Stress!

[scumdog]

How many of you KBrs out there have stressful jobs? and how do you cope?

My way is alcohol (sorry) and attending m'bike rallies - the guys-n-chicks there are awsome, they know what I do for a living and yet are the most unjudgemental/supportive/friendly bunch I could wish for, just hanging out for the next rally (Pissed Penguin at Kaka Point south of Dunedin 11th Sept).

I'm on your side believe it or not!!!

Scumdog

[SpankMe]

Stress relief....

Take a long ride on the bike out to the country and kill small furry animals with a gun. :crazy:

[scumdog]

Yeah, I know where you are coming from, I use an AK47 on the wallabies and goats and a Sako 308 lever action on most any other bigger animal but the others frown on using them at rallies!! - reckon it's a bit over the top :crazy:

[Motu]

I'm thinking I've got a stressful job these days,the novelty of my own business has long worn off and it's a hell of a grind 60 hrs or more a week to get absolutly nowhere in life - I need my bike,go for walks and have a beer or glass of wine after work to knock the edge off.Been thinking lately I don't know how much more of it I can handle - ''thanks mate'' would lift my spirits for a month.

[scumdog]

Motu mate, I have also been down that road, I'm not saying where but you end up a target of all those that see you as an"easy" mark and it doesn't matter how hard you work, whatever you do is what they expect and no "thank you mate" is forthcoming, - stick to biker rallies, hunting and booze - at least in them you can trust!!!! :whocares:

[jrandom]

Take a long ride on the bike out to the country and kill small furry animals with a gun. :crazy:

Wot 'e said.

Also I find a bit of lifting at the gym does absolute wonders. None of this endless running on a treadmill, though.

Matter of fact, I must get my fat arse along there tonight and see if I can't kickstart a training routine again.

[MikeL]

How many of you KBrs out there have stressful jobs? and how do you cope?


Would probably be easier to ask who hasn't got a stressful job. (If there is anyone who fits that description please let me know, along with details of any vacancies...)
Apart from the bike, I've found the best solution is regular hard physical exercise. Every night when I get home from work it's straight to the gym for at least an hour. Some nights when I arrive I seem to have absolutely no energy and yet 10 minutes into the workout I start to feel alive again. Finish off with 10 minutes in the sauna, and back home to a bottle of home brew and then a glass of wine with dinner. I never take work home with me apart from the few occasions during the year when I have to mark exam papers.

[White trash]

I don't have a stressfull job. At all.

People think I'm mental when I tell them that I get out of bed in the morning and go "Fuck, I can't wait to get to work." And no, I'm not being a sarcastic prick.

In fact, there's only one job that would lure me from where I am, and that's to test bikes full time for a major magazine.

[riffer]

My job's not stressful.

In fact, its a little too cruisy.

But after twenty years in advertising, dammit I deserve a cruise :rolleyes:

[pete376403]

my job is not really stressful but the uncertainty of not knowing if the job will be there next week can be a worry. But I guess that applies to just about everyone except politicians.

[James Deuce]

My job used to be stressful. Somehow I ended up with "Human Beings" for bosses when I made an internal transfer. They ask nothing more than a participatory attitude, and you actually get thanked for attempting something irrespective of ultimate outcome. Weird.

Most of my stress comes from other stuff (University, family, random lane changes) and the single biggest stress relief I have found is returning to bikes and riding regularly. My wife has commented on my returning humanity.

[SPman]

Most of my stress comes from other stuff (University, family, random lane changes) and the single biggest stress relief I have found is returning to bikes and riding regularly.
Wot he said 2

Work used to be stressful, so I said to meself " Fuckit - I dont need this", left the office job, went back on the tools, decided I could live on not much, and cruise through approx 40rs a week renovating houses for cruisy people who actually pay me. :2thumbsup

[FROSTY]

The big stress in my job is dealing with people who tell huge lies.
Why do people have to lie---like its a habit

[MacD]

How many of you KBrs out there have stressful jobs? and how do you cope?


Well I'm not sure my job is that stressful in itself, but the management surely makes it that way (I suspect this is a common problem)! Also studying while having a full-time job doesn't help, however that should be finished as of yesterday! :banana:

Riding my motorbike is definitely a great stress-reliever. Apart from the general buzz of riding a bike, I find there's a mediation-like aspect to concentrating on riding. Stops you thinking about those other things for a while. After a six year gap without a bike, I can't see myself giving up riding again until I'm not longer physically capable.

I also find a quick bash at a first-person-shooter is a good way of winding down - though the real thing (with cute fluffy bunny/possum targets of course) isn't bad either! :2guns:

Oh, and one of these is always good! --> :apint:

[bungbung]

I have a cruisy government job. Initiative is frowned upon, and motivation simply isn't required. I do enjoy it.

[Ms Piggy]

I used to have a stressful job (well I found it stressful) part of the reason was b/c I got to the point where I hated it! So I left (still work there part time though) and went to Uni. Bugger me if it aint more stressful! :crazy: But it's a different kind of stress and I'll be rewarded at the end with a degree & a career :niceone:

Although last night at 4.30 when I just finished my last exam for the semester that a g'n't or 2 and those few Speights I had were very rewarding!! :beer: :apint: :apint: :apint:

The ways I deal with stress though (which was the question):

(a) Drinking, only sometimes though b/c I'm not a huge fan of hangovers.

(b) Talking it over with someone who gives a shit.

(c) Avoiding further stress, maybe not always practical.

(d) Exercising, taking my dog for a walk and I've just started swimming 3 days a week. Healthy body, healthy mind is true.

(e) Getting away from extra stress, I become a bit of a hermit at exam time & my flatmates know not to bug me too much.

and last but not least

(f) Getting out on my bike, no-one can bug me at all...well ok stupid cagers but even they aren't that annoying.

[Hooks]

After years of being selfemployed I tried the work-for-someone-else thing....Didn't work as I had a job that required doing plenty of hours ... :doh: then when my wife shot through leaving me with 4 kids I discovered real stress :gob: So I went out and got me a bike !!.....now when things piss me off or i need space from the rats I wait until they're at school and I go look down roads for that one corner that will really test my nerve and give me proof that life still exists !!!
Only the bike keeps me sane .....if what I am these days can be called sane :killingme

[Firefight]

Ah neeedlework//study of fine poetry, :Pokey:

Just Jokin

1) Ride bike,
2) Walk dog (big dog=long walks)
3) Ride bike
4) Drink Darm rum (lots of)
5) Sober up
6) Ride bike
7) Hang out at secone home (bike shop)
8) KB site.

F/F :crazy:

[vifferman]

Hey Guys, take it easy on the alcohol - it's not the best idea for stress relief, but the exercise is a good idea. No, I'm not being a 'wowser' - I have the odd beer / Jim Beam / wine meself, but using alcohol medicinally is asking for trouble long term, as it's a depressant of the central nervous system.
Anyways - my job is giving me a different kind of stress. It's so damned boring, and I have so little to do (I like to be busy, even on my days off), that it stresses me out. As does worrying about if/when I'm going to be sacked.
Yeah, laugh if you want, but this is the first job I've had where I'm stuck at my desk all day and have no variety at all in what I'm doing. I'm sure that the stress of doing a boring job I really hate is responsible for developing arthritis and clinical depression, and what made it worse is I confided to the HR person and my previous boss about it. Initially they made all the right supportive noises, then after a week or so they threatened to sack me for non-performance. Arseholes. :argh:
Luckily my current boss (same job) knew all about it before they appointed him, and if he catches me relieving the boredom by writing to you guys or whatever, he doesn't give me a hard time about it.
I'm currently taking nothing for arthritis, and I've kicked the prescription droogs for the depression, and using (legal) herbal shit instead. I also go for a walk every morning at 6 AM (can't do vigorous exercise coz of the AAAARthritis). Exercise is good though - makes your brain produce endorphins (happiness drugs) as does SEX. :banana:
I'm still not right :wacko: and every day is a struggle.
I really HATE my job - the pay's good, but it drags me down. I've been looking for a new one for the whole 5 years I've been in this role, but despite lotsa interviews, zero. Nada. Zip.
The highlight of my day is riding to work - this morning was an absolute cracker, with lots of irresponsible hooning, including lots of small wheelies. :laugh:

[Ms Piggy]

Hey Guys, take it easy on the alcohol - it's not the best idea for stress relief,
I agree with ya FS but sometimes it's just nice to get a bit pissed & relaaaaaaaaaaax. Not my first choice for stress relief, usually I'll talk to a friend or family member.

[vifferman]

I agree with ya FS but sometimes it's just nice to get a bit pissed & relaaaaaaaaaaax.
Indeed. It usually works for me, makes me feel really mellow :mellow:
I'd rather that than droogs, and beer's got to be good for you - it's got vitamin B in it. :beer:
Pity it's not good for arthritis. :no:
And wine is even worse. :weep:

But thank goodness for Jim Beam :niceone:

[KATWYN]

Plenty of vitamins daily, B's and Bee Pollen (superfood)

KB site as well....so there you go


Oh....

and of course booze :apint: (I have an excuse like all good alkies...its
in my family genes :laugh: )

[k14]

Oooh, some of you do seem a bit stressed out. Probably can't really comment cause I have no idea what it is like.

Just become a student, do nothing for 5 or 6 years and rack up a huge student loan. Doesn't have any stress at all, even though I got exams next week, lol.

[Cajun]

I work for pretty much the largest port in new zealand, as a system admin, and it gets very stressful from time to time, like any business down time is money, any errors is money, and customers always wanting everything and the kitchen sink, but not wanting to do anything in return.

