Helping at motorcycle accidents [Archive]

JKWNZ

25th August 2006, 09:02

Passed a motorcycle accident last night at about 6pm on the Esmonde Rd off ramp... The guy looked in a pretty bad way and his bike was 100m further down from him on its side. (Yellow, >600cc, dual headlights... i.e. TL, SV etc)

Does anyone know how the guy is doing?

After pulling over thinking about what I could do to help I realised I didn't have a clue (given that two cars had already stopped and were... I'll call it loitering around the guy).

I've since decided that I need to go on a first aid course and thought someone out there might have an idea what you can actually do be helpful and not cause more problems - besides calling for an ambulance. In the least I wanted to upright his bike but thought are you interfering with an accident scene then?

Anyone got any ideas on whats good (given peoples experience) or not recommended (input from any Cops or Ambulance guys would be good)?

You can tell the potential to stuff up when trying to help is quite high... I heard the best you can do with a non-coherent motorcyclist is not move them at all... doesnt sound very helpful... any ideas

Sis

25th August 2006, 09:09

Don't remove the helmet!

Colapop

25th August 2006, 09:14

Having done a fair bit of first aid and a little emergency care stuff, my advice would be to get in touch with Red Cross or St Johns Ambulence. Both run very good first aid courses. Unless you have had training in further medical aid I wouldn't worry about anything other than insuring the basics of life are met for the injured. There are paid professionals out there who know what they are doing and have the resources to provide further care. And in most cases you'll be able to call for help from them and get it fairly quickly.
PM Speedie he may be able to suggest something (if he doesn't post in this thread)

James Deuce

25th August 2006, 09:29

Don't remove the helmet!

Yes and no.

If the person isn't breathing then you have no choice.

BUT.

I have seen some demonstrations of some very cool techniques for removing a helmet without moving the head or flexing the neck.

Keystone19

25th August 2006, 09:36

The guy who came off is fine. Minor injuries and discharged last night I believe.

JKWNZ

25th August 2006, 09:46

Glad to hear that he is fine.
He was splayed out when I saw him and not in the usual oh bugger position with head between the knees...

placidfemme

25th August 2006, 09:57

Hey, in regards to "what to do". SpeedMedic and some others on here organise a "First Aid Course" specifically for bikers once in a while. Keep an eye on the Survival Skills section for the next one... or posta thread in there requesting on and I'm sure someone can organise something... might be a good idea anyway with summer coming up... so possibly more need to have that knowledge with the increased bikes on the road...

Flyingpony

25th August 2006, 10:16

Got a reminder letter from Red Cross that my First Aid Cert is to expire end of October. I'd better get that refresher course done.

All you can do at an accident is provide some primary medical help if it's required and wait until the real medics arrive. You can also direct traffic/on lookers away from the accident site too.

Note: Work might be able to pay for your course if you are registered as an on-site first aider for Work place Health & Safety requirements :yes:

Freakshow

25th August 2006, 10:32

placidfemme

25th August 2006, 10:34

Does anybody do something like this in Wellington? I would be a starter:sunny:

I don't know to be honest... but I'm sure if you PM Speedmedic and enquire, he might have contacts in Wellington that can organise it for the Welly KBer's

Switch

25th August 2006, 10:37

I'm planning to take a first aid course through St. Johns its the
http://www.stjohn.org.nz/training/course.aspx?cid=100
Emergency First Aid course. Not sure when i'm going to take it, but a few of my mates want to do it also, would be helpfull in any situation.
Feel free to send me a pm if you want to join us.

sAsLEX

25th August 2006, 11:33

Don't remove the helmet!

Wrong, only remove the helmet if trained to do so, cause if he aint breathing not removing his helmet aint doing any favours him any favours!!!

him his can be swapped for her hers it its etc

EDIT I see jim beat me

pzkpfw

25th August 2006, 13:23

Does anybody do something like this in Wellington? I would be a starter:sunny:

Tawa college keep bunging junk mail in my mail box about their various adult courses.

One of them is a first aid course, over about two full-day Sundays, for about $60. (plus a book)

Been meaning to sign up for a while.

They seem to do it once per school term.

Cheers,

Squeak the Rat

25th August 2006, 13:29

Freakshow

25th August 2006, 13:37

I don't know to be honest... but I'm sure if you PM Speedmedic and enquire, he might have contacts in Wellington that can organise it for the Welly KBer's

Tawa college keep bunging junk mail in my mail box about their various adult courses.

One of them is a first aid course, over about two full-day Sundays, for about $60. (plus a book)

Been meaning to sign up for a while.

They seem to do it once per school term.

Cheers,

Thanks Guys will look into it!

