To hang your ass off your seat or not?

[mynameis]

Is the question. I got told once; I was too stiff and lacked proper movement/ right motion when cornering which apparently wouldn’t allow you to take corners faster or lean into it more to take it faster.

So I took that on board and started practising moving my ass, sticking my knee out and head and elbow movement proportionally.

Got into me so much that I’ve now started doing this a lot even on 50 k build up areas and I feel much more comfortable doing it as opposed to sitting rigid on the seat.

Again I recently got told not to bother doing that especially in 50 k area and that it makes a slight difference in 70 80 100 k zone obviously bearing in mind the speed at which you’re riding.

Now I do understand and realise there are few factors which affect the above like road condition, how acute the bend is, your speed, your skill, track or out commuting and so on which will determine if it’s beneficial or not.

My main concern is though how would I clearly distinguish if hanging off the seat does indeed significantly help me take the corners faster? Without just a blatant answer like “don’t you see them do it in MotoGP”. I have gone out and tried doing both on the same roads and to be perfectly honest I can’t really tell if I am going any faster or leaning more while taking the corners or not but hanging off does feel more comfortable now.

[Big Dave]

Alvin - I strongly urge you to get you questioning arse into one of these courses
www.rrrs.org.nz
and they will guide you through countersteering, leaning and where to get your weight.
Then they will let you go hard at it on a disused part of Whenuapi Air Field.

The short answer is 'It depends on how fast you are going.'

The faster you are travelling the closer to the apex of the corner you can get your mass the better - but there is a point of decreasing return with less velocity and countersteering becomes better.

google countersteering - there are heaps of references.

[Pwalo]

I can't really see how hanging off the bike is going to help you on the street, especially at quasi-legal speeds. Smooth is the key to road riding.

You can shift your weight without sliding your backside off the bike, just by lowering your shoulder into a turn. Probably the most important skill you can learn is to counter steer, but even this you should only have to do gently on the road.

I'd suggest that what you are trying is more appropriate to the track. Perhaps you should give Dig Dave's idea a go.

[Lou Girardin]

You may think hanging off in suburban streets looks cool, it doesn't. It's the bike equivalent of wearing a cap backwards and sitting on the floor of your rice racer. What it does do, is place you in the wrong position should you need to take evasive action mid-corner. Racers do it because they know every corner that's coming up and position themselves accordingly. If little Sebastian runs out in front of you when you're hanging off the left of the bike and you need to veer right, you and he are in deep shit.

[Quasievil]

You may think hanging off in suburban streets looks cool, it doesn't. It's the bike equivalent of wearing a cap backwards and sitting on the floor of your rice racer. What it does do, is place you in the wrong position should you need to take evasive action mid-corner. Racers do it because they know every corner that's coming up and position themselves accordingly. If little Sebastian runs out in front of you when you're hanging off the left of the bike and you need to veer right, you and he are in deep shit.

Exactly what he said, no need for it on the road, moving around on your bike in the twisties is all good, I ride better this way, but (not that you say this) knee down style on the road will get ya in a crash farily quickly.
On the road I have never had my knee down, its just not needed, on the track I get my knee down all the time, not from trying to either just the lean angles are so much greater.

[FROSTY]

dude I can show you pictures of guys at insane lean angles who are sitting bum firmly planted on seat. I cant remember my last ONROAD knee down experience
At your level of experience dude FORGET about your mates advice.
Relax-- forget about body position.
Theres heaps of other things to think about before worrying about that detail

[Bend-it]

Good point Lou... I had read some of the cornering tips in Bike and was trying it out at a hammerhead on the way home... Found that I took it at the same speed but used less of the road, so theoretically could have gone faster and used the whole road...

HOWEVER, once I'd shifted my weight off my bum, I was committed to the line, and would have been tricky changing my line mid-corner (maybe it was just noobiness :Punk: ).

Just like driving, I guess there's a different skillset required between road and track biking...

[beyond]

Some real good comments, especially from Lou and Quasi.

You aren't on a bike that suffers from ground clearance issues unless your suspension is so soft it's compressing right down under load when cornering.

Knee down riding is ok for the track but risky on the road. You need to know every corner as Lou pointed out. But, some people try to get their knee down on every corner and end up getting in your way, when you are still in your seat. It becomes more show than technique as they are too busy trying to get their knee down, they end up slowing things up.

Getting the arse of the seat without the knee down, is a different story.
On my bike (1400) in high speed sweepers and real tight bends, my pegs touch down, then the side stand and then the main stand, which kinda upsets your grip somewhat :( So, I need to hang off the bike, without my knee down, in order to stay with the guys on sports bikes, when moving fast.

