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View Full Version : What kind of bike for F3/Clubmans?



Funkyfly
17th June 2004, 15:27
This is a follow on from "cost of racing"

I saw that 1988 FZR400 on Trademe, looked good. I have read a bit on the net about these and they seem like good bikes, im just wondering how they compare to the ZXR400's?

Im not interested in a 2 stroke as they require more $$ and attention to keep em going.

The SV650 arent aloowed in the VIC F3 class so that rules them out also.

What about Honda VFR400's?

Hoon
17th June 2004, 15:42
I've spent the last 9 months hunting for my new F3 bike and IMHO the top 3 would have to be (in no particular order):

Kawasaki ZXR400 L1+ (1991 onwards)
Yamaha FZR400 3TJ+ (1990 onwards)
Honda VFR400 NC30/34 (1992? onwards)

The NC30/34 are common but the ZXR400L's and 3TJ's are a little less common. You could also get the earlier models of the above (i.e. ZXR400H1-H2, FZR400 1WG, VFR400 NC24) which are quite common but they are a few hp down on the 2nd gen models. Likewise the SP versions of the above are quite rare now.

These will give you a good competitive platform to start on and have the potential to take the national title if you throw enough cash at them.

Also the GSXR400's are popular too but for some reason they don't get much mention?

I'm not too clued up on the VFR400's. KK is your man and hopefully he can contribute.

curious george
17th June 2004, 16:58
@ STrokes RUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLE U ALL!!!!

*Ahem, I am yet to race, so the above bit of nonsence should be carefully considered against all the other available advice....*
*Lots would say I don't know what I'm talking about too. I'm one of them*

Two Smoker
17th June 2004, 17:05
even though i race a 2 stroke..... i will still say go for a 400..... much cheaper too race.....

If you want too know anything about the ZXR or VFR/RVF ask KK, he has raced both......

If you want to know about GSX-R's ask Mitch as she races one of them :niceone:

and ofcourse Hoon races a two stroke :niceone:

FROSTY
17th June 2004, 17:18
Unless you are a total star right off the mark any one of the bikes mentioned will be a great platform to get you started. Id buy what you can find and go out and learn how to race. hoon is right about the greater hp of the later models but its gonna take you at least a season to get to need it.
The BIGGEST mistake you could make is thinking getting more HP will make you faster.A solid reliable bike is going to teach you a heck of a lot more than an unreliable pocket rocket.
I opted for the 89 ZXR400sp- main reason was availability but it so far is far in excess of my skill level as it stands.
Other than very minor mods it is totally stock.
My suggestion first off would be to race what you currently own. Go out and race in clubmans -See if its fun
From there you can make your own decisions.

Kwaka-Kid
17th June 2004, 19:00
Yep dude, sound advise all round. Heard good and bad stories about them all! the only bikes ive heard of to Blow up on the track are the GSXR's and the FZR's but thats just because they are Suzuki's and Yamaha's - try not to hold it against the people that own them :P
anyway aside from shit stirring. XJ has a bloody great point! With one thing id like to add, if i was doing this all over again there is only one thing id look at, and thats 400's with a 3.5" front rim and 4.5" back rim, which means they take 120 front radials and 150(or in zxr case(odd!)160 radials) id buy anything with those rims, which is all of the brands across hte board from 1990 onwards i think, and zxr's and vfr's had it in 1989 even, not sure about others. Id be a little worried about that 88 FZR as its likly to have the way skinnier rims and therefore take Crossply tyres (just cant get the same sticky tyres!). and it seems the jump in rim sizes is where they all went up in power too, the NC24 has the skinnys and is approx 5hp down on the later 30/35(TO CORRECT YOU HOON!)
Id also like to add the CLAIMED HP/PS MEANS NOTHING as the manufacturers had a gentlemans agreement with japan regulations authority dudes up untill 1994 that a 400cc road bike had to be 59HP or LESS (they all made about 60 so claimed 59) to fit into the cheap bracket of tax or whatever! which LATER they changed in 1994 to 53HP, hence why the RVF is claimed to only have 53HP on most sites AS IS the ZXR400L3(? or whatever) of around those years, my years may be a little out or something but the power claimed figures were what they had to stick to. I race on an RVF engine in VFR frame to which everyone says "your a fool, why would you put the less powerful engine in?! your down like 5HP son!" Ill admit the RVF genuinely stock has a LITTLE less HP, but you start getting into the nitty gritty of wear/tear etc and HP loss like that, and the RVF was meant to had bigger midrange etc and has flatslide carbs (taht are 1mm smaller i know i know but apparently they give better flow)

Sorry im rambling again, but like i said, if it was me, check that it runs 120/60/17 and 150/50/17(not sure on other brands aside from honda/kawasaki but possibly 18"-little less options on tyres but still good radials). If so! Get out there, give it a go! You wont win on it, you cant win against SV650's anyway, and esp not against 400's with loads of money poured into them.

Anyway sometimes dude youll find hte best deals at a club meeting! People sell F3 racebikes for around $2000ish and anything like that is perfect entry level.