:Punk:

The_Dover

25th August 2006, 13:39

I'd be grateful if anyone who rides with me or near me could brush up on their first aid.

BTW, my leathers have velcro down the sides so wont need to be cut off.

don't ask, it's my night job.

JKWNZ

25th August 2006, 13:41

Thanks for the input.

Looks as though my workplace might pay for me to do it. Will make me a tad more useful next time (hopefully there wont be a next time but...) I'll have to get a few emergency items for under the bike seat too

sunhuntin

25th August 2006, 18:00

ive done first aid about 3 times, but honestly, wouldnt have a clue what to do other than divert traffic and get on the phone to an ambo. in saying that, i wouldnt hesitate to stop and see if i was needed at all, unless there appeared to be enough people there, in which case id just be in the way.
even with my own wreck, landed on my back on the road, first thing i did was stagger upright and take my lid off, lol. in reality i should have stayed where i was and let them come to me. i also tried to move my gear off the road, but couldnt lift it.

Quartida

25th August 2006, 18:11

I think the best thing to do is call 111 and tell them the situation. If necessary they can tell you whether it would or would not be appropriate to administer any kind of first aid given the circumstances.

Certainly move the bike if it is going to be a hazard to other drivers (best not to have to have to do any more first aid than necessary).
I do know that it is best to avoid moving the person if at all possible because this may aggravate injuries that aren't necessarily immediately apparent. (But perhaps SM would like to back me up here?)

In terms of first aid courses, many "Community Education" courses (like the one from Tawa College, I'm guessing) in Auckland do a FREE first aid course. If you find out the community education providers in your area (try a citizens advice centre) you may manage to find one of these free courses.

It's nice to hear that we have people on the site who do stuff like this...I'll keep my eye out, as it seems a great idea. :yes:

Dadpole

25th August 2006, 23:22

quickbuck

25th August 2006, 23:56

First Aid Course is good,
If it is a generic one, be brave and ask motorcycling related questions.
I just did a one day one at work (RNZAF) last week, and turns out the Medic (Also an Ambo and Policeman's wife) is also a motorcyclist.
Had a good chat about the injuries I had sustained over the years of offs, and also the things I had gotten away with.

Like asking the St Johns lady for a drink of water as soon as i realised I had really stuffed my shoulder after binning the bucket racer.
Of course IF I needed surgery they need my stomach to be empty, I realised this, but I was very thirsty, so I had a big guzzle.

Also shared the story of how much a broken lower leg hurt when people were trying to splint it. We had to do this exact thing on a "patient" at the end of the day, it brought back very painful memories (8 years later).

One thing I will say about diverting traffic; If you can get a cage to stop further up the road it is good. It is dodgy, because people crash into emergency vehicles that are lit up, so if you try and park your bike somewhere they have no chance of seeing it.

Leave all your gear in (with your bike off the road) and wave cars to slow them down! Got told by a Fireman on the course, that he knows somebody why chucks shingle at cars that don't slow. Soon gets their attention.

Anyway, that is enough of my ramblings for tonight, have a great weekend everybody, and hope to see you all back on Monday.

Leong

26th August 2006, 06:27

For what it's worth, I will always stop if only to prevent some well-meaning person inflicting further harm. Removing helmet, move them etc. I once arrived late at a bin (knew the bloke) where the punters had lifted the trailer off the guy (good) then moved him off the road (bad).

I always thought that safety, both your own and the patients was top of the list. So does this mean that an unresponsive patient should be moved off the road? Also, if the patient isn't breathing, brain damage will occur within a few minutes. If this is the case, then the helmet should be removed, preferably by two people, one to try to immobilise the head and neck, and the other to expand the helmet sideways and lift it off carefully, in order to clear the airway and begin CPR if necessary.

I'm guessing these sorts of threads pop up from time to time and look forward to Speedie's contribution!!

inlinefour

26th August 2006, 09:21

Yes and no.

If the person isn't breathing then you have no choice.

BUT.

I have seen some demonstrations of some very cool techniques for removing a helmet without moving the head or flexing the neck.

Unless the riders life is going to be affected by the possibility of death, please never take a helmet off the rider (better to be alive than dead eh). There is no way of asertaining what sort of damage has been done. I'm sure no one wants to be responsible for a rider not being able to ride again, let alone walk. I suspect that the techniques mentioned above involved more that one professionally trained individual. As for the dude that started this thread, I hope the accident has inspired you to go and do a comprehensive forst aid programe. They are not cheap, but well worth the effort. :done:

I'd be grateful if anyone who rides with me or near me could brush up on their first aid.

BTW, my leathers have velcro down the sides so wont need to be cut off.

don't ask, it's my night job.

Do I hear dueling banjos?

