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babyB
3rd May 2003, 22:53
i been surfin the net and found an artical on counter v body..makes interesting reading, especally when they designed a bike ( a Kawa zx6r) with 2 sets of handlebars ..1 normal set and the other set solid mounted to the frame so they wernt connected and didnt rotate the forks....to test the theory of counter steering, body shifting, peg weighting and the effects.......

http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

Coldkiwi
5th May 2003, 12:54
Interesting article! I've made myself learn to countersteer deliberately after having heard my instructors story of avoiding a muffler in his line on the motorway. Its really amazing how easy and fast it is. It also works very nicely under a touch of brakes through the tairua esses!!!

wkid_one
5th May 2003, 13:06
If you read any motorcycle book - it is actually impossible to steer a bike without counter steering at any speeds over about 20kph.  By pressing the inside handlebar away from the corner you are inducing the bike to lean toward the corner hence creating turn.  You have been countersteering all this time without actually knowing it.

This is why we crash on push bikes when we first learn to ride, as we expect to turn towards the corner, where in actually fact we need to countersteer on push bikes also.

Read Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist - he explains it very well.  Counter steering is a natural way to steer, in fact if you tried to steer conventionally, you would crash the bike something wicked!

 

babyB
5th May 2003, 17:40
so true....

i wish they put a photo of the ZX6R on the site....would have loved to seen the set up mind you i would have liked to have seen it in action (could have been comicaltoo.lol)

Kwaka-Kid
5th May 2003, 21:44
i fully agree with wkid_one... ive been doin git all this time? well when i first got my full bike licence a few years back (or 1.5 :P) and rode the gs1000, i was used to my 250 single where all idid was lean.. an d yes obviously minor unnoticable natural counter-steer... jumped onto the GS1000 and had great difficulty back then with my puny white arms and only like 60kg of weight to get the bike to corner properly... infact nearly went into a gutter.. came so close @ INCREDIBLY low speed for the corner.. untill my old man explained it and i read TOTW.. and started purposly countersteering.. which forced the bike to lean for me.. thought it was great.. but u cant just expect to stay upright and countersteer as i found out along the way.. still gotta throw body @ it to make the corner work... and yeah.. on the GS i still do major countersteer to start pushing the bike down.. whereas on my GPZ750 (which i just put back on hte road hte other day) its totally different i find.. i dont try.. i just like. start leaning and its very very slow but smooth and nice sorta lean/cornering.. i love it :D

What?
6th May 2003, 19:41
Interesting - there has been much debate in a number of bike mags in the last few years about this subject, particularly Two Wheels; counter steering versus weighting pegs etc etc. It is a crap debate! the only difference between steerring methods is your consciousness, i.e. what you are aware of doing. What ever you do on the bike ultimately affects the bike in the same way. It is just that some methods require less effort for the same result.:done:

(Keith Code may not be God, but he must be God's right-hand man)

babyB
6th May 2003, 23:07
Its the thought that counts

Turn your thoughts and idears into motion

if your ideas match up with the road and the bike - how the bike works, the turn and its construction, your estimated speed, how much braking is requied, gear changing etc - youll probably have a good turn...   

Then what about comfort and stability http://www.cornering.com/us/keiths_corner/comfort_and_stability.shtml

Keith Code the formost motorcycle riding instructer in the world and founder of the California superbike school

Marmoot
7th May 2003, 22:31
Countersteering...hmm....this topic always reminds me of a day when I rode through Waingaro (SH22) from Puke to Ngaruawahia on a GN125. Totally funny, dude. A loaner from a bike dealer. heehehe :D
After the ride the screws underneath the footpeg was only half of the original size. Now, THAT is what I call a fun ride.

SPman
13th May 2003, 19:52
Hey BabyB, this photo was on the site....:)

SPman
13th May 2003, 19:55
And this

babyB
13th May 2003, 23:16
thanks for that SP

Dose this count as body steering????????

 :eek:

bluninja
14th May 2003, 08:03
So is that a hardtail or soft tail??

Anyways, whilst countersteering is what makes the bike turn I do think that body position and bodyweight are important too. Try countersteering into a bend whilst leaning the 'wrong' way and you'll see what I mean.

TTFN

Kwaka-Kid
14th May 2003, 16:26
done that/do that heaps. its fun, thats how i nearly lost hte front of my 400 coming home in wet.. just pushing bike down and kinda lening other way :)

and i do it heaps in streight lines on motorways.. i just wobble the bars side to side rapidly feeling how twithy the bike will slap from side to side.. and in a way u cud say i mleaning hte wrong way, or not at all... its all fun and games

wkid_one
14th May 2003, 17:38
Try pulling a wheelie - crank the bar to one side hard - and then touch the rear brake to drop the front......nice feeling

Kwaka-Kid
14th May 2003, 20:01
okay! right after someone gives me a bike powerful enough to pull a wheelie @ speed without making the clutch smell like mums cooking :P

and all of you get ur grubby mits off that bike! im gunna marry it! :D 

wkid_one
14th May 2003, 20:58
You'll be right KK - unless you need to take a right hand corner - then you'll crash!  HAHAHAH

Here is an idea - go round a corner and try and get your knee down on the outside of the bike - that is something I would pay to see happen........

