Drinking Age - Govt's Latest News Release

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

The Associate Minister of Health has said the drinking age will not be put back up to 20.

Damien O'Connor made the comments at an addictions conference in Wellington this morning, pre-empting a parliamentary review of the drinking age.

He says the political reality is that New Zealand is stuck with the drinking age at 18. (UM WHY??!!)

Mr O'Connor says problems around young people drinking relate more to binge drinking. (Alcoholics are binge drinkers too).

Binge drinking my arse - that equals to every weekend for many!!

My view is alcoholics no matter what age will always find alcohol. Unless they realise they have a problem and/or find Alcoholics Anonymous, little can be done for them. Alcoholism is the only disease that tells you you don't have a problem!! The illusion is astonishing!! lol. So put this group to the side in this instance.

However, these days you are now getting these 18 year olds able to access alcohol more readily with lots of lovely varieties too, yes they are drinking more (hell how can they afford it??!!) and gee whiz they are getting into trouble! I am so surprised NOT. They don't have the maturity to handle it etc -

From what I have observed I reckon it is the young women that are suffering most - being taken advantage of - I've watched these sleazeball men hone in on really drunk young women - yuk (Mind you it is the only way they would get laid - you'd never fk it sober). The women have no idea how drunk and ridiculous they look or are aware of their behaviour - all over guys as well and very little on dress wise (I never thought I'd hear myself say that lol) and man you wish they would cover up some of the hefty flesh - cos the ones I have seen in Courtenay Place lately have not been slender beings! and everything is hanging out everywhere. (And I observed this at the start of the evening!!)

An incident 2 weeks ago - a guy was very drunk - fell into the sea around the Overseas Terminal - dead! I had seen the "Missing" notices in the supermarket! (So men suffer to!!)

I certainly don't have all the answers but lowering the drinking age was a big mistake.

I know there have been threads on this topic and I don't mean to prolong it - but the above press release flabbergasted me.

[Finn]

Of course they won't raise the drinking age. Look at how much money they are making from the sale of alchohol.

[Flatcap]

Of course they won't raise the drinking age. Look at how much money they are making from the sale of alchohol.

There is no drinking age, only a purchase age. Again it all lies with personal responsibility. Lets not let the Nanny State penalise the responsible 90% of 18-20 year olds for the actions of a few.

[Deano]

Of course they won't raise the drinking age. Look at how much money they are making from the sale of alchohol.

Unfortunately the extra revenue is spent in other areas on the extra 'problems'
generated. More crime, more health issues.

That's how they supposedly work out the cost of a liquor licence - work out the cost to society then divide that by the number of licencees.

Lowering the 'purchasing' age just gave the Govt every 18 and 19 year olds vote for the election.

[Magua]

There is no drinking age, only a purchase age. Again it all lies with personal responsibility. Lets not let the Nanny State penalise the responsible 90% of 18-20 year olds for the actions of a few.

What were the figures like before they lowered the drinking age compared to today?
If they did change the law, my hard drinking mates would just get their older friends to get them their booze.

[Flatcap]

Lowering the 'purchasing' age just gave the Govt every 18 and 19 year olds vote for the election.

Lowering the age was a logical move given the number of loopholes available to allow 18s to purchase. The purchase age was 18 by default.

It is all about policing the law - increasing the age to 20 will make no difference if it is not policed.

[Flatcap]

What were the figures like before they lowered the drinking age compared to today?
If they did change the law, my hard drinking mates would just get their older friends to get them their booze.

Exactly - thats what I did as a teenager

[Deano]

Lowering the age was a logical move given the number of loopholes available to allow 18s to purchase. The purchase age was 18 by default.


I'm not aware of any loopholes that allowed a sub 20 year old to legally purchase liquor.

[cowpoos]

all this talk about drinking.....I feel like a beer now....aaah piffft....fucking ten past 3....better go milk some frickin cows!

[Str8 Jacket]

all this talk about drinking.....I feel like a beer now....aaah piffft....fucking ten past 3....better go milk some frickin cows!

Just drink WHILE you milk them...

[Lil_Byte]

What has really changed - I seem to remember a pub that I used to be able to go to in school uniform. I think I was 15 - 16 at the time.

