Shop Class as Soulcraft [Archive]

SlashWylde

5th September 2006, 11:22

I came accross this (http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/13/crawford.htm)article today whilst browsing the web.

It struck a chord with me as it echoes my own thoughts and concerns (albeit more eloquently than I would have written) on the shift in modern thinking and practice away from valuing a practical knowledge base to emphasising academic, intellectual and theoretical pursuit alone. The so called 'Knowledge Economy'.

This is of particular concern to me personally as the structure of my electronics and software degree course is changing dramatically to allow fewer class hours. The net result being that some topics and labs are having to be cut from the course, and those labs we do are simulated on a computer. Compare this with the NZCE I did 10 years ago where almost all our labs were in the laboratory with components, high voltage, bits of wire and powerful motors etc

Modern folk don't tend to repair things when they are broken, or make things themselves as the perception/reality is that it is cheaper, quicker and easier to simply buy a new one. Sewing, darning, baking, woodwork etc are becoming rarities in the modern home.

Interestingly for us, the author of the article writes from the perspective of a motorcycle mechanic, and he reminds me of Robert Pirsig's seminal book 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'.

Enjoy...

James Deuce

5th September 2006, 11:38

Swoop

5th September 2006, 11:59

nudemetalz

5th September 2006, 12:31

Well as many will know, I've started my own business and craft aluminium furnishings by hand (and machines as well). I get a lot of responses like "you really made that??". "Well why not?"

You're right though, the DIY attitude is fast disappearing and it's such a shame.

Flyingpony

5th September 2006, 15:21

You're right though, the DIY attitude is fast disappearing and it's such a shame.
Especially for simple stuff like changing engine oil.

Eventually I've got a project that'll stretch my DIY ability - fixing a chassis which requires rusted sections to be removed and reconstructured. Been quoted $1000-1200 for a shop to fix it or I could DIY for slightly less. Would be heaps less if I owned the required equipment and had the metal work skills this job would require.

To DIY, I'll need to buy an arc welder $200-300, buy sheet metal $???, buy other tools I don't have $???, learn to weld $???, and finally research how to chop and rebuild the chassis to WOF standard. Boy have I bitten a lot off. God only knows how much time I'll need to invest to figure out what to do and how to do it, and finally to actually do it. Would be much easier just to pay the shop and they'll have it ready the following day, but where's the fun in that!?

HenryDorsetCase

5th September 2006, 16:24

The Knowledge economy does NOT in any way encourage intellectual pursuits. The Knowledge economy has largely stripped Universities of pure theoretical scientists, both social and physical.

The Knowledge economy is about pumping out B.Com and LLB grads. Nothing else.

absolutely right. and universities cull their "arts" papers like philosophy and languages etc in the name of usefulness: ppl at Uni now are so focused on getting the bit of paper and the "great" career....its really sad.

Of course they're fucked if their fridge breaks down, or their dunny won't flush.

HenryDorsetCase

5th September 2006, 16:28

One of the reasons I really like Monster Garage (and to a lesser extent American Chopper): people doing stuff. I actually really admire Jesse James: rough start, but hard work pays off. (OK theres a lot of spin and bullshit, but I think Jesse is the real deal).

also he does donuts in his matt black Ferrari, and is married to Sandy Bullock: how did he end up living my life????

Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)

5th September 2006, 16:48

Interestingly for us, the author of the article writes from the perspective of a motorcycle mechanic, and he reminds me of Robert Pirsig's seminal book 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'.

Enjoy...[/QUOTE]

I read that book when I was 20 - and thought it was great - always stuck in my mind!! I must find a copy and read it again!

inlinefour

5th September 2006, 17:06

Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)

5th September 2006, 17:08

People wonder why the price of a plumber or carpenter is getting higher. Schools are pushing the academic path, which is fine for some students, but others would be perfectly suited to a more hands-on career. Schools can no longer offer this unless it is a very unique one. One or two local schools are investing in their technology blocks, but they require teachers with skills in those areas and not academics who are happy to use bits of string and lumps of clay to teach "technology".

Australia is going full circle with this, and is having to re-establish technical schools where area high schools can send their students to learn in a specific topic area. Undoubtably some of the "rough diamonds" will be sent there, but usually these people can shine in that environment.

We have seen the results of a system that pushes out masses of heavily qualified people for a small amount of jobs...
"Would you like fries with that?"

Since when have schools ever provided subjects for the trades?? actually for specific careers? My limited belief is that schools teach you basics of reading, writing, and learning things by memory, and subjects like science taught me how to light a bunsen burner and make other pretty fires!! Biology was always trying to decipher that the gorgeous looking teacher had 6 kids!!! and he was still young (bout 30!!)

