F3 Rules, what ya all reckon?

[Shaun]

This is a copy of my email to Vicki @ mnz regarding the new proposed rule changes for the F3 class

Hi Vicki

I am writing to you concerning the proposed rule changes for the F3 class.

My input is relevant to the 650 twin only.

1) Engine specs. I believe the proposed rule of std motor to be very good, but will create a protest scenario, as people do cheat!

2) Front forks

I believe that this rule should be changed to read

Front forks

Can be replaced with any forks and tripple clamps- THE REASON

With the Sv650 Suzuki, the forks offer NO ability to change any settings on them, this in theory makes the bike a potentially bad/dangerous bike to ride!

Other twin Brands, now come out with upside down forks that are fully adjustable, making racing a lot safer.

THE BENEFIT TO THIS RULE

F3, has long been considered the learning class of NZ racing, a major part of training in racing, is learning how to adjust your suspension, with the new proposed rule change, there will be nothing that a rider/s can learn about machine set up, this is one of the most important things a rider needs to learn to go forward as a rider.

Exhaust

The proposed rule change allows for the muffler only to be changed on an Sv 650 bike.

Unfortunately the SV does not have a bolt on muffler! so if this rule was to go ahead, it would mean people would have to chop there original muffler off, have a bracket welded on to the original exhaust system, and then have to buy an aftermarket muffler, Approx $500 just spent, apart from the fact that the original system is now no good because the muffler had to be chopped off. Replacement cost? over $1000.

ECU Blackbox IGN

It reads that this can be changed! But no mention of the use of power commanders for fuel mixture?

If the exhaust is allowed to be changed, it would be in the best interests of the competitor/s for safety and cost reasons to allow the use of a power commander on these bikes, the fuel mixture is set on these bikes to work with the std exhaust system, so with No powercommander, these bikes will not be performing as they are supposed to, which could lead to engine failures, as well as injuries!



Having said all that, F3 is a formula class, the last formula class in New Zealand's racing, it is the cheapest class to start in?

If we start to make the rules so defined, could this not stop a lot of people from getting started in the first place, take a good look at the club scene, there are heaps of bikes in the F3 field at the moment that would need to be sold by the end of next season to cater for the proposed rule changes, and who is going to buy these bikes? No one, as there is no where to race them, and how do all those riders with those modified bikes buy another without any buyers for there bikes?

So Potentially, I see that with these proposed rule changes, we may be digging a bigger hole.

Thankyou to Paul and MNZ for doing the work you do for our sport.






With Regards
Shaun Harris
Moto-Dynamix
PO BOX 8252
New Plymouth
M/B 027-2559143

[cowpoos]

good points shaun......ummm......has change my way of thinking....
The only butt I have is how much ahead the SV's are compared to the traditional F3 bikes...the 400's etc....take a exceptional rider with alot of $$$ spent on the machine to match a sv....and then it won't be as easy to ride....
and as for cost....what would a compeditive SV 650 cost to build ready for racing in F3? how does it compare to F2?

[Shaun]

good points shaun......ummm......has change my way of thinking....
The only butt I have is how much ahead the SV's are compared to the traditional F3 bikes...the 400's etc..

The 400's are a thing of the past anyways now, the twins are taking over


..take a exceptional rider with alot of $$$ spent on the machine to match a sv....and then it won't be as easy to ride....

A very good 400 bored out with all the fruit would still be more than competitive with an SV with a std motor

and as for cost....what would a compeditive SV 650 cost to build ready for racing in F3?

4-4.5K on top off bike purchase will get you

K4/K5 GSXR complete front end
Ohlins rear shock
Footrest kits
Fairings
Race pipe
power commander


how does it compare to F2?

F2 is for the club scene only, there is no F2 class in the NZ champs any more

[cowpoos]

F2 is for the club scene only, there is no F2 class in the NZ champs any more
sorry ment sports production class.....and yeah I suppose thats not bad for a compeditive bike....

[mikey]

hey poo hate
can i bring my dog over to your place an set him onto some rabbits / hares / triangle head looking staffies
i feel bad setting him onto the nieghrbourhood cats an i got told off yesterday letting him loose in rimutaka park casue apparently dobermans eat cute little kiwis


editttt
wooooooooooops wrong threadanywho
basically your saying that even though f3 is a entry level class, f3 should be about whose prepared/got the most dollars to spend on a sv650 shaun?
i guess thats what racing is about for the majority really,but like you said ITS A ENTREE LEVEL CLASS.
if youve got more money then skill you should be in clubmans, not beating someone in f3 casue your on a machine thats 10+ years newer with another 20HP....
just the lowly opinion of a slow track rider who is currently in clubmans on a championship winning bike....

[cowpoos]

hey poo hate
can i bring my dog over to your place an set him onto some rabbits / hares / triangle head looking staffies
i feel bad setting him onto the nieghrbourhood cats an i got told off yesterday letting him loose in rimutaka park casue apparently dobermans dont like cute little kiwis
errr....no....I don't like your girlfriend

[Shaun]

hey poo hate
can i bring my dog over to your place an set him onto some rabbits / hares / triangle head looking staffies
i feel bad setting him onto the nieghrbourhood cats an i got told off yesterday letting him loose in rimutaka park casue apparently dobermans eat cute little kiwis


editttt
wooooooooooops wrong threadanywho
basically your saying that even though f3 is a entry level class, f3 should be about whose prepared/got the most dollars to spend on a sv650 shaun?
i guess thats what racing is about for the majority really,but like you said ITS A ENTREE LEVEL CLASS.
if youve got more money then skill you should be in clubmans, not beating someone in f3 casue your on a machine thats 10+ years newer with another 20HP....
just the lowly opinion of a slow track rider who is currently in clubmans on a championship winning bike....

Mikey, stay off the drugs mate, and have someone else read engrish for you LOL

No, Re Read what I said Mikey, my opinion was based on rider safety and rider training, and the reason behind the F3 class in the first place

[sAsLEX]

F2 is for the club scene only, there is no F2 class in the NZ champs any more

So how much on top of the say 17k for a new 600 to get competitive in 600 SS?

[Shaun]

So how much on top of the say 17k for a new 600 to get competitive in 600 SS?

Fork KIt $ 2000 approx
Shock $ 1800 approx
Damper $ 500 approx
fairings $ 900 approx
Braided lines $ 100 approx
ECU $ 1800 approx
Pipe $ 1800 approx
Footrests $ 500 approx

+ + + +Kiss 10K goodbye

And after that, the bike is still not competitive in Australia'n ss600 racing

[mikey]

No, Re Read what I said Mikey, my opinion was based on rider safety and rider training, and the reason behind the F3 class in the first place
nah sorry i only skim read stuff on here. an find that typing quick wit hproper diction is slow, an time is money, or not really. anyway

1) Engine specs. I believe the proposed rule of std motor to be very good, but will create a protest scenario, as people do cheat! not hundred percent sure whether your for or against this rule????


2) Front forks
I believe that this rule should be changed to read
Front forks
Can be replaced with any forks and tripple clamps- THE REASON
With the Sv650 Suzuki, the forks offer NO ability to change any settings on them, this in theory makes the bike a potentially bad/dangerous bike to ride!
Other twin Brands, now come out with upside down forks that are fully adjustable, making racing a lot safer.
THE BENEFIT TO THIS RULE
F3, has long been considered the learning class of NZ racing, a major part of training in racing, is learning how to adjust your suspension, with the new proposed rule change, there will be nothing that a rider/s can learn about machine set up, this is one of the most important things a rider needs to learn to go forward as a rider.
old 400s dont have a lot of adjustment on them either, and 10+yr newer forks should out handle or the designers should be shot. (specualtion here, stnad to be corrected) so there isnt really much of an advantage for the older bikes in the the learning to adjust your suspension type thing. and who adjusts there own suspension anyway?

Exhaust
The proposed rule change allows for the muffler only to be changed on an Sv 650 bike.
Unfortunately the SV does not have a bolt on muffler! so if this rule was to go ahead, it would mean people would have to chop there original muffler off, have a bracket welded on to the original exhaust system, and then have to buy an aftermarket muffler, Approx $500 just spent, apart from the fact that the original system is now no good because the muffler had to be chopped off. Replacement cost? over $1000.
ECU Blackbox IGN
It reads that this can be changed! But no mention of the use of power commanders for fuel mixture?
If the exhaust is allowed to be changed, it would be in the best interests of the competitor/s for safety and cost reasons to allow the use of a power commander on these bikes, the fuel mixture is set on these bikes to work with the std exhaust system, so with No powercommander, these bikes will not be performing as they are supposed to, which could lead to engine failures, as well as injuries!
if the stock pipe is on then you wont need a power commander!!!
and when resellign the bike why do you need to go back to a stock muffler and lose a thousand? trying to hide the fact the bike wasnt raced or what? leave the exhaust on. adds value.
sv650's have a big enough advantage already.... do the Rich affluent bourgeoisie need performance exhausts? performance exhaust equal need of more money tuning/power commadner etc, not something lowly bottom dwelling zxr/cbr/rgv owning proliterait can afford
slightly a bit more out of my depth on this one


Having said all that, F3 is a formula class, the last formula class in New Zealand's racing, it is the cheapest class to start in?
not sure if you actually think its cheap to get into, or cheap class to win? strange way of looking at it if its the latter! and if the sv650's stay as current it will put potential new racers off who want to race, as thier 2000 dollar race bike will not keep up with the modified 650s.

If we start to make the rules so defined, could this not stop a lot of people from getting started in the first place, take a good look at the club scene, there are heaps of bikes in the F3 field at the moment that would need to be sold by the end of next season to cater for the proposed rule changes, and who is going to buy these bikes? No one, as there is no where to race them, and how do all those riders with those modified bikes buy another without any buyers for there bikes?

the only bikes that need to changed back to meet the proposed rules would be the sv650 burglars..... (in your interest) if the riders dont want to change them back they have plenty of other classes to race in. glen williams does alright on his old sv650 in f2. if they want to they can sell there bikes. sv650's are girls bikes anyway, and there a lots of girls out there without them waiting for the step up.....

So Potentially, I see that with these proposed rule changes, we may be digging a bigger hole.

i see the proposed rules that you have brought up as being GOOD FAIR JUST bla bla bla.
i have tried to present a logical view as to why this "loop hole into burgling f3" should be closed, . not sure if you stil have a sv650 in your race team, but if you do i can see why you'd be a little upset if the proposed rules came in.

i suggest a f2.5 class for 650 twins, hell, why not make it a 750 twin class cause I'm sure a few might not be running exactly 648cc.....or another name could be Fb for Formula bourgeoisie, for those with a bit more money (or someone who has access) than the average f3 400cc4stroke 250cc2stroke race bike owner.