This serves several things. You can take a corner faster as your lean angle is less for a given speed over staying in your seat. This means you touch down later, can corner faster and keep things more stable. i.e. I know a nice sweeper that I can take at 120kmh sitting on my seat and the pegs are just touching the tarmac. Hanging off the bike, I can take the same corner at 135kmh before the pegs touch down.

It is also beneficial to get your arse off the seat in the wet. This means the bike stays more upright for the same cornering speed and means less chance of a sideways slideout.

Forget it around town.

[Quasievil]

I remember well my first knee down experience, it was at a manfeild on my 636, I was intent on getting my knee down and through Higgins I tried and tried, but just couldnt, I just forgot about it after two track sessions, the third session I just concentrated on lines and power and braking. and guess what....................through Higgins I had my knee down !!!!!!!!! it was a awesome moment, for me anyway, I was so happy about that I knew I could do it lap after lap, you know what? next lap I couldnt do it.
Point is relax focus on power, brakes and lines and smoothness, then it will come to you, If you try It probably wont happen, or you will look like a Knee poser (you will look dum).

Thing I am working on with my riding at the moment (on the track) is my head position, I find if I lead more with my head ie hanging my head out watching where Im going (not where Ive been) I find I am alot smoother in the corners. After watching GP last week I see alot of the riders doing the same thing, just a small thing but actually makes me better in the corners

[roogazza]

I often wonder what guys think while they are trying to hang off and an old fart on a Bandit slips by and disappears !!!! ????
Why even bother trying to smash your knee into the road, I should imagine it would hurt ? G.

[mynameis]

Alvin - I strongly urge you to get you questioning arse into one of these courses
www.rrrs.org.nz
and they will guide you through countersteering, leaning and where to get your weight.
Then they will let you go hard at it on a disused part of Whenuapi Air Field.

The short answer is 'It depends on how fast you are going.'



Hey Bid Dave - Cheers for that, read through it sounds like a reasonable course especially if they are focusing on counter steering and cornering plus it's close to home :)



You can shift your weight without sliding your backside off the bike, just by lowering your shoulder into a turn. Probably the most important skill you can learn is to counter steer, but even this you should only have to do gently on the road.


Pwalo - I agree with you there but perhaps I wasn't clear in my initial post, I don't really stick my ass out completely all the time but I tend to do it often now. With the subject of counter steering which I know has been raised on KB a million times but doesn't that happen naturally and sub consciously without you realising it most of the times?

[craigs288]

Im only 75kg and my bike is 220-ish and I find it makes a big difference even to move off to the side just a little. But only going at open road speeds. Under about 70kmh I find it is pointless.
If you find some quiet stretch of road with some nice corners you can play around with varying amounts of hanging off the bike.
I found I can get around some corners with the bike just about upright but with me as far off the side as possible.

[Beemer]

I am very disappointed that Hitcher hasn't responded and said that hanging any kind of large animal like an ass off your seat would be not only potentially dangerous (can you imagine the weight?), but more than likely would earn you a severe reprimand from the SPCA. My advice is, don't do it. :nono:

[R6_kid]

Watch me when you come out for a ride next week dude. The physics of it mean that having your weight inboard does make the bike slightly more stable, and in some cases it makes it turn the same radius corner with less lean (talking like 2-3deg).

The most beneficial things i've found for high speed riding are weight over the forks as much as possible (get it forward and low), and leaning into the corner, looking for the exit, but not with my knee out.

Its a choice of style, but going for knee down on the road is asking for more trouble than its worth.

Compare the attached pic of 'The Doctor' with me in my profile pic, we're leaning off the same amount, he's just going a fuck load faster and leaning it over more.

[skelstar]

I tried moving off my seat through some twisties a while back and immediately wondered why I hadnt done it more. I felt I had much more confidence through the corner and have tried to amke it a habit since. Im arguably not going any faster, but Im sure Im smoother and, again, more confident.

Doing this in suburbia is a bit silly though. Cant change your line as easy, and I like using my back brake.

[mynameis]

What it does do, is place you in the wrong position should you need to take evasive action mid-corner. Racers do it because they know every corner that's coming up and position themselves accordingly. If little Sebastian runs out in front of you when you're hanging off the left of the bike and you need to veer right, you and he are in deep shit.