I am pretty much care free sorta person, my first and major stress relive is the motorcycle, even its just a good ride home from work(i live rural its fun at times)
Other way is shoot crap out of things, either gun, or computer gun

[Blackbird]

I work a 55-60 hour week but it isn't the hours that stuff things up, it's the constant restructuring and uncertainty!

Going to the gym helps enormously. A decent walk or cycle ride would do the same job.
Going easy on the alcohol. (Sharing a wine with friends is different!)

I've just been on a superb course run by the guy who trained McDonald and Fergusson to Olympic Gold. His first rule is that YOU control your own destiny: i) Accept the current status quo, stop grizzling and get on with life, ii) Change the rules by taking control of the situation and do something about it, iii) Change the game - get out of it.

I elected to take option ii) at this stage and it's helped no end. Option iii) is a bit further down the track :)

Cheers

Geoff

[MikeL]

Oooh, some of you do seem a bit stressed out. Probably can't really comment cause I have no idea what it is like.

Just become a student, do nothing for 5 or 6 years and rack up a huge student loan. Doesn't have any stress at all, even though I got exams next week, lol.

When I was a student stress hadn't been invented. No semesters, internal assessment, student loans...
Now some of the most stressed-out people I know are students. University has been turned into a factory and the excitement of intellectual discovery has become drudgery.
Brave new world...

[Zed]

How many of you KBrs out there have stressful jobs? and how do you cope?When I leave work for the day - I leave it there and don't take it home. I have this ability to be able to switch off and forget about it...my wife on the other hand does not have this ability so I find myself getting stressed out over her work? :crybaby:

Taking a day off work from time to time helps.



Zed

Ps. I really feel for you guys that have jobs that are all-consuming...more of a life than a job. My time may come when this happens to me too?

[Hitcher]

One thing I have always made a conscious decision about regarding stress management is NOT to drink alcohol -- In case it helps!!

I find it helps to have a range of activities in which you can get totally lost -- and riding a bike is right on top of my list. But other helpful activities include (attempting to play) golf, flying combat flight simulators, building civilisations, titting about with stuff in the basement and, best of all, hanging out with Mrs H.

[James Deuce]

One thing I have always made a conscious decision about regarding stress management is NOT to drink alcohol -- In case it helps!!

I find it helps to have a range of activities in which you can get totally lost -- and riding a bike is right on top of my list. But other helpful activities include (attempting to play) golf, flying combat flight simulators, building civilisations, titting about with stuff in the basement and, best of all, hanging out with Mrs H.

Hitcher have you tried Aces High?? (pimp pimp pimp pimp)

[Hitcher]

Hitcher have you tried Aces High?? (pimp pimp pimp pimp)

No. But only because I am nearly out of hard disc space. I need a CD writer, that way I can offload a squillion jpgs from our digital camera...

I am currently in lust with a Corsair...

[James Deuce]

No. But only because I am nearly out of hard disc space. I need a CD writer, that way I can offload a squillion jpgs from our digital camera...

I am currently in lust with a Corsair...

Four models of Corsair modelled in Aces High - F4U-1, F4U-1c, F4U-1d, F4U-4

I can get you a CD Writer for silly money. Do you want an internal or external?

[Blackbird]

When I was a student stress hadn't been invented. No semesters, internal assessment, student loans...
Now some of the most stressed-out people I know are students. University has been turned into a factory and the excitement of intellectual discovery has become drudgery.
Brave new world...


Mike - when I was a student, stress HAD been invented, albeit self-imposed :rolleyes: Lack of continuous assessment meant that I could be drunk all year and piss about until a month before Finals and then stress bigtime in an attempt to cram, haha.

Geoff

[k14]

When I was a student stress hadn't been invented. No semesters, internal assessment, student loans...
Now some of the most stressed-out people I know are students. University has been turned into a factory and the excitement of intellectual discovery has become drudgery.
Brave new world...

Yeah i know some students that stress about everything. Dunno if it is pressure from home to get really good marks etc, nothing really worries me. When I think about the $20000 debt and growing i have, i get a little depressed but doesn't last for long. Not worth stressing about things like that, it will sort itself out one day. There are alot more things to life than money and a little piece of paper that says you went to uni.

[Eddieb]

Definately the gym and riding. It's amazing what an hour of lifting weights can do, not just for the stress relief but also the energy levels.

Blackbird is also onto a good thing, I've recently done ii and am looking for ways I can do iii.

[Holy Roller]

I Didn't know that i was under stress <_< I hadn't had a proper holiday where I could unwind for several years. Anyway who needs holidays when one only works less than half a year on shifts. The problem came when I started up a business due to the restructuring at work, needed some backstop incase I was one of those who were down the road. Working two jobs, really just the business as work was a break from getting the business up and going. We were taking the business home every night and still do. Boy its a hard road getting a successful business up and going. Any way I got grumpy and hard on the family, no time to go hunting, my stress relief in the past.The kids reacted to my grumpiness and exploded back, nearly 20 yrs of mariage down the gurggler. The Mrs booked me into the doc. The Doc gave me 3 weeks off work, hence I could go to the brass monkey. The real blessing was just being by my self not having to do anything or be anywhere. It was the best holiday I have had in years. Though I was worried at the prospect of being single again.

Now I have to see a shrink and go through all the probs from my childhood, hopefully it will be good for me and my family. The Mrs realised that I do actually need time away and have put in place provision to be able to do this.
We have taken on staff this week to reduce the work load in the shop, and a bit down the road I will be able to look at leaving work and just be in the shop. A bit scary for someone who has always worked for a wage.
So far I have learnt to handle stress
1: Take time out , away from work
2: Get some help for personal probs
3: Use this help to be a better dad and husband.

[Racey Rider]

titting about with stuff in the basement

Titooing. :whistle:

Don't want you to Stress about it,
but isn't it "Titooing" about with stuff? :yes:


:calm:


:calm: ! !

1 2 3 4 5 6........

[Dr Bob]

Work used to be stressful, so I said to meself " Fuckit - I dont need this", left the office job, went back on the tools, decided I could live on not much, and cruise through approx 40rs a week renovating houses for cruisy people who actually pay me. :2thumbsup

My job isn't the stressful part of my life, I drop my kid of at school, go to work, come home at 2:30 to pick her up. We live about 5 metres from her classroom (a gate in our back fence meets up with the back door of the classroom).

But.... The stressful part of my life is the renovating. It used to be fun, but the specifications lady has been more demanding of late.

[NordieBoy]

Would probably be easier to ask who hasn't got a stressful job. (If there is anyone who fits that description please let me know, along with details of any vacancies...)

After 7 years I'm still getting paid to ride around on a motorbike all day and play with computers.

I still can't believe I get paid for doing this.

:apint:

[Dr Bob]

Mike - when I was a student, stress HAD been invented, albeit self-imposed :rolleyes: Lack of continuous assessment meant that I could be drunk all year and piss about until a month before Finals and then stress bigtime in an attempt to cram, haha.

Geoff

Unfortunately it seems some students still do this. However, the biggest stress for students is that some of them try to cope working 20 hours a week (quite a few that I have met do 30) and still cope with a full time University load. And then they have a cheek to complain that there is too much course work.

[Hitcher]

Four models of Corsair modelled in Aces High - F4U-1, F4U-1c, F4U-1d, F4U-4

I can get you a CD Writer for silly money. Do you want an internal or external?

F4U-4, Hmmmmmmm

Silly money? You're talking my language! I'd need a techo to install an internal version, as I don't have any spare external ports...

[Hitcher]

Titooing.
Don't want you to Stress about it,
but isn't it "Titooing" about with stuff?

Depends on the "stuff", I guess...

[vifferman]

Unfortunately it seems some students still do this. However, the biggest stress for students is that some of them try to cope working 20 hours a week (quite a few that I have met do 30) and still cope with a full time University load. And then they have a cheek to complain that there is too much course work.
Yeah, well maybe they wouldn't have to do that if the student loan debt wasn't such a weighty problem.
My eldest son is living at home, and even with no board, free food and clothes etc., AND working all weekend in a shitty supermarket job, he still has a horrendous debt - just for course fees!
I reckon that at the very least, tertiary students should receive a benefit to cover their fees, if not the same as the unemployed get for doing nothing.

[James Deuce]

F4U-4, Hmmmmmmm

Silly money? You're talking my language! I'd need a techo to install an internal version, as I don't have any spare external ports...

I'll PM you.

[vifferman]

After 7 years I'm still getting paid to ride around on a motorbike all day and play with computers.

I still can't believe I get paid for doing this.

:apint:
Ya what?!? What sort of a job combines these two, or are you pulling our (collective) leg?

[vifferman]

Titooing. :whistle:

Don't want you to Stress about it,
but isn't it "Titooing" about with stuff?
OK - if you're going to be a pedantrist, it's "tutu-ing". :2guns:

[Hitcher]

OK - if you're going to be a pedantrist, it's "tutu-ing". :2guns:

Pedant, not pedantrist (said a pedant, pedantically)

Pedant = One who pays undue attention to book learning and formal rules.