[Shaun]

Have a nice day mate

[Two Smoker]

I definately think that engine modifications should be restricted on the SV's... But i dont see why the suspension should be restricted... Pretty much agree with you there Shaun...

I think these rules are trying to increase the numbers at National level... At Club level, F3 is awesome with huge number and close racing no matter what bike you are running... I think its trying to restrict Terry, Andy, Jason and (previously) Derek who are awesome guys and excellent riders, but spend a fuckload of money on their bikes...

But in saying that, i could get into the top 8 with my $2000 bike that i spent about $300 fixing...

[sAsLEX]

Fork KIt $ 2000 approx
Shock $ 1800 approx
Damper $ 500 approx
fairings $ 900 approx
Braided lines $ 100 approx
ECU $ 1800 approx
Pipe $ 1800 approx
Footrests $ 500 approx

+ + + +Kiss 10K goodbye

And after that, the bike is still not competitive in Australia'n ss600 racing

Ouch a bit more than what I suspected for a production based class.

[Hillbilly]

The only other 650 V-tiwns both share basically the same engine as the SV-650. Namely the Cagiva Raptor 650, which is a lotta $$$$, and the Hyosung GT650R, which is a non-contender because of it's 195kg. That twin spar teel frame weighs a ton compared to the aluminium frame of the SV.

A viable alternative which may need little work for a reasonable price could be the Honda RVF400.

BTW, here in Aussie, Suzuki are selling the SV-650 to racers for around $7,200 AUD! Must have a valid competittion licecnce and prove that's for the track.

[TonyB]

1) Engine specs. I believe the proposed rule of std motor to be very good, but will create a protest scenario, as people do cheat!
Won't it be fairly obvious (and easier to police) if someone cheats? If you've got two or three SV's in a race and one of them has clearly got a HP advantage then it's highly likely that they've been modifying the engine. If however engine mods are allowed and one bike is faster, then its harder to prove they're cheating- maybe they just did a better job.

[cowpoos]

Won't it be fairly obvious (and easier to police) if someone cheats? If you've got two or three SV's in a race and one of them has clearly got a HP advantage then it's highly likely that they've been modifying the engine. If however engine mods are allowed and one bike is faster, then its harder to prove they're cheating- maybe they just did a better job.
a fast rider can easily make a slow bike look fast.....no doubt I get the jist of what your saying....but it ain't that easy to police

[MVnut]

The Cagiva has USD forks, not sure how much adjustment, about 1500 bucks more than the SV650S, be good to see some racing, cool bikes.

[texmo]

Most people cant afford to race to the few that can these rule changes will make no diffrence.

[GSVR]

One very good way to keep things even is to make sure bikes aren't putting out more power or weight less than they should.

Weighing the bikes is easy but to measure the power output would require a dyno that could be taken to national points races. There was one floating around a few years back.

When someone is suspect their bike could be measured at the end of the race and if its making more HP than Suzuki say its should (which no SVs do anyway) or weighs less than the set dry limit then its bye bye result. Easy.

Or set a HP per KG limit for all bikes.

[Cleve]

Why all this hostility towards SV's? I don't get it? Why all this "we have to protect 20 year old 400 4's from 5 year old 650 twins?"...
Next year Suzuki/Kawasaki might remake the GSXR400/ZXR400 into an SV beater... Back before the SV who was whining that 400 4's need to be confined to standard trim?
F3 should have bikes that go and handle well and changing the rules to stop SV's from having decent brakes and handling is just dumb. It is a racing class for gods sake! Race bikes in a formula class should handle well. If they want to help ancient 400's stay with newer 650's then at least allow the SV's to have decent brakes and handling (and we all like nice noises from race bikes so also let them change the pipe too)!

[spudchucka]

If the SV650's end up redundant for road racing you could always do this to them......


then slap on some 17's and go supermotarding.

[Shaun]

It would be really nice if people that have nothing serious to offer in this thread stay out of it

[Hillbilly]

Don't forget the Kawasaki ER-6F, which is a 650 parallel twin. I wonder what the maximum HP can be gotten out of a 650 v-twin - 90 HP? I mean, 70 hp is pretty lame. The GS500 puts out 52hp. A Susiki GSX250F Across puts out 45hp. The Cagiva Mito 525 SP puts out 38 hp, and it's a 125. The Honda NSR 150 puts out 40 hp.

American Legend Motorsports have a Hyosung bored out to 750, and it puts out 155 bhp. Mind you, it's got a titanium valves etc.

[texmo]

It would be really nice if people that have nothing serious to offer in this thread stay out of it

Just one question, what do they hope to acheive by creating these limits we have to reply to?

[kickingzebra]

I seriously think it is cheaper to just get a few year old 600 and go the clubmans to f2 way, then if you pick up the pace a bit, onto newer machinery. I mean, you can get old 600 race bikes, with all the parts for sub 10k
For me I would never even consider f3ing an SV or similiar. Solely for the dollars aspect.

Was the original brief for f3 to provide an easy entry point to racing?

I suspect scoring bikes for a power to weight ratio, and adjusting placings at the end would be the easiest way to make as close to a fair system as possible. A race win is a race win however, and if you get it, (and haven't cheated) you deserve it!
Maybe leave the placings as are, but add a secondary scoring table, for power to weight adjusted figures which counts to end of season points...

I didn't realise SVs had a solid exhaust system through... If that is the case replacing cans only is madness.

Racing is a sport for people who can afford it anyway, and if I had the nouse to do some amzing thing to my bike to make it handle, and go better, I would want that to be recognised in the placings.

Its a hard call for MNZ, thats for sure!

[svs]

Just catching up with all this. But after reading it through, it would appear that my bike would still be legal (almost).

My problem is the exhaust - it's got a full system on. As shaun rightly pointed out the original is one piece and the system I got came on my road bike - I don't have a standard system to revert to :(

As for retaining the original front end. I've got the racetech springs and emulators and whilst it isn't easily adjustable, it's good enough for now and I have yet to be convinced that spending a couple of grand on a new front end would improve things all that much. However picking up crash damaged SV's with frontal damage is how a number of race bikes are born....

Also, how's this for a contadiction.

650cc twin Modifications allowed are
...
Air filter replaced or removed.

but


...must retain the standard OME air box, air filter element and carburetor..

And what about using parts off newer models? e.g. cams off 03 on model have better profile than 99-02 models. Can an older bike be updated?

I know these are just proposed changes, but they need a bit more thought. After all this is the only remaining formula class in NZ. What about those of us who like to tinker (not necessarily spend money) to try and make the bike better.

[motobob]

What about those of us who like to tinker (not necessarily spend money) to try and make the bike better.

If you want to tinker its simple Phil you go to F1.

Seriously thought I agree with Shauns points. The class is a place where people can learn racecraft and work on the bike changing things. For F3 to be a class that allows a wide spectrum of machinery of various vintage to compete the rules need to be carefully considered. The SV is a popular motorcycle in club racing in near standard trim and a few of us have invested in GSXR front ends simply to future proof the bike. After all the 400 fours have had a 20 year run.

All eliglible motorcycles in F3 should be allowed to change out old style forks for USD. This at least allows all machines to have similar corner speeds which would otherwise create frustration leading to accidents. I'm sure this is why 125's are no longer in F3. Any F3 rider will sure give his opinion on mixing Motards with F3 on their different cornering speeds.

I'll leave it at suspension for now.

[Brian d marge]

Just a quickie before I toddle off to bed,

While I cant speak for Road racing in NZ , I can Talk about MX ,

You go to the shop ,plonk down 5 to 10 k ( or even less, 2 k for a 01 model ~)

This has, fully ajustable suspension, high speed low speed , 2 or three stage shim stack , and now twin chambers

you buy 200 bucks worth of safety gear, and you could possibly run and beat the beast in NZ ,

The enterance fees arnt very much ( niethers the prize money !!) but with a comitment , you could be no 2 in the world champs ...coppins???...king??

The grids tend to fill , and it has a knock on effect ( which telly hasnt yet cottoned on to yet !)

So you have a cheap bike , thats teaching you set up , race craft , abd all the other stuff , and I bet those people who race overseas , have had to adjust big style to meet the professional level ( just a guess that one )

So what we want is a race series that is cheap to enter , sets the rider up in terms of knowledge and has full grids

The only thing I can see of doing this is the Auzzie timed grids ( you ar e placed in a race because of your lap time , not the bike, if you want to go faster you have to learn how to , either by bike set up , throwing money , or bravado

My personal opinion , I would like to see a return of GP style 125 /250 which tries to mirror the top level in the way its run So that emergin riders are used to the corporate ways of team management

anyway that my thoughts

Back to F3 , my personal barriers to entering that clas would be , Motards running there , and the Sv650

Though IF a riders of Merit such as shuan could get an a SV and post near identical times on both a 400 and a Sv then i think they should stay, As it would really rule out the bike and come down to rider skill.

But IF the SV are constanly 2 or 3 seconds ahead of the rest of the field ,,no its unfair , and the mads should go in place ..

Just a thought Stephen

[spudchucka]

It would be really nice if people that have nothing serious to offer in this thread stay out of it

Thats hardly the kiwibiker attitude we are used to. Piss-taking is a way of life around these parts.

[Shaun]

Understand your point but, this is quite a serious issue, and for once it would be good to see if people can stay out of shit that does not concern them and try to stay on topic, Is that possible here on KB"er

[ben444]

I like the propsed rules... but I could be a bit biased(says the guy who spent squilions on suspension, now it handles like a GP machine) . 400's are getting old but there's a heap of them out there. If a 400 could have a handling advantage and SV's have a horsepower advantage then I say that's fair, just like the 250's vs 600's in the F2. There's good racing there. I say don't complain about the other guys bike. No-one's forcing you to ride the bike you're on.

[texmo]

Understand your point but, this is quite a serious issue, and for once it would be good to see if people can stay out of shit that does not concern them and try to stay on topic, Is that possible here on KB"er

What do you think the SB forum is for? So how will these rules make it easyer to race?