Cheers Lou you're right when I go out on the roads I ride often I get into this a bit more, because I know all the corners pretty well. A very good valid point as I now realise that when doing this on familiar roads you kinda tend to prepare yourself for the corner and it does take way longer to get out of it compared to not doing it. I guess it's not going to be beneficial in sticky situations :(



It is also beneficial to get your arse off the seat in the wet. This means the bike stays more upright for the same cornering speed and means less chance of a sideways slideout.



Point is relax focus on power, brakes and lines and smoothness, then it will come to you, If you try It probably wont happen, or you will look like a Knee poser (you will look dum).


Thanx Quasi, Beyond and Frosty. I'll mention what my main concerns are. Been riding for about 9 months now. Not a complete noob as I can now pull little wheelies as well :) Anywayz not going off topic. About 6 months ago my strips were about 35 mm and I worked hard on it to get it down to 25 mm and it's about 18 to 20 mm now bearing in mind I am 6'3 and 100 kg's and probably too big for a ZXR 250.

But in the last few months I just haven't been able to make any progress at all in terms of leaning and taking corners faster which is kinda frustrating me a little bit hence I guess I've been trying all sorts of silly things and as highlighted, unnecessary and perhaps wrong practice method.

It's not fun when you can't push yourself further and lately I've been thinking of giving it a go on tracks to see if that makes any difference. Perhaps it's my riding or something which I am not doing right that I can't make progress. Or maybe it will come with time and experience.

[mynameis]

I often wonder what guys think while they are trying to hang off and an old fart on a Bandit slips by and disappears !!!! ????
Why even bother trying to smash your knee into the road, I should imagine it would hurt ? G.

Shuush you !! Don't you know you're not allowed to say this in my thread? You must have been that old fart which went past me the other day on SH 17 when I was trying hard hanging my ass and knee out aye? Bugger!! Lol ehehe .. nah that was just more horsepower mate ;) ehehe cough cough !! :p


Watch me when you come out for a ride next week dude. The physics of it mean that having your weight inboard does make the bike slightly more stable, and in some cases it makes it turn the same radius corner with less lean (talking like 2-3deg).

The most beneficial things i've found for high speed riding are weight over the forks as much as possible (get it forward and low), and leaning into the corner, looking for the exit, but not with my knee out.


Agreed but I've only ever experienced that once which was a long 3 hours ride from Mt Manganui to Auckland. I think I did pretty well on that though. I did have my head low and my weight forward. Hmmm .. :innocent: maybe I should just go offline now and give the damn thing a go. 0oh opps no helmet .. lol ..

[Pwalo]

[
Pwalo - I agree with you there but perhaps I wasn't clear in my initial post, I don't really stick my ass out completely all the time but I tend to do it often now. With the subject of counter steering which I know has been raised on KB a million times but doesn't that happen naturally and sub consciously without you realising it most of the times?[/QUOTE]


Indeed it does, which is why I mentioned dropping your shoulder into the corner. This sets you up to use counter steering, and should get you set up to be looking through the corner.

I probably shouild have repeated the first rule of riding - LOOK WHERE YOU ARE GOING:yes:

[Deano]

I never had my knee down (road or track) until I got some leathers with knee sliders. Now it just happens sometimes.......without really trying.

It is a good guage for how far I am leaning and inspires confidence IMO.

[terbang]

I remember following a bloke on a Gixxer.????? on a coro loop when I had my bandit and he was climbing all over the place sticking his arse and all out into the breeze. Looked real impressive but didn't make him corner any faster than me on an old shitter. Couldn't see why he bothered apart from practising his track skills. Sometimes I shift myself into the corner a bit, especially on my old 1100 as it has a ground clearance problem or when on a wet road but mainly I keep my ass in the seat and if anything, just shift my shoulder into the turn. But I don't ride on a race track.

[sAsLEX]

One thing I didnt see in the guys initial post that both Quasi and Frosty latched on to was his want to get his knee down.

Instead he was refferring to shifting his weight about something you can do at any speed and simply adjust for the conditions, hell we all do it putting more weight on one peg etc coming in to a corner in town or dragging a knee through a hairpin its all about the situation!




I remember following a bloke on a Gixxer.????? on a coro loop when I had my bandit and he was climbing all over the place sticking his arse and all out into the breeze. Looked real impressive but didn't make him corner any faster than me on an old shitter. Couldn't see why he bothered apart from practising his track skills. Sometimes I shift myself into the corner a bit, especially on my old 1100 as it has a ground clearance problem or when on a wet road but mainly I keep my ass in the seat and if anything, just shift my shoulder into the turn. But I don't ride on a race track.