But then I went to an all girls catholic private school (NOT BY CHOICE I can tell you). So with that and my father's bleating - our role was to breed - well I stuffed up there big time!!! they never told me what I could do if I couldn't breed - guess I still searching YEAH RIGHT. Got a life instead!! School never prepared me for the real world.

The shortage of tradesman was predicted at least a decade ago when they fiddled around with the apprenticeship programs - and now they are getting all arty farty where tradesmen have to have admin/bus degrees as well.

There are people that are not academic but are the best tradesmen out.
One husband (hehe sounds great) stood on the side of the road, while I changed the tyre on the car (he was academic kind - in fact he read a book while waiting for me to finish). I was the one that made sure the bike had oil and maintained it mechanically.
God I'm on overtime 5.03pm = stop waffling now!!! lol

Swoop

5th September 2006, 17:31

Since when have schools ever provided subjects for the trades?? actually for specific careers?

Welll.... Back in the old days, intermediate schools had metalwork, woodwork, sewing and cooking. The entire form-1 school rotated through those classes like it or not.
Colleges offered metalwork, woodwork, technical drawing, etc.

I have had schoolkids who have spent an entire semester carving a lump of wood down to a pile of shavings. More like a course on advanced vandalism really...

The trades were f*cked over in the '90s in 2 ways. First, most of them did away with apprenticeships (worked fine for over 200 years - but politicians knew best...) but luckily some did not!
Secondly we were suckered into "Unit Standards". A way of breaking everything down into easily digested areas of learning that fails to interlink with others and also provides no incentive to strive for better quality and better results. A "pass" is all that is required... strangely similar to higher qualifications where everyone is finding out what the minimum is to pass and just getting that. Hooray - you have a bare minimum pass, but you are now a qualified academic with a MA... Here's your spatula - strive to be "employee of the month" and your picture will be on the wall...

I prefer to deal with down to earth folks. The carpenter with the biggest buttcrack, the mechanic with the greasiest overalls and the down-to-earth bastards driving a ute full of tools!

Schools provided the flow of people to these trades.

Colapop

5th September 2006, 17:39

I agree that the practical people are fewer than they once were but it is heartening to see that there are events like the Red Bull Trolley GP that still bring out the inventive among us.

sAsLEX

5th September 2006, 17:56

I agree that the practical people are fewer than they once were but it is heartening to see that there are events like the Red Bull Trolley GP that still bring out the inventive among us.

Access to tools and thing like OSH make some stuff difficult!

Making a little project at the mo and was going to turn it all up myself but getting access to the gear is a pain in the arse, plus I have little experiance as I couldnt take metal work etc at school as that would of stopped other more important classes such as two math, three sciences etc that had to be taken through to get the quals needed to get in to uni etc

So using CAD skills learnt at uni/self taught to put ideas to paper and with a little/lot of help from cadanimal gettin those in the know to do it.

Waylander

5th September 2006, 18:30

Should get my mom into this thread. She's got her doctorate in KNowledge Managment wich is basically about Knoledge economy and what not. I don't understand any of it myself.

James Deuce

5th September 2006, 19:46

Should get my mom into this thread. She's got her doctorate in KNowledge Managment wich is basically about Knoledge economy and what not. I don't understand any of it myself.

It's away of making people who would be bereft of any useful skills if the power was turned off, feel important.

People like me.

Hitcher

5th September 2006, 19:49

I blame the Labour government.

James Deuce

5th September 2006, 19:50

I blame Steve Jobs.

Ixion

5th September 2006, 19:52

I blame Mr Biff. Cos he's Welch, it's what they're for . Why mess with 800 years of tradition.

Colapop

5th September 2006, 19:52

Access to tools and thing like OSH make some stuff difficult!

Making a little project at the mo and was going to turn it all up myself but getting access to the gear is a pain in the arse, plus I have little experiance as I couldnt take metal work etc at school as that would of stopped other more important classes such as two math, three sciences etc that had to be taken through to get the quals needed to get in to uni etc

So using CAD skills learnt at uni/self taught to put ideas to paper and with a little/lot of help from cadanimal gettin those in the know to do it.
It's been said before on here re: doing "stuff" - the best way to learn is by getting stuck in. Find or create a plan and as long as it's not too complicated to start with then you shouldn't have a problem. Thing is, being a clever student, as you are, your project is probably going to be a little more complicated than most people would attempt. If I don't know how to do something I ask, then have a go, then ask again, have another go then pay someone to fix my mistakes!

mstriumph

5th September 2006, 19:55

The problem is in society's values.

