It appears the Otara attack was unprovoked

[Jonathan_D]

"Riki Mafi died in the early hours of Tuesday morning after being beaten with a baseball bat in the Otara town centre on Saturday night.

Detective Senior Sergeant Pizzini said it appeared the attack was unprovoked."

NZ herald 1.00pm Wednesday September 6, 2006.

WTF is goin on there? A couple of tough guys with nothing better to do than kill someone?

Did anyone see this guy's mother on TV? Basically she said that gangs = cowards... "stand alone" she said.

I agree. At least there's a chance then, however slim it might be.

[Beemer]

Second time in less than a month where someone minding their own business got whacked and killed. Looks like this kid was a decent sort - and I bet the accountant or lawyer or whatever he was who was hit with a baseball bat while walking home wasn't scum either.

There was a time when this sort of violence was only seen in America. Glad we don't have that kind in our neck of the woods - and by kind I am not implying anything racial, just the type who resorts to this kind of violence.

[Jonathan_D]

There was a time! it might have been before mine... but you see the old black and white (no pun intended) history of New Zealand and everyone seemed to be getting along fine.

When did it become a gang of people murdering someone for no reason?

Too little to do? Maybe not, most people are asleep at the time this happened.
Was it P?
Or was it a pathetic attempt at machoism in a world which pretends not to have time for the weak?
But look at einstein, annan, even bloomin hitler... these guys were'nt exactly Mr Universe. They used their intellect to get noticed.
When do people become so angry that this happens?

This thing really bugs me. I've walked around all parts of Auckland both in groups and alone and and nothing has ever happened... gives those south of the Bombays a good reason not to like the place... also gives those who live here a good reason to think about why this happens...

[StoneChucker]

It is really sad when a life (any life) gets wasted, and it's even more unfortunate if it's a case of a good person being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Why should there be any wrong places!!!

I can't almost tell you what may have happened: Guy walking down the street, happens to look at the "tough" "guys" hanging around causing trouble. Gang group take offense at being looked at (I'll get back to this), turn on their scumfaced staunch attitudes and harrass the guy, telling him they'll "step him out". They'll shout things like "do you wanna go c**t", and then lay into him, in a fair 3 or 4(+) to 1. Then when they've sealed his fate, they can walk off all staunch & proud, thinking that they're like the scum they see depicted in shitty rap/RnB music videos.
Fcuk, they probably think there's nothing wrong with it, dad does it so it must be right.

I have never understood why certain groups get aggressive, confrontational and plain violent if you just look at them. They take it as an insult or fight catalyst, and then their culture takes over, overiding any shred of decency they may have had. Getting arrested is a flipping joke, repeat offenders just bounce in and out of prisons, social aid and rehab programs. How does one recognise a person they know while out walking (or anywhere for that matter) without looking at peoples faces briefly.

[LilSel]

I had a wee run in whilst out working overtime on monday night (driver/security for meter reader on night reads)... A group of kids with nothing better to do decided to take exception to myself and colleague and approx 10 of them (teens and young kids) walked out and stood on the road, partially blocking it (all had weapons of some kind, huge sticks, whips and a golf club!!) I cruised up towards them slowly... waiting for them to move... well... then the verbal abuse started, some of the kids would have been no older than 9!! and the foul language was just unbelievable. When they started approaching the car, I seriously thought:gob: 'Oh shit... this isnt going to be good'!...I saw a chance (gap) to get outta there and threw the 4x4 into gear and took off. Now I have to fill in 3 pages of paperwork bout it too:angry:

What is really disturbing is whilst finishing our run we saw no less than 15 other kids (in small goups) roaming around with what seems to be the latest trend, whips of some kind. (anybody else noticed this??!?!).Certainly doesnt make one feel safe, we were just minding our own business and doing our job. The incident mentioned above occured at around 6.30pm, it wasnt even dark!! where are the parents?? do they know wtf their kids are doing?? and what they are carrying with them??!

As with what happened with the young kid 'Riki', innocent people are being caught in the crossfire!! something needs to be done about it... and fast!!

[kro]

I too think this is sad, and having been subject to some of the "gangsta" rap music that's currently out there, I cannot begin to think how messed up some of these kids are nowdays. Don't get me wrong, the music plays a part, but as has been told in countless threads of this nature...... where are the parents?, what are they doing while their children wave golf clubs and abuse people doing their jobs?.

Gangs are on the most part quite pathetic, very vocal and tough in the pack situation, but alone, 99% of them are sniveling cowards if confronted.

I stopped for gas in East Tamaki a few years back while on the FZR, and when I came out, two "gang" youths were standing beside my bike, and when I went out to the forecourt, I hoped they were just admiring the bike, but they wouldn't move, ended up getting lippy, then actually made a direct threat with a knife, demanding money, and keys to the bike. I swung my helmet in a wide upwards arc, and put the "knife boy" on his arse, out cold, then with enough adenaline to fuel a jet fighter pumping thru me, I ripped into the second kid (verbally), who was maybe 15 or 16 , who ended up crying.

Not 60 seconds before that, the two of them were "the man", but standing alone, they became little scared children.

[jazbug5]

I know that it's hard not to generalise about 'types' of people when this sort of topic is discussed, but I will just relate in brief a story told to me by a friend recently, because it made me really think.

She was leaving a club with some friends; there were too many of them to all pile into the car that was picking them up, so she told them to go, deliver the first person, and then come back for her. When they had disappeared from view, she was suddenly catapulted into a dark alley by some guy who had appeared to be walking past.
There was a group of guys waiting there. They proceeded, in a very orchestrated and well prepared manner, to attempt exactly what you might imagine they had in mind.
Fortunately for her (and decidely not fortunately for them) she is a real fighter; as she fell to the ground, she found a glass bottle which she... shall I say, performed 'radical genital surgery' with on the nearest guy..?

The thing is, these were not 'yobs' as you might imagine them to have been. They were 'well to do professional types', and not local. Her feeling was that this was a weekend 'sport' to them, that they left their own area together to go to market towns like this one, seemingly safe in the knowlege (or so they thought) that they weren't the type to be suspected, and it appeared they were very well practised, used to acting as a team.

In fact, as she ran out of the alley in the confusion, it was a group of 'hooded yobs' that ran over to help her out, and chased the attackers away.

Interesting, no?

[WINJA]

Second time in less than a month where someone minding their own business got whacked and killed. Looks like this kid was a decent sort - and I bet the accountant or lawyer or whatever he was who was hit with a baseball bat while walking home wasn't scum either.

There was a time when this sort of violence was only seen in America. Glad we don't have that kind in our neck of the woods - and by kind I am not implying anything racial, just the type who resorts to this kind of violence.