One of the more important things in riding especially on the road is to do what you feel comfortable with, if you like moving move if you like sitting planted on the seat do that, no one should really be judging you if you are safe. Who gives two shits if you look like a right knob if that is what you are comfortable doing then that puts you in the right frame of mind in my opinion.

[Quasievil]

Get a copy of twist of the wrist, very helpful

[mynameis]

Get a copy of twist of the wrist, very helpful

Um sorry dumb question but is that a book or DVD ?:innocent: And what is it all about? :D

[Big Dave]

I never had my knee down (road or track) until I got some leathers with knee sliders. Now it just happens sometimes.......without really trying.

It is a good guage for how far I am leaning and inspires confidence IMO.

Mate - if you are getting a knee down regularly on the completely untrustworthy NZ public roads you are heading for trouble.
They will betray you before too long.
Save that stuff for the track and controlled situations or consult the Orthopaedic dept of Wellington hospital and make sure the have a good supply of Femoral nails, pins and plates in stock.

[Quasievil]

Um sorry dumb question but is that a book or DVD ?:innocent: And what is it all about? :D

Well I got the book, Im unsure if there is a dvd, it is worth the read and it explains a great deal about information you should know, you can then practice the advise and you WILL become a better rider.
By the way , good on you for asking some questions dude

[Nutter34]

Keep your arms bent at the elbows. It sounds simple enough but it makes quite a difference. More often than not, by sliding off the seat and leaning off, you arms would be more bent than if you were sitting on the bike. It could be this little bit of difference which changes the perception of corner speed comfort.
For years I rode sports bikes and I just couldn't corner without shifting around on the seat. The impression of lots of weight on my wrists just never gave me confidence. By shifting on the seat, my elbows automatically bent more, which changed the dynamics of what my body was doing.

I'll admit, since getting a naked bike, it's become more clear and I hardly ever shift around on the seat now, except when I really try hard...

Not saying this is the case but in my opinion, it's more comfortable sitting upright and begging when it comes to cornering, riding position-wise....

[Fishy]

make sure the have a good supply of Femoral nails, pins and plates in stock.

I have a few of these on my shelf at home to remind me not to ride anywhere near South Korean drivers here on an international licence that can't read our road signs.

[Big Dave]

I have a few of these on my shelf at home to remind me not to ride anywhere near South Korean drivers here on an international licence that can't read our road signs.

Thanks for not quoting 'Orthopaedic'
which I have corrected.

[pritch]

There are already some good replies here but if I may add a couple of points:

Emulating Rossi and sliding yer arse all over the place in town will posssibly gather the unwanted attention of a tax gatherer.

Basically the only time moving that much weight inboard will help you, is when you are already at the point where something would be scraping if you weren't.

OK you have to practice, but routinely riding in the last small percentage of the adhesion envelope on public roads is not the way to reach old age Grasshopper...

[Lou Girardin]

THe most I'll do is poke a knee out, which seems to shift weight just fine. But moving my arse around just plays hell with my lumbago.

[Deano]

Mate - if you are getting a knee down regularly on the completely untrustworth NZ public roads you are heading for trouble.
They will betray you before too long.
Save that stuff for the track and controlled situations or consult the Orthopaedic dept of Wellington hospital and make sure the have a good supply of Femoral nails, pins and plates in stock.

I sometimes do on the Takas where it's smooth - not regularly.

On the track is where I use it more of a gauge (I should have been clearer in my post) - even then it's not good hitting the inside curbing/painted ripple strip.

[eliot-ness]

Never seen the attraction of hanging off the bike. It's a fairly modern phenomenon, to somebody of my age anyway. If your chicken strips are as wide as you say, you have a long way to go before you even consider it neccessary. Im no hard rider but I'm down to 10mm rear and 15mm front and thats on a a tourer with Macadam tyres. As others have said, keep it smooth, practice makes perfect. '
I've attached a pic of Hailwood, one of the best racers of all time. Never saw him hang off a bike, nor anyone else of his era, but look at the angle of lean and those skinny tyres.

[beyond]

Never seen the attraction of hanging off the bike. It's a fairly modern phenomenon, to somebody of my age anyway. If your chicken strips are as wide as you say, you have a long way to go before you even consider it neccessary. Im no hard rider but I'm down to 10mm rear and 15mm front and thats on a a tourer with Macadam tyres. As others have said, keep it smooth, practice makes perfect. '
I've attached a pic of Hailwood, one of the best racers of all time. Never saw him hang off a bike, nor anyone else of his era, but look at the angle of lean and those skinny tyres.