[vifferman]

Pedant, not pedantrist (said a pedant, pedantically)

Pedant = One who pays undue attention to book learning and formal rules.
Wrong rat! You set off the trap intended for RR!
Obviously you're an ant on foot as well. :Pokey:

[Jackrat]

Worked in a number of very stressfull jobs,stressfull because I worked #1 with heavy machinery then #2 because I worked with people.
Gave it all away six years ago and now I have no real stress at all.
The day starts when I feel like it.The first job is to feed me chooks and me fish, then maybe I go to work if I feel like it,then again I might just go fishing or hunting or just running the dogs up the beach.
My life style means I don't do a lot of things some people do because I can't afford to, but I do a lot of things other people can't because their at work.
My income comes from three part-time jobs that I can do in my own time at my own pace,plus the're all fun if you don't make them work.
I think some of the saddest buggers out there are these people that work hard for a degree just so they can become middle management clones.
I walked away from hundreds of them and have never looked back,now I have it made in the shade thanks.

[Hitcher]

Wrong rat! You set off the trap intended for RR!
Obviously you're an ant on foot as well. :Pokey:

Ooops! RR can take you on over "tutu-ing". Sheesh!

[Big Dog]

My job is stressful, especially when my income is affected by other people in my abscence.

If I get tooo stressed.

Option one: swap jobs with my staff for a day.
two: Sneak on the net for an our.
three: go for a quick blat.
four: play stationm or a good commedy.

98% of my work stress is from staff who ignore the fact that they have a relatively stress free job that pays reasonably well for the level of work / skill required, and take advantage of my good nature, or use labour regulations in ways other than intended to punish me for their imagined hardship.

The other 2% is my pillion complaining to me about how my staff take advantage.

[Big Dog]

Ps. I can offer stress free work. The only stress my staff face is dealing with me before my daily coffee.

My staff can have almost any day they want off if adequate notice is given. My staff know what is expected of them, get more training than they need, and can go home on schedule regardless of business demands. Hours are flexible, and if you require a skill other than the ability to speak english I teach you it.

Shit If I could pay child support + a bike + a home on what I pay
I would demote myself.

[Ms Piggy]

Yeah, well maybe they wouldn't have to do that if the student loan debt wasn't such a weighty problem.
My eldest son is living at home, and even with no board, free food and clothes etc., AND working all weekend in a shitty supermarket job, he still has a horrendous debt - just for course fees!
I reckon that at the very least, tertiary students should receive a benefit to cover their fees, if not the same as the unemployed get for doing nothing.
It's one of the issues that has ALWAYS pissed me off about student allowances. Some students get penalised and not allowed student allowance b/c according to the system their parents earn enough to be able to support them however, if those same students were unemployed the government would allow them to be on the unemployment benefit regardless of their parents income! Where is the logic in that!?? :bash: I came from a single parent family so it never affected me & now I'm a mature student it doesn't affect me either but it just doesn't make sense to me. <_<

My student debt is something I don't really think about but stastically it is more difficult for women to pay off their student debt b/c they are more likely to be the one who stays home when she & her partner decide to have kids. I don't have that worry but being 32 now and 36 by the time I graduate will impact on me being able to get that MV Agusta I dream about :rolleyes:

I am a student that gets stressed at exam & essay time, I dunno why I just do ok! :2guns:

[jrandom]

I don't find my job stressful. All sorts of other shite in my life is stressful, but I'm fortunate enough to enjoy what I do for a crust.

For that matter, I guess I'm pretty much doing what I always wanted to do since I was a wee kiddy thinking about What I Wanted to Be When I Grew Up. Mebbe when I'm a bit more olderer still, I'll want what Jackrat has.

Until then, I'll obey the compulsion to avoid the silence in my mind.

[James Deuce]

Pedant, not pedantrist (said a pedant, pedantically)

Pedant = One who pays undue attention to book learning and formal rules.
I thought it was a lovely made up word!

I done stole it.

[Big Dog]

It's one of the issues that has ALWAYS pissed me off about student allowances.
Nah its the loans that get me... 9years $12,500 later I have finally paid for my $3,500 loan for a course that wasn't worth the paper I wasted on study. Me Bitter?

[KATWYN]

Worked in a number of very stressfull jobs,stressfull because I worked #1 with heavy machinery then #2 because I worked with people.
Gave it all away six years ago and now I have no real stress at all.
The day starts when I feel like it.The first job is to feed me chooks and me fish, then maybe I go to work if I feel like it,then again I might just go fishing or hunting or just running the dogs up the beach.
My life style means I don't do a lot of things some people do because I can't afford to, but I do a lot of things other people can't because their at work.
My income comes from three part-time jobs that I can do in my own time at my own pace,plus the're all fun if you don't make them work.
I think some of the saddest buggers out there are these people that work hard for a degree just so they can become middle management clones.
I walked away from hundreds of them and have never looked back,now I have it made in the shade thanks.

You have probably cracked the secret code to being happy EVERYDAY. Your post reminds me of that neat story of a man sitting on a beach frying a fish he had just caught and was approached by a travelling businessman....

[k14]

It's one of the issues that has ALWAYS pissed me off about student allowances. Some students get penalised and not allowed student allowance b/c according to the system their parents earn enough to be able to support them however, if those same students were unemployed the government would allow them to be on the unemployment benefit regardless of their parents income! Where is the logic in that!?? :bash: I came from a single parent family so it never affected me & now I'm a mature student it doesn't affect me either but it just doesn't make sense to me. <_<

Oops, i lied about saying i never get stressed. That stresses/pisses me off so badly. Apparantly my parents earn enough to pay for all my course and my living costs etc, i feel a tui ad there :brick: they don't give me any money. Yeah maybe they pay for me to come home in the holidays sometimes and don't charge me bored etc when I am home, but that is irreveland imho. The law says that as soon as i am 18 (i think) my parents aren't legally obliged to support me, but this just contradicts that.

I would be better off being on the dole and getting around $150 a week, bullshit i tell you. Don't know why the government doesn't get the fact that if my student loan was lower when I graduate (probably in 10 years or so :bleh: ) I might consider staying in this country and pay them tax etc, but no, I will be practically forced overseas for better, more plentiful and higher paying jobs.

Ahh well, not going to change by me ranting and raving here, just lets hope National takes the universal living allowance into next election again, if they do I can't see any reason that they wouldn't get the vote of virtually all the students in the country, apart from that stoners that is.

My 2c anyway.

[Hitcher]

While I sympathise greatly with students and their significant student loan debts, I would be interested in hearing alternative views as to how tertiary study could/should be funded.

I don't buy the "taxpayer should stump up for the full cost" argument -- on equity grounds if for no other reason.

There's also a related discussion to be had about New Zealand's current obsession with qualifications -- particularly university "degrees" that have little academic rigor and smell of "degree du jour" -- school leavers' obsession with, fashion, film and basket weaving...

But where are the sparkies, chippies, fencing contractors, shearers, mechanics? Does the country have to grind to a halt before something happens to amend this imbalance??

[merv]

I'd like to see a bond arrangement for students. Work in NZ year for year that you study and your debt gets wiped. Then NZ would benefit from the skills learnt. Could be sorted via IRD.

In my day (the 70s) we basically got paid to go to Uni and I appreciated that. Muldoon got himself into power in 1975 partly by promising the tertiary bursary and our income doubled overnight. While at Uni I ran a car and a bike and finished with money in the bank. In comparison I feel sorry for my kids now running up debt.

Back then fees were paid (had to pay 10% fees in 1973 but then it dropped to zip in 1974 courtesy of Labour Govt) and the only people that suffered were those that flunked a year and their fees wouldn't be paid to do the same course twice.

p.s. to me it stinks that just because your parents have a small amount of money you can't be paid an allowance, you have to take a loan instead. There is no equity in that. The students must deserve the equivalent of the dole at least. Why pay someone doing nothing, yet not pay someone doing stuff (i.e. Uni) that will improve them and an opportunity for improving the country?

[Marmoot]

Taking a day off work from time to time helps.

Well, Mr. Zed. I was kinda hoping to hear the word "pray" in your post. I was wrong :eek5:

LoL. Just joking.

For me, just going home and a warm hug from the better half cures the day. :)
Realizing there are other people worse off helps too.

[dangerous]

How many of you KBrs out there have stressful jobs? and how do you cope?

My way is alcohol (sorry) and attending m'bike rallies - the guys-n-chicks there are awsome, they know what I do for a living and yet are the most unjudgemental/supportive/friendly bunch I could wish for, just hanging out for the next rally (Pissed Penguin at Kaka Point south of Dunedin 11th Sept).

I'm on your side believe it or not!!!

Scumdog

Yeah, the rallies are good as is the ride too them, so to answer the question 'riding and water sking' and as I dont ride in winter or ski for that matter then its a long cold streach of the year :weep: :cold:

So my next rally will be the Magpie Madness (Winchester) in November will you be likely to be there??

And as for your last sentence......... we know that, just dont expect the flack to stop :msn-wink: himmm is that bacon I smell :shit:

[Blackbird]

Oops, i lied about saying i never get stressed. That stresses/pisses me off so badly. Apparantly my parents earn enough to pay for all my course and my living costs etc, i feel a tui ad there :brick: they don't give me any money. Yeah maybe they pay for me to come home in the holidays sometimes and don't charge me bored etc when I am home, but that is irreveland imho. The law says that as soon as i am 18 (i think) my parents aren't legally obliged to support me, but this just contradicts that.
.

You're not doing an Arts degree, are you? Maybe that's why your parents aren't funding you, hehe.

Only joking - my daughter has a BA in Psych and frequently reminds me that I said no child of mine would ever do a BA!