[FROSTY]

Before people toss viterol at me keep in mind Ive literally put EVERY spare penny and then some into building my SV --so Im NOT feathering my own nest in any way.
AS per usual MNZ have OVER FUCKING COMPLICATED IT.
In the uk theres a series Running very well and has for a few years.
Its so frigging easy.
Start of season --you wanna enter 650 twins--rock up get ya bike dynod -Its gotta make 75hp or less
Its SEALED for the season except for oil and filter
If ya have to do major work that brakes the seals then it needs to be redynod -
Basicly what this does is lets someone buy a bike -run it in then go out and race it off the showroom floor. By the same account it lets someone like SVS or gary H carry on with their bikes -provided they were under 75 hp (My bike wouldn't be eligable)
Suspension wise --I say back shock--open slather -provided it is shock only not swingarm etc
Front end --well Shaun ya gonna hate me here (again keep in mind Ive poured moonbeams into getting mine sorted with the usd setup)
My opinion is it shoud be stock externals.
Again why reinvent the wheel --Guys in the USA and UK are racing using normal forks -Why add potentially $3000 to the price of a bike build?
In a nutshell-
do what ya frigging like to the motor/exhaust --pour the national debt into it if ya want--but if it dynos up over 75hp your out before ya start.
bodywork--aftermarket glass -to save costs come crash time
rear shock---any replacement shock unit provided no mods to anything else are needed
Front end--stock looking --thats a big expense saved

[Shaun]

Texmo, Sometimes I get a little too excited:gob:

As a huge proportion of the countries F3 riders either are on here, or cruise through here, I was very curious to see what they have to say.

My rule suggestion thingy, was just that, I thought by writing another alternative/ proposed set of rules, it would help get write down to what people really do want, and what is going to work!

I obviously have an interest in how this all turns out apart from the passion of our sport, but really do not give a Rats arse about that, as there is always another Fish for the pan, apart from the fact that Club racing scene has more relaxed rules than the champs, so current converted SV's for example will still have a place to play anyway, the only people this really effects is those wishing to race the NZ champs really, as the club people cater for a lot more riders, look at the Vic scene for example, brilliant.

There is one man on this site ( It has been suggested to him) who could co-ordinate getting in touch with all F3 MNZ Licence holders, and have them put in writing what they want, and come up with the best compromise based on numbers, I bet all his exspenses for doing this would be met as well!

We'll see what happens

[MikeyG]

Get rid of F3 and have stock GN racing instead.

It will be hard changing any rules on an established class such as this, whatever happens some people will be put out.

How about like the post classics with a F3 jnr for the 400's and a F3 snr for the 650's.

[FROSTY]

milkey--Ill tell ya why--Now Frosty and mark wiggley this year were on 650 twins. For various reasons putting out the same HP (fuckitt). Keeping us more than just honest were Kawa kid and stu dawe both on 400's--we were at the very front of the feild
As long as theres a Hp cap then the 400's can play untill they become extinct which Im sorry will happen unless the japs get back into decent HP 400's again.

[FROSTY]

Just one question, what do they hope to acheive by creating these limits we have to reply to?
By limiting the available mods it limits the money you NEED to spend to compete.
FFS --dont you guys gettit. --limit the mods/limit the Hp--- Increase the machinerery that can compete. Nett result 400's still can play with the 650's

[ajturbo]

a fast rider can easily make a slow bike look fast.....no doubt I get the jist of what your saying....but it ain't that easy to police

this IS a good point.
on sunday RG100 lent luke (mud Boy) his 150(?) bucket and used luke's Rg50, luke was giving it heaps and having a lot of fun....... but glen was almost on luke's tail the whole time...
this is not saying that luke's Rg50 is fully worked, as glen's 150 can keep up with my bike ... (just) but how great a rider(rg100) the bugger is!!!

[ajturbo]

Before people toss viterol at me keep in mind Ive literally put EVERY spare penny and then some into building my SV --so Im NOT feathering my own nest in any way.
AS per usual MNZ have OVER FUCKING COMPLICATED IT.
In the uk theres a series Running very well and has for a few years.
Its so frigging easy.
Start of season --you wanna enter 650 twins--rock up get ya bike dynod -Its gotta make 75hp or less
Its SEALED for the season except for oil and filter
If ya have to do major work that brakes the seals then it needs to be redynod -
Basicly what this does is lets someone buy a bike -run it in then go out and race it off the showroom floor. By the same account it lets someone like SVS or gary H carry on with their bikes -provided they were under 75 hp (My bike wouldn't be eligable)
Suspension wise --I say back shock--open slather -provided it is shock only not swingarm etc
Front end --well Shaun ya gonna hate me here (again keep in mind Ive poured moonbeams into getting mine sorted with the usd setup)
My opinion is it shoud be stock externals.
Again why reinvent the wheel --Guys in the USA and UK are racing using normal forks -Why add potentially $3000 to the price of a bike build?
In a nutshell-
do what ya frigging like to the motor/exhaust --pour the national debt into it if ya want--but if it dynos up over 75hp your out before ya start.
bodywork--aftermarket glass -to save costs come crash time
rear shock---any replacement shock unit provided no mods to anything else are needed
Front end--stock looking --thats a big expense saved
frosty,... you make things sound toooooo easy

[Shaun]

As above, how simple can it be.

[FROSTY]

Guys it CAN BE that simple
Heres a lil shift in thinking -a tiny one mind you.
Why not Just put a HP cap on F3 . Make it apply for 3 seasons so a bike built one year isnt gonna be defunct next year.
75 HP -BANG -not one HP more
Doesn't matter if its a 450cc 4, a 750cc air cooled 2 valve twin,a 250 two stroke or a 650 twin.--The HP limit applies. BANG
At national level-again engine sealed after dyno run
At club level--where being honest we are competing all season for a $10 tin cup -Either you have a sealed motor or you're happy to be protested for over HP -if you have over HP ALL championship points automaticly removed and bike disqualified from furthur meetings till it complies HP wise
75 is gonna mean 400s are still gonna be able to give the 650's a hard time

[Two Smoker]

Guys it CAN BE that simple
Heres a lil shift in thinking -a tiny one mind you.
Why not Just put a HP cap on F3 . Make it apply for 3 seasons so a bike built one year isnt gonna be defunct next year.
75 HP -BANG -not one HP more
Doesn't matter if its a 450cc 4, a 750cc air cooled 2 valve twin,a 250 two stroke or a 650 twin.--The HP limit applies. BANG
At national level-again engine sealed after dyno run
At club level--where being honest we are competing all season for a $10 tin cup -Either you have a sealed motor or you're happy to be protested for over HP -if you have over HP ALL championship points automaticly removed and bike disqualified from furthur meetings till it complies HP wise
75 is gonna mean 400s are still gonna be able to give the 650's a hard time


Now that is an awesome idea!!!

[Delboy]

The HP thing isnt the greatest idea. Its not hard to flatten the HP off with a few jetting tweaks or altering advance etc before the Dyno run and then later on re jetting or adjusting advance etc. Engine still sealed and those 5 or whatever hp gained back again.

These rules do make sence with a few minor tweaks.

Ironic thing is a few years ago when the SV was introduced MNZ got hold of the leading f3 riders at national level as well as a few other people to get there thoughts on how the rules should be set up. These proposed rules that are coming about now are almost identical to what the majority of us thought would be the way to go. Unfortunatly we were asked but not listened too. How unusual :gob:

[gpercivl]

No matter what rules you apply it will still come down to rider ability and how much money you have to spend so why bother changing the rules we have now and are living with.

Take the Tigcraft as an example and Steve Bridges Vee Twin a few years back, both could be argued as being ineligible for the F3 class based on the rules that frame and engines are supposed to be originally from production bikes. Steve built his frame and the Tigcraft I think is a Honda RS125 chassis. You could even argue that MX based engines are ineligible as even the manufacturers claim they're not standard production motors and won't warrant them as such (I know that's stretching it a bit).

If the proposal went thru and I wanted to go race F3 again I'd ring up my mate in USA borrow a whole lot of money from the bank and buy the Fischer with all the extras please...based on a Hyosung motor with hand built frame, ohlins suspension, light weight wheels, top of the line brakes etc. all stock standard from the original manufacturer plus performance upgrades to the motor.

Even the 75 hp rule could be abused if you had lots of money you could design a motor to have almost the full 75hp from 3000 revs onwards...wouldn't that grunt out of corners well on NZ's short tracks!

So, just to repeat myself and probably be a bit too cynical....why bother changing the rules again when we all pretty much know what we gotta do now, plus there's a whole bunch of modified bikes out there which could be ruled out (including one of mine that Logan's supposed to be riding).

Cheers, Greg

[Shaun]

Greg, I have no idea why the rules are being looked at, apart from the fact
that the F3 rules have been a very long on going toppic.

As far as I am concerned the class is working well, there is alqys going to be some one who complains that so and so's bike is better, but that is a fact of life.

If things get to serious RE the F3 rules, this will add another cost facture due to protests etc, apart from the hassle facture

[diesel pig]

gpercivl, The only machines in MNZ's F3 regs as set out in Appendix B of the MNZ manual that must use there standard production frames are the Two-stroke multi-cylinder 250cc bikes. The rules do not restrict the what frames can be used in the other capacity Groups in the F3 regulations, So the examples you used in your post are within the rules.

[gpercivl]

gpercivl, The only machines in MNZ's F3 regs as set out in Appendix B of the MNZ manual that must use there standard production frames are the Two-stroke multi-cylinder 250cc bikes. The rules do not restrict the what frames can be used in the other capacity Groups in the F3 regulations, So the examples you used in your post are within the rules.

Thanks diesel pig, yep, you're correct on re-reading it only applies to the 250 2 strokes.

Hmmm, now I can go put my 450 motor into a GP-250 frame and suspension and it will be good for at least one year but definitely not in the spirit of F3 in the first chapter of Appendix B "primarily for Production Based machines".

Of course I'll get KK to ride it as he's already as quick as me on my R6 :yes:

Should be fun a new use for those 250 GP bikes that no ones riding these days, cheers, Greg

[FROSTY]

The HP thing isnt the greatest idea. Its not hard to flatten the HP off with a few jetting tweaks or altering advance etc before the Dyno run and then later on re jetting or adjusting advance etc. Engine still sealed and those 5 or whatever hp gained back again.

These rules do make sence with a few minor tweaks.

Ironic thing is a few years ago when the SV was introduced MNZ got hold of the leading f3 riders at national level as well as a few other people to get there thoughts on how the rules should be set up. These proposed rules that are coming about now are almost identical to what the majority of us thought would be the way to go. Unfortunatly we were asked but not listened too. How unusual :gob:
yep you could do that easy as--I agree--Then I protest you-your bike is impounded and you loose all series points

[Delboy]

So what?, ya protest everyone that beat you because they were faster than you. lol. One way to win i suppose. Surely it dosnt mean they have more hp, they may well be a better rider than you Frosty.

