MotoGP 500

[Hillbilly]

Do you ever think it'll make a comeback? I believe that FIM stopped the 500cc 2-strokes form competing for 5 years. Shame, as the old Cagiva C594 was putting out a whisker below 200hp,and that was back in 1994! . Don't know what the Hondas or Suzukis were putting out.

[ZeroIndex]

it was too much of the powerband and all those highsides, and since 4-stroke is deemed new technology, the move went that way.. the yzr-m1 has 2-stroke-like pickup though,,

[R6_kid]

It was also partly due to emissions, but you're right they did look they had a massive kick in the pants when the powerband came about - though it is racing and learning to tame that is all part of the beast.

In the year that the 500cc two strokes and 990cc four strokes raced together it became apparent that they 500cc bikes weren't going to cut it anymore. If you want to know more then watch 'Faster' it has a little bit on it when they were testing the last 500cc prototype which almost could have done it.

[Ivan]

bring em back,
If moto gp is the tru championship and ifyou win you are the best well you need bikes with viscious powerbands to prove your self really not 288bhp and a smooth power curve

[R6_kid]

288bhp? WTF i thought they were only up to 250bhp

They still have to manage the throttle smoothly otherwise they will spin up or lift the front, as you should know ivan doing either of these isnt good for you mid corner at 200kmh+

will be interesting next season with the new 800s

[Motu]

They should just run an open class - if 2 strokes are faster what's the big deal,if you want to win you ride the fastest bike.I can't see a 500cc 4 stroke getting anywhere near a 2 stroke of the same capacity.Stop the capacity restrictions on 2 strokes! 4 strokes are gutless,they shouldn't need to be propped up with regulations in their favour.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah Toilets have valves.

4 strokes were always allowed in the 500 class, it's just that they were too putzy to compete with real race bikes. Even Honda with their millions couldn't get the NR500 competitive, or even near.

All down to bureaucratic pin heads either favouring the 60s or influenced by manufacturers that think the public will think their GSXR contains the same technology as the motoGP bike. (which going on past performance maybe Suzuki would be better off racing the GSXR:laugh:).
F1 cars of course look nothing like any road car so are heinously irrelevant so crap on that as an argument:whocares: .

But they stifled 2 stroke development by disallowing direct injection & then say “well let’s introduce 4 strokes with no noise restrictions & double the size”.
Then they blanket banned 2 strokes a couple of years later.

Pooftahs! :ar15:

[ZeroIndex]

It was also partly due to emissions, but you're right they did look they had a massive kick in the pants when the powerband came about - though it is racing and learning to tame that is all part of the beast.

In the year that the 500cc two strokes and 990cc four strokes raced together it became apparent that they 500cc bikes weren't going to cut it anymore. If you want to know more then watch 'Faster' it has a little bit on it when they were testing the last 500cc prototype which almost could have done it.

my workmate has that 'Faster' DVD.. nice vid to watch.. :)

[Hillbilly]

I think they should bring back the 500s but as a separate class. I mean, they've still got the 125GP and 250GP 2-strokes. The technology has developed heaps.

The Aprilia RS125 now has a 12.5:1 compression ratio and it's homologated for Sports Production. The stock Cagiva Mito has a compression ratio of only 7.4:1. The new two-stokes now have catalytic converters also.

Haven't paid much attention to the Jap bikes, but the Honda NS125 outs out 48bhp, which isn't too bad for 125.

Anyway, if all this new technology was applied to a 500cc capacity 2-stroke along with all that carbon-fibre bodywork, modern Ohlins shocks, petal discs with radial calipers, and most imortantly modern slicks, imagine what sort of race bike you'd end up with.

[SPman]

Bring back the 2 strokes and no electronic aids. then see haw the new kids on the block perform - even Rossi needed a learning period on the 500's.
No margin for error at all!