I DUNNO , I FEEL LIKE BASHING A FEW LAWERS MYSELF

[98tls]

There was a time when this sort of violence was only seen in America. Glad we don't have that kind in our neck of the woods - and by kind I am not implying anything racial, just the type who resorts to this kind of violence.
Wont be long before you do.........even in little old oamaru we have gangs of the little fuckers running around causing mayhem......i reckon its the end result of the mary poppins mentality...if they had there arses kicked when the shit started we would all be better off i reckon....

[Storm]

Fuckin oath- the little shits know there wont be consequences if they get caught, and have never had the line drawn for them growing up. Bring back capital punishment!

[sAsLEX]

These people have not progressed beyond primitive society, they still live in the pack mentality as they lack the individual intelligence to go it alone, so they form these "gangs" and mindlessly follow american rapping culture.

And what are police doing?! Suggest you wear neutral colours! what is a nuetral colour FFS! If it was my area and I was mayor I would ask the police to stop this then if they couldn't ask the Government to bring in the Army, courage fades in the face of gunfire!

[sAsLEX]

They should round up these little dickweeds the country over, set a curfew for the young people or something, and if caught off to do Limeted Service Volunteer (6 weeks of learning basic military training marching discipline and the like and having to deal not with a friendly constable who is powerless but with the god like Sergant Majors who to them are god) course in Burnam or Wiberia in winter I say!

[Patrick]

Beamer and 98TLS... gotta break it to you... these "Street Gangs" are here already and have been around for some time. The Pizza delivery guy killed by the 14 year old is a prime example and that was a while back now. We see it all the time, particularly in South Auckland, but actually in any shitty scumbag area of any town, including here in the Naki. Most choose, conveniently, not to see it for what it is.

West side and East side are popular down here, the Crips and all the other ethnic kiddie gangs in Auckland are many and varied.

Giving them media attention only increases the advertising/recruiting drives for them.

[SARGE]

its all lies .. you cant kill anyone if you dont have access to a gun..at least thats what the stinkin hippies have told me for years..

maybe they were wrong and mankind is by nature a predatory animal who will find a way to kill someone, whether it be with a baseball bat, a samuri sword or by folding them up in a suitcase and chucking them in the harbor...

funny thing is .. all the recent murders were either very old, very young or set upon by a gang..

stinks of cowardice of the highest calibre..

go New Zealand..!!!

[Swoop]

... roaming around with what seems to be the latest trend, whips of some kind.

Seems like the strap has been taken off the teachers and given to the kiddies to use...

[Zed]

They should round up these little dickweeds the country over, set a curfew for the young people or something, and if caught off to do Limeted Service Volunteer (6 weeks of learning basic military training marching discipline and the like and having to deal not with a friendly constable who is powerless but with the god like Sergant Majors who to them are god) course in Burnam or Wiberia in winter I say!Alex, you'll fit right in with the coming new world order where those (young & old) who don't conform to the 'new' rules will be rounded up and sent away. What you are proposing is a police state where a curfew is imposed to *control* the unruly...yip, you'll fit right in!

The type of behaviour many of the posts in this thread highlight should shock us all, but because our society has become so desensitised to such acts of violence and outright inhumane treatment, people aren't moved to do anything about it, and if any of you think things are going to improve think again.

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

[dnos]

Wow, stuff like this is getting more and more common. And like has been said above, we are becoming used to it. Sure i think that its terrible the amount of murders occuring and all the violence and gang activity. But i am becoming used to hearing about it in the news. Very sad.

I believe that parents are the ones who could have the biggest effect on these types, used to be that EVERY kid or teenager I knew was scared of their mother and father. But now i see both younger kids and older kids who wouldn't give a shit what their parents said and flick them off. Wish I knew what a solution would be but don't.

[Beemer]

Beemer and 98TLS... gotta break it to you... these "Street Gangs" are here already and have been around for some time.

I know they have been around for a while, what I meant was that in our quiet rural settlement, we don't have gangs of yobbos roaming around. Go into Levin and it's another story - any hour of the day or night and you see what are obviously school-aged children roaming around in packs, looking to cause trouble, whether it's smashing someone's letterbox or mugging them.

Hey Zed, thanks for reminding us the end is nigh. Don't forget to bring out your robes and sickle - I'll be in pub if you're looking for me.

[The_Dover]

Fuckin porch monkeys.

I say we send Zed in as a missionary to pacify and convert them, failing that he can bash them about with his bible for a bit and give them the "christian learn".

If it all goes wrong and he ends up in the pot at least they'll have a good feed and be too stuffed to cause more trouble for a few days.

[marty]

cops being charged for kicking young kids arses and telling them to fuck off home. mum and dads are going to be charged for clipping their kids round the ears. what do peopl expect? i don't condone a police state, but i do condone old fashioned values and respect. the old 'unlawful assembly' law should be used more often, but it creats SO much paperwork, and many of these groups are under 17, so the can't be charged anyway, their parents don't care, neither does cyfs.

in the not-too-distant future we will see street cops routinely armed with side arms, (there are a good number already doing so) then it will come down to individuals protecting themselves with their weapon of choice.

[Motu]

what is a nuetral colour FFS!

Green? Well,it is on my bike anyway.

This stuff goes back a long time,I don't know how long,but certainly back to my years as a young teenager in the late '60's.By the time we were 16 the kids I had gone to school with all my life were getting a little out of hand - they were roaming the City streets (not our suburbs) at night in cars (V8s,real ones),they'd find a couple of guys walking,call them out and then set on them...they'd also trash cars too.I decided I didn't want to go to jail just for hanging around with my mates....so I started hanging around with people who on the surface may of seemed worse,but were really great people and still loyal friends today.

But killings were very rare,and young people were seldom involved.I have been recently reminded of what was considered a very serious crime in about 1971 - an old guy was robbed and left in his car,stabbed 17 times with a screwdriver,seriously injured,but not dead.I knew guys who were with the group earlier that night,there was some drama in the car park and they went their seperate ways.The 2 guys who did it went to my school,and some of my friends hung around with them,so I knew who they were.So over 30 years later when my family history was being researched I find both these names as part of my family - it's possible they hung around together because they were cousins,and unknown cousins of mine! One of them had the exact same name as the guy who killed the old man in Wellington...and if I was shown his photo without knowing I'd say - ''hey,he looks just like....''

But this stuff is now far more common - I don't feel safe out at night anymore....

[sAsLEX]

Alex, you'll fit right in with the coming new world order where those (young & old) who don't conform to the 'new' rules will be rounded up and sent away. What you are proposing is a police state where a curfew is imposed to *control* the unruly...yip, you'll fit right in!


ok your solution is?


Aint new rules

sure one of your commandments states "thou shall not kill" does it not!?

[Paul in NZ]

in the not-too-distant future we will see street cops routinely armed with side arms, (there are a good number already doing so) then it will come down to individuals protecting themselves with their weapon of choice.

Ah... The ultimate expression of freedom?