Then comes the issue of having the same Dyno at every meeting in case of Protests. We all know Dynos differ in readouts and say you bike makes 72 HP at Joes Dyno in Auckland then you get protested and get put on Bens Dyno at Invergiggill and it suggests you have 78 HP. No fair. I know of 3 Dynos in Wellington that differ enough to make a difference.

[Hillbilly]

What about setting a the maximum engine output of 80HP at the crankshaft? same rules apply but will allow for the possibility of variances with the Dynos.
If a 125GP single cylinder bike can put out 48hp, what would a 250 twin be capable of producing?

[Toast]

Nice points Shaun…some of which I already agreed with, and some of which were news to me and make a lot of sense (like the SV650 exhaust thing).

Question: Has anyone ever tried to get a one-make series going in NZ? Possibly a chance to get cheaper bikes if a deal is struck with the NZ importer, making it more accessible financially, and then everyone will be on a level playing field…or at least not too skewed by $$$’s.

They have R6 cup etc. overseas, so why not have an SV650 Cup (being the cheapest sports bike I can think of) over here?

[gpercivl]

Yep, Tim Gibbes tried to do that with SV-650's when they first came out. Brian Bernard prepped 8 of them and you could hire them for the race day so all were kept in the same condition/state of tune...so these things have been tried before

[Toast]

That sounds cool, being able to hire a race bike...obviously with no insurance it's a bit of a risk to them...

Maybe it would be easier now with a few more and cheaper SV's on the market?

[Hillbilly]

You can hire Truimph Daytona 600's Supersports racers fully set up at Eastern Creek from the Superbike School. Price per day? Around $200 AUD. The catch - $3,400 bond and charges for excessive tyre wear.

[Chops]

I reckon:
250 2 strokes-as they are, but any fairings allowed.
450's back to 400.
650's restricted motor wise, no restrictions chassis wise- stock SV suspension is a bag of crap.

Try to make the class cheaper to enter into. The 400's and 250's might be old but there is a lot of them mouldering in peoples sheds because their pride and joy isn't competitive anymore against the hot tuned 650's.

Make the older ones competitive again, means young 'uns can afford bikes that are decently competitive.

And can afford the ongoing maintenance.

Just my thoughts

[Cleve]

I reckon:
250 2 strokes-as they are, but any fairings allowed.
450's back to 400.
650's restricted motor wise, no restrictions chassis wise- stock SV suspension is a bag of crap.

Try to make the class cheaper to enter into. The 400's and 250's might be old but there is a lot of them mouldering in peoples sheds because their pride and joy isn't competitive anymore against the hot tuned 650's.

Make the older ones competitive again, means young 'uns can afford bikes that are decently competitive.

And can afford the ongoing maintenance.

Just my thoughts

Agree with that.

[FROSTY]

I love this--its wonderfull---Lets just leave it open slather.
Heck I can spend another 7k on my engine and get 90 plus reliable HP out of it. Ill do the ohlins front end and have a bike that handles like a GP bike.
Sure my Bikes gonna cost 15ooo -but Itll be so much faster than some little 400 or 450.
Unfair advantage--HOW??? ---You guys with the 400's and the stroker 250's just step up to the mark and get my kinda power?
But of course a HP cap is such a stupid idea--
It would be so UGG fair --it would mean 400's and stroker 250's can stay racing and a guy on a production 650 might stand a chance of upsetting the big guns/
dont you lot get it -add a bunch of complicated extra rules --someone/s has to scrutineer and enforce the rules.

[FROSTY]

You can hire Truimph Daytona 600's Supersports racers fully set up at Eastern Creek from the Superbike School. Price per day? Around $200 AUD. The catch - $3,400 bond and charges for excessive tyre wear.
ER um mate its $350 aud plus the price of track day entry--around $500 aud a day -with a tyre contingency so if ya shag a set of tyres they can charge ya.
The trumbys are FERRRY FERRY NOICE TO RIDE MIND YOU

[ajturbo]

I love this--its wonderfull---Lets just leave it open slather.
Heck I can spend another 7k on my engine and get 90 plus reliable HP out of it. Ill do the ohlins front end and have a bike that handles like a GP bike.
Sure my Bikes gonna cost 15ooo -but Itll be so much faster than some little 400 or 450.
.


but will this help your starts????:innocent: :innocent:

[Cleve]

I love this--its wonderfull---Lets just leave it open slather.
Heck I can spend another 7k on my engine and get 90 plus reliable HP out of it. Ill do the ohlins front end and have a bike that handles like a GP bike.
Sure my Bikes gonna cost 15ooo -but Itll be so much faster than some little 400 or 450.
Unfair advantage--HOW??? ---You guys with the 400's and the stroker 250's just step up to the mark and get my kinda power?
But of course a HP cap is such a stupid idea--
It would be so UGG fair --it would mean 400's and stroker 250's can stay racing and a guy on a production 650 might stand a chance of upsetting the big guns/
dont you lot get it -add a bunch of complicated extra rules --someone/s has to scrutineer and enforce the rules.

But Frosty a HP cap also has to be scrutineered and I think people have talked about this in previous threads. As I said I agree with limited engine mods to the 650 twins (Kawasaki, Suzuki, Cagiva, Hyosung) - just pipe and ECU - easy enough to monitor??!! And then let the 650's as well as 400's and 250s spend the time and money on suspension and set up. An even and not TOO expensive race class I would imagine...

[Hillbilly]

ER um mate its $350 aud plus the price of track day entry--around $500 aud a day -with a tyre contingency so if ya shag a set of tyres they can charge ya.
The trumbys are FERRRY FERRY NOICE TO RIDE MIND YOU

I got that wrong! :doh: Here are the details and prices etc:

http://www.easterncreekridedays.com.au/content/view/26/1

http://www.easterncreekridedays.com.au/content/view/25/1

[Quasievil]

I say let the SV650 class do what they want, whats the difference, we never see them anyway after the first lap, they are gone burger!!!
650 will be the natural progression once all the 400cc crap out, these 400 bikes are getting old, it suits me fine to have some experienced 650 mechanics out there for me to buy a set up bike from, infact its great, the SV650 guys like Shaun are ironing out all the issues and setup problems for me , so when I get one, it will be basically off the shelf ........perfect!!

Next year Im getting one from Shaun for sure !!!

[slowpoke]

Why is everyone getting all bent outta shape about keeping 20 year old 400's competitive with SV's at NATIONAL level? Why not 250 two strokes? Why not 750 two valver's? Why 400's in particular?
It's like trying to keep older 750's competitive with new 1000's when they changed the superbike capacity's. It all seems almost farcical.
We all have to change with the times so if you want to stay competive in racing you stay on reasonably current machinery, as has been they way since Jesus raced the emperor Tiberius, lost, and was consequently crucified.
Remember we are talking about NATIONAL level racing. Surely at this level you should expect to see the cream of the crop both in riders and/or machinery rise to the surface.
Personally I don't see it as being appropriate to hold back newer bikes to cater for obsolete machinery.

If we accept that we shouldn't stop the march of time then we get down to the question of standard-ish bikes vs modded bikes and then we get into the murky area of what the class is all about. As per the MNZ ruling regarding arseholes they have also deemed that all racers must also have an opinion. The good and bad thing about opinions is that none of them are right or wrong.

In response (finally!)to Shaun's email (good on you for making the effort to get involved) I reckon it makes sense to allow a full aftermarket exhaust system, given the cost of replacing the OEM anchor.
While it does add to the cost, I reckon it's also a good learning tool to allow racers to fettle the suspension at both ends. It would also be pretty difficult to police modded suspension if it looks standard externally.
As Shaun says, it's also difficult to police the "no engine mods" rule. Frosty brought up the interesting idea of HP limit/engine sealing which sounds good but then you need a single dedicated dyno that all the bikes would have to be run on at similar atmospheric conditions/altitude (or tricky compensations applied).
The only way around it that I can see would be to fit inlet restrictors. It's easy to police and would at least ensure that the bikes are ballpark equal. You could even compensate for suspension mods by making bikes with gixxer front ends (or the like) have a slightly smaller restrictor, if you wanted to go that far.

[212-Motorsport]

Why cant we just put all the hot rodded f3 bikes into a class of there own and keep the basic and very standard sv 650's and 400's ete in f3

Or even Have a Standard Sv,er6n,hyosung gt650 class, Because I Beleive We have enough through out NZ to do this and keep the rules tight like:
*sealing Motors
*controlled tyres (supercorsa's ete)
*Aftermarket can only
*fork enternals only no gsxr bullshit
*standard shock and maybe the upgrade of a standard gsxr shock for sv's ete ete


If this was to happen it Beleive it would be the closest and cheapest racing at the nationals and even at club level.

Then theres the question of the the old proddy 250's and 400's You dont see very many in top 5 at nationals in f3 class so leave them be( not been sexist towards them or anything).

We can run this all in the same Race class but where just racing for different points.

[Chops]

In response:


Personally I don't see it as being appropriate to hold back newer bikes to cater for obsolete machinery.
Formula 3 is meant to be a lower cost entry class. I cannot afford a new SV, plus all the tuning to keep it competitive and going.


650 will be the natural progression once all the 400cc crap out, these 400 bikes are getting old
Yes. I agree totally. Let them die first, don't hurry it along...Euthenasia is illegal remember...
My F3 bike (Aprilia 250) is a '98, with a few good years in her yet...
My last F3 bike was a 1989 NSR 250. Its still racing...

The problem is: A new class of machinery was brought into an existing class. It already had a capacity advantage, and was not too far behind in power as stock. No restrictions were placed on tuning.

So. Restrict engine tuning. The 250's are (No GP parts, no frame mods). Why not the 650's?. They do, after all have a 400cc capacity advantage... And its cheaper to have it less tuned than more, allowing more people to afford AND race them

[Shaun]

Now this has been running a while, I am very curious how many of you people that have replied actually do race?

How many of you actually do the NZ championships?

O, and just to give some a hint, Motorsport cost a lot of money, ( Relitive to your income)

No one ever said it was going to be cheap to do motorsport.

If you want cheap go buy an RG150 and have fun, but if you really want to race, cough up the dosh, get another job, rob a bank, whatever, ( I hear, Texmo is doing all of the above)

$ do not make sport, sportsmanship and dedication and commitment make sport!

I know what it costs to go racing, I spent years paying for everything myself, so did Stroud Bernard Rees etc. I know Mick Doohan even bought a tyre for himself once:zzzz:

Lets move on to the future, the past is stale!

Not trying to tell you all as it is, just hoping maybe a reallity check is needed in this thread, lets stop bleeting on about the bloody cost, get over it, lets try to help formulate a good F3 class structure.