[gav]

Honda have sent a letter out to all teams running RS125's in GP's that Honda will no longer be supplying 125's next year. :bye:

[Hillbilly]

I don't think they can compete against the Aprilia's. Here's a couple of quotes that sums up the 500's perfectly:


"In Superbikes he crashed one every week. On a 500, he'll crash every day!" Carl Fogarty's comment on Gobert


"John is just a kid. He did a good job but is not ready to race 500s. Definitely not on my team or against me!" Wayne Rainey after John Kocinski left Team Roberts for the Suzuki 250 ride

[Cleve]

You guys are kidding right? Bring back the ring dings??!! (Look I used to race 250 proddie so I do love the little lawnmowers but really...)
Having been to a few 500GPs and also in the last 2 years 3 MotoGP rounds there is no comparison when it comes to just the noise. Awesome.
It is not the 4 stroke power curve that has stopped the highsides etc from the 500 days. It is tyre technology and electronic engine management. Had they kept with 2 strokes (and I am glad they haven't) the same technology would have fixed that problem too.
250 and 125's will go in a few years time as well.

[F5 Dave]

I think they should bring back the 500s but as a separate class. I mean, they've still got the 125GP and 250GP 2-strokes. The technology has developed heaps.

The Aprilia RS125 now has a 12.5:1 compression ratio and it's homologated for Sports Production. The stock Cagiva Mito has a compression ratio of only 7.4:1. The new two-stokes now have catalytic converters also.

Haven't paid much attention to the Jap bikes, but the Honda NS125 outs out 48bhp, which isn't too bad for 125.

Anyway, if all this new technology was applied to a 500cc capacity 2-stroke along with all that carbon-fibre bodywork, modern Ohlins shocks, petal discs with radial calipers, and most imortantly modern slicks, imagine what sort of race bike you'd end up with.

Don't read spec sheets in isolation.The diff in compression you quote is full stroke vs corrected for exhaust port height. They could be the same. Obviously a race bike would be higher as runs on consistently better fuel & several other reasons.

NSR125 48hp? Oh please! In their dreams! The best of the road 125s make a tickle over 25hp at the rear wheel. RS125s (GP) at factory level make ~ 50.

Last paragraph? Erm GP500s had all these things, they only departed 3 yrs ago. They would benefit from engine management, but that would have happened if they had been allowed to develop direct injection.

The manufacturers don’t really care about good racing (& to some extent either do the FIM/Promoters), what they care about is money.

And Cleve, I prefer the sound of a race 2 stroke. Even with the mufflers on.

[Toast]

They should just run an open class - if 2 strokes are faster what's the big deal,if you want to win you ride the fastest bike.I can't see a 500cc 4 stroke getting anywhere near a 2 stroke of the same capacity.Stop the capacity restrictions on 2 strokes! 4 strokes are gutless,they shouldn't need to be propped up with regulations in their favour.

I say bring back 2 strokes and let them be 990cc...

Considering that Ducati didn't use their most powerful motor last year 'cos it would drain the tank too fast, not to mention shred the tyres even quicker, I'd love to see the comedy unveil as a 990cc 2 stroke took to the track...preferably at a track with nice big run offs to avoid tragedy.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah with nitrous. Maybe introduce a control tyre. Say Metz MC4.

-Though that would probably help in the run off area.:mellow:

[Ivan]

Haven't paid much attention to the Jap bikes, but the Honda NS125 outs out 48bhp, which isn't too bad for 125.




Far My honda RS125 GP bike only makes 48 HP

[Hillbilly]

Yeah, but that's bhp. The NSR 150 puts out about 40hp.

[Ivan]

yeah its awierd horse power not down low, only after 10,000 rpm
Very fun bike shame to read what Gav said

[F5 Dave]

hp & bhp are the same. There are different dynos, some measure pretty optimistic. Dynojets are pretty much the std as there are so many of them.

But mostly the manufacturers lie. What good is a crank measurement? My bikes all have gearboxes & chains & rear wheels. The tyre is what meets the road.

NSR150 would struggle to reach 30 bhp., your GS mid 40s. maybe

[edit] I got curious er my GS guess so I googled it. http://gstwin.com/dyno_run.htm


How good am I?:yes: . . . Well actually not very, this bike had a pipe & jet-kit so std would be say 39

[SimJen]

Yeah Toilets have valves.

Then they blanket banned 2 strokes a couple of years later.