I think this thread needs to be read with the Progressive / union one.

To survive in this country now both parents need to work at least one job and often there is no one at home to check on what the kids are up to.

These kids find solace in dreams of material wealth but have no hope of ever earning enough $$ to obtain half of what they see on TV. The gangs have power over turf and turf is important when the distribution of drugs is the business. The street gangs are feeder gangs to the patched ones etc etc.

Don't worry though. Helen Clarke, Don Brash and the members of the roundtable can all afford really big fences and armed guards so thank goodness the 'leadership' will be OK and will continue to send encouraging messages to the embattled (and shrinking) middle classes.

[Hitcher]

Should make it mandatory for all pedestrians to wear helmets after 10:00pm.

[Hitcher]

I know they have been around for a while, what I meant was that in our quiet rural settlement, we don't have gangs of yobbos roaming around. Go into Levin and it's another story - any hour of the day or night and you see what are obviously school-aged children roaming around in packs, looking to cause trouble, whether it's smashing someone's letterbox or mugging them.

Yep. The hoodies were out in force in Levin at 2:00am Saturday morning. Shuffling the streets with random purpose...

[Patrick]

ok your solution is?


Aint new rules

sure one of your commandments states "thou shall not kill" does it not!?

Shame it doesn't say... "Thou shalt kick the little shites arse all the way home and if mum/dad or both don't care, thou shalt kick their arse too..." and, "if they were to complain about thine kicking, thou shalt receive another kicking from thine neighbour..."

Just a thought...

[Macktheknife]

WARNING: RANT FOLLOWS


Gangs are on the most part quite pathetic, very vocal and tough in the pack situation, but alone, 99% of them are sniveling cowards if confronted.

I stopped for gas in East Tamaki a few years back while on the FZR, and when I came out, two "gang" youths were standing beside my bike, and when I went out to the forecourt, I hoped they were just admiring the bike, but they wouldn't move, ended up getting lippy, then actually made a direct threat with a knife, demanding money, and keys to the bike. I swung my helmet in a wide upwards arc, and put the "knife boy" on his arse, out cold, then with enough adenaline to fuel a jet fighter pumping thru me, I ripped into the second kid (verbally), who was maybe 15 or 16 , who ended up crying.

Not 60 seconds before that, the two of them were "the man", but standing alone, they became little scared children.

Sadly this is more true than we realise... the inner child is traumatised by the loveless upbringing and poor role models in the environment of the young person. Really it is not their fault at all, just a predictable result of the breakdown of the family unit and lack of moral and social grounding. We should all feel sorry for them and try to be more understanding of their needs and insecurities.
Or you could choose a different approach....
These little shits have no understanding of consequence, what is required to confront this problem is a nightly patrol of commited, confident and capable adults. A large group who are willing and able to confront and control these idiots and teach them that these actions are not acceptable in our society. Not by beating the crap out of them (unless in self defence) but just by showing a community resolved to eradicating this kind of problem.
All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.
Instead of hiding in our homes wailing and moaning about how it isn't safe any more and how this used to be such a nice place etc etc. Get off our collective fat arse and take some action to prevent the situation from deteriorating further. Organise a group of locals who are committed to making a difference in your area/street/town and make a roster for street patrols with torches and cell phones and cameras. All it really takes is for people to stand up and DO something to show they actually WILL NOT TOLERATE this behaviour.
But this is apathetic NZ, so most likely people will just sit around and bitch about how it isn't their job/responsibility.
They will wail and gnash their teeth about the police being understaffed and underfunded, then they will go lock their doors and windows and hope the 'bad types' dont visit them tonight.
:angry:

[Paul in NZ]

The odd thing is, I was discussing this with the office conservative christian this morning.

We disagree on many many things and yet, taken as a whole and if the behaviour of this gang and their ilk are taken as being at one end of the spectrum and my co workers is the other - I'm a lot closer to him than the others... Scary......

[Paul in NZ]

WARNING: RANT FOLLOWS


Sadly this is more true than we realise... the inner child is traumatised by the loveless upbringing and poor role models in the environment of the young person. Really it is not their fault at all, just a predictable result of the breakdown of the family unit and lack of moral and social grounding. We should all feel sorry for them and try to be more understanding of their needs and insecurities.
Or you could choose a different approach....
These little shits have no understanding of consequence, what is required to confront this problem is a nightly patrol of commited, confident and capable adults. A large group who are willing and able to confront and control these idiots and teach them that these actions are not acceptable in our society. Not by beating the crap out of them (unless in self defence) but just by showing a community resolved to eradicating this kind of problem.
All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.
Instead of hiding in our homes wailing and moaning about how it isn't safe any more and how this used to be such a nice place etc etc. Get off our collective fat arse and take some action to prevent the situation from deteriorating further. Organise a group of locals who are committed to making a difference in your area/street/town and make a roster for street patrols with torches and cell phones and cameras. All it really takes is for people to stand up and DO something to show they actually WILL NOT TOLERATE this behaviour.
But this is apathetic NZ, so most likely people will just sit around and bitch about how it isn't their job/responsibility.
They will wail and gnash their teeth about the police being understaffed and underfunded, then they will go lock their doors and windows and hope the 'bad types' dont visit them tonight.
:angry:

Fair enough but in those ares how many parents have the time or resources to even make time for that? Half them are cleaning or sracking shelves at the local progressive supermarket just to make the payments to baycorp for the rent arrears.

[ManDownUnder]

maybe they were wrong and mankind is by nature a predatory animal who will find a way to kill someone, whether it be with a baseball bat, a samuri sword or by folding them up in a suitcase and chucking them in the harbor...



Bingo. We're so socialised into thinking we're not animals - we're higher order beings who live in a pleasant society etc etc etc.

That's all simply a construct, and inside each and every one of us are primal urges, "the four F's"

Feed
Fight
Flee
Sexual Reproduction

Deny that for too long and you'll find you ears full of shit from having your head up your arse.

Once we can recognise that simple fact - we are animals, ... mammals even, we ca learn to control our actions, and learn to understand why we control them. Because we need to.

Most never will know why. Most don't care.

I find it interesting...

If you need to meet the real animal in someone - get them drunk. Some of us get loud, argumentative, philosophical etc...

It sounds like these kids lived in a pack, acted in a pack and took responsibility as a pack (i.e. I didn't do it, we all did - therefire I'm not totally to blame... only 1/4). Deindividuation - today's big word - is a wonderful thing.

Enough... I'm off to look at girly pics.

[outlawtorn]

what this country needs are tougher sentences, that little shit who got 4 years for throwing the rock from the overpass, he should have got 10 years, five of them in solitary. A message needs to be sent but the justice system is so fucking soft and fucking politcally fucking correct it makes me sick. These little fuckers need to be taught a lesson.