[slowpoke]

In response:


Formula 3 is meant to be a lower cost entry class. I cannot afford a new SV, plus all the tuning to keep it competitive and going.


Yes. I agree totally. Let them die first, don't hurry it along...Euthenasia is illegal remember...
My F3 bike (Aprilia 250) is a '98, with a few good years in her yet...
My last F3 bike was a 1989 NSR 250. Its still racing...

The problem is: A new class of machinery was brought into an existing class. It already had a capacity advantage, and was not too far behind in power as stock. No restrictions were placed on tuning.

So. Restrict engine tuning. The 250's are (No GP parts, no frame mods). Why not the 650's?. They do, after all have a 400cc capacity advantage... And its cheaper to have it less tuned than more, allowing more people to afford AND race them

How do you actually enforce a "standard engines" rule on a four stroke?
At some point someone is going ask you to PROVE that it is standard, meaning an expensive and time consuming tear down. Or dyno the thing, but then you've got the hassles of transporting the bike or dyno all over the country and allowing for varying atmospheric conditions and/or altitudes: a bike is gonna make more horsepower on a cold wet day at Ruapuna compared to a hot dry day at Taupo.
I'm guessing two strokes would be far easier/cheaper to control: whip off cylinder head and it's all there, whereas its much more difficult to remove the head of a four stroke to check cams, porting, headwork etc.
I'm not saying standard engines wouldn't be good, I'm just saying it's more difficult to enforce

I don't mean to sound uncaring (I'm struggling to afford my "habit" too) but I'm just at a loss as to why the old bikes are being protected in this class but not others. I'm trundling around on an OLD R1 in Clubmans and admittedly I am the limiting factor not the bike, but I don't see any rules coming in to allow my old bike to remain competive with newer machinery. To further confuse the issue I know of racers who DELIBERATELY go and buy a pre '89 400 just so they can race in two classes, which is hardly a good justification if they are crying about staying competitive.

I'm kinda with Shaun on this one in that MOTORSPORT COSTS MONEY. Whether we like it or not there is a price of admission when it comes being competitive. Those of us on severely restricted budgets (I'm one of them) shouldn't really expect to rock up on a 10 or twenty year old bike and be up with the front runners. There are cheap classes (pre '89, Clubmans, buckets) available so it's up to us to do the sums and figure the appropriate class.

Machinery HAS to move with the times, it's just the nature of the sport we are in. It's a shame for people with a beautiful little thoroughbred like the Aprilia RS250. It is as close to a GP bike as you can get yet there are increasingly limited classes you can race competitively. Unfortunately it is the same the world over as environmental concerns make two strokes less viable, soon the GP classes will all be 250/450/800cc fourstrokes and we'll miss those lil' screamers.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Formula 3 is meant to be a lower cost entry class. I cannot afford a new SV, plus all the tuning to keep it competitive and going.

Unfortunately if F3 is kept well behind the F2 class, what is the stepping stone? 125s? 250s? 250s already race F3 bikes anyway. If the distance between classes is too great how do you progress?? Maybe classics or Pre-89s or post classics are the cheaper, entry level classes (updated occasionally for year of course, with the older bikes going into earlier classes) and F3 is a stepping stone, closer to F2?

Makes sense to me, but then I don't race. Still, with the 400 market dead except for licence and tax benefits in japan, what is the point in a current, competitive race class that is limited to a style of bike no longer in production in any numbers??

[Chops]

Unfortunately it is the same the world over as environmental concerns make two strokes less viable, soon the GP classes will all be 250/450/800cc fourstrokes and we'll miss those lil' screamers

AAAaaaaaauuuuugggg. Nooooo!!Viva la Ring Ding!!!

[Hillbilly]

I think the most sensible suggestion so far is the rule limiting the maximum power to 75hp, or 55.92Kw ( + or - 1% variance). Most of the FIM Superstock Rules should apply as well, if they don't already.

The 650 V-twins class in the US is known as "Superstock Lite". Do the Japanese still make 400's for the domestic Asian markets? If so, bikes like the RVF 400 may be around for a while yet. From what I can gather, Aprilia has ceased production of the RS 250. Don't know how many other manufacturers will follow suit. If the 250 cc 2-stroke road bikes are no longer being produced, they won't be long for the circuit either.

[SlowHand]

The blanket horse power rule still requires more thought tho. What if I spent mega moolah to get 75hp all through the rev range with clever ECU tuning?

[cowpoos]

The blanket horse power rule still requires more thought tho. What if I spent mega moolah to get 75hp all through the rev range with clever ECU tuning?
you nor anyone can fight and manipulate physics that way.....don't care how flash your ECU is!

[SlowHand]

How about electric motor? Or a turbo/supercharged one with ignition retarted etc etc

[Hillbilly]

The blanket horse power rule still requires more thought tho. What if I spent mega moolah to get 75hp all through the rev range with clever ECU tuning?


I guess you get to win. It think the FIM rules cover that sort of thing - here they are:

[FROSTY]

I think shaun has hit the nail on the head--How many of you guys are actually racing nationals in F3 ?

[Kickaha]

I think shaun has hit the nail on the head--How many of you guys are actually racing nationals in F3 ?


Just because they dont race F3 in the Nationals doesn't make there opinion any less valid, I didn't see you at all the rounds :bleh: and I don't think Shaun races F3 either

I think a HP cap is worthless unless other stuff like suspension, brakes, tyres are also controlled

[Blackflagged]

Regarding comments from non racers.The rules may get a few more racing!Thats there intention(i believe)And maybe The post classic Pre 89 could ad f3,as they basically have f1 and f2 now.There a lot of bike that could race pre 89,f3,and be very compeditive.And let the rest move on.
Ps- heard some talk of a class for modified twin 650`s,and gp250`s,keep those who have modified there sv`s happy,or maybe....just leave it as it is?

5 cents worth(not worth much these days)

[Shaun]

Just because they dont race F3 in the Nationals doesn't make there opinion any less valid, I didn't see you at all the rounds :bleh: and I don't think Shaun races F3 either

I think a HP cap is worthless unless other stuff like suspension, brakes, tyres are also controlled

No one said it did

The point to my question on who is posting that races is to try to get a majority opinion

You are write, I do not race F3, but I am dam sure I will do all that I possibly can to Help make racing better in our country, as shown by all the young racers I help

[Chops]

:niceone:

I race. But not at the nats...yet.

[Shaun]

:niceone:

I race. But not at the nats...yet.


Key word is
























yet.
:rockon:

[Brian d marge]

I found 2 cents * actually i cashed up my five cents * so am using some of it here
Seems to me that the racing classes in NZ should have a clear goal or aim
so that someone starting out with stars in there eyes, can when they reach the upper levels move up, on or sideways and have Skills that are of use to team owners.

Example would be Rossi, started out on 125 now at the top level is winning , because he can work WITH engineers to dial in a bike.. If I sent someone out on my MX bike , with the wrong spring rate but with the preload jacked up to give correct sag numbers , I wonder how many poeple would come back and ask if the spring rate is correct, or even mention preload ?

Also as PT pointed out, the jump from one class to another needs to be controlled as a jump from say a 400 cc to a national level bike could be to much of a financial jump

I would like to see, say * as an example* ,,Class A a bike costing a grand to buy , No changes Class B bikes costing 2k to buy Changes to the suspension FROM this approved list
Class C bikes costing 3k , changes to the engine AND suspension ....

I am not saying word the rules , to say yoour bike must be purchased for 1000 dollars
What I am saying is word the rules or influence the class so that the bikes running there TEND to cost that amount ..Buckets for example ... cant think of any bike out there that are running the owner to 10 k a year ,,, no most buckets are around the 500 to 1k mark

so as one progressed through the sport , you would be picking up sponsors , bike set up and race craft, You could sell the bike at the end of the season , and with a small amount of money progress up the ladder, and when you were offered a dream ride from a great team such as Royal Enfield :dodge: you would be well versed in translating what happened on the track to the engineers/mechanic setting up your bike ,,, IMHO useable

I am sorry I am not converstant with the rules that were offered at the begining of this thread, but I do think that NZ riders would be a lot better equipped for the lime light IF they had a thougher grounding in the art of setting up a bike and race craft....and there would be a lot more turnover of machines and one assumes fuller grids , if the steps were financially small enough. ( the cost of travelling is always going to stay the same ..)

As for testing engines , that would be easy, MCNZ would specify which dynos and operators were to be used in the major centers and in case of argument, BOTH partys would stump up the cost,,, At national meetings the dyno would be available ( there is usually someone at a nat meeting running a dyno ,,there was one at the chch A & P show !!! for example

We have a few experts in NZ for various bit ,like engine , suspension ..Im sure they could draw up a list of approved suppliers and/or mods

Just a thought

Stephen

Ps must awfully boring going round and round with no up and down bits :innocent::eek::dodge:

[Shaun]

Just to quote you first mate


I am sorry I am not converstant with the rules that were offered at the begining of this thread, but I do think that NZ riders would be a lot better equipped for the lime light IF they had a thougher grounding in the art of setting up a bike and race craft....and there would be a lot more turnover of machines and one assumes fuller grids ,

if the steps were financially small enough. ( the cost of travelling is always going to stay the same ..)


There it is again, financially small enough! it's motor sport dude, and if any one is serious about making it there career, they better get used to having no other life becuse they just spent there last cent, Kiwi's are really are a tight bunch of whinging twats who want everything for nothing, hence the red shit hole The Wharehouse is so popular, now I'm starting to rant on.

Ok what about, For the Nationals F3 Class, we go with Frosty's 75hp cap, ( Logistics of how to police to be soughted later) and allow anything you want to do to your chassis simple!

For Club Scene racing ( Because that is where you start with the basics and then move on to the Nats) We do not allow Modified twins in to the F3 class, ( Key word Modified) Std can still race.

We could combine 400's Std SV's and 125's together, to make the focus of this being the learning grade at the club champs, as well as the low cost class at the club scene.

Modified Twins race in F2, I Know I know, THATS NOT FARE, THEY HAVE 600.s in there, well wippy shit, look at it this way

People with Modified twins in the F2 class at the winter series racing are either riding dads bike, which must mean they want to go forward if that amount of money has left there pocket, so the finances do not really come into it, or are there for pre season nats testing! or really only do the Club scene, so what does it really matter where you come, hey, you are only doing it for fun, otherwise you would be doing the Nats! ( Not putting anybody down before someone jumps on my back)

There is approx 18 fully modified SV's racing in NZ that I know off, and I know where 3 more are getting built at the moment.