That is the ideal of course, but you can get away with sitting straight on the bike when it's a full on sporty or race bike with heaps of clearance. Most good sports bikes have a maximum lean angle of 45-54%, which is a long way over before stuff starts scratching the tarmac and by then you are nearly kissing the tar and it's nearly game over. :bye:
I have no strips at all on the rear and around 5mm on the front with standard Metzler Z6's. If I don't hang off in the fast stuff, I start wearing solid things away on the bike, that I prefer to keep intact and the clearance on the GSX1400 isn't too bad compared to some sports tourers.

[eliot-ness]

That is the ideal of course, but you can get away with sitting straight on the bike when it's a full on sporty or race bike with heaps of clearance. Most good sports bikes have a maximum lean angle of 45-54%, which is a long way over before stuff starts scratching the tarmac and by then you are nearly kissing the tar and it's nearly game over. :bye:
I have no strips at all on the rear and around 5mm on the front with standard Metzler Z6's. If I don't hang off in the fast stuff, I start wearing solid things away on the bike, that I prefer to keep intact and the clearance on the GSX1400 isn't too bad compared to some sports tourers.

Agreed, but the point I'm making is that he's still learning and, judging from his post. has a long way to go before he needs to start hanging off. To try it at the angles of lean he's doing is unnecesary and could be dangerous.

[beyond]

Very true indeed. Need to get the braking, cornering lines and general feel for the bike down to pat first, before doing all the other on the edge stuff.

I've always maintained that at least 5,000kms on a bike before you should know it enough to get away with most things. 10,000kms even better. :)

[Big Dave]

I sometimes do on the Takas where it's smooth - not regularly.

On the track is where I use it more of a gauge (I should have been clearer in my post) - even then it's not good hitting the inside curbing/painted ripple strip.

They may not have the latest pea gravel patch installation machinery down there either. They have it running overtime in the Bombays.

[Jimmy B]

Beyond,

Funny you should mention thoses distances. I remember reading somwhere that most serious bike related accidents occurred within the first 10,000Ks. After that the stats pointed to no worse than driving a cage. Granted that the outcome of each subsequent incident is always going to work out worse for the rider. Either that or what I have remembered bears no actual resembilence to the facts and could quite likely be poo.

JB

[skelstar]

The number of bikes out there that are for sale well-under 10,000kms is a good clue.

A large number of MCyclists talk about riding more than they actually ride.

Definitely not refering to anyone in particular

[jonbuoy]

If your'e hanging off in corners you are totally commited, theres no chance of being able to change your line by very much if the unexpected happens. The more you hang off the more upright the bike can be, a lot of quick road riders still have chicken strips cause theyre hanging there arses out. Looks very try hard and not particulary safe.

[sAsLEX]

If your'e hanging off in corners you are totally commited

No you're not.

[Drew]

I never had my knee down (road or track) until I got some leathers with knee sliders. Now it just happens sometimes.......without really trying.

It is a good guage for how far I am leaning and inspires confidence IMO.
While looking at my fellow race team member's avatar, it occurs to me that he aint moving, and only got that shot because his bike is so light he wasn't moving, just leant the bike over and held it up on his knee.

He aint never had his knee down, and so fuckin slow he never will.:done:


Thought I should tell all that i'm taking the piss, he's as quick on the 400 as I am on me 750. Dont want nobody thinking of turning this into another smack talk thread. Way too many as it is.

[skelstar]

Ive only ever seen you post in smack-talk threads Fiz. :)

[SwanTiger]

The number of bikes out there that are for sale well-under 10,000kms is a good clue.
A large number of MCyclists talk about riding more than they actually ride.
Ain't that the truth. Amen.

[Pickle]

As Quasi has said go get a copy of Twist of the wrist & or The soft science of road racing motorcycles. They are available on DVD. These are written by Keith Code who has helped people like Wayne Rainey & Eddie Lawson both 500GP champions.
A quote from the cornering section "be comfortable instead of stylish" & "Dont hang off if you dont have to"

Concentrate on being smooth & your lines thru corners the speed will come - Be Patient.

[jonbuoy]

No you're not.

Not that I want to start a yes no argument over the web but - try changing line through a corner when your hanging off the bike - then when your sat more to the centre. Its alot harder to change when your hanging off, another reason police persuit riders are taught to sit in the middle, and there not slow riders.