Posh Tourer :P
17th June 2004, 20:16
What is the difference between RVF and VFR?

k14
17th June 2004, 21:41
The RVF (NC34) is the newer model of the VRF (NC30), i think the RVF started being produced around 94. They have basically the same engine (V4) and frame and everything else from what I can tell.

As KK said the RVF apparantly has less hp, but is a little more refined. The RVF looks way nicer imo, but the VFR is still pretty nice. One trademark of both is a single sided swingarm. From the F3 racing I have seen, very limited, it seemed that the NC30 VFR's and the ZXR400's were the most popular. The RVF's are probably a little more expensive but i think there are more go fast (ie hrc) parts for it.

Does that answer your question?

Kickaha
17th June 2004, 21:47
I thought one of the problems with running the Hondas was the poor availibilty of 17 inch rear wheels,which if you end up wanting to run slicks is a essential.

FROSTY
17th June 2004, 22:06
Ive just come back from AMCC -The road race committee
Is looking at cutting down the number of classes in the club series due to 1 lack of entrys and 2 running out of time to run 3 races per class
It seems the idea is to run -1-F1/F2 together as formula auckland -F3 will survive but will also include the 125 racing class .firgotten era will continue with senior and junior. -pre89 will run in the forgotten era races as a sub class. Clubmans will continue provided there are enough entries -The idea is to have just 5 race classes so there will only be 15 races in a program
What does that mean in this context --f3 is still a living breathing class with the biggest feild in club racing

Hoon
17th June 2004, 22:24
Nope its the other way around. The earlier bikes have 18" rear rims (also the 89-90 RGV250s) and you are very limited in tyre choices in 18" whereas all brands do a 17".

Also reinforcing what Frosty said, for a first bike you might want to get the cheapest and easiest attainable bike you can find as for the first season it will be the rider with the performance problem not the bike. Adopt the attitude that you could write off the bike the next time you are out so don't be too eager to invest in something that you won't yet fully utilize. Thats why I got my RGV and it has taught me heaps - plus it crashes real cheaply too but now I'm ready to move up to the next level (and reach deeper into my wallet).

FROSTY
17th June 2004, 23:13
- plus it crashes real cheaply too but now I'm ready to move up to the next level ).

Ok ok Im sorry-rub it in why doncha :mad: :mad:
Hey hoon are ya gonna stick with stock engine or give her the ol boring bar ?

Hoon
18th June 2004, 00:49
Don't worry about it dude...with that front slick you gave me I ended up gaining from that weekend!!!

When it comes engine rebuild time (after next season maybe) I might go the 450cc route...depends how much money I have and how necessary it is.

Shawn
18th June 2004, 04:20
humm..how about CBR 400RR...

SPman
18th June 2004, 19:10
What is the difference between RVF and VFR? The VFR NC30 is like a 400 version of the RC30 750 and the RVF NC35 is a bit like a mini RC45. NC30 has 18 inch rear wheel , NC35 has RWU forks and 17 inch rear.

gav
29th June 2004, 15:02
For a first off club/F3 racer a ZXR400L is the way to go, they are cheap, still reasonably competitive and as reliable as a race bike can be. With the 120/60 17 and 160/60 17 combo tyres you can pick up second hand SV race tyres if youre on a tight budget. The bike seems to fit most people pretty good. Best to see if you can pick up an ex race bike with all the mods done, prob around $3Kish? next choice would be a FZR or an NC30 if you fit one, they are a bit smaller than the ZXR and FZR. I used to race a 93 ZXR so I'm possibly a little one eyed, but looked around at alot and the ZXR was the best choice.

Kwaka-Kid
29th June 2004, 16:12
diff between RVF and VFR (NC35 and NC30) engine wise is the RVF is slightly less compression but has the flatslide carbs that give a definate better midrange and possibly a bit better top end.

dunno about ZXR, yeah why not, they are expensive - i guess that can be said about the honda though...just get out there! and hoon you dont need the 450cc trust me, gary is considering it for his rvf engine but unless you have a shitload of money just learn to ride faster - which u alraedy do really well, so i think youll have it sorted.

Hoon
30th June 2004, 11:45
Yeah the 450cc upgrade was just something that I will consider at the end of next season only if I require a engine rebuild and only if I need the extra power. My engine has already done 38K on the street. I just finished putting in a new cam chain and semi-blueprinted the head while I was at it. Compression went from 100-120PSI up to 190-210PSI now!! The top end was very worn but not damaged so I'm expecting the bottom end to look the same but I'm still down on a little power (topping out at 200-210kph instead of the claimed 225kph).
I've got to retune the carbs again and then its going onto the AMPS dyno next week to see how far off the factory 65bhp it is in its current stock form. I'll be happy with anything over 60bhp!

However one thing I've learnt from the ZXR400L's is poor parts availability at horrendous costs. Almost everything I need I have to wait a day for it turn up. Non-standard sprocket sizes are out of the question (had to order online from AU). I've lost faith it getting parts thru my local Kwaka dealer so I have resort to purchasing online from AU/US.