Is there anyway we can escape from the concept of we are owed a break in life here in NZ, I am sure the attitude used to be

Can do Will DO or I will give a bloody good go

PS Stephen, You hit the nail on the head, if a young hotshot was to appear ( There are a couple showing promise of world ambitions and abilitiy) how the hell would they ever be able to get a good ride over seas without knowing how to set a bike up? and how do you set up a bike with no adjustments?

Now bugger off and go eat some Miso Rammen for me and some YASAHETAAME man I miss that food, and my local Japa shop has shut down, at least I can still buy Kirin.

[Brian d marge]

Well If I can do it I am sure others can !, This year for example I have had a crack at a few races , (now I admit I am the wortest racer there is , possible The worst ,,,BUT I am out there ! ..( all right so I hire my self out as a mobile chicane ,, ) But this year I have had a stab at the local club cup , an big Enduro a trail ride in NZ and a X country in NZ I learnt a lot from the christchurch one .. lije your track are all heavy on the low speed shim stacks , large fluid flows and soft stacks

So while I cant chuck money at things I can get the same results by putting my thinking cap on ! , an example would be My cr at the moment ,,,the clutch is way to stiff compared with the 06 models , ,,Ill get there ,,Just takes a bit of thinkin thats all !

So if you aint got money you just have to think smarter ,, everything can be done ,,,ya just got to try thats all ,,( damn that was the last of me 2 cents worth ..)

Better bugger of then ,

Summers gone now ( yahoo ) so I am back in the garage , Motegi is comming up the typhoon season is looking like a short one .. and the local super market is running a special on single malt Islay wiskey ( 3000 yen again yahoo ) thats the news from Lake woebegone ....

Stephen

[ZorsT]

There it is again, financially small enough! it's motor sport dude, and if any one is serious about making it there career, they better get used to having no other life becuse they just spent there last cent, Kiwi's are really are a tight bunch of whinging twats who want everything for nothing, hence the red shit hole The Wharehouse is so popular, now I'm starting to rant on.

I can see your point, but what about all the poor students?
Right now I have great fun on my RG(s), but in the future I will be upgrading. F3 is the logical choice, and a $3000 400 would be the bike i'd use. If this 400 wasn't competitive at a club level, i wouldn't bother... I'm sure others would think the same. Isn't lack of numbers how classes die?

Ok what about, For the Nationals F3 Class, we go with Frosty's 75hp cap, ( Logistics of how to police to be soughted later) and allow anything you want to do to your chassis simple!

For Club Scene racing ( Because that is where you start with the basics and then move on to the Nats) We do not allow Modified twins in to the F3 class, ( Key word Modified) Std can still race.

We could combine 400's Std SV's and 125's together, to make the focus of this being the learning grade at the club champs, as well as the low cost class at the club scene.
I think this could work. Would the 250 2-smokers be included in there?

[cowpoos]

I can see your point, but what about all the poor students?


errrrrr......what about the poor students???
if you wanna go racing get a job.....earn some money....other people do it!!
why should there be a special dispensation for poor people? if your poor...go earn some money.....its quite simple....and I'm not singling you out....goes for everyone thats whinging poverty....I've never been so broke in my life right now,since I've started racing....but I'm not complianing....and I know I'll have no regrets....

Look at texmo.....he's on the bones of his arse....working huge hours...two jobs....all so he can race....

if you have a passion for something....you'll always find a way to do it....
and if you want to be compeditive....you'll have to find the money....and you'll have to work....just like you can't just start a new job and expect to be at the top of your chosen vocation right away earning the big dollars....and thats a attatude far to bloody comon in young people these days....

end of rant.....I need a cuppa ;)

[ZorsT]

errrrrr......what about the poor students???
if you wanna go racing get a job.....earn some money....other people do it!!
why should there be a special dispensation for poor people? if your poor...go earn some money.....its quite simple....and I'm not singling you out....goes for everyone thats whinging poverty....I've never been so broke in my life right now,since I've started racing....but I'm not complianing....and I know I'll have no regrets....

What i was trying to convey, is that a poor student (or many other people) even when living on the bones of their arse, cannot afford to buy an SV, then spend $10K to get it competitive. Even a $3K 1989 400 isn't an easy thing to buy for some people (me).

The next step in racing from streetstock shouldn't cost 10 times more to be competitive.

You are correct in saying that people that don't have jobs that complain about not being able to afford racing need a reality check though, there aren't many things that are more frustrating.

[cowpoos]

What i was trying to convey, is that a poor student (or many other people) even when living on the bones of their arse, cannot afford to buy an SV, then spend $10K to get it competitive. Even a $3K 1989 400 isn't an easy thing to buy for some people (me).


well you will just have to settle for being on a uncompeditive bike....

theres no need to make a rule change then is there?

I Think the rules are fine how they are.....in a couple of years sv650's will get alot cheaper.....more ex race SV's ern's etc will come up for sale....and all this debate will be forgotton about....

the only reason why this debate came up is obviously because some people without the $$$ to race compeditivly are crying foul !!!

tall poppy syndrome really.......hmmm

[kickingzebra]

Half the reason you race is to better your own self, it just so happens that the measuring stick is often other people (aye mikey ;)

If you can't be on the latest greatest, then ride what you got until you know without a doubt you are riding it as hard as it can be ridden!

Then when the bug really bites, you can get soo addicted you'll go without to feed it, and before you know it you'll be on a nice and shiney new beast.

The goals of the rules are good, but I think (on the club scene anyway) you are racing against yourself first and foremost, and hence the rules should reflect that by not penalising those who can do something to make the bike run better.
Maybe a run your own time system like at the drags. I say I want to do 1:16s this time, and If I am closer to the mark than someone who wants to run 1:10 but does a 1:08 instead, then points awarded?!

I think a dual score system could be used, actual place vs place for class of bike. I dunno.

[slowpoke]

If you can't be on the latest greatest, then ride what you got until you know without a doubt you are riding it as hard as it can be ridden!


Yup, totally 100% agree.

Most of us are never going to ride all the National rounds yet we are getting bent out of shape about something that will never concern us.

It's getting away from the topic of Shaun's thread (yes mate, I can hear you throwing spanners around the workshop) but the biggest winge is about having a competive bike when realistically 80% of us (me included) are totally and completely uncompetive in the skill department.

FFS, I probably had one of the quicker bikes in my Clubmans class (still 6/7 years old) but I got toasted and roasted by theoretically much slower bikes. I couldn't give a rat's arse, 'cos I still met my goals of:
1) just making it to the track at all (working away from home)
2) having a blast

So you want to have an ultra-competive bike? Why, so you can hide your inability? So you can lose by less? For most of us the last 5% that determines winning and losing races is not going to be affected one iota by having an upside down front end on our SV or another 5hp. Get real, most of us are there for an adrenalin rush, a bit of craic with our mates and the enjoyment of being around bikes. Just enjoy riding the wheels off what ya got and if someone hands you a trophy at the end of the day it's a bonus.

[Shaun]

The above 3 posts are so clear, simple, direct, and accurate, what they have said is a fact of life, and Kickinzebra has only just started to race the club scene same with MR POOS, it really only takes a little less self indolgence to see that a lot of what has been going on is simply as COW POOS put it, the bloody NZ Tool Poppy Syndrome.

I have Introduced Paul Stewart ( Road racing commisioner) to this web site and the F3 rules discussion threads that are going on. PS DONT EXPECT HIM TO REPLY TO YOU ON THIS BOARD

Now this is the real funny bit that does not surprise me one little bit, because NZ's in the Road Racing scene ( As that is all I know about) have always been a bunch a whinging twats, that stand around having group huddles and fixing the world, but when it comes time for action, they all run, to busy? yea what ever!

So Stop blaiming MNZ for every god danm thing that goes wrong that you do not like. It is not a perfect world.

Now we have this thing called the tinternet, and we all just sit here banging away on our board and feeling big and brave towards the world, but cannot even write a fuckin lettar to our commisioner ( As he has asked all you/us to you) offering your thoughts on the rules ( Paul is a very good bloke who works hard for us for F.O.C) How the hell can he do his job when no one replies to his requests, how many of the people that have had there say on here have bothered to get of the internet and this false world, and put pen to paper ( So to speak) How many of you check our web site www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz ? Thought so.

2- How many 2! The other guy know who he is, and I know me ( Which one of me it is at the moment is beside the point)

2 other people that I am aware of have also written to him to help him make decisisons, these 2 others do not even ride in F3, but like myself they have a strong passion for our sport and a lot of experience in it, 2 of us combined have 40 years of history in our sport.

Time to go and play else where now, but please people, keep the big picture in mind here, not just your own pocket, and again as MR POOS said, you get nothing in life for free, so go get a job or another one, or go do a sport that you can be competitive in for 50cents, and stop whinging about this sport.

[FROSTY]

That reminds me--My last (long) e mail came back to me having qued too long at H$%$%$ --any Idea what happened Shaun??

Shaun -re --This bit
Ok what about, For the Nationals F3 Class, we go with Frosty's 75hp cap, ( Logistics of how to police to be soughted later) and allow anything you want to do to your chassis simple!

For Club Scene racing ( Because that is where you start with the basics and then move on to the Nats) We do not allow Modified twins in to the F3 class, ( Key word Modified) Std can still race.

We could combine 400's Std SV's and 125's together, to make the focus of this being the learning grade at the club champs, as well as the low cost class at the club scene.

Modified Twins race in F2, I Know I know, THATS NOT FARE, THEY HAVE 600.s in there, well wippy shit, look at it this way

No mate I disagree --F3 is F3 is F3 --by putting a 75 hp cap on it what happens is a guy on a well set up bike be it an RGV,ZXR400 or a SV650 is going to be competative on all but maybee pukihole. The point is to limit the Horsepower advantage of the twins.
I feel the rule should be an accross the board thing at club or national level
Keeping in mind really its only the Ducs,sv's and the er6 that are with mods pumping out more than 80hp.so most people at club level dont have to bother with dynoing.
A simple difference I feel should be that at NATIONAL level you seal your motor/induction system at dyno run time-75 hp not one bit more.
At CLUB level you use the protest system. So -say FROSTY fronts on his 90hp sv and is blitzing the feild -KK fronts with his protest money and if my bike is over HP-I loose all series points -simple really
The other thing is -whatever the rule is it needs to be fixed in stone for 3 years.
Im pushing a rule that in essence will make my bike illegal to race in F3
Im fucked if im gonna build a new motor that complies only to have the rules change after a year.

[FROSTY]

copy of letter sent to MNZ
Throw stones if you like guys
Hiya Paul.

I’ve been thinking long and hard about this one

Ive spoken to you a couple of times about the proposed changes to Formula 3 rules.