If you want to drink - you will no matter what the rules are. Education is the only way to try and moderating drinking behaviour, but I seem to remember someting about New Zealands binge drinking culture :scooter:

[marty]

Lowering the age was a logical move given the number of loopholes available to allow 18s to purchase. The purchase age was 18 by default.

It is all about policing the law - increasing the age to 20 will make no difference if it is not policed.

so by that theory, the default age is now 16?

[Lou Girardin]

Raising the drinking age would be admitting to a mistake - it'll never happen under Labour. Everyone knows they leave their cock-ups for the next Govt to fix.

[Deano]

Raising the drinking age would be admitting to a mistake - it'll never happen under Labour. Everyone knows they leave their cock-ups for the next Govt to fix.

And blame previous Governments for the existing ones.

[Patrick]

There is no drinking age, only a purchase age. Again it all lies with personal responsibility. Lets not let the Nanny State penalise the responsible 90% of 18-20 year olds for the actions of a few.

Fairly high percentile there young fella... I am picking it is more like70% of well adjusted and responsible... check out any town CBD on a Friday/Saturday to get an idea.

However, that is what laws are for... to protect the dumbarse minority who will go out and do something stupid to ruin it for everyone else...

[scumdog]

Exactly - thats what I did as a teenager

But did you get out there at 15 and 16 and try getting into pubs all the time and then making a drunken dick of yourself openly in public like happens today??

Didn't happen when I was a teenager, if you got some booze and were under 21 (or 20 later on) you made damn sure you kept a low profile.

[Patrick]

Just drink WHILE you milk them...

WOT??? Straight off the teat???

[scumdog]

so by that theory, the default age is now 16?

Yup, and you get 17 year olds bleating "Why can't I get into the pub, I'll be 18 next year" WTF???

Last guy that tried that and was turned back by the doorman was pissed as a chook already and agro-as so got pepper-sprayed for his efforts, never heard of that kind of crap down here with the 20 drinking age.

Bloody Jenny "I've got no idea what I am talking about" Shipley and her 'cafe culture' drinking ideas, like THAT type of drinking was ever going to be dominant in New Zealand!! Pffft!

[Jeremy]

A more interesting question is why can't you go into a casino yet at 18? In Australia it's 18 [at least in some states, not sure about all].

Anyway raising the drinking age to 20 doesn't make any sense. Why not raise it to 25? Or 40? Or maybe 120? It's 18 because you can vote at 18, and if we ever get into a major war and conscription is invoked again you'll get called up at 18. What I'd much rather see is the driving limit decreased to half a standard drink for all age groups.

[Flatcap]

I'm not aware of any loopholes that allowed a sub 20 year old to legally purchase liquor.

As I recall (via my booze addled memory)

If you were 18 to 20 and
-with your spouse (over 20)
-with your parents
-eating a meal
-at an RSA

But I am prepared to be corrected

The eating a meal clause was key - in my student days the Student Union would charge $2 for a food voucher to enable "underage" drinkers to legally drink.

[scumdog]

A more interesting question is why can't you go into a casino yet at 18? In Australia it's 18 [at least in some states, not sure about all].

Anyway raising the drinking age to 20 doesn't make any sense. Why not raise it to 25? Or 40? Or maybe 120? It's 18 because you can vote at 18, and if we ever get into a major war and conscription is invoked again you'll get called up at 18. What I'd much rather see is the driving limit decreased to half a standard drink for all age groups.

What the hell has the age of being called up got to do with the drinking age?

It's one of the dumbest bits of non-logic yet "OH, if you're old enough to go to war you should be old enough to drink" WTF??

And the only link with the voting age is 'cos the politicians want the vote from 18 year olds so they dropped the drinking age to win votes from 18 year olds.

18 year olds mostly don't need called up, most volunteer 'cos they're dumb and have little idea of mortality, it's always 'somebody else' that is going to get killed.

Rant over until somebody else brings this crap up again.

[Skyryder]

The reason they have not and will not lower the drinking age is that no party wants to lose the youth vote.

National advocated a change (conscience vote) to the lowering of the age as a result of the Brewery's loss of market share to wine sales.

Skyryder

[Swoop]

A more interesting question is why can't you go into a casino yet at 18?

You can. It is called "the pub".
Pokie machines are the curse of society, and if you want to relly look at problem gamblers....