Kwaka-Kid
30th June 2004, 15:49
std 65HP?! no way, i cant beleive it? none of the 400's broke that far from 60hp dead stock did they?! the VFR's certainly didnt. and man what an up on compression! crazy - did you skim the head in the end?... gl on the dyno dude, we need to find a KB'er with one so we can get some cheap runs in.

gav
30th June 2004, 16:45
Hoon, try Colin Clyne Motorcycles in Oamaru
Colin Clyne Motorcycles Oamaru
419 Thames Highway Oamaru
03-437 0559
Andy Bolwell knows a thing or two about racing ZXR400's and can probably sort you out on parts etc

Kwaka-Kid
30th June 2004, 17:27
oh and hoon - yeah the RVF claims 227.5kmph top speed, but i can only get to 13,500rpm in top, guessing that would be about 215ish dunno, and my top speed gets worse further and further into the race, as she heats up i GUESS, last lap shell barely pull 13,000 etc. crazy.

Hoon
30th June 2004, 17:51
Sorry, 65ps the book says which equals 64.11 hp.
I didn't do any mods...the compression improvements are all due to fixing the worn cam chain, bad valve seats, way tight valve clearances and the removal of 38K worth of carbon buildup from the ports and chambers. I also wanted to do the valve guides and seals too but couldn't get the parts (not for a reasonable price anyway) so they'll have to wait til next time.

But the 2 weeks of slaving over that head every night sure did pay off. It amazes me how slack the factory tolerances can be! I've had the ZXR for just over a month now but its spent most of that time on the garage bench!! Yesterday was the first real ride I had where I could thrash the shit out of it with confidence......all a big rush for this weekends track day which isn't to be now :(

Yeah KK I can do 14K in 5th but only 12.5-13K in 6th (which barely pulls at all).

Ohh and thanks Gav, do you have any tips for the ZXR400L, especially in the suspension dept?

Kwaka-Kid
30th June 2004, 20:40
yeah - be thankful, you have the best stock suspension over the whole F3 grid!

and nice dude, the manual actually claims 65ps?! feck, my manual for my rvf motor claims 53ps - and like i said i always beleive it was the agreement with govt, but obviously not if kwaka claim it?.. could it be true? my 1994 rvf motor nearly 10hp down on a 1991(?) zxr? i dunno about that, i know alot of those 400's up front are making more power as the backstraight proves it, but im sure it doesnt feel like nearing 20% or so extra power they have over me, man figures are so hard to judge sometimes, we all need to dyno on the same dyno on the same day.

gpercivl
1st July 2004, 09:42
Hi F3 racer dudes...Paul Stewart is the new Road Race Commissioner for MNZ and I emailled him to see if there would be any more rule or class changes for F3 this year as the previous commissioner was thinking about. Paul responded saying that things would remain the same as last year for F3 and that he'd try to give at least 18months notice of changes in the future to allow plenty of time to adapt. So, if you're planning on doing the National's this year it might be better to run an SV-650...they out grunt the std 400's coming out of corners which gives lots of advantage. Andy Bolwell's 450 was a match for them, but his was the only reliable 450 racing over last summer. My 3TJ FZR400 with radical cams could pull them back at the end of the straight's at Ruapuna & Teretonga but reliability was an issue, the engine lasted only 2 more meetings after the Nat's finished. I'l be looking at building a 450 over the winter but it's a 3mm bore for the FZR which needs piston kit, liners, and head work...so it may be out of my price range this year.

Hope to see y'all at the track anyway, cheers Greg

No Hair Racing
http://www.nohair.co.nz

FROSTY
1st July 2004, 12:02
Sorry, 65ps the book says which equals 64.11 hp.
I didn't do any mods...the compression improvements are all due to fixing the worn cam chain, bad valve seats, way tight valve clearances and the removal of 38K worth of carbon buildup from the ports and chambers. I also wanted to do the valve guides and seals too but couldn't get the parts (not for a reasonable price anyway) so they'll have to wait til next time.

But the 2 weeks of slaving over that head every night sure did pay off. It amazes me how slack the factory tolerances can be! I've had the ZXR for just over a month now but its spent most of that time on the garage bench!! Yesterday was the first real ride I had where I could thrash the shit out of it with confidence......all a big rush for this weekends track day which isn't to be now :(

Yeah KK I can do 14K in 5th but only 12.5-13K in 6th (which barely pulls at all).

Ohh and thanks Gav, do you have any tips for the ZXR400L, especially in the suspension dept?
Dude just one bit of advise i got from guys running zxr400's --dont go for more than 14000 rpm--aparently then start pulling valves through the head.
I was having a hell of a job with the rear shock on mine to get the damping working properly.
Im thinking the olins out of the 750 might find its way in there

F5 Dave
1st July 2004, 17:45
I haven't bothered reading the rest of this so hope it isn't repeated, apparently ZXR400s like FZR valves fitted to stop their valve eating habits.