government. While I understand that unemployment is down, it has absolutely nothing to do with this governments policies nor does it have anything to do with the topic of this thread.

Sure the stats may not tell the truth - but they are relatively consistant to the annual fluctuations and will show a pattern regardless of the 'exact' figures.

[Finn]

Sure the stats may not tell the truth - but they are relatively consistant to the annual fluctuations and will show a pattern regardless of the 'exact' figures.

Yip, I'm happy with that. However I would like Skyryder to explain exactly what Labour have done to reduce unemployment. I take it he is talking about the same Labour that is anti business & progress?

[avgas]

I want a chocolate bar..............


















































please :)

Me too..... i like chocolate

[Lou Girardin]

There is considerable debate about this - the current thinking is the Moriori were NOT a seperate race and there is little if no creditable edvidence that there was a seperate society.



It was widely accepted until the Maori renaissance. Of course, it suited them to rewrite history and become the first to settle here.

[Quasievil]

It was widely accepted until the Maori renaissance. Of course, it suited them to rewrite history and become the first to settle here.

How and why would it matter ?

[Motu]

You seen photo's of the Moriori? What do they look like? They are Polynesian...same dudes man.Same as the Moa Hunters,they reckon they were here before the main landings...same dudes again.They had been coming here in dribs and drabs a long time before they decided to send out a main force.Turf War - nothing changes.

[Finn]

You can almost draw parallels between maori's & NZ and tensions between Israel & Palestine, Serbia & Croatia, etc. In the end, nobody wins.

And with the treaty industry being a huge cash machine for maori, it ain't gonna go away in a hurry.

God save the Queen (Elizabeth)

[sAsLEX]

It was widely accepted until the Maori renaissance. Of course, it suited them to rewrite history and become the first to settle here.

ummm sorry to break it to you but there was no written history as they could not write! So grandad just changed the story a bit and whammo he owned all the south island!

[mstriumph]

Oh dear.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10397096

a little crass, using something tragic like this to validate your earlier stance isn't it? especially in the midst of a thread which you [on the face of it] started specifically to apologise for that stance?

hmm :shifty: ......mebbe 'finn the prodigal' isn't reborn as snow-white as he'd have us believe .................

[Finn]

a little crass, using something tragic like this to validate your earlier stance isn't it? especially in the midst of a thread which you [on the face of it] started specifically to apologise for that stance?

hmm :shifty: ......mebbe 'finn the prodigal' isn't reborn as snow-white as he'd have us believe .................

All I did was refer to a NZ herald article with a title "Oh dear". This was in response to Spud's "White trash abuse their kids too you". Well of course they do, just not a much as maori. Not that it's a competition, but I am referring to maori issues here.

What I think is crass is Turiana using the twins death to demand MORE money from tax payers.

If this thread really upsets you, then ignore it sunshine :msn-wink:

[spudchucka]

All I did was refer to a NZ herald article with a title "Oh dear". This was in response to Spud's "White trash abuse their kids too you".

Really?

C'mon Mr Popularity, you have to know your own thread better than that.

Post 92:


Oh dear.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10397096

Post 94:


Right, I get it now, your thread was about child abuse. Well guess what baldy, plenty of white trash abuse their kids too.

[Finn]

Really?

C'mon Mr Popularity, you have to know your own thread better than that.

Post 92:



Post 94:

A banana how long? So I didn't quote you verbatim. That's gotta be 35 demerit points.

Geez Spud, this thread has really got your cute little pink tail in a twist. Take a chill pill big boy.

[scumdog]

There's a shit-load of chill-pill taking needed here - and not just by Spud....:yes:

[Finn]

There's a shit-poad of chill-pill taking needed here - and not just by Spud....:yes:

It's quite hard to say isn't it? If I was anymore chilled, I'd be dead.

[spudchucka]

A banana how long? So I didn't quote you verbatim. That's gotta be 35 demerit points.

Geez Spud, this thread has really got your cute little pink tail in a twist. Take a chill pill big boy.

This thread doesn't bother me at all, unlike the one you started that lead to you needing to justify yourself here.

You didn't quote me verbatim but I don't care at all about that. What you did was say that you posted that link in response to something that I had posted, which is totally incorrect.

I'll take a chill pill once you've pulled your over-size head in.

[Finn]

I'll take a chill pill once you've pulled your over-size head in.

Actually my head is of average size. It's just my midget body that makes it look big. Discrimination is like racism Spud so stop making fun of me you big ogre.

[Skyryder]

Yip, I'm happy with that. However I would like Skyryder to explain exactly what Labour have done to reduce unemployment. I take it he is talking about the same Labour that is anti business & progress?

http://www.labour.org.nz/policy/jobs_and_economy/2005policy/Pol05-Small_Business/index.html


You did ask.


