Death of the two-stroke

[Crasherfromwayback]

Of the Two Stroke.....

I'm sad to say I read today that Honda will cease to produce the 2 stroke line of CR's from the end of '07'. Same goes for their outboard mtrs etc.
They will be 100% 4 stroke.
Now you just KNOW everyone else will follow.

For those of us (probably a fair few) that started out on the smokers....that's a sad day I reckon.

[Str8 Jacket]

Thats pretty sad news. Maybe I will hang on to my KR now....

[Big Dave]

Smelly smokey noisy and all squeezed into a narrow little peaky power band - the problem is?

[Str8 Jacket]

Smelly smokey noisy

Just a few of the reason's that I love mine!

[Crasherfromwayback]

Smelly smokey noisy and all squeezed into a narrow little peaky power band - the problem is?

That'e enough about me mate....

But...if you've ever ridden something like a KX or CR 500......you'd miss them to!

[Sniper]

CR 500......you'd miss them to!

Screw that. Ive ridden my mates CR500 and I'll never miss that. Scary fucken thing

[Crasherfromwayback]

Screw that. Ive ridden my mates CR500 and I'll never miss that. Scary fucken thing

I know what you mean mate, but that was the best thing about them.
Sure taught you the meaning of the term 'Throttle control'!

[Big Dave]

That'e enough about me mate....

But...if you've ever ridden something like a KX or CR 500......you'd miss them to!

Fair call - but I have ridden all the Mach series Kwakas and a waterbottle. Smelly, smokey, narrow......

[Sniper]

I know what you mean mate, but that was the best thing about them.
Sure taught you the meaning of the term 'Throttle control'!

It did indeed, only after I did a 15ft jump when I wasnt even wanting to. I think the seat still has the crease from my arse clamp

[KLOWN]

Smelly smokey noisy and all squeezed into a narrow little peaky power band - the problem is?

the problem is they will be gone and we won't be able to pollute and songs like the crazy frog will never be produced again!!

hopefully the apprilla rs250 will stick around I still want to buy one of those as they are one of my dream bikes..

mmmmmm 70+ horsepower on a bike lighter than a 250 4 stroke I couldn't think of anything better except maybe two of them

[nudemetalz]

Funny how that they were developing and racing four-strokes in the '60s when everyone else was doing the 2-strokes. Then they conformed by going to the 2-strokes, now these are going, they're back to where they started !!

[inlinefour]

Smelly smokey noisy and all squeezed into a narrow little peaky power band - the problem is?

There is nothing quite like holding on to a 2-smoker going nuts in powerband for dear life. I need a bigger 2-smoker allready, nothing quite like it really...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Fair call - but I have ridden all the Mach series Kwakas and a waterbottle. Smelly, smokey, narrow......

I now know why you won't miss them!
I'm impressed that you still have all of your own limbs......

[Deano]

I grew up on an RM80 and had a few 250 road bikes.

They were FUN with a capital F.

And if run on the best oil, they smelt goooood.

I miss the old two stroke injection adrenalin buzz.

[Crasherfromwayback]

And if run on the best oil, they smelt goooood.



Try running a tiny amount of Castrol 'R' in your fuel tank.

[VasalineWarrior]

Farewell o ye two strokes!

I shall have to buy one before emisions nazis outlaw them

Nothing like overtaking a four banger on a glorified lawnmower engine and covering them in a haze of blue smoke

If you've never ridden one then you've missed out-powervalves make you feel like your 12 again and its your first time on a big bike :sunny:

[nudemetalz]

I see even the CR85R is going and a CRF150 is replacing it.
http://www.racerxill.com/articles/detail/1059/the-2007-honda-crf150r.aspx

My first bike was a 1980 CR-80R. The amount of times it spat my puny 12 year old body off as it hit the powerband was endless !!!
I loved it !!

[TLDV8]

Fair call - but I have ridden all the Mach series Kwakas and a waterbottle. Smelly, smokey, narrow......