One of the things to really consider in cornering is the position of your arms.  Many riders ride with their arms almost at lock out.  However. if you drop your forearms to be parallel to the ground - you will notice that turning the bike is significantly easier - why??  Because more of the energy is being used to push to bars away from you, rather than a higher position which means some of the energy is actually pushing the bars down........it makes cornering shit loads easier - plus puts you in a better riding position - allowing you to dip your shoulder better to the centre of the corner.

If that fails - shut your eyes!

 

Motu
14th May 2003, 21:50
It's just gyroscopics,we all know that - but lets look at it again.

We hold the standard bicycle wheel by the axle and spin it - turn it to the right....Whoa! the wheel tilts to the left! cool!

Spin her up again...now tilt it to the left - yikes!..it turns to the left!....freaky eh?

The best way to see it in action is to watch a speedway bike - turn the front wheel and the bike lays down...the bike lays down and the fixed rear wheel turns - we are sideways!! .

The art of speedway riding is just forces of nature at work.

Redstar
16th May 2003, 22:52
I've only discovered the wonders of countersteering about a year or so before that I was a traditionalist. knee tank grip.
I never under stood why my seat sloped off left and right and was so under padded. now I knee down shift weight and apply pressure to the rear. What a buzz and so much safer.
I wish i was 17 again you lucky bastards..

Antallica
17th May 2003, 07:10
Originally posted by Redstar
I wish i was 17 again you lucky bastards..

mmwwaaahahaha ;)

It's more fun on mountainbikes.... gotta love stoppies :D

bluninja
17th May 2003, 10:08
Originally posted by Motu
It's just gyroscopics,we all know that - but lets look at it again.

We hold the standard bicycle wheel by the axle and spin it - turn it to the right....Whoa! the wheel tilts to the left! cool!

Spin her up again...now tilt it to the left - yikes!..it turns to the left!....freaky eh? 



Errrr gyroscopics???? Isn't the gyroscopic effect the thing that that actually resists the turning? Hence why turning the front requires more force the faster you go, and why lighter wheels help (as well as improving unsprung mass for suspension). I thought that countersteering caused the bike to 'fall' over the front tyre and the side thrust from the tyres profile caused the bike then to turn. Notice that bicycles and motorbikes (including speedway) have a rounded profile and cars have a flat profile. If it was all gyroscopic then it would work for cars wouldn't it?

BTW when you are on the rear wheel and turn your bars to the right to go left, it is the reactive force from the gyroscopic effect that pushes the bike over and then allows the rear tyre profile to continue the turn.'

TTFN

wkid_one
17th May 2003, 10:36
Yes, you are right Simon - gyro is what wants to keep the bike upright rather than promoting turn.  A testament to that is when you try and brake a gyroscopic force - the bike wants to stand up - if it promoted turn it would want to tuck under.

Hence why lowering your forearms to parallel to the ground is more effective as you are operating your level perpedicular to the force you are trying to alter, rather than obliquely.

 

 

 

Motu
17th May 2003, 12:50
Agreed - to a degree...get that bicycle wheel and give it a spin.Then get some square tyres to try on your bike.If you then turn the bars to the right and turn right,come and show me.Then go and ride a sidecar,and if possible a sidecar with floating top links.Wierd things motorcycles.Try and find a picture of a speedway rear tyre in action - the bike is not running on the edge of the tyre,it's putting down a lot more tread than that.

Hoon
17th May 2003, 14:33
I learnt counter-steering very early as my first bike was an old GS550 which weighed a tonne and counter steering was the only way to get it to turn.  I didn't even realise I was doing it at the time. I remember me and a mate did a 2-up day trip from AKL to Cape Reinga and back, I got tired on the way back and swapped over with him.  We took off (his first time riding my bike) and when we got to the first turn he proceeded to go straight ahead while trying to turn the bars, off the road but luckily braking to a stop just as we went onto the grass. 

He was right after that tho.

bluninja
17th May 2003, 15:51
So Motu, explain how you steer on a unicycle:niceone:

not a lot of gyroscopic force there, but a nice rounded profile for camber thrust.

BTW speedway bikes are actually sliding the rear through the corners, and there is still thrust generated by the tyre profile, the physics of slip angles just gets a bit too much for me to explain. I'll be happy to come and watch you fall on your arse trying to countersteer a flat profile tyred bike. Just put in the steering input, momentum of the bike pushes the bike over the leading edge of the tyre, and suddenly no grip, front washes out....just like if you have a flat at the front, or you are riding KKs bike :o

Here's a suggestion for you to try. Rig up your spinning wheel on your bike in line with the axis of your front wheel. Turn this wheel to left or right and see if it induces countersteer on your bike without any other steering input. If it does then you've proved gyroscopic 'steering', if not........

TTFN