Geoff

[Hitcher]

How To Handle Stress

*Jam tiny marshmallows up your nose and try to sneeze them out.
*Use your Mastercard to pay your Visa bill.
*Pop some popcorn without putting the lid on.
*When someone says “Have a nice day!” tell them you have other plans.
*Find out what a frog in a blender really looks like.
*Make a list of the things you have already done.
*Dance naked in front of your pets.
*Thumb through National Geographic and draw underwear on all the natives.
*Go shopping for clothes. Buy everything. Sweat in them. Return them the next day.
*Drive to work in reverse.
*Read the dictionary backwards and look for subliminal messages.
*Start a nasty rumour and see if you recognise it when it gets back to you.
*Bill your doctor for the time you spent in his waiting room.
*Get a box of condoms. Wait in line at the checkout counter and ask the cashier where the fitting rooms are.

[Hitcher]

High stress days


Some useful expressions for those high stress days:

1. Well, aren’t we just a ray of fucking sunshine?
2. Not the brightest crayon in the box now, are we?
3. Do I look like a fucking people person?
4. This isn’t an office. It’s Hell with fluorescent lighting.
5. I pretend to work. They pretend to pay me.
6. You! Off my planet!
7. Practice random acts of intelligence and senseless acts of self-control.
8. I like cats too. Let’s exchange recipes.
9. Did the aliens forget to remove your anal probe?
10. And your cry-baby whiny-arsed opinion would be...
11. How many times do I have to flush before you go away?
12. Aw, did I step on your poor little bitty ego?
13. How do I set a laser printer to stun?
14. I’m not tense, just terribly, terribly alert.
15. When I want your opinion, I’ll give it to you.
16. Earth is full. Go home.

[Kickaha]

I once took transferred to a different job within the company and took a $5200 pay cut per year to reduce my stress level as it was affecting my health and the way I dealt with other people and as far as I was concerned it was well worth it.

Since then I have been working my way back up the company ladder and it's getting to the point where I have come to believe the company car and nice salary just aren't worth it if you no longer enjoy what you are doing.

My current stress management system involves reading,computer games, but mostly racing bikes and trail riding whenever I have the oppurtunity.

[k14]

You're not doing an Arts degree, are you? Maybe that's why your parents aren't funding you, hehe.

Only joking - my daughter has a BA in Psych and frequently reminds me that I said no child of mine would ever do a BA!

Geoff

Don't think you could have offended me more. Wouldn't be having exams if I was doing one of those papers. Seems the only job you get with a degree like that is to teach what you learns, just goes round in circles, lol.

Science actually, majoring in physics, then going on to do electrical engineering.

The best way that I have heard for paying back the student loan is that the PAYE tax you pay when you get out of uni gets deducted off your loan. So then you are kind of paying it back, the money still goes to the government.

I have no problems having to pay around $4000 in tuition fees per year, its the $150 that I have to borrow each week that annoys me. I think it is like $7000 a year or so, and that doesn't mean I get to live in luxury. Just gets me by including bike expenses etc, but it isn't a bad life.

[MikeL]

Wot 'e said.

Also I find a bit of lifting at the gym does absolute wonders. None of this endless running on a treadmill, though.



You can't be serious. Running is the best part. After 5 minutes, you start to feel good. When the endorphins kick in, you're on top of the world. After 30 minutes you're on a high that keeps you going for the rest of the evening.
Whereas pumping iron is just torture. But worth it.
:apumpin:

[MikeL]

High stress days


Some useful expressions for those high stress days:

1. Well, aren’t we just a ray of fucking sunshine?
2. Not the brightest crayon in the box now, are we?
3. Do I look like a fucking people person?
4. This isn’t an office. It’s Hell with fluorescent lighting.
5. I pretend to work. They pretend to pay me.
6. You! Off my planet!
7. Practice random acts of intelligence and senseless acts of self-control.
8. I like cats too. Let’s exchange recipes.
9. Did the aliens forget to remove your anal probe?
10. And your cry-baby whiny-arsed opinion would be...
11. How many times do I have to flush before you go away?
12. Aw, did I step on your poor little bitty ego?
13. How do I set a laser printer to stun?
14. I’m not tense, just terribly, terribly alert.
15. When I want your opinion, I’ll give it to you.
16. Earth is full. Go home.

ROFL.
(But a bit sad, too, when you realize that behind the sophisticated, cynical humour lurks a desperate unhappiness with the world as it is ...)

[bgd]

Not stressful here at the moment - but that all depends on the stage of the current project. I get to ride to and from work and that is a great stress reliever for me. Used to drive - now that really taught me about stress!

[Zed]

Well, Mr. Zed. I was kinda hoping to hear the word "pray" in your post.
I do actually have a few secret weapons that help me with my stress levels Marmoot! :sunny:

[MadDuck]

Well my job wasnt stessful until I invested in the company ...now ! Had a day yesterday the guys all described as a PMS day...oops. Then theres the days I walk in and apologise to my staff before the day starts.

Taking the bike out is the best relief of stress i can come up with. Cant kick the cat anymore or she wont come home...ohh and there is always a quick trip up to the Poor Knights for a scuba dive. If I am really cranky then a cray dive seems to do the trick - hunting and gathering. Nuffin like trying to tear them critters out from under rocks to come home to my pot.

[marty]

well i've just left a pretty stressful job. i didn't leave because of the stress though, even though my work permeated my personal life. there are not many people who get introduced by their occupation, how about the senior sergeant from tauranga who had his house mitre 10'd last week? i left the police as i couldn't see myself pushing paper there for another 25 years, so i went back to engineering, and are now up to armpits in 747's and 767's - what a blast! i am bikeless for another 14 days, so can't use that. i love to get out on my surf ski, or surf board if it's big enough, ride my bmx bike, walk my new puppy, spend time with my family - suddenly i seem to have heaps more time to do that, even though i'm commuting to auckland every day - i am learning to fly though, this has become my new baby. it's not cheap, but i have a goal at the end of it, to fly for a living (basic though it may be...). i looked at a student loan - $65000 over 2 years, or $85000 for a helicopter CPL over 14 months. just couldn't justify 1. the time and 2. the loan hanging over my head. i decided to pay up front for my flying, then if it doesn't work out i don't owe anybody anything (well except the missus an explanation why i blew $35k). it is amazing that the flying schools will charge $65k for a 2 year course that i can do privately for around $35k, in 6 months.

and JD is a great friend to have in moderation.

[Posh Tourer :P]

While I sympathise greatly with students and their significant student loan debts, I would be interested in hearing alternative views as to how tertiary study could/should be funded.

I don't buy the "taxpayer should stump up for the full cost" argument -- on equity grounds if for no other reason.

There's also a related discussion to be had about New Zealand's current obsession with qualifications -- particularly university "degrees" that have little academic rigor and smell of "degree du jour" -- school leavers' obsession with, fashion, film and basket weaving...

But where are the sparkies, chippies, fencing contractors, shearers, mechanics? Does the country have to grind to a halt before something happens to amend this imbalance??

Alternative views? give a universal student allowance that can be supplemented by part time work if necessary, without the allowance decreasing. The allowance doesnt necessarily have to be enough to live on, there may still be a place for the living costs allowance that is graded by parental income, even though I think that this is a ridiculous proposition. The true cost of a degree is reflected in what overseas students pay in fees (as near as I can tell. Maybe uni is making huge profits off them but I dunno). This means that education is still hugely subsidised. Now, I think my degree is cheap.
:offtopic: -or should that be on topic? - Working all holidays and 16-24 hours a week in term time, I have managed to put enough aside to pay my fees (BSc) and save for an OE too. Now that is rather stressful, but I am surviving by having as many activities as I can packed into my day so I have set relaxation times, playing bridge, indoor soccer, squash, and fencing twice a week. Having all of these really helps release stress, especially indoor soccer and squash, as I am good enough to not frustrate myself when i play (unlike bridge and fencing). :offtopic:
The obsession with qualifications seems to be uniquely New Zealand, and we have the highest number of universities per capita in the developed world (or something like that). New Zealand universities are high throughput institutions. Bums on seats and such. When I was looking at doing an exchange in Norwich, I was impressed by the philosophy of the English system. Their huge first year Biology classes are about 150, whereas at Auckland Uni it is 800 (the size of the largest lecture room - and they run 2 streams too). Third year papers run to about 100 students in NZ, whereas they may be 7 or 8 in England. However, the set of papers taken in English Universities is very prescriptive, you dont get to choose the make-up of your degree. I dont agree with the philosophy that degrees are good so more are better, the whole of first year science was a review of seventh form, and I wrote one essay the entire time, that was in geography. Biological Science assessment, due to the huge numbers, was restricted to multichoice and short answers. I never lasted an entire exam until second year when some papers had essays. Twas ridiculously easy to get good marks in.
I think the University scheme should have sharper entrance criteria (similar to those for engineering school and med but not that high). At the moment you have to pass 3 out of 5 bursary subjects and complete the other two to get into a BA or BSc. People would benefit from the reduced obsession with degrees, as they would be less available, worth more but less necessary for many jobs.
:offtopic: I'm currently training to be a park ranger - the theory looked far more interesting than the practical course offered by Nelson Polytech - unit standards in ToW and chansawing, as well as customer service, for the same price per year. :offtopic:
I see many people doing commerce/engineering, not because they like it, but because they believe they will earn money doing it. Weird if you ask me. Why not do a far less expensive apprenticeship for a trade, and earn the same money? Strange focus we have on degrees, probably fed by the universities, and the government, doing things like granting AIT university status (now AUT), for no particular reason.

[phase]

I work on a service desk. Nuff said. Week days are for work and gym, weekends are for clubs, pubs, drugs and parties.