Really...Remind me what the fundamental difference is in port layout and oil feed between a 1972/73 Kawasaki H2/H2A and a 1974/75 H2B/H2C ?
*
*
Honda never liked two strokes.When i started riding Honda had no two stroke roadbike in their range and Suzuki made no four strokes (The first being the GS750)

Fwiw..... The two 1975 Kawasaki H2C's in the pic were valued around $58000 some years back.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I see even the CR85R is going and a CRF150 is replacing it.
http://www.racerxill.com/articles/detail/1059/the-2007-honda-crf150r.aspx

My first bike was a 1980 CR-80R. The amount of times it spat my puny 12 year old body off as it hit the powerband was endless !!!
I loved it !!

Know what you mean....imagine the damage I did to my equally puny 14 yr old body when i convinced my parents to let me trade in my RM125B for an RM400c!
Still got the scars from it....

[merv]

Thats pretty sad news. Maybe I will hang on to my KR now....


You could "mount" it, like as a showcase for the lounge.

I never had a hard out 2 stroke like a CR because back when I started we rode bikes like A100, TS185 etc and in their day they had quite torquey engines without narrow power bands because they didn't have the top end of the race bikes nor the top end of the 4 strokes for that matter so at the end of '73 I switched to 4 strokes and have never owned a 2 stroke since.

[Big Dave]

Really...Remind me what the fundamental difference is in port layout and oil feed between a 1972/73 Kawasaki H2/H2A and a 1974/75 H2B/H2C ?
*
*
Honda never liked two strokes.When i started riding Honda had no two stroke roadbike in their range and Suzuki made no four strokes (The first being the GS750)

Fwiw..... The two 1975 Kawasaki H2C's in the pic were valued around $58000 some years back.

As in 350cc, 500cc and 750cc 'swot I meant.
'59 Bonnes pull big money too and they weren't that flash either. :devil2:

[Pwalo]

Honda never liked the smelly things anyway. To be honest I'm suprised it's taken them this long to phase them out.

Still I'll miss them in a misty eyed, nostalgic, sort of way. I'm sure that I remember my two stroke days (TS's, GT's, RD's, and one scary session on an H2) with a lot more affection than I had at the time. Still there is nothing like a two stroke to improve your corner speed (provided it wasn't that afore mentioned H2).

[Big Dave]

You could "mount" it, like as a showcase for the lounge.



Sex sex sex - it's all he ever thinks about.

["D" FZ1]

Two smokers definetely had there place but technology moves on.

[Deano]

I'm sure Mr Honda liked them in their heyday in the 80's and 90's.....NSR250R champ for about 5 years......Gardner and Doohan on the 500's, then Rossi.....

[Motu]

all squeezed into a narrow little peaky power band -

No power band on the DT230,it comes on hard off idle and all the way till it signs off somewhere...no tacho,no rev limiter.If you do bog it out in too high a gear,just a fan of the clutch gets it flying again.

Honda fought against 2 strokes for many years,but finally had to make them to be competitive.I'm not surprised they are the first to officially drop them.

I blame it all on the Kalifornian's - that one small state in one country can dictate what we ride and drive,and even how we mow our lawn.Land of the Free my arse!

[Ghost Lemur]

Glad I snapped up my CRM when I had a chance. Now the only way they'll get it is to pry it from my cold dead hands.

Would love to have a road-breed two stroke in the gargre to keep the crm company. Oh, and one of the larger two stroke machines too.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Kalifornian's - that one small state in one country can dictate what we ride and drive,and even how we mow our lawn.Land of the Free my arse!

I think I read somewhere (the interbweb, probably, so it MUST be true) that California is the worlds fourth largest economy.

[limbimtimwim]

Nothing like overtaking a four banger on a glorified lawnmower engine and covering them in a haze of blue smokeYour CBR400 did that too.

[limbimtimwim]

Well, this isn't really news. But still, in 10/15 years, they will be sooo rare. It will be sad. I learnt to ride on a smelly Suzuki TS185ER.

[sels1]

Honda fought against 2 strokes for many years,but finally had to make them to be competitive.I'm not surprised they are the first to officially drop them.

I well remember the hooha when Honda first brought out a two stroke...much to the amusement of those of us already riding riding them.
Ahh nostelga...those TS and DT trailbikes....the RD series roadbikes...that Kwaka triple that would buck you off the back if the plugs ever ran clean.......

