NCEA opinions sought

[BuFfY]

What are your opinions on NCEA?

And what has influenced your opinion, whether it is through doing it yourself, your children going through it or what you have heard through media (or any other ways!!)

I personally loved it, I was put up a grade for Geography so I got to go through school cert and 6th form cert aswell as the whole way through NCEA so I have the experience to back up my view. It worked really well for me as the criterion was very clear and easy to follow, yet I do see the down side in the way in which some teachers are not using it correctly.

So what do you think!?!

[GR81]

doesnt Cambridge High have a really good NCEA system going on? LOL :gob:

[MSTRS]

I think the idea is sound. The problem is that people (are teachers people?) are involved and that is where the whole thing falls down...

[Hitcher]

Teachers are averse to external assessment system as it allows their performance to be monitored, as well as that of their students.

It would be nice to have a system that allowed the wider population to easily understand how much the bar of eductional standards is being lowered each year and what individual school leavers don't know.

[ManDownUnder]

We need a system where students get accurately assessed (per Hitchers cmments). We need a system where kids learn ewhere they stand, they can pass exams... or they can fail exams.

At the moment I understand it's pretty hard to fail an NCEA subject... you just don't pass with such a good grade.

The real world is full of hard knocks. You will fail when you come up against someone bigger and better.

In short - I get the feeling NCEA is PC bullshit applied to our education system.

And to ansrew the rest of your question... my influences are having gone through the non NCEA system, through an apprenticeship, and through Universty - all of which had absolute standards measuring my abilities. If I was not good enough I didn't pass, mget a pay rise, and pass (respectively). I'm also a fan of the school of hard knocks. Pain is a very good teacher..

Don;t get me wrong - those that know me will testify I'm the first to help, encourage and enable people to pass.. but I won't pass the exams for them. Show them the benefits of passing, show them what can be if you put your nose down, arse up and work. I'm also a fan of a good old fashioned reality check. (or asset check as I call it).

Know what you're good at, and know your limitations. Those are the aspects of your life that will determine a lot of what you can and can't do, and that is the olist that helps you determine what you can work on, and where you can go.

/raving

[Patrick]

What I don't get is how some who are behind in marks can go out into the playground and pick up rubbish for extra credits...

[BuFfY]

That was in one school, I worked bloody hard for my credits and got the good marks because I understood what I was doing. It says on your certificate exactly what you got your marks for. So like....

BIOLOGY: Describe the impact of human activities on an ecosystem Level 3 Credit Value: 2 Excellence

STATISTICS: Use straight forward statistical data methods to explore data Level 1 Credit Value 3 Excellence

You know exactly what you did for the marks, where as when I did school c it was Geography: B

[Jantar]

I was educated under the old examination system. Percentages were given, you either passed or you didn't pass, and you knew where you were in relation to others who were sitting the same subject. It meant that you also knew the areas in which you excelled, and those where more work was required, and you also knew what subjects to give up as you were never going to make it.

My children were educated as NCEA was coming in. My eldest sat School Certificate, my youngest was NCEA all the way. As a parent I could follow my childrens progress with much more certainty under the old external examination system.

My youngest son received a school report under NCEA that was so bad I threatened to pull him out the college he was attending and send him back to a normal high school. However when I went and interviewed his teachers to see where he was going wrong, I found out that his knowledge base was right up where it should be. He was achieving all of his credits, and actually doing very well. As to my question of why his school report was so bad, it came down to the standards set under NCEA. One of the criteria at levl 1 - 3 subjects is "consistantly studys on his/her own time and produses work to provide evedence of this study". My son was bright enough in his chosen subjects that he didn't need to put in extra study in his own time, and so didn't meet this part of the criteria and therefore struggled to get the requisite assessment. But he knew the subject. An exam would have shown this.

I am now involved to some extent with training, and mentoring some of our staff through a National Diploma under NCEA. It is an absolute crock of shit.

I do believe that there is a place for assessment systems such as NCEA, but they should be secondary to an external exam. Externally set exams give a far clearer indication of a students ranking and ability, and also gives a clear indication of the teacher's knowledge and ability.