Pooftahs! :ar15:

Not so, 500cc 2 strokes are still allowed....its just that they can't compete with the current four strokes. I think the four strokes have advanced tyre technology in different ways.
I was reading an article by ex gp geezer Mat Oxley the other day discussing the same sort of thing. Not many people know that 2 strokes are still allowed in the premier class. :scooter:

[sp3ed]

I thought that 2 strokes were still allowed, just the same as there are a whole heap of different weight rules depending on engine configurations.

So if the 500 2 strokes aren't competitive against the current 4 strokes, and the capacity of the 4 strokes is being reduced to improve saftey, then will the 500's begin to get competitive again and could we see things got round full circle.

Even if this isn't the case, the power delivery is going to get more peaky as the manufactures try to wring as much power as possible out of the smaller motor.

[F5 Dave]

The press had given the indication that 500s were phased out & not allowed after a certain date. Certainly no one would think of trying to compete against a bike twice the size & with freer exhaust restrictions & still with the weight penalties that had been slapped on the 500s.

That’s as unfair as 125 2-stroke MX bikes being put up against 250 4-strokes. -Oh hold on. More BullShite rules means that does happen.:shutup:

With the 800s they will become more peaky. Maybe they should have just reduced the noise output on the 1000s so quiet that all the R&D went into making quiet powerful bikes? Relevant technology for the road.

Or Peter Clifford’s Brilliant idea of making them 4 speed. That means you have to make them wide range & it limits the power & speed possible. Make for better road engines.

[pritch]

The 500 bikes were widely regarded as "evil".

Reducing the capacity to 800cc will encourage more peaky bikes which will be correspondingly more difficult to ride.

Go far enough down this road (in the name of safety remember) and we could eventually have "evil" four strokes...

[sAsLEX]

Not many people know that 2 strokes are still allowed in the premier class. :scooter:

Would never do too well in the GP as they have an enforced one race stand down in California

[SimJen]

Go far enough down this road (in the name of safety remember) and we could eventually have "evil" four strokes...

It'll never happen, electronic aids will get more prevalent and smooth everything out. Just like formula one........when the electronics fail they crash.

[Hillbilly]

So that's what keeps happenning to Casey Stoner! Yeah, bring back the 500s.

[Crasherfromwayback]

250 and 125's will go in a few years time as well.

I for one hope not. 250 GP bikes are pure bred race bikes that teach you how to ride and race properly. You can at least purchase one and if you're good enough (and with the help of some 'kit bits') race as a 'wild card' at the GP's!!

if they turn the 'feeder' classes into mini GP classes with 'Diesels' no-one will be able to afford to build one.

Long live the 125's and 250's!!!

[gav]

While the tyres might have improved, I think a 500GP bike would be 2 to 3 seconds a lap of the pace, and thats if Valentino Rossi was riding the 500!

[SimJen]

At Mugello for instance the 500's were doing 1:53's or so, while the Motogp bike of Gibernau set a fastest lap of 1:48.9 this year. Mugello is a high speed track though where the HP of both bikes could be well used to make up time on the long main straight.
Its probably the tighter tracks such as China etc that would have the four strokes kicking considerable ass, as they get on the power so much easier than the high side kings 500's.

[Hillbilly]

That's why I think they should be competing against other 500s and not the 4-stroke Superbikes. Don't know about the Superstocks though.

[gav]

Anyway, the two strokes have been allowed to compete in MotoGP up until now, but are banned from 1st January 2007. Didnt WCM drag a couple of old YZR500's out of a display last year? Didnt even qualify....

[madkeenandy]

Yeah, but that's bhp. The NSR 150 puts out about 40hp.

only 37 :bleh:

[F5 Dave]

Well seemingly a little over 20.

With a Tyga pipe & jet kit almost touches 30. Haha manufacturer's claims are such lies.

http://tyga-performance.com/images/dynographNSR150.jpg?osCsid=06bd4bad480b3dc6317703f 0c45fdf3b

The lower curve is stock & the upper curves are with pipe & with pipe & jetkit.

[madkeenandy]

Yer they reckon the fxr has 20hp i'll know after tonight when tony puts his on the dyno, i reckon it might put out 15 if the dyno was feeling optimistic:gob:

[Hillbilly]

Well seemingly a little over 20.