[nudemetalz]

Well, their first effort at a sports bike wasn't too flash now was it....

[Crasherfromwayback]

Well, their first effort at a sports bike wasn't too flash now was it....

A perfect example of the big 'H' doing things differently simply because they can!

[spudchucka]

Screw that. Ive ridden my mates CR500 and I'll never miss that. Scary fucken thing

IT490 was the nearest that I've ridden, that was bloody scary too.

[jim.cox]

Fair call - but I have ridden all the Mach series Kwakas and a waterbottle. Smelly, smokey, narrow......

smelly and smokey they may be,

but you aint ever going to persuade me that a waterbottle (buffalo?) is narrow.

The only narrow thing on them was the powerband.

They were (and still are) big fat pigs of a bike

[jade]

i fucked up this post

[Buster]

It will be sad to see the two strokes fade away but thats progress I spose.
Theres nothing like "clearing the pipes" at the begining of a ride and getting that huge smile on your face.

I dont care much about chook chasers, so no loss to me.

[steved]

First is me on my Honda NSR (mc18) 2 stroke 250
Next is my 95 Aprilia rs250 (which was written off a month ago)
Next is my 2000 Aprilia rs250 (I bought it today)
Jealous?
To be honest ... not really.

[jade]

First is me on my Honda NSR (mc18) 2 stroke 250
Next is my 95 Aprilia rs250 (which was written off a month ago)
Next is my 2000 Aprilia rs250 (I bought it today)
Jealous?
woops - pictures in wrong order - little bastard is my 95
the factory one is the one i bought today

[Crasherfromwayback]

Screw that. Ive ridden my mates CR500 and I'll never miss that. Scary fucken thing

Funny thing is...my RMZ 450 is just as fast as my old KX500 (I've raced Anthony on it) even with road race gearing....they just don't feel anywhere near as fast.

A whole lot easier to use...BUT a LOT dearer to maintain.
For sure that was another great thing about 2 stroke engines....cheap and quick to rebuild.

And call me a weirdo....but there is something well sexy about a hand made expansion chamber!

[TLDV8]

Jealous?


250cc's is nice but 770cc is Evil (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/manurewa/resto.jpg) :done:

[jade]

I'd die.. straight up

[sAsLEX]

IT490 was the nearest that I've ridden, that was bloody scary too.

See the XR's are being stopped as well due to Nazi noise regs, was reading this in an aussy mag so maybe its just over there

[awesker]

glad i got my rgv250! cant wait to get her road legal! :sunny:

[Big Dave]

smelly and smokey they may be,

but you aint ever going to persuade me that a waterbottle (buffalo?) is narrow.

The only narrow thing on them was the powerband.

They were (and still are) big fat pigs of a bike

Aye - the first sentence read 'narrow powerbands'.

[Ixion]

Nothing narrow about the powerband on the Buffalo. It fact it doesn't have one. Power is pretty much linear from 1500rpm up to the red line at 6500

[Mr. Peanut]

My NSR is extremely tractable, simple to repair and given a few more years of development, clean too.

What makes more pollution? An worn out car? Or an Aprilia RS250 with cat converters, used on a semi regular basis...

[Big Dave]

Nothing narrow about the powerband on the Buffalo. It fact it doesn't have one. Power is pretty much linear from 1500rpm up to the red line at 6500


Oh, a 'flatliner'. (with smoke)

[roogazza]

Fair call - but I have ridden all the Mach series Kwakas and a waterbottle. Smelly, smokey, narrow......

Mach 4's ! smelly and smokey sure ! and rattle and clang, but certainly not peaky (unless you took a file to them ?) stock, they only revved to 7500 and I think from memory made more torque than a 750 4 Honda of the day.
Best , most exciting bike I ever owned.

ps can't send a photo , cameras weren't invented then. G.