Society projects the belief that academics are somehow 'superior' to artisans and craftsmen ............ and regards with something approaching contempt those who earn a living by getting their hands dirty

Until our thinking changes and 'dirty' is no longer used as an insult the price of plumbers, carpenters, mechanics and bakers will continue to rise ..... and their scarcity increase.

jrandom

5th September 2006, 20:01

... structure of my electronics and software degree course is changing dramatically... NZCE I did 10 years ago.

It's common knowledge in The Industry (tm) that chaps with NZCEs outrank chaps without, due to the much higher likelihood of their being able to do useful work.

Look, folks, in the end, it just comes down to individuals.

If you don't like the way things are going, learn what you need to know, do a bit of academic nancying around, and get a job lecturing at the university or polytechnic of your choice. Mold young minds in your image.

I torment myself regularly with the idea of doing just that, but I couldn't afford the pay cut. Vanilla lecturers without tenure are the bottom of the food chain.

But someone's gotta do it for love, and one day I will.

Stop bitching about the system, gentlemen, and start making a difference. Good teachers are like terrorists; they wage asymmetrically-effective warfare against shit that needs to go down.

James Deuce

5th September 2006, 20:02

Society projects the belief that academics are somehow 'superior' to artisans and craftsmen ............ and regards with something approaching contempt those who earn a living by getting their hands dirty

No, no, no! Society doesn't value academics at all! A modern University is almost utterly bereft of the spirit of collegiate exploration. It is totally about churning out graduate "knowledge workers". Not people that create knowledge, but people that manipulate the media in which knowledge resides. People that create knowledge have been kicked out of Universities because they refuse to to work on projects that will make money for the University's corporate benfactors.

Society wants their kids to be Doctors, and Lawyers, and "Businessmen".

Because they don't have to grovel in the shit, or get dirty, or maybe hurt themselves while they make someone else's life better. Instead they can farm money, using the platforms provided by the "knowledge workers".

In the meantime, the fundamentals of what makes a society work, like roads, energy networks, dry ,well ventilated housing, and food distribution networks decay to the point of failure.

Motu

5th September 2006, 20:05

Until our thinking changes and 'dirty' is no longer used as an insult the price of plumbers, carpenters, mechanics and bakers will continue to rise ..... and their scarcity increase.

Until our thinking changes.....and people stop thinking that tradesmen are out to rip them off,overcharge,charge for work never done,damage property to get the repair.Until our thinking changes....and people stop holding tradesmen responsable for problems not caused by them,but a fault already existing,blaming when there is no one to blame.Until our thinking changes.....and people stop thinking that $60 is overcharging,when the work they do themselves is charged out at an even higher rate......then you may get some poor suckers back into trades.I love my job - I hate what it's become.....

jrandom

5th September 2006, 20:12

'dirty' is no longer used as an insult the price of plumbers, carpenters, mechanics and bakers will continue to rise...

You know, I reckon that's an urban myth.

I don't know anyone with a lack of respect for guys in those professions.

James Deuce

5th September 2006, 20:14

Dead right Fish. It's FINDING a good one that's a pain in the arse. They're usually doing 90% of the work at 50% of the rates the blokes that never turn up.

jrandom

5th September 2006, 20:16

They're usually doing 90% of the work at 50% of the rates the blokes that never turn up.

I tried, and I tried, but I just can't parse that sentence.

Are you pissed?

Goddammit. *I* should be pissed. Where's my fucking Laphroaig?

Hitcher

5th September 2006, 20:16

You know, I reckon that's an urban myth.

I don't know anyone with a lack of respect for guys in those professions.

Thus spoke Zarathustra. Hmmm. Laphroaig...

jrandom

5th September 2006, 20:20

Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Bom, bom, bom... ba BUUUUUMMM!!!

Dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum.

Bom, bom, bom... ba BAAAAAAAAAUUUM!!!

DA DA DUMMM, DAAAAAAA... DADA DAAAAA!

(Bom, bom, bom)

DADA DAAAAAA, DAAAAAAAA DA DA DAAAA!

(Dum dum dum!)

DA DA DAAA... DAAAA DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Hitcher

5th September 2006, 20:24

Bom, bom, bom... ba BUUUUUMMM!!!

Careful, you'll get the drummers all excited...

But not a bad rendition of Richard Strauss' trinitarian chords.

jrandom

5th September 2006, 20:29

Careful, you'll get the drummers all excited...

Nah. That'd be the "Dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum" part.

Anyway, everyone knows that 'drummers' can't stand playing percussion in classical compositions. Cultural overdose, innit. Now pass the doobie, and get the fuck away from me with those hair clippers.

far queue

5th September 2006, 20:32

Eventually I've got a project that'll stretch my DIY ability - fixing a chassis which requires rusted sections to be removed and reconstructured. Been quoted $1000-1200 for a shop to fix it or I could DIY for slightly less. Would be heaps less if I owned the required equipment and had the metal work skills this job would require.