I have heard that the carpet around the pokie machines in the casinos, gets replaced every three months due to the patrons refusing to leave "their lucky machine" and go for a piss............

[BigTex]

Well speaking for someone who benefits from the law here... <--- 18

I enjoy being able to go into a pub and have a drink if I like. I think the average teen tho thinks they should drink until they can't stand which is a real problem. I rarely get "blasted" unless it's a special occasion and then I still don't make an ass of myself.

Should the drinking age be raised? I think so. Kids these days are just not responsible enough to handle it.

[oldrider]

I have just speed read the thread and don't see anything in there that surprises me but I would like you to know that what is happening today with the booze is exactly what happened in my day.
The only difference is, today there are more of them and their drinking is legal at 18 instead of 21.
I used to go into the pub and drink and get pissed and make a complete Joe of myself when I was 14 years old.
The one thing that does not happen today, that did happen back then, is the teaching of "personal and individual responsibility"!
I for one, on this subject, was a very slow learner but it is like Mrs Marsh's piece of chalk, "it does get in"!
These days they don't even start to teach the kids about responsibility, they just turn them loose and wring their hands in despair when the kids fuck up!
My opinion ,for what it's worth is, throw away the drinking age limit altogether (free up the police from that so they can concentrate on real laws) and start teaching our kids about life's true values, self respect, respect for others, action and consequence, personal responsibility and accountability.
Reward them appropriately when they get it right and reward them appropriately when they get it wrong!
Does "society" do that today? Not on your Nelly! It is not the "drinking age" that is the problem, it is the PC, do gooder driven, wacky, socialist state that we live in.
Give the responsibility for the children back to the parents and support the parents in how to raise "their" children lovingly and responsibly, without the state getting in the way.
I am not an advocate for the return of the cane, more for a return to an honourable society and advocate for teaching "personal responsibility".
There are occasions when the rod is the last and most appropriate resort, well in such cases bloodywell use it, at least the offender will show some respect for authority after the pain subsides.
I say that from experience too and a substantial amount of "deserved" pain.
I am a graduate "with honours" from the New Zealand College of Hard Knocks. :shit: John.

[Jeremy]

What the hell has the age of being called up got to do with the drinking age?

It's one of the dumbest bits of non-logic yet "OH, if you're old enough to go to war you should be old enough to drink" WTF??

And the only link with the voting age is 'cos the politicians want the vote from 18 year olds so they dropped the drinking age to win votes from 18 year olds.

18 year olds mostly don't need called up, most volunteer 'cos they're dumb and have little idea of mortality, it's always 'somebody else' that is going to get killed.

Rant over until somebody else brings this crap up again.

It's not that they need to be called up, it's that they can.
Someone who is 18 can go to war. [at 17 to memory] If they can be trusted to goto war, to vote, to drive, to be married, to sign a contract, buy a house. Then they must be suitable to choose if they want to buy alcohol.

[scumdog]

It's not that they need to be called up, it's that they can.
Someone who is 18 can go to war. [at 17 to memory] If they can be trusted to goto war, to vote, to drive, to be married, to sign a contract, buy a house. Then they must be suitable to choose if they want to buy alcohol.

'Trusted' is the crucial word, sadly a hell of a lot of 18 year olds do NOT have the maturity required despit the law saying they can do whatever.
After all, you can get married at 16 - but how many do and how many succeed??

And all the examples you quoted do NOT make it logical that drinking at 18 is automatically o.k., why MUST they 'suitable' to choose if they want to buy alcohol???

When the age of consent for hire-purchase was 20 there was not as many young ones getting into such financial grief, they had some time to get a job, get a bit of maturity.

What happens if the age for the things you mentioned was dropped by law to 15, would that naturally make them 'suitable' to choose???

[Jeremy]

In Italy, Denmark, Belgium, Germany and France it's 16. Switzerland it's 14 in parts. And I have no problem at all with all of those things being dropped to 15. Remove it completely, I don't mind.

The thing is the majority of the 18 years old do have the maturity to handle the responsibilities the law gives them. They must do otherwise there would be significantly less 19 year olds. If society is going to hell in a handbasket why does it still work?

See people only see the ones who are causing problems. You don't hear about the others. You never hear about the one who doesn't drink that gives his mates a lift back from the party. You never hear about the one who decides he's going to make the world a better place. And you certainly never hear about the one who's just being normal.