If the bastards get caught tagging then make the parents pay the fine (minimum $2000 per tag) and make the little shits do community work every saturday and sunday for the next 6 months. If some little shit runs a child over in his twin turbo penis extension subaru then the little fucker must have his license taken away from him for 10 years cause he can't fucking drive.

What this country needs is a good kick up the arse, lets the cops do their job without the fucking tree hugging, bunny fucking PC hippy brigade, green party happy people interferring with the cops.

AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH. I wish I had a platform to be heard by the powers that be and I wish they had the balls to ask the public just what they thought a decent setence should be for certain crimes. We determine which parties rule the country, don't you think we should determine other matters of state, simply be referendum?

1st Referendum - Should naughty little fucks who get caught tagging receive tougher fines (payable by their parents) and be ordered to do community service? YES/NO

2nd Referendum - Should murder carry a much stiffer penalty in terms of solitary prison time? Yes/No

3rd Referendum - Should all people who don't like motorbikes be moved to Steward Island? Yes/Yes

RANT OVER!:done:

[ManDownUnder]

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

I hate to say it mate - that applied to the romans too, and the crusades, and... a large number of societies since.. well... a very long time ago.

[Patrick]

don't you think we should determine other matters of state, simply be referendum?

Did that not too long ago, "Harsher Penalties" 92% of the voting masses said. What did we get? Home Detention, parole after one third of your term... That'll learn em!

[Macktheknife]

Fair enough but in those ares how many parents have the time or resources to even make time for that? Half them are cleaning or sracking shelves at the local progressive supermarket just to make the payments to baycorp for the rent arrears.

I take your point Paul but tell me, does this declining social situation affect you? Does it bother you that these attacks are becoming more prevalent and somehow less noticeable than they once were?
Why does it need to be only the people in 'those areas'?
One of the most frequently mentioned things about young people who 'go off the rails', is the perception that no-one cares. They reach this conclusion because no-one cares enough to DO something, just talk about it and achieve nothing.
Think about it, when I was a kid, if you were engaged in wrong behaviour, ANY parent or adult would feel obliged to tell you not to do it. Maybe clip you around the ear and tell your parents about it, who would be grateful to them and then give you a good slap and often further punishment such as grounding or no TV.
This is called social and collective responsibility, where every member of a society recognises they have a part to play in keeping things working they way everyone wants them to be. Look around your street/area/neighborhood, do you see anybody who fits this description? If not, why not?
If so, how well do you know them and what can you do to promote the kind of street/area that you want?
This is called personal responsibility, give it a try folks.

[ManDownUnder]

what this country needs are tougher sentences, that little shit who got 4 years for throwing the rock from the overpass, he should have got 10 years, five of them in solitary. A message needs to be sent but the justice system is so fucking soft and fucking politcally fucking correct it makes me sick. These little fuckers need to be taught a lesson.


Yup!


If the bastards get caught tagging then make the parents pay the fine (minimum $2000 per tag) and make the little shits do community work every saturday and sunday for the next 6 months. If some little shit runs a child over in his twin turbo penis extension subaru then the little fucker must have his license taken away from him for 10 years cause he can't fucking drive.


Na - make the kids pay the fine. State coughs up for the initial fee, charges 15% intersest and offers them the chance to earn the money back at a reasonable, but slow enough rate. They do their time, the pay off their crime.

Parents would be punished (and it's a tough call whether that's a good or bad thing. but my main conerns it eh displacement of the punishment. A more direct cause and effect link is needed. You did that - you get this.

"Your parents get the punishment" might be just the ticket for kids who don;t like their parents - and I suspect that would apply to a good number of disaffected youth.


What this country needs is a good kick up the arse, lets the cops do their job without the fucking tree hugging, bunny fucking PC hippy brigade, green party happy people interferring with the cops.


Yup - society needs to be onside with the Police. Allowed to help them (reasonably) without getting int their way. I'm no cop, but if I can hold one idiot down while a copy chases the other I'd like to know there's no threat of assault charges hanging over my head...



AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH. I wish I had a platform to be heard by the powers that be and I wish they had the balls to ask the public just what they thought a decent setence should be for certain crimes. We determine which parties rule the country, don't you think we should determine other matters of state, simply be referendum?

I hear ya.



1st Referendum - Should naughty little fucks who get caught tagging receive tougher fines (payable by their parents) and be ordered to do community service? YES/NO

Agreed. My suggestion is a $200 reward for anyone proving a tagger's guilt. The tagger is fined $300 and the imbalance goes either to the victim or to courts costs etc.


2nd Referendum - Should murder carry a much stiffer penalty in terms of solitary prison time? Yes/No

Yes to the sentence, but I don't know about the effects of solitary. I'd suggest prison life (in general) be less comfy...


3rd Referendum - Should all people who don't like motorbikes be moved to Steward Island?

LOL...

[Paul in NZ]

I take your point Paul but tell me, does this declining social situation affect you? Does it bother you that these attacks are becoming more prevalent and somehow less noticeable than they once were?
Why does it need to be only the people in 'those areas'?
One of the most frequently mentioned things about young people who 'go off the rails', is the perception that no-one cares. They reach this conclusion because no-one cares enough to DO something, just talk about it and achieve nothing.
Think about it, when I was a kid, if you were engaged in wrong behaviour, ANY parent or adult would feel obliged to tell you not to do it. Maybe clip you around the ear and tell your parents about it, who would be grateful to them and then give you a good slap and often further punishment such as grounding or no TV.
This is called social and collective responsibility, where every member of a society recognises they have a part to play in keeping things working they way everyone wants them to be. Look around your street/area/neighborhood, do you see anybody who fits this description? If not, why not?
If so, how well do you know them and what can you do to promote the kind of street/area that you want?
This is called personal responsibility, give it a try folks.

My own leanings are closely alighned with your own and I suspect we agree on more than we disagree BUT we need to take a wider view.

I don't think there is a single factor to balme for this mess, it's a combination of many complex issues that started with the unravelling of the Kiwi egalitarian dream in the 70's. The masses got sold on the idea of a certain type economic reform being the only option etc etc. Are we any better off now? No, in general we are not IMHO. However, some of us are VERY much better off and these people were the ones leading the charge.

Personal responsibility is a double edged sword as this is one of the catch cries of the reformers. Educate yourself, improve yourself, look out for number one and you will be OK... Well not always as these street gangs could be claiming to do just that.

There is a decency in the common man and a modest life. Once it was celebrated and now it is despised. "Get rich or die trying' is definately the catchcry of this generation and it's horribly wrong. Their parents will try to earn enough $$ to keep the family together are probably working every hour god sent (we are now the second hardest working nation after japan) and at the minimum wage - it's not enough. Raising a family on $60K is virtually impossible... Most don't come close to that....

Mind you - what would I know? I'm old and in general don't like people very much so I'm hardly the best judge but - Selflessness is the key to love and it's the key to solving this problem...