With a Tyga pipe & jet kit almost touches 30. Haha manufacturer's claims are such lies.

http://tyga-performance.com/images/dynographNSR150.jpg?osCsid=06bd4bad480b3dc6317703f 0c45fdf3b

The lower curve is stock & the upper curves are with pipe & with pipe & jetkit.

So if these are the real power figures on a dyno, where to themaufacturers get their figures? The NSR 150's are plentiful over here, but always sold as having 40hp. That includes privately.

[madkeenandy]

The NSR 150's are plentiful over here, but always sold as having 40hp. That includes privately.

I've never ever seen a NSR 150 in NZ, thought they never got here

edit: whoops sorry Hillbilly thought you were in NZ, duh....

[F5 Dave]

Well maybe the 20ish one is a restricted version & the main restriction is in the pipe that they change for other markets, which is why the Tyga pipe made so much diff. But would only be high 20s real world unrestricted.

The manufacturers dyno them to get the brochure number (probably the best of several) on an optimistic dyno & then work out how much loss occurs through the gearbox etc, usually about 22%. Erm lets check my math, = 31.2hp, so they had to find a real good one & dyno it unrestricted on an optimistic dyno. :done:

All quite feasible, but all complete bull.

[Hillbilly]

Yeah, it's amazing what's what's available. That includes RVF400's, TZR 250s,
CBR 250RRs, Aprilia RS 250s and so on. They're all ex-asia but not cheap. The RVF 400 is about $9,000 AUD along with the Aprilia RS 250. The others go for anywhere between $4,800 AUD to $6,900 AUD. Then there's the ORC which vary from State to Sate along with the road rules. (Or should I say roools)

[Motu]

All quite feasible, but all complete bull.

But as all manufacturers do it,it's a relative test and the numbers can be compared to other numbers with reasonable accuracy.If some clown used rearwheel hp figures they'd never sell a bike.Rear wheel hp is good if you are comparing the same bike on the same dyno,different bikes on different dynos are something you can't compare.

[F5 Dave]

Well it's the same with weight; a 166kg GSXR750 weighs 207 full of gas & ready to ride, it all just reeks of lies on top of the lies.

They all need to come with a lie sheet & a declaration of how much they are lying.

My head hurts.:bye:

[Kickaha]

Yer they reckon the fxr has 20hp i'll know after tonight when tony puts his on the dyno, i reckon it might put out 15 if the dyno was feeling optimistic:gob:

Whats your dodgy old dad up to?, trying to find some more HP before the BOB?




I've never ever seen a NSR 150 in NZ, thought they never got here.

I've seen one on trademe, but it was a while ago

[madkeenandy]

Whats your dodgy old dad up to?, trying to find some more HP before the BOB?


Nah Peter Knapton was taking his out, dad wanted to compare them.

Just got back, the standard FXR has the grand amount of 13.5 HP :(
While Peter's has 15 :gob: and has huge amounts of talk starting way before dad's in the rev range, and the little line stays up there when the line for the standard FXR drops (after 10,500 rpm to redline)

It'll be interesting to see how it goes at BOB, i doubt it'll keep up with DC tho.:chase:

[Kickaha]

Nah Peter Knapton was taking his out, dad wanted to compare them.

Just got back, the standard FXR has the grand amount of 13.5 HP :(
While Peter's has 15 :gob: and has huge amounts of talk starting way before dad's in the rev range, and the little line stays up there when the line for the standard FXR drops (after 10,500 rpm to redline)

It'll be interesting to see how it goes at BOB, i doubt it'll keep up with DC tho.:chase:

Knaptons bike is no faster than any of the other FXR out there though and has had his arse kicked by a few of them

DC's bike has 18hp and is a lot lighter

[gav]

There have been a few NSR150SP's in New Zealand, not sure if they were imported officially though. A guy from Nelson raced one at Ruapuna for a season, he also raced a R1 in F1 (Daniel Jansen, you'd know him Kick?)

[madkeenandy]

Knaptons bike is no faster than any of the other FXR out there though and has had his arse kicked by a few of them

DC's bike has 18hp and is a lot lighter

yer, but he put a different pipe on it and tuned the carb a little bit since last meeting.

[Buddha#81]

Nah Peter Knapton was taking his out, dad wanted to compare them.