James Deuce

26th August 2006, 10:00

Unless the riders life is going to be affected by the possibility of death, please never take a helmet off the rider (better to be alive than dead eh).

If they're not breathing you have no choice. The techniques don't involve extensive training either. Just some training.

I repeat. If they're not breathing you have no choice. I don't think I could be any clearer.

Deano

26th August 2006, 10:09

I once arrived late at a bin (knew the bloke) where the punters had lifted the trailer off the guy (good)

Should you be careful doing that - any weighty object may be stopping extensive blood loss from legs etc ?

I once heard about a guy whose legs were trapped under/in the dash of his car - he was alive and talking until they removed him, then found he had a huge gash and he bled out within minutes.

Isn't it just better to keep them 'stable' until the experts arrive ?

Bugger the road blockage and traffic build up.

26th August 2006, 10:36

Wise words I was given by a racing instructor years ago. If you come off, resist the urge to get straight up. Just lie still for a while even if your first impression is shit I'm alive I must be fine! Go through a slow check list that the bod is OK - move a foot, then the other one, then raise a leg, arm etc .. slowly raise/move your head before you try and get to your feet.

Dadpole

26th August 2006, 10:40

Lifting a trailer etc off carefully should be OK. My problem is with the people who immediately try to get the victim off the road. In the case I mentioned, the lane was blocked by cars but traffic could still get by with no real problem. These gits decided that dragging an unconcious person was a good idea, then they left him in a sitting position.:gob:

RT527

26th August 2006, 10:52

Even just knowing about the rules for not removing a riders helmet makes it important to get quickly to the scene of such an accident to prevent some one else attempting to remove said helmet.

A lot of people just don't know, and you might be able to prevent some ignorant or mis-informed person from doing more/serious damage.

Yup Having said all that Like Jim2 said, if he aint breathing taking his helmet off is only 1 option, you can still maintain an airway in someone with a helmet on,just cant do mouth to mouth.
One thing tho I have to stress is if you must remove the helmet to assist in reviving the guy then please remember to release/remove the chin strap , you might say thats obvious but in an adrenaline filled atmosphere youd be surprised what people do, one incident we went to MC vrs Drain, bystanders had actually dragged the unconcious patient from the drain and had 1 person on the feet and 1 on the helmet trying to pull his head off cause they hadnt undone his chin strap,lucky the guy had no neck injurys from the accident.
But I cant stress enough that unless its absolutly vital to gaining an Airway , Leave the helmet/bike/person in the same position as you found them.........First thing tho make sure its safe for you and anyone else before you administer First Aid.
Its simple if it aint safe dont do it.
chances are if its a bad enough accident he prolly wont survive and if it isnt safe for you you wont either.

Deano

26th August 2006, 10:58

If you want to know the proper technique for removal come and see me, or go into your local Ambo station, they will be happy to show you. Basiclly unstrap it(we cut em to prevent re-use), get someone to hold their head/neck from the front, while you jiggle their helmet off, taking care not to move it round too much.

Should you also spread the straps carefully (as you do when removing your own helmet) as this helps loosen the helmet from the head, thus reducing the amount of 'jiggling ' required ?

Wise words I was given by a racing instructor years ago. If you come off, resist the urge to get straight up. Just lie still for a while even if your first impression is shit I'm alive I must be fine! Go through a slow check list that the bod is OK - move a foot, then the other one, then raise a leg, arm etc .. slowly raise/move your head before you try and get to your feet.

Unlike when I biffed my SP-1.....I had hardly stopped bouncing down the road before I jumped up and ran back to the bike cursing.

Deano

26th August 2006, 11:14

Yes you should.

BTW - your avatar sig thingee just reminded me about Poo's crash.

During a crash, kick the bike away if possible - don't hang onto it or it may drag you into more trouble, or you might get tangled up in it.

Riff Raff

26th August 2006, 12:20

Yeah, what Speedie said.

Also folks, when you ring 111 and talk to ambulance they can guide you through what you need to do for the patient. And they'll stay on the line for as long as you need them to, to talk you through it.

And everyone who rides a bike should have some first aid training. If you haven't got any, please go and do a course. You never know when you may have to use your skills.

inlinefour

26th August 2006, 13:04

If they're not breathing you have no choice. The techniques don't involve extensive training either. Just some training.

I repeat. If they're not breathing you have no choice. I don't think I could be any clearer.

I was reinforcing your comments Jim, or so I thought...:mellow:

Leong

26th August 2006, 14:57

Dont move them off the road, bugger the traffic hold ups, they can all wait.