To DIY, I'll need to buy an arc welder $200-300, buy sheet metal $???, buy other tools I don't have $???, learn to weld $???, and finally research how to chop and rebuild the chassis to WOF standard. Boy have I bitten a lot off. God only knows how much time I'll need to invest to figure out what to do and how to do it, and finally to actually do it. Would be much easier just to pay the shop and they'll have it ready the following day, but where's the fun in that!?When you've completed this DIY job you'll have the satisfaction of having completed it yourself, will have learnt a lot along the way, and will have some new tools at the end of it, and will still have saved some money. You will thus be better prepared for any similar job that comes along in the future and will save lots of money next time.

Hitcher

5th September 2006, 20:33

I have seen way too much of Tommy Lee of late. What was Pamela thinking?

Goodness. This thread is back on topic...

jrandom

5th September 2006, 20:36

I have seen way too much of Tommy Lee of late.

You too, eh?

*I* reckon he's a base-shaver.

Hitcher

5th September 2006, 20:42

Perhaps he's saving that bit for the final...

Swoop

5th September 2006, 21:25

...and get a job lecturing at the university or polytechnic of your choice. Mold young minds in your image.

Stop bitching about the system, gentlemen, and start making a difference.

Done.

Next.

TLDV8

6th September 2006, 00:14

It's common knowledge in The Industry (tm) that chaps with NZCEs outrank chaps without, due to the much higher likelihood of their being able to do useful work.

Look, folks, in the end, it just comes down to individuals.

If you don't like the way things are going, learn what you need to know, do a bit of academic nancying around, and get a job lecturing at the university or polytechnic of your choice. Mold young minds in your image.

What industry is that,certainly not the one i am in....No wonder the foundation is crumbling due to a top heavy society,one that seems devoted to riding the gravy train...We have 10 or more years of BS polytechnic and Uni courses based on job descriptions pulled out of a hat.The place is over run with people who's skills are nothing but pieces of paper and the cookie cutter continues to stamp them out simply because it is easy with quick turn around.... Just more numbers to put on some government statistic form.

You have to wonder what this Country (and Australia) is coming to when as a Boilermaker,you are interviewed by some manicured nailed prat with no clue about the job and who's main concern is your CV's layout and not it's content.

TLDV8

6th September 2006, 00:40

Especially for simple stuff like changing engine oil.

Eventually I've got a project that'll stretch my DIY ability - fixing a chassis which requires rusted sections to be removed and reconstructured. Been quoted $1000-1200 for a shop to fix it or I could DIY for slightly less. Would be heaps less if I owned the required equipment and had the metal work skills this job would require.

You have nothing to lose,skills gained are forever.Dreams are free,reality costs.

jrandom

6th September 2006, 07:09

What industry is that,certainly not the one i am in...

Sparky shit, electronics design and manufacture.

I'm not saying everyone acknowledges it, but it's a pretty common viewpoint.

SlashWylde

6th September 2006, 09:33

...Society wants their kids to be Doctors, and Lawyers, and "Businessmen"....

Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky,
Little boxes, little boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

And the people in the houses
All go to the university,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
And there's doctors and there's lawyers
And business executives,
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

And they all play on the golf-course,
And drink their Martini dry,
And they all have pretty children,
And the children go to school.
And the children go to summer camp
And then to the university,
And they all get put in boxes
And they all come out the same.

And the boys go into business,
And marry, and raise a family,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

- Malvina Reynolds.

I'm more familliar with Pete Seeger's rendition but seemingly it was true back then in the '60s(?) and it's still true today. :no:

SlashWylde

6th September 2006, 09:47

Sparky shit, electronics design and manufacture.

I'm not saying everyone acknowledges it, but it's a pretty common viewpoint.

True, but the problem is that the pay scale in most technical organisations is ridgidly structured around the level of qualifications one has. With my NZCE and Diploma in Electronics I was the go-to guy who could fix pretty much anything in the factory, was part of a team making huge process improvements etc, but I hit a ceiling in the pay scale simply because I didn't have an engineering degree. This fact also meant that I reached a limit as to how far I could climb the company ladder because senior management didn't rate my knowledge and abilities without that majick piece of paper. They'd hire new BE grads who didn't know shit, and then I had to swallow my anger and play nice when these pimply faced little boys would come and ask me how to use a soldering iron because they didn't learn how at Uni. Fuck 'em!

This is a large part of the reason I'm now studying for a BE. I want the knowledge, the piece of paper, and the ability to open doors that were previously closed to me. I want to be the best engineer I can be, and use my 9 years of production engineering experience as a design and project management engineer.