Just got back, the standard FXR has the grand amount of 13.5 HP :(
While Peter's has 15 :gob: and has huge amounts of talk starting way before dad's in the rev range, and the little line stays up there when the line for the standard FXR drops (after 10,500 rpm to redline)

It'll be interesting to see how it goes at BOB, i doubt it'll keep up with DC tho.:chase:

Id rather be on an FXR for 55 mins than fighting DC's MB, but I am a fat lazy ficker.
Look out all............ my f5 weapon is completed and ready to go.

[Buddha#81]

yer, but he put a different pipe on it and tuned the carb a little bit since last meeting.

Will this be the first FXR to lunch itself in the quest of HP.

[Kickaha]

(Daniel Jansen, you'd know him Kick?)

I know of him, he was quite fast at one of the Greymouth Meetings


I am a fat lazy ficker.

yes,yes, that is correct you are :bleh:

[madkeenandy]

Look out all............ my f5 weapon is completed and ready to go.

What your pit bike? i thought it was 110cc... or is there something im missing here....

[F5 Dave]

Will this be the first FXR to lunch itself in the quest of HP.

Nah Dave D up in Auckers chernobyl'd his super worked FXR months ago. They do die with too many revs.

The flat torque (talk:nono: ) curve does help on longer track as it means the bike can pull taller -thus wider spaced- gearing & be in the power for a larger time than a higher output bike, that drops off peak & has to pull itself back up again. Trust me my 50 falls into the later category. Means a wide spread power bike is faster than it should be compared to a shorter track.

Sheesh, one moment we're talking about motoGP then all of a sudden we are blithering on about buckets. Cool!

[Ivan]

Well maybe the 20ish one is a restricted version & the main restriction is in the pipe that they change for other markets, which is why the Tyga pipe made so much diff. But would only be high 20s real world unrestricted.

The manufacturers dyno them to get the brochure number (probably the best of several) on an optimistic dyno & then work out how much loss occurs through the gearbox etc, usually about 22%. Erm lets check my math, = 31.2hp, so they had to find a real good one & dyno it unrestricted on an optimistic dyno. :done:

All quite feasible, but all complete bull.

Yeah and theres Horsepower at the crankand horespower at the rear wheel and as you are saying you lose alot more throught the gearbox etc

Ill get my book from tech that explains it well

[k14]

Yeah and theres Horsepower at the crankand horespower at the rear wheel and as you are saying you lose alot more throught the gearbox etc

Ill get my book from tech that explains it well
Yeah friction is one of those concepts thats pretty hard to understand aye :yes:

[Hillbilly]

This might be of some help:


conversion units of power
kilogram force-Newton and Newton-kilogram force (UNI 7202-73)
1 kgf = 9.80665 kg*m/s2 = 9.80665 N - 1N = 1/9.80665 kgf = 0.101971621 kgf

calorie-joule and joule-calorie (UNI 7203-73)
1 cal = 41868 W*s = 4.1868 J - 1 J = 1 W*s = 1/41868 cal = 0.2388459 cal

cv-kilowatt e kilowatt-cv (UNI 7204-73)
1 CV = 75 kgf*m/s = 75 * 9.80665 N*m/s = 0.73549875 kW
1 kW = 1/0.73549875 CV = 1.359621617 CV

kilocalorie hour-watt e watt-kilocalorie hour (UNI 7205-73)
1 kcal/h = 4186.8/3600 W = 1.163 W - 1 W = 1/1.163 kcal/h = 0.85984523 kcal/h

1 watt = 1 joule/second.
One watt corresponds to the necessary power for lift of 1 meter a mass of 102 grams in 1 second.

1 kW = 0.7457 HP 1 HP = 1.34102 kW
1 CV = 1.01387 HP 1 HP = 0.98631 CV
1 kilogrammeter = 0.138 foot pound 1 foot pound = 7.233 kilogrammeters

[diesel pig]

Just got back, the standard FXR has the grand amount of 13.5 HP :(


Gee, Diesel Pig maded 13.5hp on the same dyno years ago and that was before the Megas:devil2: Got to get her going again since she's way cooler than any FXR:headbang: Aye Kickaha.

[madkeenandy]

grrrrr... you're just jealous...