Im strong in my belief that a 75 hp cap on the class is the only practical solution to the whole F3 situation

75hp limit has a heap of REAL WORLD advantages.

1) It doesn’t add a whole bunch of new rules for the riders or scrutineers to memorise.Id go so far as to say scrap all the supplementary regs applying to the twins –Lets apply the KISS principle.

2) It means the 400’s have a fighting chance at national level.Untill such time as they ride themselves into extinction. (a good 400 pumps out 70hp)

3) It removes the opportunities for the “cheque book racers” to just buy Horsepower and therefore race wins.

4) It opens up the chances for a new racer to buy a new SV/er6/hyusung 650 off the showroom floor and be basicly competitive. But it also lets a new racer perhaps tight on his funds the chance to buy a fettled 400 or even 250 two stroke at a fraction of the price.


That said the ONLY way it can work is to make the penalties for cheating so harsh that its not conceivable to do so.

Its simple really ---A bloke is really fast in a straight line on his— SV650 say

I say his bike is over HP –bang my protest money in.

His bike is dyno’d on the nearest MNZ approved dyno –its doing 85hp

BANG—he looses ALL series points he’s accumulated and can’t race in class until his bike dynos up at 75hp or less.

Id suggest that a 2% variation be available at this point –Ie if he dyno’s up at 76.5 hp hell be ok –to allow for temp/humidity variations.-HOWEVER only available at this point provided he was only over by 2%

That said id suggest that the HP limit be enforced at a two tier level

At NATIONAL level –the bike MUST be dyno’d and sealed –both motor and inductions system. NO seals-- no racing in F3 same as the sprts proddy guys

At Club level it’s a matter of using the protest system and making the penalties Im suggesting totally enforced





Running within these rules Id suggest we need to get Suzuki NZ on board to run a 650 production series within F3. (at national level)

But production is PRODUCTION –No fancy shocks,fairings,brakes or tyres

Road tyres.remove the breakables,crash bungs,glass direct replica fairings .

Aftermarket bars but in the factory position.no tyre warmers And a replacement muffler only.

Suzuki because realisticly Kawasaki/Hyusung don’t have budgets available.

Suzuki AU is already offering deals on New SV’s for people prepared to race em –why not do it again over here –like the SV series

Please feel free to call me anytime to discuss—0210354615

Tony Frost/Frosty

[Shaun]

See Ya, I have just realised that I have really been wasting my time trying to help here

[212-Motorsport]

I Rekon we have a standard 650 class run what yah brung type thing and not worry about fancy suspensionthis sorta class could be a good steping stone for riders coming up from 150's ete and if suzuki,kawasaki,hyosung New Zealand were to get involved I cant see it been a big problem to get mnz to make a champisonship class!!

[mikey]

yeh took you a while

tiddly winks is a good sport if you want to win on a tight budget. or hangman. or scrabble. or monopoly.

no offence but who really cares about winning a f3 championship in nz, after speaking with the legend shaun himself, i mostly agree,
f3 an lesser classes are about learning to race, and part of learning is adjusting bits on your bike, which sv dont offer much of.

if you think your being beaten by someone only becasue they have a superior bike. BUY A NEW ONE. paying them off is part of the fun.

[madkeenandy]

I agree, if you want to race on a cheap budget get a bucket or streetstock bike. I know they are not fast enough, but if you are really passionate about racing then you won't care what you ride as long as you can. I know i have a helluva lotta fun in F3 on my RG150, even in the last third of the field.

[Hillbilly]

If you seriously want to race, no matter what the class, it will cost you $$$$.
Don't complain cos somene can afford a better set up. That's life. A stock SV or Raptor for example are basically sports tourers, not sports bikes. For the track will they will need to be set up properly, and that costs money.

There's an article in Cycle Torque Australia from aguy who tried to race the in "new era" class on the cheap by buying a wrecked CBR900RR and all he got was trouble, tank slapping in every corner. If you acn't afford it, buy go bucket racing. It's still racing and it's very competitive.

[Shaun]

I cont care what any of you rish ass racers think I Rekon we have a standard 650 class run what yah brung type thing who gives a Fuck about ohlins this ohlins that this sorta class should sort the bitchs from the men and if suzuki,kawasaki,hyosung New Zealand were to get involved I cant see it been a big problem to get mnz to make a champisonship class!!

I know I said I was done here, and I am as far as posting my opinions on these rules, but still read to see what people are wanting, cause I like our sport


Very sorry to the Admin of this site, I have just sent a pm to the above member ( Literally) Calling him a Wanker, please red flag me for my penence:done:

[ZorsT]

Could I have one too?

'cos I agree with this 'wanker'

While it is true that learning to dail in suspension is a needed skill in racing, wouldn't one learn more if they raced a bike that didn't handle EXACTLY as a racebike should?
To ride a bike like this well, and fast, everything you do would need to be execlent (throttle position, weight placement, breaking behaviour... you get my point). The riders sloppy, or misguided actions wouldn't be masked by having great suspension.
In saying this, i'm not trying to say that people with SV's with ohlins everything are sloppy riders.

If you disagree with me, whoopty shit. We all have our opinions.
But answer this question:
When you first learned to drive a car with a clutch, did your parents put you in a car that had a nice smooth, forgiving clutch, or force you to learn how with a difficult clutch, that either bunnyhopped you down the road, or stalled if you didn't get it *just* right?
Do you use the clutch better as a result?

[Hillbilly]

I don't know. This is my first car and what I learnt to drive in. Had to put a doorstop under the clutch otherwise my knee would hit the solid steel dash. It's '57 Plymouth Savoy. No, I never bunny hopped, but I ran out of gas a lot!
Bought and paid for it myself, and the old lady hated it! Now, did it make me a better driver? Abolutely! No powersteering, drum brakes all around, manual 3speed and a mirror on the dashboard.

But that's a car! Nothing about cars related to bikes. You drive a car, but ride a bike. What you learn to ride on won't be the same as what you'll be racing - apart from buckets. So, hands up how many CB250's in F3?

[slowpoke]

Could I have one too?

'cos I agree with this 'wanker'

While it is true that learning to dail in suspension is a needed skill in racing, wouldn't one learn more if they raced a bike that didn't handle EXACTLY as a racebike should?
To ride a bike like this well, and fast, everything you do would need to be execlent (throttle position, weight placement, breaking behaviour... you get my point). The riders sloppy, or misguided actions wouldn't be masked by having great suspension.
In saying this, i'm not trying to say that people with SV's with ohlins everything are sloppy riders.

If you disagree with me, whoopty shit. We all have our opinions.
But answer this question:
When you first learned to drive a car with a clutch, did your parents put you in a car that had a nice smooth, forgiving clutch, or force you to learn how with a difficult clutch, that either bunnyhopped you down the road, or stalled if you didn't get it *just* right?
Do you use the clutch better as a result?

Remember the thread is about rules for the Nationals. The National rounds should reward people who display excellence in bike preparation and/or riding talent, I don't see it as an arena to cater for brand new racers struggling for cash.
The beginners classes already exist at your local club meets. You can wobble around to your hearts content getting a feel for it in Buckets or Clubmans or pre-89's.
If you like it and want to go the next step then sure jump into F3. But at some stage you are going to want something you can tune and setup, rather continuing to ride around an ill handling bike.

In response to your example, teach someon to drive in an old bomb, then throw them into a new car and the first thing they'll do is stall the bugger 'cos it's so completely different. The sooner you can get them into current technology machinery the sooner they'll learn to master it.

[Brian d marge]

Now thats it ..I have had to borrow this 2cents worth ,,so I better make it last,
Racing is just that ..I am faster than you , period ( along the way there is a hell of a lot of fun)

Professional racing is profesional , each person doing the job that they are paid for to the utmost of their ability

My hero is carrol smith, wish I could have swept the floor at his shop . I ( as has already been observed ,) disagree with it costs money to race ...

Yes it does cost money, but I see time and time again money spent in the wrong places, off the top of my head would be Jarad love losing Paeroa due to still having a stock anti tilt sensor fitted to his bike ....??????

look at that ole triump in the side car class ,,, * thats an extreme case ,,*


The stuff that is coming out of the factory now is pretty good , but production tolerances mean that the cheaper way is often taken ( I love the r1 rear shock , larger shaft dia so that they can un looser tolerances , which saves a lot on the production line !
What I am sayin here is if you use your noddle you can achieve the same results without chucking ill spent money at things ,,( wave rotors anyone???)

So as I have said be fore , I would like to see a clear line of stepping stone that will result in riders being skilled enough ( in both racing AND corparate affairs, so that they will be of use to team owners, ( the people I know dont want some friendly fella who was good at his local track , they want results ,,
you dont want to know how much a booth at motegi costs !!!!!

It costs a bucket load of money to get a bike to the track with all the other paraphanalia that goes with it. ( NO I am not shooting my self in the foot , I am talking about racng at motegi at the national level . The people who race there have done their time in the super stocks or foggotten era )

So If I was a team owner, I would be wanting a rider, who could talk with the mechanic to dial in the bike QUICKLY. ( rossi , old tyres ?? ) a rider who brings in sponsorship and gets results ,,So that I can expliot the bugger !

Now originally F3 ( as far as I understand ) was about 400/250 2 stroke.,,but these bikes are not made anymore ,( last june the Jap government gave the ok for pilions to be taken on the motorway, yes there is still the 400cc licience BUT the fashion in shinjuku is for scooters * the burghman etc with cut down screens )

The factories are about a year behind this fashion ( except America honda who seems to be on the ball !)
So they arnt made anymore ,,ftr250 with all the crap removed is the latest,, whatch honda next year,,,flattracker anyone ...Nakes /retro anyone ( at least yamaha are pushing the boundries ..)

Rvf400s still command a price , but they arnt made now ,,, SO The only GROWTH class here is ST600

I think Britain has/is the same

So we need a stepping stone to F2?? * not sure of the name in NZ *

I would suggest buckets, Foggotten era ( or the eguiv , where one canpurchase for around 2-3 k _ , F2 , and either a gp250 or and open class

That was a very quick thought, the key there is as you progress so the skills needed are more in demand ,,,buckets ,,try anything , learn, create have fun

fogotten era , bigger bikes, more scope for adjustability , Sponsors getting on board ,,etc

F2 ,,starting to become semi pro her , 2000 ish cbr600, range of adjustment semi profesional crews....

National

professional. top of the line , you are out of there if you dont know squat ,, no boys playing with toys ... money to be spent and MADE..