50+ hour weeks, after hours on call roster, endless bitching, endless projects, endless paperwork, endless performance reviews. Come friday night hit it, wake up midday sunday and start again. Wee! :thud:

[MikeL]

i decided to pay up front for my flying, then if it doesn't work out i don't owe anybody anything (well except the missus an explanation why i blew $35k).

Good onya Marty for having a dream and putting it ahead of mere dollars and cents. I had my first flying lesson well over a quarter of a century ago but didn't get far because I foolishly listened to voices of so-called reason (other people's voices but also my own) with all sorts of rationalizations as to why I couldn't afford it. What I lost instead (time, experience, enjoyment, a possible career that I would have loved) is gone forever.
The $35k will never be "blown". It's not a financial investment, it's an investment in yourself, in who and what you are and want to be. Good luck!

[Racey Rider]

Wrong rat! You set off the trap intended for RR!

Phew! (wipes sweat from brow)

(Scurries away with the cheese.) :bleh:

[scumdog]

Yeah, the rallies are good as is the ride too them, so to answer the question 'riding and water sking' and as I dont ride in winter or ski for that matter then its a long cold streach of the year :weep: :cold:

So my next rally will be the Magpie Madness (Winchester) in November will you be likely to be there??

And as for your last sentence......... we know that, just dont expect the flack to stop :msn-wink: himmm is that bacon I smell :shit:

Yep, if I can get the time off I'll be there - along with Mrs S.D., wear a pink plastic pig so know it's you :D

[MikeL]

Alternative views? give a universal student allowance

Absolutely.
What's wrong with tertiary education in this country? Basically, as Posh Tourer said, it's just bums on seats. Half the people sitting bewildered in lecture theatres shouldn't be there. They've been conned into believing it's everyone's right to have a degree. When a B.A. or B.Sc is worth about as much as School Certificate used to be (which should happen, by my calculations, in about 10 years time at the present rate) perhaps we will come to our senses and put a stop to this nonsense. We might even start to think of radical new approaches to vocational training like apprenticeships, polytechnic courses and so on.
BTW if you think I'm joking about the devaluation of qualifications, let me just point out that in the 30-odd years that I have been involved in the education industry (oops, I was about to say "profession"), my considered opinion is that we have slipped behind by about 2 years: the level of rigour in most academic subjects now demanded at Form 7 level is equivalent to what was required 30 years ago in School Certificate.
If we reverted to the original and proper function of universities we could fund tuition fees (not necessarily living expenses) from taxation and student loans would be unnecessary.

[marty]

thanks mike. i know it will be hard work and expensive, and i also listened to the voices of 'reason' when i was doing my apprentiship, watching my mates learn to fly hueys and strikemasters.....i'm a bit behind them now, but i've got plenty of life experience, and i'm keen!

if anyone out there is struggling with trying to figure out what they want to do with their life, i can recommend the book 'The Alchemist' by Paulo Coelho, a book about following your dreams

[Dr Bob]

Yeah, well maybe they wouldn't have to do that if the student loan debt wasn't such a weighty problem.
My eldest son is living at home, and even with no board, free food and clothes etc., AND working all weekend in a shitty supermarket job, he still has a horrendous debt - just for course fees!
I reckon that at the very least, tertiary students should receive a benefit to cover their fees, if not the same as the unemployed get for doing nothing.

But still, everything in balance. I did my entire undergraduate and post graduate degrees under the student loan system (although I did get a scholarship for some of my post grad stuff, I wasn't paying back anything for quite some time). I think that, yes, more money could be available to tertiary students, but on the other hand - the worst sin are the students who flitter away their study right by not completing papers.

Probably the biggest issue though, is where students choose to study. Personally, I could never have afforded to study in Auckland, nor did I really want to. I studied at Waikato, student flats, the Hilly and all that.. Although the grocery bill, electricity etc. wouldn't have been much different, the rent was cheaper, and the parking was free (and I lived just 2km from Uni).

[spudchucka]

The big stress in my job is dealing with people who tell huge lies.
Why do people have to lie---like its a habit
Sounds a lot like my job??

[jrandom]

When a B.A. or B.Sc is worth about as much as School Certificate used to be (which should happen, by my calculations, in about 10 years time at the present rate)

I'd argue that it's already happened. In my experience, only the top one or two percent of B.Sc's out of Auckland are worth giving jobs to. (That's only commenting on math and comp sci majors, though.)

Just having an undergrad degree is no longer a statement of qualification. An 'A' average is, but maybe one day even that will become watered down beyond meaning.

[Omega1]

I work on a IT helpdesk,I find the commut home through rush hour traffic on my Seven great stress relief,

[Milky]

thanks mike. i know it will be hard work and expensive, and i also listened to the voices of 'reason' when i was doing my apprentiship, watching my mates learn to fly hueys and strikemasters.....i'm a bit behind them now, but i've got plenty of life experience, and i'm keen!

if anyone out there is struggling with trying to figure out what they want to do with their life, i can recommend the book 'The Alchemist' by Paulo Coelho, a book about following your dreams
I must say I quite enjoyed reading that when I did, many years ago... I was probably too young and devoid of stressful decisions to gain full benefit from it, but I can see that in the right situations it could be an uplifting book :)

[Milky]

I'd argue that it's already happened. In my experience, only the top one or two percent of B.Sc's out of Auckland are worth giving jobs to. (That's only commenting on math and comp sci majors, though.)

Just having an undergrad degree is no longer a statement of qualification. An 'A' average is, but maybe one day even that will become watered down beyond meaning.
I concur... too many people getting into university waters down the value of a degree. A very large proportion of students simply go to Uni because they dont know anything else - school has been there for 13 years and it becomes a habit. Most of these peoplewould be so much better off just going out into the workforce, trying to find a job somewhere and then later on, if they need it to advance their career, heading back into uni. I would guess that a BA wouldnt be much use to someone who is going to work in clerical or reception type work.
Still, the time at Uni might make it possible for them to figure out what they want to do with their lives. I for one would rather see that happening in schools, with more of an emphasis on developing individuals than preparing them, production line style, for a stint in Uni after they leave. With the numbers of students going through BE this year it will only be a matter of time before that is in the same class as a BA/BSc, and a masters will become the accepted minimum qualification for an 'academic'

[Ms Piggy]

Don't think you could have offended me more. Wouldn't be having exams if I was doing one of those papers. Seems the only job you get with a degree like that is to teach what you learns, just goes round in circles, lol.

:Oi: They have exams, sheesh. :blah:

[jrandom]

With the numbers of students going through BE this year it will only be a matter of time before that is in the same class as a BA/BSc, and a masters will become the accepted minimum qualification for an 'academic'

Uh huh. You got it.

The problem is that nobody leaves high school these days with any 'official' ability to do a job beyond labourer or filing clerk. So they all think they have to get a degree. And the fact is that the world really needs lots of people to do jobs that aren't very well related to your typical academic programme (B.A., B.Sc, etc). But nobody wants to do those jobs, because they believe the hype about the 'tech sector', or they want to be a doctor or lawyer, etc. And nobody wants to feel like the proletariat, we all want to be the upper-middle-class pseudo-elite...

And, of course, the university administration have to maintain the bell curve.

So now we have a huge glut of idiots with C-average LLBs, a huge glut of people with C-average B.Sc's who will never ever contribute to the research side of academia and probably should have gotten trade school diplomas, and the rest of the population goes and gets a C-average B.A. because all the other burger-flippers have them too, these days.

[James Deuce]

Career is bullshit. Career does not equal happiness. Degree does not equal happiness. Lots of money does not equal happiness. What you do for a job is the least impressive thing about you. Unless of course you are part of the lucky less than one percentage point who get a job that doesn't feel like work, and feel guilty getting paid to play for a living.

If getting a degree makes you happy get one. For heavens sake don't enter the tertiary education system with a job goal in mind. You'll be largely disappointed and prevent yourself from discovering a whole raft of alternatives.

I just want our education system to stop attempting to turn out mindless knowledge worker drones. I want parent, and family, and society, and the school system to stop asking 5 year olds what they want to be when they grow up. 10 and 15 year olds too. Because I'm nearly 40 and still have no idea what I will be when I grow up. Studying, writing, riding a motorcycle, playing with my kids, loving my wife, playing drums in a band (in no particular order) all mean more to me than what I do for a living.

A wave of despair washes over me whenever someone asks the inevitable, "What do you do?" as if that defines you entirely. Life is more important than that and you are more important than that.

[Eddieb]

Just having an undergrad degree is no longer a statement of qualification. An 'A' average is, but maybe one day even that will become watered down beyond meaning.

It's happened in other countries. I've worked with Indian contractors and according to them you now need a Ph'D or similiar to get a job as a receptionist or even cleaner in India as the educated population has such a high degree of education.

[jrandom]

Lots of money does not equal happiness.

But not enough money sure as hell equals misery.



Unless of course you are part of the lucky less than one percentage point who get a job that doesn't feel like work, and feel guilty getting paid to play for a living.

(slowly raises hand with guilty expression on face)



... I'm nearly 40 and still have no idea what I will be when I grow up

Some days I wake up and wonder whether the rest of the world has figured out yet that I haven't Bought In. I find it difficult not to occasionally burst into hysterical giggling at the feelings of silliness engendered by my attempts to be Mature and Businesslike on a daily basis.



A wave of despair washes over me whenever someone asks the inevitable, "What do you do?" as if that defines you entirely. Life is more important than that and you are more important than that.

Indeed. I flinch whenever I have to answer that question. I can HEAR the rattle as I land in their psyche's carefully labelled box of preconceptions.