Because that doesn't sell newspapers. People want to read what confirms their views of the world.

Anyway ultimately it's about choice. If you want exceptional people you need to give people freedom to screw up. They have to be given the choice to buy alcohol and then choose to be responsible.

[Deano]

As I recall (via my booze addled memory)

If you were 18 to 20 and
-with your spouse (over 20)
-with your parents
-eating a meal
-at an RSA

But I am prepared to be corrected

The eating a meal clause was key - in my student days the Student Union would charge $2 for a food voucher to enable "underage" drinkers to legally drink.

Might have been before my time. I've been in the industry since 1998.The spouse one is correct, but that was to avoid a ridiculous situation where an 18 year old couldn't have a pub meal and a drink with their 20 year old spouse. Consumption is certainly allowed anywhere, at any age, providing you are with your parents.

I'm pretty sure eating a meal or being in an RSA didn't allow purchase if you were under 20. (not since 1998 anyway)

[Swoop]

I am a graduate "with honours" from the New Zealand College of Hard Knocks. :shit: John.

You have a QBE then.

Qualified By Experience....

[Indiana_Jones]

Time for a drink...


<img src="http://www.geocities.com/amie_07/TomCruise/Cocktail03.jpg">

COCKTAIL

-Indy

[Lou Girardin]

Time for a drink...


<img src="http://www.geocities.com/amie_07/TomCruise/Cocktail03.jpg">

COCKTAIL

-Indy


I don't go to gay bars.

[Lou Girardin]

In Italy, Denmark, Belgium, Germany and France it's 16. Switzerland it's 14 in parts. And I have no problem at all with all of those things being dropped to 15. Remove it completely, I don't mind.

The thing is the majority of the 18 years old do have the maturity to handle the responsibilities the law gives them. They must do otherwise there would be significantly less 19 year olds. If society is going to hell in a handbasket why does it still work?

See people only see the ones who are causing problems. You don't hear about the others. You never hear about the one who doesn't drink that gives his mates a lift back from the party. You never hear about the one who decides he's going to make the world a better place. And you certainly never hear about the one who's just being normal.

Because that doesn't sell newspapers. People want to read what confirms their views of the world.

Anyway ultimately it's about choice. If you want exceptional people you need to give people freedom to screw up. They have to be given the choice to buy alcohol and then choose to be responsible.

That's very touching. But alcohol related problems are increasing among the under 20's. They have proved they're not capable of handling the responsibility. When they can drink like the Italians, French, Spanish etc then they can have a lower drinking age.
It's all about earning the right to drink.

[Coyote]

The drinking age is laughable. I know 13-14 year old girls who are already getting pissed and knocked up every Friday or Saturday. The guys tend to be a year or so older

I however have never been drunk. I'm not popular enough

[Clockwork]

How will they "earn" this right once they are prohibited, when they nay-sayers will simply say "remmeber what happened last time the drinking age was 18".

Why do people assume that its only 18-20 year olds causing societies drink related problems?

And why should the innocent and responsible ALWAYS end up loosing their rights and privileges to curb the excesses of idiots?

For a predominantly right wing bunch of individualists that regularly bemoan the nanny state interfering with their freedoms, there suddenly seems to be plenty of advocates for depriving the freedoms of others.

[Ixion]

Well, why NOT have a drinking licence (but only for under 25s please. Leave us old buggers out of it.)

Young volk take some sort of course, and get a licence. They already have to show ID all over the place, so it would be no extra problem to stamp a "Booze OK" endorsement on it. And if they got into trouble the licence could be revoked.

[Clockwork]

It could to be used to limit access to licensed premises and off-license sales, people could get around it by getting their mates to supply the booze off-licence BUT if you were required to be a license holder (i.e. under 25) you could make it a summary offence to be found with excess breath/alcohol in public.

[chickenfunkstar]

That's very touching. But alcohol related problems are increasing among the under 20's. They have proved they're not capable of handling the responsibility. When they can drink like the Italians, French, Spanish etc then they can have a lower drinking age.
It's all about earning the right to drink.

Who are 'they'? All under 20's?

Most of my friends and I have been drinking fairly regularly since about 16 - 17. I've been to a fair few parties since then, and I can only remember 1 fight in that time. That was only a minorish scuffle between 2 people I didn't know in West Auckland. I'd consider myself to be fairly typical for my age.