[Jeremy]

I prefer uni exams due to their scaling and that the exams are short. I'd have been much happier if you could just do the excellence question and get excellence, than wasting time doing fluff.

[Colapop]

Echoing all the clever things that have been stated. I like the sytem that I went through that has a percentage pass mark instead of A's and B's (which tell me very little) with the addition of practical knowledge or experience. NCEA provides for different learning styles but is poorly implemented and managed and not the fault of teachers.

[Indiana_Jones]

NCEA is a crock of shit in my personal opinion. All they have done is make it easier for dumb people to pass and harder for smart people to get good marks.

-Indy

[Magua]

What was wrong with School C to warrent the change to NCEGAY?

[Flyingpony]

I don't like the NCEA system at all. It seems like all students are given a wet bus ticket for non-performance and still achieve a pass. Hell, they don't even have to enrol or attend the classes to get a passing grade! It seems like nobody can fail anymore,,, wait till they reach University or real world. It feels to me that students can go to gym class and reading book class (it's really :zzzz: time) and woohoo, they've passed the year. But what have they really learnt? Did they actually pass Science, Chemistry, Geography, Mathematics and English?

The system of old where students got given the old ABCDEF with + & - marks means something,,, it's traditional and proven universal understanding. I like it. You can talk to old people and they know if you're good or dumb based upon those grades. Speak to them about NCEA scores, you might as well be speaking in French.

[BuFfY]

I don't think it is a lack of education for the majority of students but a lack of education of the wider population. All the politics that has gone into slamming the education is terrible. Have you noticed all the NEGATIVE articles? It can't be all negative if a) they decided to change the assessment scheme and b) they haven't gotten rid of it.

Sixth form certificate did not work because it was based on percentiles, not percentages (there is a massive difference). Due to the fact my school hadn't achieved too well the years previous we only had a small amount of 1's and 2's to give out... so scaling came into effect. My grade got put down heaps because of this. Through school c and sixth form cert schools can tell students not to sit it so that their school looks better, and they get given more higher grade opportunities. Whereas NCEA allows everyone to show their strengths. If their strength is picking up rubbish I am sure the local council would love them to apply for a job.

NCEA is awesome in the way it shows what you are good at in a specific subject. Instead of it being MATHS I got to show my talent in statistics.

I think uneducated opinions are what is hindering NCEA, especially when they are 'educated' by looking through the herald and looking at one off incidents

[Hitcher]

That was in one school, I worked bloody hard for my credits and got the good marks because I understood what I was doing. It says on your certificate exactly what you got your marks for. So like....

BIOLOGY: Describe the impact of human activities on an ecosystem Level 3 Credit Value: 2 Excellence

STATISTICS: Use straight forward statistical data methods to explore data Level 1 Credit Value 3 Excellence

You know exactly what you did for the marks, where as when I did school c it was Geography: B

I understand what you're saying but neither system really tells anybody anything. An implicit part of the "old" system was that everybody knew what level of competency was involved in School C or UE geography and maths. It didn't need to be described in detail. If you were ratshit at calculus but a whizz at trigonometry, things averaged out across your "mark".

Whereas a descriptor of "Describe the impact of human activities on an ecosystem Level 3" is meaningless. This topic could be covered by a minimum of half-an-hour's worth of teaching followed by a multi-choice exam. If I was an employer looking to hire somebody to work in the natural resources business, would such a level of "learning" actually mean anything? I doubt it.

[Wasp]

i sat level 2 last year and level 1 the year before that, i feel that it failed me badly and if i had been given the option i would have chosen to do school cert.

[BuFfY]

Well the level of their achievement in that specific area would show the employer the depth of engagement in that area.

But what if you are really good at the majority of maths but you are ratshit at calculus, why should your possible high grade be lowered because of this, it could just mean they are a 75% student over all when they are actually 95% competent in everything else.