[Macktheknife]

My own leanings are closely alighned with your own and I suspect we agree on more than we disagree BUT we need to take a wider view.

I don't think there is a single factor to balme for this mess, it's a combination of many complex issues that started with the unravelling of the Kiwi egalitarian dream in the 70's. The masses got sold on the idea of a certain type economic reform being the only option etc etc. Are we any better off now? No, in general we are not IMHO. However, some of us are VERY much better off and these people were the ones leading the charge.

Personal responsibility is a double edged sword as this is one of the catch cries of the reformers. Educate yourself, improve yourself, look out for number one and you will be OK... Well not always as these street gangs could be claiming to do just that.

There is a decency in the common man and a modest life. Once it was celebrated and now it is despised. "Get rich or die trying' is definately the catchcry of this generation and it's horribly wrong. Their parents will try to earn enough $$ to keep the family together are probably working every hour god sent (we are now the second hardest working nation after japan) and at the minimum wage - it's not enough. Raising a family on $60K is virtually impossible... Most don't come close to that....

Mind you - what would I know? I'm old and in general don't like people very much so I'm hardly the best judge but - Selflessness is the key to love and it's the key to solving this problem...
Paul, I think you are right in saying we agree on many things, including your final comments. This is not about how many things are to BLAME for the problem, this is about the ONE thing it takes to start to make things change/improve.... Action.
Without a clear and strong display of community, this will not change, it will get worse without question.

[outlawtorn]

Paul, I think you are right in saying we agree on many things, including your final comments. This is not about how many things are to BLAME for the problem, this is about the ONE thing it takes to start to make things change/improve.... Action.
Without a clear and strong display of community, this will not change, it will get worse without question.
Right there dude "Community", it's time we stopped letting our streets being run by these little fucking cowards! If everyone stood up to them or called the police or helped their neighbour the whole situation would a lot better.

[Paul in NZ]

Paul, I think you are right in saying we agree on many things, including your final comments. This is not about how many things are to BLAME for the problem, this is about the ONE thing it takes to start to make things change/improve.... Action.
Without a clear and strong display of community, this will not change, it will get worse without question.

I agree with you but... One of the first things 'everyone for themselves at the trough' economics did was to dismantle 'communities'. The internet and daytime TV didn't help either. Unless you are relatively lucky (or picky) about where you live, there is no community anymore.

Sad... VERY sad

[Zed]

ok your solution is?A theocratic dictatorship, but not in the same sense as is applied in the Middle East today, for I believe that God will literally be here in the future ruling and reigning over the nations with a "rod of iron" in righteousness.


Aint new rules

sure one of your commandments states "thou shall not kill" does it not!?I'm talking about the new rules which will be imposed upon this world by the New World Order when it comes into power shortly.


And let's not forget that this is my entitled opinion, it never surprises me when the scoffers come out (Dover, Beemer) and express their distain...let's here what answers you've got to bringing peace and harmony to this world? Believe me I won't ridicule you if you provide a sincere answer.

[Paul in NZ]

A theocratic dictatorship, but not in the same sense as is applied in the Middle East today, for I believe that God will literally be here in the future ruling and reigning over the nations with a "rod of iron" in righteousness..

Yeah! They are a bit soft eh?

Hmm.. sorry - have to agree to disagree here. The seperation of the church and the state is essential for freedom to survive. I believe that the church / islam / etc need to preach tolerance and decency and lead by example towards a goal of selflessness and generosity of spirit.

[Bend-it]

The odd thing is, I was discussing this with the office conservative christian this morning.

We disagree on many many things and yet, taken as a whole and if the behaviour of this gang and their ilk are taken as being at one end of the spectrum and my co workers is the other - I'm a lot closer to him than the others... Scary......

Natural, 'coz the values (not necessarily legislation) in european societies are all based on the bible in the first place...


Yup!
Yup - society needs to be onside with the Police. Allowed to help them (reasonably) without getting int their way. I'm no cop, but if I can hold one idiot down while a copy chases the other I'd like to know there's no threat of assault charges hanging over my head...


Haha, and the police are doing a great job of getting general society on their side, aren't they?

[ManDownUnder]

Haha, and the police are doing a great job of getting general society on their side, aren't they?

Generally yes. Walk in their shoes for a while and let me know what you think of them.

Here's my take:
They do a bitch of a job, with no ability to be supported by the public for the letigious reasons in my previous post, they're under-resourced, working shifts which are proven to damage family and other social relationships and have budgets continually being cut at the direction of those with a profit motive.

Actually... I take back my first comment about them doing a good job. I think they do a fucken wonderful job.

I'm not kissing arse to get out of a ticket or three. I'm saying that if we want society's shit to be fixed we have to enable to cops to do their jobs. Maybe we (as society) have a responsibility to help them... ever wonder about that one?

[Finn]

I blame Colonel Sanders. I hated the Colonel with his wee beady eyes! There's something sinister in those 7 secret herbs and spices.

[Paul in NZ]

I blame Colonel Sanders. I hated the Colonel with his wee beady eyes! There's something sinister in those 7 secret herbs and spices.

Yeah man... and the whole damn family is in on it eh? His cousin Orbital Sanders is up there spying on us and his bro Floor Sander is just freakin crazy many, turn him on and ya have no idea which way hes gunna go... I don't even want to talk about belt sanders...

[Beemer]

Yep. The hoodies were out in force in Levin at 2:00am Saturday morning. Shuffling the streets with random purpose...

What the hell were you doing in Levin at 2am in any case, Hitcher?

And Zed, don't worry about me, us atheists can cope on our own. And yes, we are having a party when our lovely Brethren neighbours (who made a false 111 complaint about us) move out in a few weeks. Here's hoping some normal decent non-hypocritical people move in.

[Hitcher]

What the hell were you doing in Levin at 2am in any case, Hitcher?

About 55kmh. Boom tish!

Somewhere there is a thread titled "And so, into the night". That should explain much...

[The_Dover]

let's here what answers you've got to bringing peace and harmony to this world? Believe me I won't ridicule you if you provide a sincere answer.

I respect your opinion Zed, even if the basis of it is about as far fetched as Harry Potter.

My solution? Get them all stoned with free access to Wendy's.

[Macktheknife]

Generally yes. Walk in their shoes for a while and let me know what you think of them.
Here's my take:
They do a bitch of a job, with no ability to be supported by the public for the letigious reasons in my previous post, they're under-resourced, working shifts which are proven to damage family and other social relationships and have budgets continually being cut at the direction of those with a profit motive.
Actually... I take back my first comment about them doing a good job. I think they do a fucken wonderful job.
I'm not kissing arse to get out of a ticket or three. I'm saying that if we want society's shit to be fixed we have to enable to cops to do their jobs. Maybe we (as society) have a responsibility to help them... ever wonder about that one?