I'm not suggesting that no problems at all are caused by alcohol, but i'm certainly not gonna take 1 News / Paul Holmes' word for it.

I think that this argument is kinda academic anyway. Underage people are always gonna have access to alcohol, regardless of what the purchasing age. My parents have always encouraged me to drink responsibly, i've been having a beer with dinner from the age of about 7 or 8. When I was 16 - 17 mum would buy me a dozen or whatever to take to a party. I can't see how this would be different with 'irresponsible dole bludging KFC eating TAB spending parents' either.

Prohibition for 18 - 20's has never / will never accomplish anything meaningful.

[Jeremy]

That's very touching. But alcohol related problems are increasing among the under 20's. They have proved they're not capable of handling the responsibility. When they can drink like the Italians, French, Spanish etc then they can have a lower drinking age.
It's all about earning the right to drink.

Prove it. Find the stats to back up your claim that alcohol related problems are increasing in the under 20 age group. I'm fairly certain that you can't because a preliminary search the auckland uni library site says that there's no affirmitive studies in NZ.

Also I think you'll find that all of those countries consume more alcohol than we do. http://www.alcohol.org.nz/NZStatistic.aspx?PostingID=1833

And none of this special license business for under 25 year olds. We aren't "special citizens" we have to follow the law exactly the same as you do. We are either adults or we aren't. It's akin to saying that people over 25 don't need a license to drive because they're over 25...

[Ixion]

..
And none of this special license business for under 25 year olds. We aren't "special citizens" we have to follow the law exactly the same as you do. We are either adults or we aren't. It's akin to saying that people over 25 don't need a license to drive because they're over 25...

Well, not quite . You have to follow the law as do older volk. But the law is sometimes different. F'instncae , I am allowed (I think ) 80 summats per wozzynot of alcohol per gigathingy of breath. Or 400 other summats . You, being young , aare allowed less. I dunno what, cos I never bothered 2 find out, cos we didn;t have any of that crap when I was young enough for it to be relevant. but yours is a lot less than mine. And publicans are supposed to check your ID cos you look under 30 or summat, but don't have to look at mine cos I am obviously over 100

But, for what its worth, I personally don't agree with any set rules. Trying to control, what people drink by making laws about who can buy the stuff is never going to work.

[scumdog]

Lotsa laws are like the liquor ones - illogical to younger ones.

I.E. You need a firearms licence to buy a slug gun at 16 - but not at 18 - but you need a firearms licence to buy a regular rifle etc - but you can't get one until 18.

And as far as stats to prove alcohol related problems are increasing for under 20s?
Just ask a street cop for anecdotal evidence, a lot of those offences are not documented officially.

And drink driving is worse for younger ones compared to 8 or so years ago or at best has not improved.:yes:

"Young ones know the score, they're not the problem, it's the old school hardened drinkers that are the problem" Yeah right!!! Pfffft!

[Jeremy]

And drink driving is worse for younger ones compared to 8 or so years ago or at best has not improved.:yes:


Possibly because the drinking age was only lowered seven years ago. Also it's impossible to tell, the dataset is really small and has no determinable shift in proportion to the drink driving of the other ages groups. Which to me would suggest the opposite, that changing the age limit did not have a determinable detremental effect [you'll have to excuse me, I can't remember whether this holds true, it's been a while since I've done hypothesis testing in stats].

Really though this paints a scary picture. The alcohol limit is lower for this age group remember. Set the alcohol limit the same as the other ages groups and you'd find the proportion of drink drivers in this age bracket would nearly vanish, but nothing would have changed. As for the majority of this age group it's above their legal limit but nowhere near the limit for those over 25.

I'd prefer the reverse though, I'd wish they lower the limit. Zero would be a really nice number. Because then the drivers are never tempted to have "just the one". But guess which age group complains about this.

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

[QUOTE=Jeremy;747063]Prove it. Find the stats to back up your claim that alcohol related problems are increasing in the under 20 age group. I'm fairly certain that you can't because a preliminary search the auckland uni library site says that there's no affirmitive studies in NZ.

Forget these ponsy stats - they are certainly not the be all and end all. - go to the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous - they never get into the stats - talk to the Salvation Army people that have bridge programmes - they can't keep up with the demand.