[quickbuck]

dude I can show you pictures of guys at insane lean angles who are sitting bum firmly planted on seat. I cant remember my last ONROAD knee down experience


I can remember mine, and it turns out to be one of the dumbest things I have done.
The course chip grabbed my kneeslider, and just about tore my leg off!!!
Twas over 10 years ago now, but I still remember exactly where it happened. Never put my knee on the public road again (not while still riding the bike anyway).

[Fat Tony]

As soon as I hit the (UK) open roads my ass is off the seat in most turns. I weigh sod all and I find it helps big time in conjunction with countersteering. If it makes me look like a squid, then it makes me look like a squid, but I feel more confident riding like that, so I'll continue to do so. I've no chicken strip left on either side of the rear tyre so tipping it further isn't going to be a wise move imho.

The knees rarely goes down on the public road (unless out with mates on familar roads and showboating) and you usually find that trying to get your knee down only goes to slow your progress - sparky sliders do get you some good cheers from the local spectators though, lol

If you really want to improve your confidence in the turns, get your self some track time where it's much safer to try things out and learn from watching/talking to/following more experienced riders. Loads of fun! :)

[jtzzr]

My arse hangs left sometimes right, every now and then I get on my bike, it will come to you what style you are comfortable with look at the the frogger , he had a totally unique style , just do what suits you. As most peeps on this site know, when your hitting corners at a speed above the recommended speed( I don`t) you are where you want to be,but safely of course. Good luck to you

[deeknow]

One of the more important things in riding especially on the road is to do what you feel comfortable with, if you like moving move if you like sitting planted on the seat do that.

You've hit the nail on the head there I reckon sAsLEX :yes:

For the first few fledgling years of my riding experience I worked at both counter-steering and weight-shifting, but I just naturally like to be moving about on the bike so thats the technique I've settled into. It seems more interactive to me, like I'm engaging with the environment a bit more.

However, there are two well-experienced dudes I ride with on occasion who are both counter-steerers, following them (or trying to) was most enlightening for me as I grappled with two-wheeled physics. Despite our natural instinct to want to ride like some GP racer, it really is a personal comfort/style thing that takes time to expose.

Having that patience to discover what's natural for you is probably what helps the "survivors" survive long term.

[deeknow]

The most beneficial things i've found for high speed riding are weight over the forks as much as possible (get it forward and low).

This is another hugely-useful piece of advice, something you're not gonna pick up from some learners-licence skills course, but an apparently simple technique like this can take years to stumble across. I'd say most bikers have that self-taught attitude, but imagine if we'd all had to attend some track-day course when we'd first bought bikes.

I guess not everyone actually wants to be going hard-out all the time, but these sorts of skills surely make for a safer ride at any pace?

[Sketchy_Racer]

I race my 150 on the track and it is also my road bike.

As a road bike:

I have never got my knee down. ever. I have only shifted my weight on two occasions where i have come into a corner to fast and knew i was going to run out of ground clearance if i didnt get some weight on the inside of a bike.

So Alvin, on your 250 and the status of your chicken strips i would not move any weight at all. there is no need. you are not going to be scraping pegs or anything. They only thing you will be achieving by moving your ass off and putting your knee out will just be making you further away from your controls. Plus making you look like SkidMark/Markauckland.

Sit straight with your bike. If you start scraping stuff then deal with it then. a while away yet.

As a Race bike:

Every corner i knee down. As Deano said, it all about guaging the distance of your bike. and in my case on the 150 in the sweeper at manfeild (150kph corner) If i start to tuck the front on my bike i dont hve enough power to accelerate out of it so i use my knee to unload the weight off the bike to help it regain traction.

Also on the track i shift my body weight into the corner because my pegs scrape. By getting my weight lower on the bike (sliding my ass over) i can carry more corner speed without as much scraping.


Forget about where you are sitting on your bike and concentrate on the asian infront of you about to pull out!

-RG

[Deano]

If your chicken strips are as wide as you say, you have a long way to go before you even consider it neccessary. Im no hard rider but I'm down to 10mm rear and 15mm front and thats on a a tourer with Macadam tyres. As others have said, keep it smooth, practice makes perfect. '
I've attached a pic of Hailwood, one of the best racers of all time. Never saw him hang off a bike, nor anyone else of his era, but look at the angle of lean and those skinny tyres.

I have about 5mm front strips (road and track) - I don't get the knee down to pose (sorry Fizzerman haha). As others have said - whatever feels comfortable and works for you. Cycosis is one of the quickest road and track riders I have seen and he doesn't shift his arse sweet FA - he does however, grind his pipe into the ground at track days.