[craigs288]

And then there was the time I thought I was the man (the 16 year old man) on my brother's PE.
Trying to hold it wide open until it 'runs out of powerband' sounded like a good idea. Doing it in a small quarry was a bad idea.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Mach 4's ! smelly and smokey sure ! and rattle and clang, but certainly not peaky (unless you took a file to them ?) stock, they only revved to 7500 and I think from memory made more torque than a 750 4 Honda of the day.
Best , most exciting bike I ever owned.

ps can't send a photo , cameras weren't invented then. G.

The most exciting bike, and yes the peakiest too....was my ZIRTC.
Yikes!
No power at all till around 7500, then best you be pointing in the right direction, cause you soon weren't!!

[Big Dave]

ps can't send a photo , cameras weren't invented then. G.

laffed I did.

[roogazza]

The most exciting bike, and yes the peakiest too....was my ZIRTC.
Yikes!
No power at all till around 7500, then best you be pointing in the right direction, cause you soon weren't!!

Thats got me beat, bet ya wished you still owned it ?

Behave yourself at P Is. this weekend ! cheers G.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Thats got me beat, bet ya wished you still owned it ?

Behave yourself at P Is. this weekend ! cheers G.

Mate, that is the ONLY bike I've ever owned that I wish I'd never sold, you're right!

Worse still, I took it with me to Australia and sold it there......

Behave?? Pah.....where's the fun in that?

[TLDV8]

Mach 4's ! smelly and smokey sure ! and rattle and clang, but certainly not peaky (unless you took a file to them ?) stock, they only revved to 7500 and I think from memory made more torque than a 750 4 Honda of the day.
Best , most exciting bike I ever owned.

ps can't send a photo , cameras weren't invented then. G.

H2's were known more for this ? :innocent:

[Motu]

Most aggressive 2 stroke I've ever ridden was a Husky 250,about '84,a water cooled twinshocker.When it hit the power band the front wheel was in the air,didn't matter if you were only on half throttle,didn't matter how far you got up on the tank or how far you leant over the bars.There was no way this thing could be on the power band in a corner,if it had traction it would just rotate the bike on the rear wheel.We used to hoon around the streets as well as off road.I lost control of another Husky 250 in a crazy wheel stand and went into a Taranaki box thorn hedge.

Scary,but addictive....

[Theatre]

There is nothing quite like holding on to a 2-smoker going nuts in powerband for dear life.
Well put, even on my tiny 150 its fun! For those who say two strokes are horrible learners bikes, garbage. Its two bikes in one, nice and slow puttering around and then crazy when you open her up. Who cares that it sounds like a lawnmower and singlehandedly causes global warming, you'll be having a better time than the guy on the 4 stroke smelling your beautiful 2 smoke :sunny:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I must say....a 'proper' 250 GP bike is not only a thing of great beauty, it's also an amazing thing to ride.
RS's more so than TZ's.....if any of you get the chance to ride one...do so.

[Lord Derosso]

My first bike was a classic TS185 semi trial. Went everywhere on her.

Remember riding a few GT's in the early 80's. Different type of ride from todays modern superbikes. It was 'real' scary ass to seat stuff with no real handling to mention but still fun ! A cop once told me that the Kawaie H series killed more riders in NZ in the 70's than any other bike due to poor cornering and what was very high speed for it's day. eg H2 750cc and H1 500cc triples. I saw a poster of them lately and they do look so cool still.

Rode with friends in the early 80's and one of the guys had one of the smoke boxes. Another did one one but it got stolen after being on display. You know the guy P.

[Big Dave]

Sorry - still not buying it. even the Mach 4's acceleation pales compared to the ZX14 - the same surge - but it goes 'forever' on the four stroke.

Gimme a big grunty 4 valve dohc any day with 200 ponies and i'll tell ya who'll be smellin' fumes. :Pokey: ;-)

[Lord Derosso]

H2's were known more for this ? :innocent:

No.... I have been behind one at 120 kph( let him go ahead of me to keep his ego since I was on the original GS750 ), and the smoke is still in your face at 50 metres gap.

[Ixion]

Sorry - still not buying it. even the Mach 4's acceleation pales compared to the ZX14 - the same surge - but it goes 'forever' on the four stroke.

Gimme a big grunty 4 valve dohc any day with 200 ponies and i'll tell ya who'll be smellin' fumes. :Pokey: ;-)
Uh, is it not significant that you can even MAKE a comparison given the ZX14 has the advantage of double the capacity and 40 years of extra development ?