Actually yes... and I totally agree with you.
They are the representatives of what our society has agreed as the laws to be upheld.
Don't just knock this without thinking about it folks, if you didn't partake in your responsibility to the process you really can't bitch about it.
Ultimately we all are responsible for monitoring where society is going, if you dont like it, do something about it.
Every time there is a serious crime what do you hear from the police? "We are looking for help from the public, someone must have seen something"
And they are right, the public are usually the source of information about who did what to whom and where they can be found.
Get involved, don't be one of those who just says "oh but who has time for that?" and then bitches when everything is messed up.

[Patrick]

Never ceases to amaze me how while patrolling neighbourhoods, everyone sees the cop car cruising through, but when shit happens in their own street, no one sees anything....

[sAsLEX]

working shifts which are proven to damage family and other social relationships

I disagree, working shifts allows people to spend more time with their kids, ie during the day when they are little and when at school they can pick them up some days unlike those that work 8 - 6 or whatever is the norm these days.

Sure you miss the odd occassion or BBQ etc cause you work on a sat night occasionally but life is what you make of it and how you adapt to your cicumstances.

Dad has shift worked his entire life basically and loves it. Some dont and thats like everything in the world some will find the way things happen as disagreeing with them, Dad HATES with a passion day work and gets grumpy and depressed when on that cycle, for others its the other way around.


Whats this New World Order you speak of Zed!?

[Fishy]

You will never get rid of these little fuckers from society, its just gonna get worse to especially with Uncle Helen running the country.

[Hitcher]

"Little fuckers" have always, like death and taxes, been one of life's inevitable truths. Past generations have fretted about what to do with them, exactly as we are now. Most will grow up to be big fuckers. Such is life.

[Patrick]

"Little fuckers" have always, like death and taxes, been one of life's inevitable truths. Past generations have fretted about what to do with them, exactly as we are now. Most will grow up to be big fuckers. Such is life.

But now we have Tazers and semi autos... heading toward USA Gangstas and USA Policing, perhaps????

[Finn]

But now we have Tazers and semi autos... heading toward USA Gangstas and USA Policing, perhaps????

Hope so. If we removed great numbers of little fuckers with bullets, it would be very difficult for them to breed more little fuckers.

Or a more humane method is mass sterilization but poor, dead people can't vote for Helen so this'll never happen.

[Paul in NZ]

"Little fuckers" have always, like death and taxes, been one of life's inevitable truths. Past generations have fretted about what to do with them, exactly as we are now. Most will grow up to be big fuckers. Such is life.

Civilised societies start wars every generation to soak up the worst of them.. Curse this decade of peace I say!

[The_Dover]

Civilised societies start wars every generation to soak up the worst of them.. Curse this decade of peace I say!

Yeah, let's start a war with Fiji. We might be able to beat them, if we're lucky.

[Finn]

Yeah, let's start a war with Fiji. We might be able to beat them, if we're lucky.

Yeah, put the maoris on the front line! After all, it's their country they'll be defending. We're just visiting.

[Lou Girardin]

But now we have Tazers and semi autos... heading toward USA Gangstas and USA Policing, perhaps????

Your bosses could start by taking the revenue men off traffic, and send them out on night shift with the rest of you and start using 'disorderly' and unlawful assembly charges with as much enthusiasm as you write speeding tickets.
And you have my approval to tazer any fucker who's wearing a hoodie and mumbles.

[Animal]

Generally yes. Walk in their shoes for a while and let me know what you think of them.

Here's my take:
They do a bitch of a job, with no ability to be supported by the public for the letigious reasons in my previous post, they're under-resourced, working shifts which are proven to damage family and other social relationships and have budgets continually being cut at the direction of those with a profit motive.

Actually... I take back my first comment about them doing a good job. I think they do a fucken wonderful job.

I'm not kissing arse to get out of a ticket or three. I'm saying that if we want society's shit to be fixed we have to enable to cops to do their jobs. Maybe we (as society) have a responsibility to help them... ever wonder about that one?
My turn to rant...

I find it very sad that the cops have lost the respect and authority they deserve, instead being relegated to mere revenue collectors. The focus of their purpose in modern society seems to have been shifted from law enforcement for the collective protection of society to law enforcement for collection of revenue. This is through no fault of theirs, because I'm sure they don't take pride in this shift. With very few exceptions, these guys (and girls) would've joined the cops because they believed that they could and wanted to make a difference - and make a real contribution to society. However, they've become toothless dogs in a society where the offender has more rights than the cops.

Consider our youth... it's no surprise that the hooligan fringe don't give a shit about authority, because they're untouchable. They can't (or won't) be spanked at home, the schools aren't allowed to discipline then, and law-abiding society can't touch them because the law protects them, despite their delinquency. Try to aprehend the shit tagging your fence and you're guaranteed to face an assault charge, while the smug little bastard laughs all the way out of being held accounbtable for his actions.

Where do the youth learn right from wrong, or about social responsibility? Or more importantly, where do they discover the relationship between actions and consequences? As a country, we're at the mercy of the criminal, and the people we rely on to catch the taggers, muggers, burglars and the rest of society's diseases and being used in a role inappropriate for the purpose.

Is it not more important to rid the country of random crime, than to meet fine quotas? This morning I saw two cop cars and three cops parked up along Lincoln Road, buggering around with a radar gun. Is this the best utilisation of this already-thin resource?

I think the cops must be the most disillusioned group of people in the county, because the ethics and ideals that they so strongly believed in when they joined up have been deemed irrelevant. Their authority and value to society as law enforcement officers has been completely diluted by the politicians.

But we should be delighted... our country is going down the tubes, but quotas are being met!

Okay, I'm done. Who's next?

[DMNTD]

Your bosses could start by taking the revenue men off traffic, and send them out on night shift with the rest of you and start using 'disorderly' and unlawful assembly charges with as much enthusiasm as you write speeding tickets.

Don't be so freckin' stupid,they'd never do that....it would prolly work

[The_Dover]

Your bosses could start by taking the revenue men off traffic, and send them out on night shift with the rest of you and start using 'disorderly' and unlawful assembly charges with as much enthusiasm as you write speeding tickets.
And you have my approval to tazer any fucker who's wearing a hoodie and mumbles.

I've only ever seen a chick wearing mumbles, and even then I don't think that's the correct name for them.

But I could definitely see her lips moving.