I do voluntary service in this area - not only are the particpants getting younger and younger - they are also into the drugs/party pills at the same time - there is no moderation apparent at all in these people.

The problem isn't helped by politicians - crikey alot of them are raving alocholics - I've served enough of them at high classs functions - where "the policy makers" were invited. I don't intend to name drop but I've served a couple of prime ministers their "speciality drinks" - and other politicians - then at the end of the evening they are poured into their chauffeur-driven vehicles (paid by the taxpayer). These functions were held at discreet venues where the public don't go!! or would come in contact with.

I'm certainly not against people drinking - as long as they can handle it.

An what am I doing awake at this ungodly hour and it's the weekend!!!

[scumdog]

Possibly because the drinking age was only lowered seven years ago. Also it's impossible to tell, the dataset is really small and has no determinable shift in proportion to the drink driving of the other ages groups. Which to me would suggest the opposite, that changing the age limit did not have a determinable detremental effect [you'll have to excuse me, I can't remember whether this holds true, it's been a while since I've done hypothesis testing in stats].

I'd prefer the reverse though, I'd wish they lower the limit. Zero would be a really nice number. Because then the drivers are never tempted to have "just the one". But guess which age group complains about this.


Sorry, forgot it was 'only' seven years ago, seemed longer than that
Jeremy, just come out some Saturday night with me in summer and I'll show you all the problems first hand that statistics don't show about young drinkers, the problems were not there to that extent prior to the lower drinking age..
Behaviour, health, assaults and unexplained STDs all linked to 14-16 year old age groups and alcohol.
Sure, people use to drink young when the age was 20 anyway but not to the extent now and not in pubs (down here anyway) and making violent dicks of themselves out on the street.


And the breath alcohol thing? I agree - or maybe lower the adult level to the youth one.

[Flatcap]

Sure, people use to drink young when the age was 20 anyway but not to the extent now and not in pubs (down here anyway) and making violent dicks of themselves out on the street.




A large part of the problem nowadays is a lack of respect for society and police and the law generally. In my day (jesus I sound like an old codger) the lads would go out boozing, get up to mild shenanagins and go home. None of this throwing bottles at police and assualting ambulance personnel.

I can't see how raising the age by two years is going to cure a lack of morals and social awareness.


Also - surely it is better to drink in a pub, where there is a degree of control, than to have your older mate buy from the bottlestore to drink in the park...?

[Swoop]

Statistical evidence?
How about an upward trend in teenage pregnancy???

Oh, that's right. The gubbinment pays for and encourages that happening...

[Drunken Monkey]

As I recall (via my booze addled memory)

If you were 18 to 20 and
-with your spouse (over 20)
-with your parents
-eating a meal
-at an RSA

But I am prepared to be corrected

The eating a meal clause was key - in my student days the Student Union would charge $2 for a food voucher to enable "underage" drinkers to legally drink.

The bar had to have a particular license (why it was still R20 for nightclubs, but not student pubs). The technical term for it was "family lounge bar". There was some inconsitency in the law over the last few years of its existence, there was a ruling in a Dunedin court where the judge said a bowl of fries did not constitute "a meal", but a pie did. I beleive it was an Auckland court where the "bowl of fries" rule was contested and won.

[oldrider]

A problem facing facing the "young of anyday" is that the older generation have usually forgotten how tolerant "they" wanted the "older" generation to be, when "they themselves" were "the young of yesterday"! :shit: John.

[Patrick]

[QUOTE=Fairlie;747276]I can't see how raising the age by two years is going to cure a lack of morals and social awareness.QUOTE]

Bring back the religeous teachings in schools.... and the cane/whip.

[padre]

Its natural to want to drink. Fish do it. Birds do it. Aint that how the classic song goes. If ya want my opinion we should bar these juveniles from central city at weekends. Put them back into local halls with discos - heavy security presence to monitor the drunken antics. Then when they graduate to not crawling about spewing their ring out (round 20 - 25) then they get a pass enabling pasage to Courtney place. Religious Police are needed down there, with all the meat on display our Iraqi guests will think they're still in Saddams party place. So religious Police armed with blankets and sticks need to photograph offenders before covering them up - put the pics in the paper on Monday. Not every fem is J-Lo.Yeah yoooo beeyutys - ha!