How I wonder would the ZX14 stack up against a 1400cc 21st century two smoker? (Especially remembering that the H series were simple piston ported machines)

[Big Dave]

Uh, is it not significant that you can even MAKE a comparison given the ZX14 has the advantage of double the capacity and 40 years of extra development ?

How I wonder would the ZX14 stack up against a 1400cc 21st century two smoker? (Especially remembering that the H series were simple piston ported machines)

There you go again - letting facts get in the way of a good arguement!

We were talking about the demise of the two stroke were we not - like 'today' - I reserve the right to quantum leap!

[TLDV8]

(Especially remembering that the H series were simple piston ported machines)

Indeed,but that doesn't stop the fastest Kawasaki H2 750 on the Planet running a 7.7 ET @ 170mph....... I wonder if anyone will remember any of the bikes released this year in 34 years time,i doubt it,holding any kind of World Record even less so...H2's will still be around when the said ZX14 comes back as a Coke can. :laugh:

<a href="http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/manurewa/?action=view&current=H26.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/manurewa/H26.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

[TLDV8]

How I wonder would the ZX14 stack up against a 1400cc 21st century two smoker?

Some folk thought direct injection might have been the Two Strokes savior but not much came of it (Not forgetting the demise of the Bimota V-Due 500)
Clean burning engines could have been built but the powers to be stopped it.If it were not for the Asian market they would be long gone..... As far as performance against modern engines,200 to 350HP two strokes are a reality given the engine management systems now available.The writing was on the wall when jetski's started going to diesel engines.No doubt in the next few years the diehards will have to meet covertly so they can run their weed eaters up on castrol to remember the good old days.

[Brian d marge]

better start with the statement, I love two strokes , I mean why use any more ?
The old water bottles were designed as a touring bike , ie a huge powerband ...they failed at that niche , But in other spheres the 2 stroke shines.

I sat down earlier this year and had a big think over what I wanted from my race bike, in X country te power delivery is import but the overall speed is low , I WAS going to use a small fourstroke ( come back to this ).. but I decided to stay with the 2 stroke , ( I ll decrease the carb size , and fiddle with exhaust timings ~)

I think that Honda is focusing on four strokes as ( as we have heard , kalifornia, ALSO its where all the development is , F1, motogp MX all share the same research, it just good business sense.

One of the biggest problems with two strokes is traction . as the rear wheel goes round , one a two stroke it its being stressed by the power pulse Every revolution of the engine ...like a hammer belting a way a thousand times a second .... Increase the power ( IE the force of the blow of the hammer, ) and you will tend to break traction more often .....

you can see why they went towards the big band style engines ....

With injected 2 strokes I had a discussion paper from yamaha about a 100 cc feul injected 2 stroke , and the speed of the electrics were a problem ..the electricity was to slow...

Finally ( with the mx bikes at least, ) the four stroke bikes are VERY highly stressed , YOU MUST maintain ..ie change the wear parts , such as valve springs or they WILL break... and thats great for the bottom line of a motorcycle manufacter

Stephen

must hurry rossi is trying for the lead ...

[Hillbilly]

.....hopefully the apprilla rs250 will stick around I still want to buy one of those as they are one of my dream bikes..

mmmmmm 70+ horsepower on a bike lighter than a 250 4 stroke I couldn't think of anything better except maybe two of them

I'v been looking at their Italian website, and no mention of the RS 250, just the RS 125. Looks like the RS 250 has gone the way of the dodo, as street version anyway.

[edit] After reading through all of this thread I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on a Cagiva Mito.

[spudchucka]

See the XR's are being stopped as well due to Nazi noise regs, was reading this in an aussy mag so maybe its just over there

There was talk of it on thumpertalk.com too but somebody posted a US Honda link showing the xr650r in the 2007 line up.

I have to admit that the muffler on my XR doesn't do a great deal of muffling, could be interesting for me at WOF time.

[nudemetalz]

Ahhh,...I reflect back when I used to own my RZ-500 back in 1993.
Just the feel and the noise as it came on the pipe (s) at 6000rpm.
You haven't lived 'til you've done that !!