Hailwood is certainly a legend, but given a MotoGP bike, do you think he would change his style ?

Seems Rossi and Co. do it for a reason - obviously tyre technology etc comes in to play.

[Motu]

I only move forward and back,if my pegs touch the ground I'm in big trouble....and it'd be past tense to find that out.

[Clivoris]

The true secret to hanging-off is eating more pies. :niceone: Both cheeks hang off without effort, end of problem. And you're always looking motogp stylish form all angles.:Punk:

[PZR]

I started moving around on the seat more recently, not with the intention of getting my knee down but it makes a huge difference to how the bike handles. And reading all this I think it is more the position I end up acheiving as I know I have not moved very far off centre but it helps me load the weight more accuratly. The Beemer is a big heavy bike and me weighting the side of the tank with a knee improves cornering immensely. I imagine it also gets my head lower and I feel like I am in more of an "attack" position for the fast twisties. But for normal legal speed riding I just sit there and enjoy the ride.
Oh yeah it helps a lot if I relax my own middle aged low centre of gravity as well (but thats just between you and me, so dont tell anyone ok?)

[Crasherfromwayback]

Is the question. I got told once; I was too stiff and lacked proper movement/ right motion when cornering which apparently wouldn’t allow you to take corners faster or lean into it more to take it faster.

So I took that on board and started practising moving my ass, sticking my knee out and head and elbow movement proportionally.


The main thing to remember mate is this......motorcycles DO NOT like sudden movements and imputs from the rider. If you want to transfer your weight and body position, do it nicely...that is...smoothly and gently.

It'll all seem a lot more 'fluid' when you remember and practice this.

Just because I crash a lot, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing!!

Enjoy.....

Pete

[Pickle]

Just because I crash a lot, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing!!


Now that's funny.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
But if you have ever ridden with this guy he does know what he is talking about, didnt win a 250 TT by going slow.

[beyond]

The main thing to remember mate is this......motorcycles DO NOT like sudden movements and imputs from the rider.
Pete


I totally agree. A sudden movement when hanging your arse off the seat is inclined to dirty your leathers and your bike. Sudden movements are best left for sand blasting the porcelain. :yes: :dodge:

On that note: Whats brown and sits on a piano stool.












Beethovens last movement. :)

[sAsLEX]

If your'e hanging off in corners you are totally commited, theres no chance of being able to change your line by very much if the unexpected happens. The more you hang off the more upright the bike can be, a lot of quick road riders still have chicken strips cause theyre hanging there arses out. Looks very try hard and not particulary safe.


Not that I want to start a yes no argument over the web but - try changing line through a corner when your hanging off the bike - then when your sat more to the centre. Its alot harder to change when your hanging off, another reason police persuit riders are taught to sit in the middle, and there not slow riders.

Well not to stoke the argument but you have changed your story. From totally comitted to a little harder to change line...so I would like to put another side of the story out there its called physics.


Now most bikes weigh what? say 160 - 180 for a modern sprotbike more for a tourer more for a cruiser. And your average rider weighs 80ish at a guess, ok I do.

Now in a corner I slide off the inside of the seat, shifting my weight about , and through a series of esses I move from side to side and let the bike remain more upright, now this means that instead of getting 170kg worth of weight moving from side to side like a big momentum filled pendulum I am moving only 80kgs around significantly.

Instead of hangin off the side like a counter weight you should be active on the bike like a jockey, up on your toes ready to move your weight where its needed forward over the forks, left or right back where ever its needed as you as the rider can move about alot faster than the bike can react to plain old control inputs.

So how can one turn faster smack bang in the middle of the seat hanging out there like a big fat pendulum huh?? There must be a reason GP racers do it now through chicanes to keep the bike upright??

But like all techniques/styles/skills a wee bit of common sense goes in to how much one applies on the road where that chicane could pop up at any time and be a possum or a mabel unexpectadly taking up your line.

[mynameis]

Well I got the book, Im unsure if there is a dvd, it is worth the read and it explains a great deal about information you should know, you can then practice the advise and you WILL become a better rider.
By the way , good on you for asking some questions dude

They are $70 and comes in books and Audio (CD) but out of stock at the moment at Whitcoulls. Few volumes have been released as well for those interesed click here on Whitcoulls website (http://www.whitcoulls.co.nz/frontpagelinesonly.asp?storeurl=whitcoulls&searchbycriteria=twist+of+the+wrist&searchby=title&searchbycat=&dball=0&sort=status). Written by Keith Code

Might try uni library they might have it there if I am luck ;) Cheers !!