Skyryder

[Drunken Monkey]

http://www.labour.org.nz/policy/jobs_and_economy/2005policy/Pol05-Small_Business/index.html

You did ask.

Skyryder

Not exactly an 'objective' material source.

I put to you that it's good old fashioned ingenuity and personal industriousness on the part of hard working people that has grown the economy; that (without extreme examples) this would have been the case irrespective of whether we had Labour, National or any other party as our government.

I don't recall the Country's economy falling into disarray and anarchy during the few months we techinically had 'no majority government' after the 2002 elections (edit: Wiki is your friend). Wasn't it quite the opposite?

Economies tend to boom & bust on their own cycles. I think the parties here just like to find convenient scape goats. To me, they're all equally worthless.

[Patrick]

Translation would be: Sorry to break this to you, but perhaps you're adopted.

But maybe me dad is a tall jockey?....

[750Y]

But maybe me dad is a tall jockey?....

No..No.. Patrick, that just won't work, all jockeys are short, skinny, useless, filthy animal riders..

[mstriumph]

........................
If this thread really upsets you, then ignore it sunshine :msn-wink:

:gob: heavens, sweetie, it doesn't upset me .................. i'm fascinated by the giveaway glimpses of pointy ears, hairy snout and big white teeth that keep showing thru your benign grandmother 'guise .......

...... and actually also fascinated by the varying levels of perception of this apparent from other posts here and how this affects the interaction between other contributors ......


.....so, you see, it ISN'T 'all about you' :laugh:

[Lou Girardin]

i'm fascinated by the giveaway glimpses of pointy ears, hairy snout and big white teeth that keep showing thru your benign grandmother 'guise .......


Finn, she's calling you a pig.

[mstriumph]

Finn, she's calling you a pig.

stirrer!!!! ..............

but nahhhhhhhhhh - entirely different fairy tale ........ and besides, pigs are misunderstood :innocent:

[Patrick]

No..No.. Patrick, that just won't work, all jockeys are short, skinny, useless, filthy animal riders..

my cat and dog disagree... they love Jellymeat... and cats are fussy little bastards.

[Lou Girardin]

...... and besides, pigs are misunderstood :innocent:

So's Finn.

[Patrick]

From what I have read "Taranaki" as it wasn't know as then was smoking as they ventured up the west coast so they continued on to Northland....

Mills and Boon???

[Lou Girardin]

. and cats are fussy little bastards.

Tell me about it.
Ours won't touch white wine, only red. Loves Thai, but not fussed on pasta.

[Patrick]

And that Tall black milkman that visited so often (the one that your mother said was your 'uncle') had no part in this?

I'm blind... are you telling me I am black too???????????????? Land Claim!!!!

[Patrick]

Tell me about it.
Ours won't touch white wine, only red. Loves Thai, but not fussed on pasta.

A cat with good taste too... ours licks his arse...

[mstriumph]

So's Finn.

bugger - my carefully-crafted, subtle, ironic witicism went awry *sigh*


mmm, ok - so you mean that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its ............. a giraffe?

*ponders............. or mebbe, if it looks like a dick ................ ??*

[Finn]

bugger - my carefully-crafted, subtle, ironic witicism went awry *sigh*


mmm, ok - so you mean that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its ............. a giraffe?

*ponders............. or mebbe, if it looks like a dick ................ ??*

Funny you should mention this. My mother always told me, just because a cat was born in the stable, doesn't make it a horse. I spent my entire childhood thinking I was a friggen cat. She was of course referring to me being the only family member born in NZ.

Are you calling me a dick? I'm confused, cause Dover calls me quite the opposite.

[SPman]

Are you calling me a dick? I'm confused, cause Dover calls me quite the opposite.
...thats love , for ya!

[Lou Girardin]

Are you calling me a dick? I'm confused, cause Dover calls me quite the opposite.

Does he treat you like one?

[Quasievil]

Hey guys,This is going towards PD wanna get it on track or I will have to move it

[mstriumph]

BUMMER Quasi ...... just when it was getting entertaining??

[mstriumph]

Funny you should mention this. My mother always told me, just because a cat was born in the stable, doesn't make it a horse. I spent my entire childhood thinking I was a friggen cat................



thank goodness!! ......... for a second there i thought you were going to say you were jesus .... :blink:


Are you calling me a dick? I'm confused, cause Dover calls me quite the opposite.

in order:-
1. no
2. yes, you probably are
3. too much information

[Lou Girardin]

Hey guys,This is going towards PD wanna get it on track or I will have to move it

A bit quiet on your forum? :innocent:

[Skyryder]

Hey guys,This is going towards PD wanna get it on track or I will have to move it

Just when the 'wordplay' gets interesting.............you come up with a headache.


Skyryder

[Quasievil]

I havent moved it you will notice, but you seem to have finished anyway.