[vifferman]

Because I'm nearly 40 and still have no idea what I will be when I grow up. Studying, writing, riding a motorcycle, playing with my kids, loving my wife, playing drums in a band (in no particular order) all mean more to me than what I do for a living.
Criminy Jim - you sound just like me, except I'm about 6 years older'n you at a guess.
I've made a few 'career' changes along the way. Spent 6 years wasting my time at uni (Chem then EarthSciences), then worked as a farm labourer, then a research technician (vet. surgery, farmwork, computer stuff), then 6 years in a dairy lab, then 3 years as a Systems Manager, then a couple of years in software support, then a couple doing house-husbanding and contract programming, then (groan) the last 5 years doing software testing and tech writing.


A wave of despair washes over me whenever someone asks the inevitable, "What do you do?" as if that defines you entirely. Life is more important than that and you are more important than that.
I don't entirely agree with you there. People (esp. males?) are largely defined by what they do or choose to do with most of their weekdays.

I dunno who I am. I'm married with kids, a motorcyclist (a large part of who I am), play guitar, and I'm a jack of all trades (tiling, painting, plastering, plumbing, electrical, stained glass, carpentry, cabinetry, etc etc.), but sadly master of none. And I despair not because of being pigeon-holed, but because I haven't really found a niche, despite many false starts....

[Big Dog]

A wave of despair washes over me whenever someone asks the inevitable, "What do you do?" as if that defines you entirely. Life is more important than that and you are more important than that.
I agree in totality with the last bit at least. It is a good ice breaker at trade events, conferences etc but I dread that question at social events. I would normally only ask that question of someone else in a social setting if either I was trying to kill an uncomfortable silence or trying to get a guage of the sincerity of earlier statements (eg "Yeah? Why what do you do?).

[Big Dog]

Mind you I probably feel this way because my last couple of jobs were Car Salesman and Thug (bouncer).

[k14]

Considering that I am currently doing a BSc, I disagree with you guys.

The entrance requirements to get into uni are pretty lapse, but they weed out all the retards after the first year. You have to pass all your papers before you can go onto second year and those papers aren't a walk in the park. You have to know what you are doing if you are going to pass them.

In my first year classes there were about 150 or so in all of them, now there are 60 in my biggest class and 15 in my smallest. I highly doubt that anyone graduating with a BSc has just cruised through without learning anything on the way, let alone BE. My mate who is in final year doing electrical engineering has at minimum 40 hour weeks and around project/test/exam time up to 80 hours, don't think that is an easy option.

I do agree that the requirements to get into uni are too low, but the people that just scrape into uni get weeded out in the first year and then either repeat papers or drop out. I don't have a problem with this, cause they are subsidising my uni fees. It costs the same weather or not they have 200 or 300 enrolled in a paper, or maybe 2% more.

As for jrandom saying that someone with a C- average BSc going to trade school, what degree do you have?? Someone that graduates with a BSc regardless weather they have a C- or A+ average have definately got too much brains to be an electrican or a plumber.

[Drunken Monkey]

I don't buy the "taxpayer should stump up for the full cost" argument -- on equity grounds if for no other reason.

There's also a related discussion to be had about New Zealand's current obsession with qualifications -- particularly university "degrees" that have little academic rigor and smell of "degree du jour" -- school leavers' obsession with, fashion, film and basket weaving...

But where are the sparkies, chippies, fencing contractors, shearers, mechanics? Does the country have to grind to a halt before something happens to amend this imbalance??

With you around Hitcher, I don't even need to post...


...and your debt gets wiped...

That's not fair on those of us who busted our nuts 55 hours a week during the holidays so we could study & graduate without a loan (ok I still had help form the olds too). Giving someone $$$ then wiping off ANY amount of the debt is unfair on those who didn't have a loan in the first place - it's basically giving someone free money because they had less to start with (probably cos they weren't flipping burgers/scanning groceries/stacking shelves like the rest of us). A loan is a loan, not a free ride.
If you want to make sure student loans get paid back and the economy benefits from loaning money to it's students, introduce a 'student loans on surrender of passport' rule. However, that's precisely NOT the kind of country I want to live in...


As for stress releif? I'm self-employed, so I usually just chuck what I'm doing in for a little while and do something else, take a long lunch, drive around in circles, chat to a customer at the drinks fountain, anything that takes little thought and isn't what I was doing beforehand...
(my customers need me too much to go elsewhere, it's a nice place to be... (*ahem* >> joke)
Hobbies include riding, shooting, and other activities, but I haven't got to the point where I _have_ to do a hobby to releive stress. Work for works sake, hobbies for hobbies sake.

[Drunken Monkey]

Considering that I am currently doing a BSc, I disagree with you guys.

The entrance requirements to get into uni are pretty lapse, but they weed out all the retards after the first year. You have to pass all your papers before you can go onto second year and those papers aren't a walk in the park. You have to know what you are doing if you are going to pass them.

In my first year classes there were about 150 or so in all of them, now there are 60 in my biggest class and 15 in my smallest. I highly doubt that anyone graduating with a BSc has just cruised through without learning anything on the way, let alone BE. My mate who is in final year doing electrical engineering has at minimum 40 hour weeks and around project/test/exam time up to 80 hours, don't think that is an easy option.

I do agree that the requirements to get into uni are too low, but the people that just scrape into uni get weeded out in the first year and then either repeat papers or drop out. I don't have a problem with this, cause they are subsidising my uni fees. It costs the same weather or not they have 200 or 300 enrolled in a paper, or maybe 2% more.

As for jrandom saying that someone with a C- average BSc going to trade school, what degree do you have?? Someone that graduates with a BSc regardless weather they have a C- or A+ average have definately got too much brains to be an electrican or a plumber.

pfffttt...first year was always a walk in the bloody park. Spent more time at uni club or shads or playing 500 or president/bastard in the common room than I did in the lecture theatres. Second year sorted out the men from the boys (well, mostly kicked out the men and the boys and left the studious ladies...)

And don't be so mean to electrician's and plumbers! Some of them are smarter than you think...certainly smarter than some of the dead beats that started when I started and took 2 or more years extra to graduate...

People have got to stop treating uni as a trade/career school. Take some extra cirricular activities (namely philosophy (aka drinking)), do a foreign language, smoke some pot (but don't inhale!), take some arts papers if you're in science or science papers if you're in arts, participate in tourney, go on a road trip, keep the pub crawl alive and put the _stunt_ back into 'capping stunt'! University is there to broaden your horizons, not stick you in a job! Today's students are so fricken square...

[James Deuce]

People have got to stop treating uni as a trade/career school. Take some extra cirricular activities (namely philosophy (aka drinking)), do a foreign language, smoke some pot (but don't inhale!), take some arts papers if you're in science or science papers if you're in arts, participate in tourney, go on a road trip, keep the pub crawl alive and put the _stunt_ back into 'capping stunt'! University is there to broaden your horizons, not stick you in a job! Today's students are so fricken square...

EXACTLY - problem is you can't avoid vocational degreees now. Languages have gone. Russian Lit. has gone. Very soon there will be no books in the libraries!!!!???. My M. Comms (IT) programme, which is mostly History, Social Sciences, Research, and Communication theory is being turned into a management degree - (pause for breath) (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHH)
That traditional repositry of slackers, the double major in Psych and History will very soon be no more.

Why? So the government can say they are producing "knowledge workers", and other trained individuals that have skills relevant to a knowledge economy.

I WANT A BLOODY PLUMBER THAT TURNS UP ON TIME. I've seen enough little Julian's with B.Com degrees, and enough little Jessica's with LLBs to last a bloody lifetime. And can any of them fix my toilet? NO!

[Posh Tourer :P]

The entrance requirements to get into uni are pretty lapse, but they weed out all the retards after the first year. You have to pass all your papers before you can go onto second year and those papers aren't a walk in the park. You have to know what you are doing if you are going to pass them.

I highly doubt that anyone graduating with a BSc has just cruised through without learning anything on the way

I do agree that the requirements to get into uni are too low, but the people that just scrape into uni get weeded out in the first year and then either repeat papers or drop out. I don't have a problem with this, cause they are subsidising my uni fees. It costs the same weather or not they have 200 or 300 enrolled in a paper, or maybe 2% more.

As for jrandom saying that someone with a C- average BSc going to trade school, what degree do you have?? Someone that graduates with a BSc regardless weather they have a C- or A+ average have definately got too much brains to be an electrican or a plumber.

Firstly, what a waste of a first year. That was my impression of first year BSc. Why waste the time for me, at $4000 a year, to weed out people who could have been weeded out by entrance criteria

Secondly, a BSc would mean that you learn something, yes, I'm not saying that it is easy all the way through and you dont learn, just that more learning should be done earlier ie in high school in some cases. The amount of revision in each year could be reduced. Some people would have to resit years or fail them, but why should others have to pay $4000 a year for a degree because we want everyone to at least pass School Cert?

Thirdly, less people = less costs - less facilities required - less staff, less infrastructure. Sure, there would be some subsidisation of fees, but I suspect that the subsidisation would be less than $4000 over your degree, the cost of a wasted first year.