Where does that leave F3..... Well personally a class that has 400 four strokes, 650 twins and 250 2 strokes RUNNING with super motard bikes is just a mess..IMHO

its either lap times ala aussie. or HP limits ( which cost money to enforce _) So if you do a 0.00003 second lap of queen street .. on a bicycle ...you sit on the grid next to me ( a legend in his own bedroom.. with a second hand copy of readers wives .. )

but there MUST imho be a CLEAR learning curve ,,from cradle to grave

there is here , today I was watching the kids racing pocket bikes.. the team set ups were very professional even at 5 or 6 years of age , on a pocket bike , they had pit tents ,, tyre warmers , SPONSORSHIP

Then they progressed to the NSR80 / 100 bikes , then to the RS125 then to the rs250 , then to ST600 ,,then to JSB 1000 .. right from the start its PROFESSIONAL ( well at least the attitude is .. wont say much about anything else .. proof here (http://mfj.or.jp/user/contents/Watching-a-game_info2004/BBMFJ/index.html)

My local shop races a 2001 cbr 600 in the st class, which can be bought for 1/2 a milion yen here (http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/93659853)
( that was the first one I found ,,22 hours to go if anyone wants it ! 1/2 a million was the most I have seen them go for ..)

Finally and I think most importantly is make the races a place where you misses want to go ,, Ruapuna on a cold grey day is HELL.. ( cold hotdog anyone ,,with red shit on it?? * what IS that stuff anyway ???)

Motegi on a cold grey day ,,has a great burger bar , shops , a video bar playing big screen bike races ( last time I was watching a lecture by the fella who designed the oval piston Honda ...- NZ has the hamilton jet ,,the britain , the worlds fastest indian ,,,,,,,,,,,)

oh dear waffling again and Nurse has called Matron ... so I better clear up this mess and scurry off to bed ,,before I get in to trouble


Stephen

If anyone requires advice on any matter , please write to me at the adress below

Horatio Wombat the third
D wing ( secure unit )
Happy valley Rest home
Tsuresehigashi
Japan

Please mark for the attention of Matron





the links may not work the rotten server has crashed sorry will try to find a better link later

[Kickaha]

I know I said I was done here, and I am as far as posting my opinions on these rules, but still read to see what people are wanting, cause I like our sport


Very sorry to the Admin of this site, I have just sent a pm to the above member ( Literally) Calling him a Wanker, please red flag me for my penence:done:


You would deserve it

Just because someone has a contrary opinion and different ideas to yours does not make him a wanker

nice way to encourage the young guys Shaun

[cowpoos]

Could I have one too?

'cos I agree with this 'wanker'

While it is true that learning to dail in suspension is a needed skill in racing, wouldn't one learn more if they raced a bike that didn't handle EXACTLY as a racebike should?
To ride a bike like this well, and fast, everything you do would need to be execlent (throttle position, weight placement, breaking behaviour... you get my point). The riders sloppy, or misguided actions wouldn't be masked by having great suspension.
In saying this, i'm not trying to say that people with SV's with ohlins everything are sloppy riders.

If you disagree with me, whoopty shit. We all have our opinions.
But answer this question:
When you first learned to drive a car with a clutch, did your parents put you in a car that had a nice smooth, forgiving clutch, or force you to learn how with a difficult clutch, that either bunnyhopped you down the road, or stalled if you didn't get it *just* right?
Do you use the clutch better as a result?


I see where your coming from....but stock suspension on the track upto about 70% is okay....valving is alot more agresive when set up on a race bike....and set up is alot more balanced....and one hell of alot safer!

[ZorsT]

But that's a car! Nothing about cars related to bikes. You drive a car, but ride a bike. What you learn to ride on won't be the same as what you'll be racing - apart from buckets. So, hands up how many CB250's in F3?

The was I see it, the process of learning how to race is very similar to learning to drive a manual car, only more complicated.
You get told/read about how to do it
you go out there, and you try it
you (sometimes) get it wrong a few times
you then learn from these mistakes
get it right
practice getting it right, until it becomes second nature

F3 is a class that many people who have ridden for a while start out in.

Why not leave learning suspension until its needed (600's)?
While it is safer to have great suspension, i think the racers produced that learn this way would be smoother, and more understanding.

Go straight from an old car to a new car... first thing you do is stall it. Yep. Max of three times (five if your a slow learner) Thats how you learn. Mistakes.

[Shaun]

212-Motorsport
L-Plate Rider
Bike: Suzuki SV 650 Race Bike
Location: Invercargill


I cont care what any of you rish ass racers think I Rekon we have a standard 650 class run what yah brung type thing who gives a Fuck about ohlins this ohlins that this sorta class should sort the bitchs from the men and if suzuki,kawasaki,hyosung New Zealand were to get involved I cant see it been a big problem to get mnz to make a champisonship class!!


Young Mr Anthony Stephens, ( AKA 212) To you I apoligise for my imature actions and wording I used in my PM to you, and I will still spend my own money making tool calls to a certain family in the south Island that has done so much for your racing, giving them advice and set up idea's to try on your bike!


You would deserve it

Just because someone has a contrary opinion and different ideas to yours does not make him a wanker

nice way to encourage the young guys Shaun

Kickaha, it was not that his opinion differed, it was the foul wording and the abuse at people on this forum that are only trying to help, by offering there opinions based on many moons of experience.

Now if you think it is ok for a 15 year old BOY, to get on here and rant like that at/to some one,who has spent there own Money,and time, on helping the people that have been trying to help him ie, his old sponsor John Adairs! well Sir, to you I apoligise as well, and please exscuse me for poor judgement, and I will endevour to make sure I never have a slip like that again.


Arguing on the internet is like a pig in shit, the more you do it, the sooner you realise that they love it

Have a very nice day.:sunny:

[Hillbilly]

Why not leave learning suspension until its needed (600's)?
While it is safer to have great suspension, i think the racers produced that learn this way would be smoother, and more understanding.


Here's what Tim Sanford wrote in the July issue of Cycle Torque while reviewing the Cagiva Raptor 650:


Once you push harder than a fast tour over indifferent surfaces the bikes suspension reaches it's discomfort zone. Try knee-dragging and you'll end up dragging something a bit more painful than your knee: the lack of sophistication in the suspension reduces it's ability to keep the wheels in constant contact with the road surface....

[ZorsT]

That problem is easily avoided. Stay away from Cagiva Raptors.
If they really are that bad, why would someone be racing one anyway?
The tracks surface is usually a tad more desirable than the 'indifferent surfaces' Tim is speaking of anyway.

[Chops]

Arguing on the internet is like a pig in shit, the more you do it, the sooner you realise that they love it

:rofl:

Good shot Shaun...

The thing is, those of us who have got the older bikes are feeling a little :buggerd:

And then we find a lovely little thread to bitch on...:innocent:

I'm building something, though, that will either bring me up to the 650's level in terms of power (and with more torque), or be hilariously unrideable...:shutup: on that subject though.

It will be F3 legal under the current- or older- rules.
I'm outta here:scooter: . See you'se on another thread... unless this one can go back to the original subject.

:bye:

[cowpoos]

:rofl:

Good shot Shaun...

The thing is, those of us who have got the older bikes are feeling a little :buggerd:

And then we find a lovely little thread to bitch on...:innocent:

I'm building something, though, that will either bring me up to the 650's level in terms of power (and with more torque), or be hilariously unrideable...:shutup: on that subject though.

It will be F3 legal under the current- or older- rules.
I'm outta here:scooter: . See you'se on another thread... unless this one can go back to the original subject.

:bye:
ditto.....I hav a project F3 bike aswell.....and it should be very compeditive under the rules.....and build cost will be a total of about 5K ready to race.....

but then.....I could be wrong ;)

[mikey]

212-Motorsport
L-Plate Rider
Bike: Suzuki SV 650 Race Bike
Location: Invercargill

Young Mr Anthony Stephens, ( AKA 212) To you I apoligise for my imature actions and wording I used in my PM to you, and I will still spend my own money making toll calls to a certain family in the south Island that has done so much for your racing, giving them advice and set up idea's to try on your bike!

now if you think it is ok for a 15 year old BOY, to get on here and rant like that at/to some one,who has spent there own Money,and time, on helping the people that have been trying to help him ie, his old sponsor John Adairs! well Sir, to you I apoligise as well, and please exscuse me for poor judgement, and I will endevour to make sure I never have a slip like that again.

ave a very nice day.:sunny:

hooooo hooooo hoooo

burn "boy"

in any other developed country likes of shuan would be chargin hundreds per hour. guess you don't appreciate shit if its free

thanks for my evening kiwibiker jollies

[Tim 39]

I'm not guna get into this huge argument, (I can't b bothad readin it all)as it doesnt affect me. I used to have an NSR250 that I ran in F3 and I decided that what they could do was seperate F3 by running a 650 production (production style rules) and then just F3 being whatever is left, 400's 250's etc for people who want to ride these sorts of bikes and get a taste for things like the nats and do it more cheaply because lets face it 250's aren't the most competitive bike against an SV (F3 was doing better times at nats than 250 GP let alone 250 proddie!!!) so seperate them out!, there are enough SV's etc to have their own class now anyway and then 250/ 400 riders don't fell they "have" to go sv to be competitive, so win win i rekn.
By the way you all have some valid points in the argument so I won't take sides:P ( I don't know much about rules etc, but why not base it on 600 production sort of rules?)

[Tim 39]

I'm building something, though, that will either bring me up to the 650's level in terms of power (and with more torque), or be hilariously unrideable...:shutup: on that subject though.

what are you building? may I ask?

[Shaun]

Thanks for the PM mate, I,ve been where you have just gone before, see ya at the track

[212-Motorsport]

Thinking of the future


To all concerned in this thread that have been posting there thoughts on this subject.

If you feel offended by my Choice of words with my post RE Rich ______, please accept this as my apology.

I do appreciate your input.

Regards Anthony Stephens

[Tim 39]

Good on you Anthony, a good way to fix a bad situation :Playnice: lol
I accept your apology, and I hope everyone else does!!

[Shaun]

Awsome mate!

[Shaun]

Fuck off dick weed blood sucking injury chasing pain leaching homo sexual gay bar loiterer that likes to watck little boys do there from up in trees

PS, O Morning G

[oyster]

A message for Anthony, from Yoda. He called last night, couldn't track you down, so left a message. He said he gave you a bit of tuition a while back on how to sorry (unconditionally) and the value it has. He is very pleased now
after initial disappointment reading your poor wording of a very good point of view. Yoda says people are judged not by their mistakes but how they act after realising it. Your apology makes Yoda very happy and is sure you will be well rewarded.

I hope this message I've passed on all makes sense (can't figure it out myself)

Oyster