[TLDV8]

No.... I have been behind one at 120 kph( let him go ahead of me to keep his ego since I was on the original GS750 ), and the smoke is still in your face at 50 metres gap.

Sorry you lost me :confused: No smoke involved,the attached pic was a wheelie shot (What H2's are mainly known for).... The problem with the whole Triple thing being,the legend gets bigger by the year.Most are bolic stories of not handling,100 mph wheelies blah blah ....... You question folk and their experiance most times was based on one wobbly lap of the block.Most Japanese bikes of the era were a little shy in the spring/damping area.

Sure the 72/73 750's smoked a bit,they would do with an oil passage going straight into the floor of the inlet port.The 73/74 (B&C) bikes have seperate oil feed lines going to the carburetor bowls and a better oil pump so it worked better emmission wise.

[wickedstuff]

Its hard to say if the 2 stroke bikes will be banned from road altogether? even if they stop producing them? but i recon if youve never owned a good one? now would be the time to buy one! and enjoy the fun of them, either a RS250 or RGV250 or go for a dirt bike, at least you can youve owned one and had some fun! the main thing as most ppl know is tune them right and pick good oils to suit the type of bike :) there is alot of knowledge on 2 strokes and different forums so help is only a click away! if you think your a good rider? get on a 500cc 2 stroke motorcross bike, you will either have a smile for week? or shit ya pants? :)
then you can say woooo 2 strokes rock! have fun! thats whats it all about!

[Madmax]

I LOVE BIG BORE TWO STROKES wonder why
:love:

[limbimtimwim]

Its hard to say if the 2 stroke bikes will be banned from road altogether?Got banned in California years ago.

[davereid]

Got banned in California years ago.

Ah yes, the american brain. Bans the 49cc two stroke cos its a polluter. But the 440 cubic inch engine is OK cos its a 4 stroke.

:scooter:

[Ivan]

Mate I am a 2 stroke man through and through vey sad news about Honda but dont worry the hinese will start making them so we will never see the end of them you wait until HOnda sells off all there 2 stroke engine designs to the chinese we will be seeing Jonshin or whatever they called


the mighty Jonshin Motox125 or whatever


GO THE MIGHTY SMOKA

[gijoe1313]

Dizzam, and just after I got Daisy too! Good thing, it's great fun to ride two-stroker smokers! :woohoo:

[Motu]

Big Johnson and the Iron Horse - taming the abundant wilderness on a sunday afternoon....fueled by Double Brown.Ah,those was the hay day of the 2 stroke....

[Ivan]

Sorry to disagree but I doubtthey will go whatabout KTm they are developing there engines in 2 stroke using fuel injection and are going to release there 125GP to the market I doubt that would be the end of 2 strokes big companys like them wouldnt waste there time on them developing a engine that is going to die.

Also Aprilia are developing there engines in 2 strokes


If you havent noticed Yamaha and Honda stop making 2 strokes,
Yamaha owns Rossi
Honda want to beat Yamaha and Rossi
It kinda adds up when you work out that all there money is running into these engines and riders


Honda quit making 2 strokes and devolping them about the same time Rossi goes to Yamaha

Same with Yamaha


Everything goes back to Moto GP


Aprilia and KTM tho


They dont race Moto GP and what happens they start devolping the best 125 and 250 GP bikes

And then start working on ways to make the 2 stroke engine cleaner but still fast and are developing to beateach other

The Invention of GP racing data loggers and Det Counters

All add to the development o 2 strokes to cut emissions and then data log engine to see wether or not its a power loss


Dont look at the Japanese market look at the Europeon market

[2Cycle]

2 Strokes are far from dead. Making a comeback if anything in the outboard motor market.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_-7I00cZUE0

Ha ha see the 4 stroke get owned :yes:

Yes I know it's not a bike but you can see where this could lead to. If public perception of 2 strokes as being bad for the enviroment can be changed. Then thats probably the biggest battle.

Also for those that don't know, these 2 stroke outboards are easily as clean burning as the 4 strokes and meet the same emission standards.