The way in which everyone knows how to interpret the old assessment scheme is because it has been around for years and the employers went through it themselves. Things will be exactly the same in 20 years as us lucky individuals who went through NCEA will know how to read it, and school c and stuff will be totally gone and irrelevant

[Ixion]

,, He was achieving all of his credits, and actually doing very well. As to my question of why his school report was so bad, it came down to the standards set under NCEA. One of the criteria at levl 1 - 3 subjects is "consistantly studys on his/her own time and produses work to provide evedence of this study". My son was bright enough in his chosen subjects that he didn't need to put in extra study in his own time, and so didn't meet this part of the criteria and therefore struggled to get the requisite assessment. But he knew the subject. An exam would have shown this.
,,.

I am not in any way affected by NCEA . But I dislike it on principle for just this reason. It is too subjective, and too prone to being influenced by a techer's dislike of a pupil, or disapproval of his/her study methods.

When I was at school I was an argumentative little shit (now, I'm an argumentative old shit!). So, teachers being the herd animals they are, with a deep dislike of being questioned, they disliked me.

I also have an "explosive" learning style. I learn best under pressure, working furiously for a period , then taking a break. I do not produce well, or learn well, on a "steady drip feed basis" (This is still the case - hence my posting here from werk. It is in the "take a break and recharge " periods). Many males have this pattern. Very few women do.

This also alienated many teachers. Because I would appear to be doing little or no work through the term (such work as was required to actually understand the priunciples of the subject I was able to do very quickly, I found school work very easy).

They would complain loudly to me (and my parents) about this. And predict dire failure come exam time. Then when the exams came (internal or external) I would get stuck in a week or so before hand , and always produced good results (top quartile). Which infuriated the teachers even more, their predictions proving false.

Under an NCEA regime I would have received very poor marks, because of its (female oriented) focus on drip feed learning.

This is one reason why males appear to be doing badly these days.

A million years of evolution has conditioned males to do things explosively. Sit for hours waiting for dinner to walk down the jungle path. Then half an hour of explosive energy killing it, cutting it up and carrying it home. As distinguished from Mrs Caveman who steadily and methodically worked her way through the forest all day gathering berries and fruits etc.

The NCEA is female centric. It would have failed me. I prefer examinations. Show me the enemy. When he is not there, leave me alone.

[Hitcher]

But what if you are really good at the majority of maths but you are ratshit at calculus, why should your possible high grade be lowered because of this, it could just mean they are a 75% student over all when they are actually 95% competent in everything else.

Your grade would be 75% because, overall, you're a 75% student. To be a 95% student you'd have to be pretty good at calculus as well. Cherry-picking the stuff you're good at to give yourself a better mark is a bit like Tour de France winners taking drugs or beauty queens having plastic surgery. It may not strictly be "cheating" but it does involve taking liberties with the "truth".

[Indiana_Jones]

it's like saying "I can take the plane off, fly it, but I can't land; But I should still be allowed to fly" lol

-Indy

[Magua]

Hell, they don't even have to enrol or attend the classes to get a passing grade!

What are you talking about? If you skip classes, you won't be able to pass, unless you are refering to the whole Cambridge high fiasco?


It feels to me that students can go to gym class and reading book class (it's really :zzzz: time) and woohoo, they've passed the year. But what have they really learnt? Did they actually pass Science, Chemistry, Geography, Mathematics and English?

When I look at my certificates for NCEA levels one, two and three, it clearly shows where I got my credits, Physics, History, etc.

[MSTRS]

... It can't be all negative if a) they decided to change the assessment scheme and b) they haven't gotten rid of it.
....

Oh yes it can!!! Since when was refusing to admit that 'well, that was a stuff up' proof that it was right to keep going with said fiasco??
Anyway, teachers almost invariably vote Labour. Win-win for the social engineers...

[Indiana_Jones]

Oh yes it can!!! Since when was refusing to admit that 'well, that was a stuff up' proof that it was right to keep going with said fiasco??
Anyway, teachers almost invariably vote Labour. Win-win for the social engineers...

lol rep given! :D

-Indy

[BuFfY]

But I didn't!!

Generalisations are so anoying!

[Indiana_Jones]

Avast!

you mean like that generalisation? :D

-Indy

[Magua]

Stereotyping for the win.

[MSTRS]

Stereotyping for the win.