Any questions, fire away

So say the patient's lying on the road, round a blind corner, and you're first on the scene, the first thing to do would be to stop the traffic, get help to warn/stop following traffic, then check if the patient's responsive, call 111 as necessary, and if necessary do your first aid on the road? Is that "safe"? What are the complications of moving the patient to the side of the road?

petesmeats

26th August 2006, 15:05

Sweet there is some real good stuff here that i would not have known before now... What sort of gear should i have on the bike or with me when i'm riding??? i.e bandages or tools or anything... I have never really had anything with me when riding before... Any ideas? What is the most effective way of alerting traffic?

sunhuntin

26th August 2006, 18:55

BTW - your avatar sig thingee just reminded me about Poo's crash.

During a crash, kick the bike away if possible - don't hang onto it or it may drag you into more trouble, or you might get tangled up in it.

yep, with my bin i remember thinking "on impact, jump!" id didnt try and lay it down or use the breaks in any way. i knew there would be contact and as a result, kept the bike upright. my front end connected with her left side headlight. the minute they hit, i literally pushed up from the pegs [using the impact as a "springboard"] went right over her bonnet and landed on the other side. the bike fell sideways im assuming right in front of the car. had i have tried to lay it down or anything else, im certain i would have ended up up in oncoming traffic. also prevented the cow from driving off. lol.

i remember reading a while back about that, and thinking at the time you wouldnt have time to think. lmfao. proved myself wrong.

when i did land, i think i took a couple of seconds to realise i wasnt dead, and then my body did an instant self analysis, so i got up. the instant i managed to get up, my leg started complaining....thought it might be broken, but wanted off the road too bad. even wanted to go to work. hehehe

Leong

26th August 2006, 19:55

Complications of moving the patient to the roadside is aggravating a possible cervical spine injury, back injury or both (??severe spinal cord.. want to take that risk), if there are fractures, like femurs...common in motorcycle crashes, you can run the risk of the fracture compounding (poking out through the flesh) if it hasnt already, or the sharp bone edges severing life sustaining arteries.. Just leave em there.

Yeah, you wouldn't want to sever a femoral artery!! Thanks Speedie... another question.

Is there such a thing as a "typical" motorbike accident? You mention that the fractured femur is common...

sunhuntin

26th August 2006, 20:05

Yeah, you wouldn't want to sever a femoral artery!! Thanks Speedie... another question.

Is there such a thing as a "typical" motorbike accident? You mention that the fractured femur is common...

likely cos the legs take most of the hit id imagine.

Katman

26th August 2006, 20:33

Don't worry about me - pick ma fuckin' bike up!

Riff Raff

27th August 2006, 13:17

Is there such a thing as a "typical" motorbike accident? You mention that the fractured femur is common...
Usually caused by legs impacting with handlebars in crash - so it is often seen in motorbike crashes. Too many variables with motorbike crashes to give you typical injuries - I assume you are enquiring about other typical injuries you might see. Because you have very little protection on a motorbike, you are likely to see the whole range of injuries - from minor like a bit of road rash to severe, life threatening injuries. This is why it is important for us to do a thorough secondary survey, which is a check from head to toe for injuries.

Leong

27th August 2006, 14:28

Too many variables with motorbike crashes to give you typical injuries - I assume you are enquiring about other typical injuries you might see.

Yes. Just wanting a heads up on the likely injuries that occur so that one can be more prepared.

In the last 12mths I have witnessed one and been quite early at the scene of two other motorcycle accidents, none involving even minor injuries fortunately. In the case I witnessed the rider narrowly missed hitting a large rock which may have changed the outcome quite dramatically. Prior to getting my bike - none in 30yrs of driving, so perhaps brushing up on the First Aid/CPR skills would be a good idea!!

Korea

27th August 2006, 15:44

Everyone should read this (if you haven't already)

Accident Scene Management
a talk by: Slider Gilmore

http://www.molenda.com/accident.html

(I'm sure this is a repost but it goes back a while so I'm sure we'll all benefit from a repeat session.)

It starts like this:

The first hour of trauma is termed the ``Golden Hour'' by the Emergency Medical Services (EMS). The idea is that trauma victims have the best survival chance if they are in surgery within one hour after the accident. Qualified medical personnel are really the people who should be handling everything, but until they arrive there are things that we, untrained motorcyclists, can do to help the medical professionals before they arrive.

Jsn

27th August 2006, 15:50

Anyways the guy who came off is fine.. broken wrist and some scraping through the jeans.. will be in a cast for 2-3 months :( lol saw the xray and his wrist was like this _;- (yucky). was a vfr400 btw.

Leong

27th August 2006, 19:00

(I'm sure this is a repost but it goes back a while so I'm sure we'll all benefit from a repeat session.)

May be a repost, but there are MANY new people here, and I for one have not seen it before, so yes thanks for posting.

And I'm glad the guy in the OP is relatively OK!