[andrea]

I had a wee run in whilst out working overtime on monday night (driver/security for meter reader on night reads)... A group of kids with nothing better to do decided to take exception to myself and colleague and approx 10 of them (teens and young kids) walked out and stood on the road, partially blocking it (all had weapons of some kind, huge sticks, whips and a golf club!!) I cruised up towards them slowly... waiting for them to move... well... then the verbal abuse started, some of the kids would have been no older than 9!! and the foul language was just unbelievable. When they started approaching the car, I seriously thought:gob: 'Oh shit... this isnt going to be good'!...I saw a chance (gap) to get outta there and threw the 4x4 into gear and took off. Now I have to fill in 3 pages of paperwork bout it too:angry:

What is really disturbing is whilst finishing our run we saw no less than 15 other kids (in small goups) roaming around with what seems to be the latest trend, whips of some kind. (anybody else noticed this??!?!).Certainly doesnt make one feel safe, we were just minding our own business and doing our job. The incident mentioned above occured at around 6.30pm, it wasnt even dark!! where are the parents?? do they know wtf their kids are doing?? and what they are carrying with them??!

As with what happened with the young kid 'Riki', innocent people are being caught in the crossfire!! something needs to be done about it... and fast!!

damn stuff that i work round that area too umm, those whip thingy's are just lavalava's wrapped up. i dont know what i would of done, probably dropped down acouple gears and booted it giving them a fright, pisses me off cause alot of them are really disrespectful. one teen was going to throw a wooden stick at my bike, and i slowed down and looked at him and said"fark u", and he just turned away and walked off. the guys at work were talking bout what happened to that riki guy, one of the guys were blaming it on the parents and all the bad influence from america and shit.

[andrea]

I've only ever seen a chick wearing mumbles, and even then I don't think that's the correct name for them.

But I could definitely see her lips moving.

what the fark are mumbles?

[The_Dover]

damn stuff that i work round that area too umm, those whip thingy's are just lavalava's wrapped up. i dont know what i would of done, probably dropped down acouple gears and booted it giving them a fright, pisses me off cause alot of them are really disrespectful. one teen was going to throw a wooden stick at my bike, and i slowed down and looked at him and said"fark u", and he just turned away and walked off. the guys at work were talking bout what happened to that riki guy, one of the guys were blaming it on the parents and all the bad influence from america and shit.

I blame bad spelling and atrocious grammar.

[andrea]

Your bosses could start by taking the revenue men off traffic, and send them out on night shift with the rest of you and start using 'disorderly' and unlawful assembly charges with as much enthusiasm as you write speeding tickets.
And you have my approval to tazer any fucker who's wearing a hoodie and mumbles.

holly fark man i wear a hoodie

[The_Dover]

holly fark man i wear a hoodie

Do you wear "mumbles" too?

[scumdog]

what the fark are mumbles?


Ya don't really want to know!!
Hint: wearing a pair will give you a bad case of 'camel-toe', any further informed??

[scumdog]

My turn to rant...



Is it not more important to rid the country of random crime, than to meet fine quotas? This morning I saw two cop cars and three cops parked up along Lincoln Road, buggering around with a radar gun. Is this the best utilisation of this already-thin resource?

I think the cops must be the most disillusioned group of people in the county, because the ethics and ideals that they so strongly believed in when they joined up have been deemed irrelevant. Their authority and value to society as law enforcement officers has been completely diluted by the politicians.

But we should be delighted... our country is going down the tubes, but quotas are being met!

Okay, I'm done. Who's next?

What everybody (well except for Lou and a few others) was that once NZ had a shitload less Police.

They had Traffic Officers who (mainly) just did traffic and they had Police who did Police stuff.

Then they got amalgamated by the Govt in 1992 "so NZ will have twice as many Police" - yeah right!!

If they had been left as they were then the public would not be expecting Police action from Traffic Officers who now happen to wear the same uniform as Police.

But unfortunately the public don't differentiate between the two braches now like they use to pre '92.:nono:

My 2 cents worth.

[Lou Girardin]

what the fark are mumbles?

Same as landing gear.

[Lou Girardin]

But unfortunately the public don't differentiate between the two braches now like they use to pre '92.:nono:

My 2 cents worth.

Could it be because of quotas?

[scumdog]

Could it be because of quotas?

Nah, more likely 'cos there dumb.

And I've not written a ticket out for the last four days at work, oh dear, what will I say to the 'boss'? how will I meet my quota??

Quotas-Scmottas!!! Pffft!

[98tls]

dont ya hate seeing those pensioners at the supermarket wearing tight slacks or whatever with there landing gear out...:gob:.....Put it away....

[Paul in NZ]

Yeah, let's start a war with Fiji. We might be able to beat them, if we're lucky.

Oh god no! You don't want to win the bloody war you idiot!! Then you have to prop up their economy for a generation and rebuild their country and the whole lot of them would come live here (hmm hang on).

Better off starting a war with the yanks, loosing (after letting blow up some worthless shite like Auckland or the Suzuzki storage depot) after a few days and letting build a few bases, set up some universities, airports, harbours, roads, electricity grids etc and they will loose interest in a year or so (once they find out we really don't have any oil) and they will piss off and bomb someone else. if we time it right with our neighbours we could get the whole region lookin pretty sharp in 20 years.

[Bend-it]

holly fark man i wear a hoodie

LYNCH HER!!

[Lou Girardin]

Nah, more likely 'cos there dumb.

And I've not written a ticket out for the last four days at work, oh dear, what will I say to the 'boss'? how will I meet my quota??

Quotas-Scmottas!!! Pffft!

I guess we've got the cops we deserve then. :dodge:

[Bend-it]

Tazer him SD!

[Patrick]

Then they got amalgamated by the Govt in 1992 "so NZ will have twice as many Police" - yeah right!!

Minor correction Scummy - I think there were only 1300 snakes NZ wide, joining 5000 pigs...

Can't help thinking it had more to do with the revenue aspect tho...

to rephrase slightly - "amalgamated by the Govt in 1992 so NZ Govt will have almost 4 times the number of revenue collectors" perhaps?

[candor]

Something is missing in this debate. You guys keep talking about right and wrong behaviour. About parents / schools / cops etc beng too soft. About people needing to learn there are consequences.

This ignores the fact most of the offenders come from a subculture. From a background where family has often taught them quite deliberately that its good to be bad. Wrong is right. The badder the better. Its good to be tough - the tougher the better.

There are plenty people out there deliberately corrupting their kids - I see it often enough in my line of work. They do not love their kids (had for a benefit) and don't care how they develop - so long as they don't do better than their useles selves (cos that would be shameful).To be a killer is great cos then you get a rep and some news coverage - attention. Might is right in some places. Shit for brains, maybe you have fetal alcohol syndrome (not your fault) and the one the family looks up to as a real character is that rebel uncle jim who is in jail for (fill the gap).

I've worked with plenty of killers and generally they are quite proud of it. If you want to understand the make-up of these people some good places to start are an exploration of the "narcissistic" personality. And maybe Scott Pecks book "people of the lie" which deals with people whose psychologicalmakeupcauses them to be evil. It has a bot of a christian slant but is worth reading never the less (as Peck is a clever qualified shrink).