I use 2 fingers when typing....does that count as 'stereo'??:innocent:

[Magua]

Close enough for government work.

[Michaelt]

The main problem with NCEA, as I see it, is that it's far too easy to take advantage of the system.
Too easy to "pass" NCEA, and especially to get university entrance, which requires 42 credits at L3 including at least 14 (out of 24) in each of two approved subjects (ie. academic subjects) and another 14 total over no more than two other subjects (ie. anything at all).
These credits don't have to be merit or excellence, just achieved, so to get into uni, all you really need is to pass just over half of two subjects at a very mediocre level and get another 14 credits in woodworking or PE or something, and you're guaranteed entry.
It worked well for me though, I was accepted to uni after 5th form thanks to that rule, so I'm not really complaining. I shouldn't have been able to do that though.

Michael

[MSTRS]

Close enough for government work.

Ooooohh...are they hiring? A job for life...great....

[BuFfY]

Same thing for school c and stuff... in bursary all you needed was 3 c's and you got in

At uni you can get your degree with all c's

[Magua]

Too easy to "pass" NCEA, and especially to get university entrance, which requires 42 credits at L3 including at least 14 (out of 24) in each of two approved subjects (ie. academic subjects) and another 14 total over no more than two other subjects (ie. anything at all).
Michael

What about literacy credits? Four for reading and four for writing in 6th form, or level two ncea.

Mathematics too, "a minimum of 14 credits at level 1 or higher in Mathematics".

[Michaelt]

Same thing for school c and stuff... in bursary all you needed was 3 c's and you got in

At uni you can get your degree with all c's

The difference being that, even assuming achieved is at the same level as C (I'd say it's a bit lower, but not really sure), a C overall is quite a bit harder to get then an achieved over 14 out of 24 credits, and 2*14 credits approved subjects is easier than 3. 14 credits over anything else isn't even worth considering as a challenge.


What about literacy credits? Four for reading and four for writing in 6th form, or level two ncea.

Mathematics too, "a minimum of 14 credits at level 1 or higher in Mathematics".

You can do the literacy credits as 2 unit standards through MIT (what I did), it's quite easy to do really.

I'm sure there's something similar for the numeracy standard if 5th form applied maths isn't easy enough, although I passed schol calc so 14 credits level 1 wasn't a problem for me (did that in 3rd form, and also got 70% in school cert maths in 2nd form, which didn't count for some reason due to the NCEA transition).

[BuFfY]

It will count it just wont be on your NCEA record... all my school c and 6th form marks still count.

[Michaelt]

It will count it just wont be on your NCEA record... all my school c and 6th form marks still count.

Too late now anyway, I've done NCEA L1 and L2 maths and L3 and schol calc since then.

Anyway, my school c math mark was only 70%, not a great loss.

Michael

[Flyingpony]

What are you talking about? If you skip classes, you won't be able to pass, unless you are refering to the whole Cambridge high fiasco?
That'll be the one. Saw something on television about it.


When I look at my certificates for NCEA levels one, two and three, it clearly shows where I got my credits, Physics, History, etc.
Good to know because the NCEA system came in after I'd graduated from the high school system.


At uni you can get your degree with all c's
Though you might run into troubles getting into a the postgraduate level studies. Master level requires an average grade of -B or is it B :scratch:

[Patrick]

Have you noticed all the NEGATIVE articles? It can't be all negative if a) they decided to change the assessment scheme and b) they haven't gotten rid of it.



Yep, we have noticed all the negatives.

a) It is a government department... of course they will change it if it is working fine, they always do... look at the merger of Police and Traffic as one example.

b) What is done is done... it cost enough to "change" it in the first place... they are not going to spend millions on changing it back and saying, "Oops, that was a dumb arsed move on our part, wasn't it?"

[Hitcher]

At uni you can get your degree with all c's

Don't give away my secrets! Anything better than a C is wasted effort.

[terbang]

it's like saying "I can take the plane off, fly it, but I can't land; But I should still be allowed to fly" lol

-Indy

In a lot of the aviation exams I have sat in other parts of the world the pass mark was 100% where in NZ it is 70%.
I don't disagree with it, especially when it comes down to safety procedures/equipment knowledge. How could a crew member be only 70% proficient in an evacuation syllabus or a fire drill?