Fourthly, ever tried to be an electrician or a plumber? Doing good work requires more thought than you seem to give credit for. My dad, for instance has a BSc in politics and half a MSc. He was a company director, but spent the past 30 years as an engineer and welder. He is very intelligent, enough to get honours/A pass etc etc 160+ IQ etc etc wank wank. That shows in the quality of his work. I have tried to do some electrics problem solving on the beemer and that was bloody hard work, as was the rest of the process of building it. Not just physical work but also mental work. Want to be a professional auto electrician? not me, too much mental exercise... I guess I'd get used to it after a while though.
The bonus of doing some physical work as a job, I find, is that I sleep better, feel healthier and more alert and eat better. There are many benefits to being a tradesman or something similar. This is why I opted to train as a Park Ranger rather than an engineer or a computer technician. Get out there and enjoy my job, and do some physical work too. (no need for a gym membership for me...). I did the BSc because I wanted to learn the theory of ecological restoration, and that wasnt available anywhere else. Could have done unit standards for use of chainsaw etc etc but didnt. Wouldnt mind at some point perhaps getting a diploma in agriculture. I have spent a little time on a farm, and to be a good farmer, not only do you need intelligence, you need to be multiskilled.
There are lots of bonuses and positive attributes to being a tradesman, just because you dont have the bit of paper degree (wank wank) doesnt mean it doesnt require a lot of intelligence to become a good one. I do think, from what i have heard, that some technical courses do start ata very basic level, but is this also a symptom of the obsession with degrees? perhaps if that subsided, Bursary would be decent enough for a labourer, without having to get a diploma as well. Then the diplomas could be geared a bit higher.

[k14]

Oops, I wasn't saying that tradesmen are dumb, (my dad used to be one aswell) I was just trying to say that they require different kind of minds and if someone that can understand physics/chemistry/computer science to a university level is probably not suited to be a tradesman.

[marty]

It's happened in other countries. I've worked with Indian contractors and according to them you now need a Ph'D or similiar to get a job as a receptionist or even cleaner in India as the educated population has such a high degree of education.
yeah but at what quality? i have seen some indian engineers who have NO CLUE WHATSOEVER.

i tried to get a position with easyjet (UK cheap airline), they train their new pilots in auckland (from zero time) then at about 250hrs put them into the RH seat of a 737. they are bonded to easyjet for 5 years, or they can pay them out. i was turned down, and in a chance conversation with the cheif instructor (who lives in cambridge, and our kids are in the same class!) i found that they are taking PhD or MA students, and that it is easier to get into the RAF!! he reckons though that most of them have zero personality, have never been out of the school environment, and that they should go on a tramp thru nepal or nigeria for a reality check.

i've been at the air nz training school for the last few days. the majority of new trainees are from overseas - 30% are kiwis i reckon. where is everyone? at friggin uni? massey run the engineering degree course, but the trainees are getting paid by air nz at the same time. avionics and aircraft engineers are in huge demand, starting on $25 an hour, get work anywhere in the world in a flash, $900 return to the UK in business class, it's a rorte really

[jrandom]

I was just trying to say that they require different kind of minds and if someone that can understand physics/chemistry/computer science to a university level is probably not suited to be a tradesman.

This post of yours set my flamethrower all the way to 'max', but I don't really have time to make a decent response tonight.

I may reply tomorrow morning... you might want to put your asbestos longjohns on when you get out of bed. <_<

[James Deuce]

This post of yours set my flamethrower all the way to 'max', but I don't really have time to make a decent response tonight.

I may reply tomorrow morning... you might want to put your asbestos longjohns on when you get out of bed. <_<

I'll bring the extra tanks of flammable stuff for the flamethrower.

[k14]

This post of yours set my flamethrower all the way to 'max', but I don't really have time to make a decent response tonight.

I may reply tomorrow morning... you might want to put your asbestos longjohns on when you get out of bed. <_<

I wasn't trying to piss anyone off, just airing my opinion, be gentle . :Oops:

[dangerous]

Oops, I wasn't saying that tradesmen are dumb, (my dad used to be one aswell) I was just trying to say that they require different kind of minds and if someone that can understand physics/chemistry/computer science to a university level is probably not suited to be a tradesman.

Right O ya little shit, thats the last time this tradesman helps to get that black arsed hairdryer going of yours :Pokey:

Be ready at 6:45am tomorrow fella cos we are going to put this theroy of yours to the test. You are comming to work with me we start at 7am and finish at 5pm you will first set out a Skillion exposed roof at 18* with a dorma Butanol roof attached at 5* you will use the 345 method to sq the roof plain up if you x the seat cut by the pitch and -12% you will have the hip plumb cut and you will be carrying the timbers up 3 storys by yourself and if this is done by 10 you may have smoko with the other boys (you will also clean the bog out and put the jug on (prehaps not in that order) :bleh: :rolleyes: :msn-wink:

ps: dont expect to get paid either

[Posh Tourer :P]

This post of yours set my flamethrower all the way to 'max', but I don't really have time to make a decent response tonight.

I may reply tomorrow morning... you might want to put your asbestos longjohns on when you get out of bed. <_<

And something extra to pretect your manhood after the asbestos melts, by the looks of it.

[k14]

Right O ya little shit, thats the last time this tradesman helps to get that black arsed hairdryer going of yours :Pokey:

Be ready at 6:45am tomorrow fella cos we are going to put this theroy of yours to the test. You are comming to work with me we start at 7am and finish at 5pm you will first set out a Skillion exposed roof at 18* with a dorma Butanol roof attached at 5* you will use the 345 method to sq the roof plain up if you x the seat cut by the pitch and -12% you will have the hip plumb cut and you will be carrying the timbers up 3 storys by yourself and if this is done by 10 you may have smoko with the other boys (you will also clean the bog out and put the jug on (prehaps not in that order) :bleh: :rolleyes: :msn-wink:

ps: dont expect to get paid either

Sorry, got exams to study for :whistle:

Don't worry, I have worked with tradesman before for a couple of months, 6 to 7ish for my holiday job. It was great to get outside and do stuff and I didn't have a clue what I was doing without them, got to do all the "good" jobs aswell.

I'm sure jrandom is warming up his flame thrower now, but I wasn't meaning to offend anyone, it just came out the wrong way, sorry if i did. :bye:

[dangerous]

Sorry, got exams to study for :whistle:
I'm sure jrandom is warming up his flame thrower now, but I wasn't meaning to offend anyone, it just came out the wrong way, sorry if i did. :bye:

Your SORRY well ya bloody well should be to....... :msn-wink:
No need to be mate dident bother me at all, just saw a chance to wind ya up was actually waiting for a sinentific (see cant even spell it) reply that would have me stuffed but hay the offer still stands aye, might pay ya though

[merv]

As for stress relief you probably won't hear much from me for the next week as I've managed to score a conference trip to Darwin, leaving tomorrow - yippee! Weather forecast for tomorrow over there is 26 deg and 40% humidity - beautiful. Gotta go see the new railway eh! Oh and eat and drink and lounge around in the sun and maybe listen to the odd paper at the conference. Nice and cruisy.

[MikeL]

As for stress relief you probably won't hear much from me for the next week as I've managed to score a conference trip to Darwin, leaving tomorrow - yippee! Weather forecast for tomorrow over there is 26 deg and 40% humidity - beautiful. Gotta go see the new railway eh! Oh and eat and drink and lounge around in the sun and maybe listen to the odd paper at the conference. Nice and cruisy.

Hmmm, 26 deg, 40% humidity, cruisy job... Sounds almost too good to be true.
Oh yes, don't forget you'll be surrounded by Australians...

[Ms Piggy]

Career is bullshit. Career does not equal happiness. Degree does not equal happiness. Lots of money does not equal happiness. What you do for a job is the least impressive thing about you. Unless of course you are part of the lucky less than one percentage point who get a job that doesn't feel like work, and feel guilty getting paid to play for a living.

If getting a degree makes you happy get one. For heavens sake don't enter the tertiary education system with a job goal in mind. You'll be largely disappointed and prevent yourself from discovering a whole raft of alternatives.

I just want our education system to stop attempting to turn out mindless knowledge worker drones. I want parent, and family, and society, and the school system to stop asking 5 year olds what they want to be when they grow up. 10 and 15 year olds too. Because I'm nearly 40 and still have no idea what I will be when I grow up. Studying, writing, riding a motorcycle, playing with my kids, loving my wife, playing drums in a band (in no particular order) all mean more to me than what I do for a living.

A wave of despair washes over me whenever someone asks the inevitable, "What do you do?" as if that defines you entirely. Life is more important than that and you are more important than that.

People in general do seem obssessed in putting people in boxes & attaching labels on them. The whole "What do you do?" question is a pretty loaded question and it's sad that people define people by their job.

Ti's also said that nowadays a BA is worthless really - well that's the banter I hear all the time. I am really enjoying Uni but like k14 I may end up going overseas. I mean a career in social work isn't a casreer you go into for the money but like I said earlier I'll be 36 when I graduate and...well not much chance of making enough dosh for getting debt free.

[Devil]

Heh, well I can say that right now, money would fix every problem I have :)
When the problems are gone, then I can work on the happiness. And its usually these problems that send me from happy --> grumpy asshole

[MacD]

Ti's also said that nowadays a BA is worthless really - well that's the banter I hear all the time.

Just ignore comments like that. You'll be surprised how many employers understand that a BA provides skills in critical thinking, research and analysis. Unfortunately these are becoming lost skills at Universities as the trend is to provide vocational courses (ie: training as opposed to education).