I've attached a pic of Hailwood, one of the best racers of all time. Never saw him hang off a bike, nor anyone else of his era, but look at the angle of lean and those skinny tyres.

Good interesting point there mate, the lean angle is pretty low but interesting to see none of the riders are hanging off nor are the knees sticking out wonder why when compared to MotoGP riders of today ? Hmm .. :innocent:


I've always maintained that at least 5,000kms on a bike before you should know it enough to get away with most things. 10,000kms even better. :)

Ok I am on my second bike now and must say havent put on the 10 k mark yet pretty sure I haven't. Maybe I just shouldn't push myself too much and perhaps things would fall in place with experience?


Concentrate on being smooth & your lines thru corners the speed will come - Be Patient.

Thanx Veteran sounds good :)

[mynameis]

The true secret to hanging-off is eating more pies. :niceone: Both cheeks hang off without effort, end of problem. And you're always looking motogp stylish form all angles.:Punk:

You're the funnitest out of all I give you 10/10 for GSOH :lol:

[eliot-ness]

[QUOTE=mynameis;
Good interesting point there mate, the lean angle is pretty low but interesting to see none of the riders are hanging off nor are the knees sticking out wonder why when compared to MotoGP riders of today ? Hmm:)[/QUOTE]

What makes the comparison more interesting is that, in 1978, after an eight year lay off, Hailwood made a comeback on the Ducati for the IOM TT. By then almost all riders were hanging off, he, having had no practice in the intervening years, rode in the old style. He not only won the race but also set a new lap and race record on a bike he hadn't raced before. Would have loved to see him up against Rossi.
A comment he made in an interveiw was very interesting. [Quote] I never ride at 100%. Just fast enough to win. [Quote]. Could be why he rarely crashed.
Another point that would be considered strange in these days of specialists. In the 60s It was normal for works riders to race in all classes. Hailwood, Redman, Agostini et al would ride 125, 250, 350 and 500cc at all world championship rounds including the TT. Hailwood even rode 50cc one year.
:first: :first: :first:

[Ixion]

I don't recall ever seeing Agostini hanging off , either.

Is there a connection with the difference in tyre width? Even the very powerful racing two strokes never had the extremely wide low profile tyres that seem necessary today. The tyres on a Manx Norton are narrower than those on a FXR150! But, they are "rounder". Some of the modern low profile tyres are almost flat, like a car tyre.

Nor do I ever recall anyone being very concerned about tyre width., even on racing machines.

I have never found hanging off give any benefits, but then, my bikes always have the old style narrow tyres. Is there a connection

[sAsLEX]

I don't recall ever seeing Agostini hanging off , either.

Is there a connection with the difference in tyre width? Even the very powerful racing two strokes never had the extremely wide low profile tyres that seem necessary today. The tyres on a Manx Norton are narrower than those on a FXR150! But, they are "rounder". Some of the modern low profile tyres are almost flat, like a car tyre.

Nor do I ever recall anyone being very concerned about tyre width., even on racing machines.

I have never found hanging off give any benefits, but then, my bikes always have the old style narrow tyres. Is there a connection

Motu brings up this point in the "any idea why?" thread in that the cog should be moved over the contact patch, which on flat wide tires moves out but stays central on skinny round tires....

[Crasherfromwayback]

I don't recall ever seeing Agostini hanging off , either.

Is there a connection with the difference in tyre width? Even the very powerful racing two strokes never had the extremely wide low profile tyres that seem necessary today. The tyres on a Manx Norton are narrower than those on a FXR150! But, they are "rounder". Some of the modern low profile tyres are almost flat, like a car tyre.

Nor do I ever recall anyone being very concerned about tyre width., even on racing machines.

I have never found hanging off give any benefits, but then, my bikes always have the old style narrow tyres. Is there a connection

Only my thoughts....but may well be that the tyres they were working with were at the limits of traction out at the edge of the tyre. Modern tyres have so much grip you can ride right off the 'edge' of them....this I know, I've done so many times!! hence racers now have to 'hang off' to keep the bike sunny side up!!

[Crasherfromwayback]

I totally agree. A sudden movement when hanging your arse off the seat is inclined to dirty your leathers and your bike. Sudden movements are best left for sand blasting the porcelain. :yes: :dodge:

On that note: Whats brown and sits on a piano stool.












Beethovens last movement. :)

Good call!! I wondered what that mushy brown stain was common to all of my race suits!