My daughters are doing their NCEA and it interests me that an "achieved" mark lies in the 45-75% area.. As someone has allready said it appears that we are dumbing our society down.
I can't comment on school C as I left school at 15 and have absolutely no school qualification whatsoever. RD350's and Sharon...T where the only things I cared about back then! I took and completed an apprenticship in Automotive Engineering (a Mechanic) gaining my trade certificate (another desecrated qualification for a future debate). Didn't slow me down though as I now have a good career in aviation being self educated in that area. It is interesting to note that the only people that actually held this against me were Air NZ and I currently fly for Qantas.
I also flew, among others, as a British Airways captain for a period of time. Yet, based on a decision I made at 15, I wasn't good enough to fly backpackers and suits between AKL and WLG in my own country.
Whilst I may appear lucky, I believe that as I matured, I understood what I wanted to do and focused on that area achieving fairly well. Lucky for me, there are those that look at that rather than how I spent my youth.

[BuFfY]

Don't give away my secrets! Anything better than a C is wasted effort.

Haha one of my friends mottos is

C's make degrees!

[Magua]

Don't give away my secrets! Anything better than a C is wasted effort.

Cees get degrees.

Edit, what buffy said.

[Hitcher]

Whilst I may appear lucky, I believe that as I matured, I understood what I wanted to do and focused on that area achieving fairly well. Lucky for me, there are those that look at that rather than how I spent my youth.

And whatever happened to Sharon T?

[Michaelt]

In a lot of the aviation exams I have sat in other parts of the world the pass mark was 100% where in NZ it is 70%.
I don't disagree with it, especially when it comes down to safety procedures/equipment knowledge. How could a crew member be only 70% proficient in an evacuation syllabus or a fire drill?

Very easily.

Just passed my PPL flight test today, my 6 exam marks ranged all the way from 70% (for Met) to 100% (for Radio).

Similar to my uni marks really, range all the way from C- (lowest passing grade) for mechanical engineering design to A+ (for maths).

I do agree with you though, plenty of things that I should know that I'm not entirely confident of, that I'd require more time for thinking about than there would be in a real life emergency situation.

Michael

[Lou Girardin]

NCEA is great. It lets stupid people feel good about themselves.

[Motu]

gaining my trade certificate (another desecrated qualification for a future debate). .

It wasn't hard,but Trade Cert practical had at least a 90% failure rate,and A Grade was even higher,over 95%.And this was a good system - qualifications were never really important in the trade,journeyman was the standard...and the best mechanics I've ever worked with had no qualifications at all - one had a boiler firemans ticket,another was a qualified butcher,ability was the defining benchmark,pieces of paper meant nothing.But Trade Cert was the mark of a mechanic who knew his stuff,A Grade was the elite heights....like being a proffesional motorcycle racer amougst all the club racers.After 10 years as an employer,no one who has worked for me has been qualified - I don't care what pieces of paper they show me....I want to see how they can work.

[terbang]

And whatever happened to Sharon T?
Oh, I typically went off drinking beer, riding motorbikes and flying planes like any other young lad. Woke up a few years later to find some other lucky bastard had married her...!

[Swoop]

A million years of evolution has conditioned males to do things explosively. Sit for hours waiting for dinner to walk down the jungle path. Then half an hour of explosive energy killing it, cutting it up and carrying it home. As distinguished from Mrs Caveman who steadily and methodically worked her way through the forest all day gathering berries and fruits etc.
An excellent explanation Sir Ixion!

[Indiana_Jones]

Uni enterance has been dumbed-down since the uni's had to find their own funding. I liked it how it was back in the day, smart people went to uni for next to nothing, like smart people who are gonna pass uni and do something with the degree etc (not like half the people there now). Shit, even I could get into uni :p

The not so smart went into trades, but they got stopped, and only now do they realize that there's no-one left to replace the current tradesmen.

Good to see trade apprenticeships back on the rise again :)

-Indy