[vifferman]

Oops, I wasn't saying that tradesmen are dumb, (my dad used to be one aswell) I was just trying to say that they require different kind of minds and if someone that can understand physics/chemistry/computer science to a university level is probably not suited to be a tradesman.
You may not have been trying to offend anyone, but you've obviously bought into the whole "If you're smart, go to university" bullshit.
Someone that can understand physics/chem/computer science is EXACTLY the kind of person we need getting into the trades. I've dealt with some VERY clever cookies who were electricians or plumbers, and some who were not at all smart, and who couldn't think outside the square, and who made a cockup of a job that required thinking of a novel solution.
The guy who worked on our alarm system was VERY bright, and had no tertiary qualifications at all. Similarly my son rates in the top 1-2% of the population for IQ and cognitive abilities, and knows more about computers, electronics and software than most of the coneheads who work at the software house I'm employed at. He's working in a shop, and is very unlikely to do tertiary studies. Why not? Because he teaches himself, reading shitloads of esoteric and complicated stuff on the internet, and there is not a lot he could learn at university, so he'd probably die of boredom, just trying to get a degree to 'prove' he had brains, in order to be able to do the same stuff he can already do for some prospective employer. What an absolute waste of time, and what a stupid system that values pieces of paper more than demonstrable skills and knowledge.
On the other hand, my eldest son is currently doing the third year of his pharmacy degree, is doing well, loves it, and it IS the right path for him, because he absolutely blossoms in that sort of environment. And he wants to be a pharmacist or pharmacologist, and this is the only way he can get there.

[MikeL]

I have 3 brothers. Of the 4 boys in the family, the eldest and the youngest left school at 15 or 16, one with no qualification at all, the other with U.E. One went into a trade and has over the years acquired property assets that have left him comfortably well off, as well as having had a relatively stress-free life. The other went into business, starting as office boy. He has just retired after selling his campervan business and walked away with many millions of dollars. The middle two, myself included, went to university, acquired degrees, diplomas and what have you, and ended up as teachers. On the material plane we are far worse off than the other two. On the other hand success in life is not only to be measured in dollars...
For me, going to university was still the right choice. I am grateful to this country for giving me the opportunity to do so. My background is solid working class. I was the first in at least four generations that I know of to have a university education. The political, social and economic policies of the 60s and 70s might be unfashionable now, but we got some things right.

[Marmoot]

Funny...I have a Masters degree and I WISH I were a tradesperson instead.
It seems degree is nothign nowadays and tradesperson can get better employment opportunities and/or living.

When I graduated 2 years ago, I hold a Masters Degree and while chatting with this shopkeeper she was saying "Oh you must really be Something" and I gave her a look of "what? ye'r pulling my leg. Gaining the degree taught me nothing useful, was a walk in the park and did not get me any improvement in job opportunities". So yeah I'd say degrees mean sh*t all to employers nowadays.

Not that I say degrees are useless, coz now I realized that while learning the University taught you 'thinking process'. Not ideas itself, but how to develop an idea and analytical thinking skill.

But, now I'm an employer myself, I find degree'd people to be too handful nowadays. Young graduates whine all the time about pay being not enough, and they are so up their nose on attitude thinking they are the best in the world when they couldn't even mind the minor details properly. Not all of course, but a lot of them started out begging for a job and after 2 months proved to be too hot to handle. And with all these law on employee protections and big payouts set out by the government, it is not easy to be an employer at all (just about everything you do can get you sued). Thus now I have quite an adverse view on degree'd people.

The other thing about degree is, it does not put you into the correct place most of the time. When I entered Uni, I was young and naive and did not know what I want to do. By the time I finished my degree, it is too late to startover to learn something else, so I ended up trapped in the wrong qualification. I couldn't get the job I want because "I do not have the qualification for it", but I do not want to do the job I'm 'qualified' in.

All in all, it's just my opinion. At the end of the day, University teaches you something. Not directly useful, but something nonetheless. But it is certainly not "really something" anymore nowadays :(

Honestly, I wish I were a Firefighter :)

[MacD]

By the time I finished my degree, it is too late to startover to learn something else, so I ended up trapped in the wrong qualification.

One thing you learn as you get older is that it's never too late to startover. I retrained at 30+ years of age. Another 10 years later I'm considering a further change. It really comes down to how much you're willing to put up with in order to change. Usually a big drop in income (initially) and maybe a student loan to deal with. However if you went into a trade you'd be earning as you learnt which isn't a bad thing.

[NordieBoy]

Ya what?!? What sort of a job combines these two, or are you pulling our (collective) leg?

I fix computers.
Mainly home pc's - at peoples homes.
Based in Nelson and coverage is from the Rai to Golden Bay and through to Tapawera.
3-6 jobs per day.

I ride either...
http://motorsport.nelson.geek.nz/mybikes/nordwest/20030103/showimage.rvt?image=soufi-crashbobbins2.jpg
or
http://motorsport.nelson.geek.nz/mybikes/nordwest/showimage.rvt?image=tbu-givi.jpg

Depending on the weather/backroads/gravel/speed humps etc.

Whangamoas, Rai Saddle, Takaka Hill, Moutere, Dovedale, Jacobs Ladder, Kerrs Hill, Motueka Valley (West Bank if you like gravel) - All fun.

:cool:

[Milky]

Hell I would have done a trade apprenticeship if they actualy catered for the smart ones... but FFS I am not going to be stuck with a bunch of guys/gals who scraped through school cert/sixthform/bursary with a few passes. I would get terribly bored, and most likely end up hating myself for choosing something that didnt stretch me academically.
I would love to see the trades get more emphasis in school, and the appeal widend to include those who are actually reasonably capable. I have a longtime friend who is doing an electrical appreticeship - he got through bursary with about 230 I think. Correct me if I am wrong TS - and the gearing of the course is slow for him, so I would shudder to think what it is like for your average/above average student.
I would much rather be earning money while I am learning, but the appeal of going to Uni was greater as it gave me more options in the future... It would be nice to see more companies - which I am now aware of, having been at uni for a while - getting out there earlier and searching for apprentices actively, helping people through the learning process, and stimulating some return of service etc. I did try to get a joband training in this way, but was rejected because the people concerned thought I was too bright for the situation/coworkers/proposed training path.
The prospect of $30k in student loan is a big negative, but with the options that were presented to me at the time, it turned out as the best option. I love what I am doing at the moment, so hopefully that will continue through my studies and into the workforce.
On the subject of student loans and allowances, it would be nice to see a universal student allowance, or at least a relaxation of the criteria regarding parents income. This present scheme does nothing for the student who goes to uni against/without the support of their parents. A fact that gets bandied around alot is the one of students borrowing to live... Not something I think we should be encouraging as a country, and the allowance changes would lessen this dependency. It would also make life a little easier for those students who are doing a degree that requres a large chunk of their time. I have talked to 3rd/4th year engineers here at UoA and many say it is a 60 hour a week job to complete assignments, doing all night stints, weekends and more to keep up with the workload. I guess it depends how much care you put into your study and whether you are trying for first class honours, but that is still a workload which doesnt allow for much earning of money... Ah the joys which await me......

[jrandom]

I have talked to 3rd/4th year engineers here at UoA and many say it is a 60 hour a week job to complete assignments, doing all night stints, weekends and more to keep up with the workload.

Yup, it is. But that's why BEs from Auckland are still good currency in the job market (overseas, too). A 'B' or better grade average proves that you've got a modicum of intelligence, but more importantly, enough balls to stick to something and do a good job of it.

What you actually *learn* there is interesting stuff, but it's not the be-all and end-all and often it only covers 5% of what you'll end up doing for a living. These days, I tend to view undergrad degrees as 'certificates of non-laziness'. Degrees that can be coasted through don't certify non-laziness, hence they are worthless. QED.

[jrandom]

I wasn't trying to piss anyone off, just airing my opinion, be gentle . :Oops:

I woke up in a vaguely lazy zen-like state this morning, so no flamage directed at your sorry arse has eventuated. The thing is, though - if you *had* been intentionally yanking chains, it wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest. It was your naively honest little exercise in self-glorification that annoyed me.

Anyway, I think the other guys who've responded to this thread have addressed things pretty well. One day, you might come to realise that it's impossible to box people up like that. Also, you might not have noticed, but you're coming across as an unpleasant, up-himself git.

[Marmoot]

One thing you learn as you get older is that it's never too late to startover. I retrained at 30+ years of age. Another 10 years later I'm considering a further change. It really comes down to how much you're willing to put up with in order to change. Usually a big drop in income (initially) and maybe a student loan to deal with. However if you went into a trade you'd be earning as you learnt which isn't a bad thing.

True enough, MacD. But, since I am talking for the fact at the moment, I cannot afford any income drop whatsoever due to me being lower working class (which the government tax to death without giving anything back).
Being in that class, my saving is minuscule and I am forced to plan daily life very (read: VERY) carefully as not to overspend. Thus, going back to learning means going back to dependency (which: I do not have anything to depend upon), and hence impossible.

Let's face it: being sort of at the middle class is not easy in this country of taxation and benefits. The rich can afford extra tax, it matters none for them. The poor gets the benefits, helps them out especially with this new government give-out. The middle class get stuck in the middle.

[MacD]

True enough, MacD. But, since I am talking for the fact at the moment, I cannot afford any income drop whatsoever due to me being lower working class (which the government tax to death without giving anything back).

Sure, it depends very much on your obligations such as children or other dependents. By the way if you think you don't get anything back from the government in NZ I suggest trying to live on the minimum wage in somewhere like the US.


Being in that class, my saving is minuscule and I am forced to plan daily life very (read: VERY) carefully as not to overspend. Thus, going back to learning means going back to dependency (which: I do not have anything to depend upon), and hence impossible.

It may mean going into debt which is what I did. The question is whether that debt is worth it to you, either in improved earning capacity in the future or in increased personal satisfaction. I don't know you so I can't comment on your personal situation, but it seems there are quite a few people on this board who have taken steps to change their lives at some time or other which may help you think about what options are available to you?