There are 2 good ways to raise a narcissist cum likely killer. Spoil it rotten and make it feel its superior and perfect and entitled and incapable of being wrong. Complete emotional neglect of a kid, its almost like you treat them like furniture not an individual (may include physical or other abuse but need not).

The surest way to raise a killer is to swing inconsistently between these 2 extreme approaches with no rhyme or reason as well as to encourage adoption of an amoral egocentric orientation to life eg by role modelling it. Reactive attachment disorder is common in future thugs. They do not form deep human bonds so have no empathy (abilityto imagine or therefore care) about how others feel.

Paranoia is also common eg you are quick to feel others are belittling you (even by looking at you) and keen to be the victor (no matter how it might hurt someone else). The inability to see consequences as well as to care about them is also usually lacking in those who are "alternately" socialised or as some call it "antisocial personality disorder". Maturity level if compared to rest of society - around 2-3. Not individuated yet and has missed the boat.

It can take a while of knowing murderers until you start to hear or note a few thing which tll you some essential parts like empathy and conscience are amiss. It does not worry them tho as they see these things as others weaknesses. And know too that as others will assume they are in possession of these things (unless convicted) then others will have guard down.

They know they are different (some call themselves the 1%ers in prison culture) and of this they are glad. Soldiers I believe are trained to detach like these psychopaths when it comes time to do the busines. These people always feel detached cos they have little or dead emotional life normally.

Hence the excitement, endorphins and adrenalin of a good scrap or kill is very convivial to them. So thats my observations anyway derived from theory I've learnt and working with these types in special ed schools and prisons.

Solutions - difficult with generational dysfunctions that often run thru whole communities. I think the communities and the elders of the communities values need to seriously change. Which sounds a bit Duffish I guess.
People need to stop valuing violence and stop raising their kids to be "scrappy". And stop beng secretly proud when the kids brek the law or do "wrong" - cos the kids know when the parents are chuffed and will keep excelling.

It was a real put off working with delinquents when parents picking them up for leave would encourage these 6 yr olds to swear at staff as you waved them goodbye. There is a subculture out there that does not want their kids to be OK. A friend of mine counsels abusive parents who often admit to not loving their kids - resenting - hating them etc. Looking at the foundations - scarey, the result - not surprising!

[jrandom]

Shudder. Isn't it all so terribly awful?

Ah well. Time for all good men to come to the aid of the party, eh? I think I'll start packing a tidy little 2 1/4" double-action .357 mag alongside the Chinook (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=22). Check it. I mean, is this (http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5720&return=Y) just totally sweet, or what?

Might also retire the Chinook to skinning duties and swap to a Civilian (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=60).

Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six...

If it didn't guarantee that my beloved sidearms would spend the rest of their days in an evidence bag, I'd head down to Mangere right now and bag me a darkie.

[candor]

Are you being provocative? Anyone else fit the profile? I like the Ruger but its so small can it possibly do the right thing? Or should lone walkers just resort to tazers instead?

[jrandom]

Are you being provocative?

To quote Eric Idle, "Me? Ohhh, nooo, nooooooo... yes."


Anyone else fit the profile?

What, other than darkies? Thought they were what the thread was about.


I like the Ruger but its so small can it possibly do the right thing?

A few minutes of computational fluid dynamics should make it evident that a standard .357 Magnum load generates enough bullet acceleration in a 2 1/4" barrel to give respectable terminal ballistics at typical defensive ranges.

[Drunken Monkey]

... alongside the Chinook (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=22). Check it....

Bah, folders are SO retro uncool. Push knives (http://www.coldsteel.com/samase.html) are where it's at. They're so much cooler because they're so much more illegal!


... If it didn't guarantee that my beloved sidearms would spend the rest of their days in an evidence bag, I'd head down to Mangere right now and bag me a darkie...

I hear that.

[jrandom]

Push knives (http://www.coldsteel.com/samase.html) are where it's at. They're so much cooler because they're so much more illegal!

But they're a PITA to carry concealed for an easy draw. Lockback folders are the way to go. I'd carry a balisong, but I like my fingers attached to my hand, and I can open a folder faster, anyway. And if I'm spending $300 on a knife, I want it to double as a utility tool, so a belly on the blade comes in handy.

A lot of the Cold Steel models are very nice, though. Even if they're waaay overpriced and the thumb studs on their folders are much less handy than the Spyderco hole. Nobody does folders quite like Spyderco.

I gotta admit, a classic fixed-blade dagger would be a comforting thing to have ready to hand if any shit went down, fo' sho'... but the days of a gentleman being expected to carry steel at his belt are long gone, I fear.

What the world needs is a good dose of theology and geometry...

[andrea]

Do you wear "mumbles" too?

no i haven't a clue what the fark they are,

[andrea]

Do you wear "mumbles" too?

come round on the next kb ride and wear your mumble thingy so i know what it looks like

[Lou Girardin]

Nigel Latta is a NZ forensic psychologist, he doesn't mince his words about the predators in our midst. He says they're not misunderstood or under-priviliged, they're just bad. Always will be, until age renders them harmless. The best we can do is ensure they can't hurt anyone.

[spudchucka]

cops being charged for kicking young kids arses and telling them to fuck off home. mum and dads are going to be charged for clipping their kids round the ears. what do peopl expect? i don't condone a police state, but i do condone old fashioned values and respect. the old 'unlawful assembly' law should be used more often, but it creats SO much paperwork, and many of these groups are under 17, so the can't be charged anyway, their parents don't care, neither does cyfs.

in the not-too-distant future we will see street cops routinely armed with side arms, (there are a good number already doing so) then it will come down to individuals protecting themselves with their weapon of choice.

We need to treat them like stray dogs, round them up and put them in the pound. Then their low life parents can pay to get them out once they've been microchipped.

[Paul in NZ]

Something is missing in this debate. You guys keep talking about right and wrong behaviour. About parents / schools / cops etc beng too soft. About people needing to learn there are consequences.

This ignores the fact most of the offenders come from a subculture. From a background where family has often taught them quite deliberately that its good to be bad. Wrong is right. The badder the better. Its good to be tough - the tougher the better.

!

One of the best posts here... Thank you.

I know I'm regarded as a barbarian but to me this is typical of the sort of crime that is prevented by life imprisonment or capital punishment. Unfashionable I know, unconciousable for some but we are not thinking like criminals are we?

[Beemer]

About 55kmh. Boom tish!

Somewhere there is a thread titled "And so, into the night". That should explain much...


Ah, figured as much. Suppose you'll be getting a hair cut (whoops, silly me, sorry!) and working out your posing routine next so you'll look purdy in the Rusty Nuts DVD?

[sAsLEX]

knife stuff

this is what you want https://www.kabar.com/product_detail.jsp?productNumber=1217&mode=category&categoryId=1,2,3,7&categoryName=Military/Tactical