Exceeding the recommended corner speed...

[Posh Tourer :P]

This from the herald today....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?thesection=news&thesubsection=&storyID=3574394&reportID=57539

A man has died on a tour run by a guy I used to work with/for. However, perhaps the most interesting part is at the end:


Coroner David Crerar ruled Mr Prescott died as the result of a ruptured spleen after falling from the bike when he exceeded the recommended speed limit on the corner.

Exceeding the recommended speed limit on the corner was an important factor in his death? Come on! Perhaps riding too fast for the conditions, but exceeding the recommended speed limit? I thought they were guidelines anyway, and going a little faster than that was not immediately dangerous, but only perhaps uncomfortable, even according to law. Could there be a large campaign in the pipeline featuring a person driving faster than the recommended speed limit round a corner, and a slo-mo of all the people he/she is prepared to kill?

Interesting that the article is headlined that state of the road caused the tragedy, while the coroners report states otherwise? And that it wasnt "another motorcyclist speeding" type headline. Probably quite a positive outcome of this all really...

On the rest of the article, a reminder to stay within your limits!!! And dont go trying to prove yourself, cos you might end up like this poor guy...

[Jackrat]

Shit I thought that was half the speed you were supposed to go.
Pity about another biker dieing but yeah,,,com'on huh.

[marty]

i always thought those corner speeds were in MPH

[k14]

I interpret them as being the max speed a 18 wheeler with a full load of lead should take the corner. They are a good indication as to what angle the bend is, but I doubt I have ever actually travelled at the posted speed. Normally it is double it and add a few kms.

[Kickaha]

I did the Inland road about 5 weeks ago from the Kaikoura end and there was a lot of loose gravel,the guy I was riding with had a minor front end loose and we were taking it fairly easy.

[Sensei]

Yea I think MPH the figure & then alittle more .As long as the surface is up to it & your ability :apint:

[Gixxer 4 ever]

Normally it is double it and add a few kms.

Yep I think the same however when up the east coast of the North Island I found corners posted at 15 km/h and you could not double them and add some on. the only place I have found that fits in to this category. :eek5:

[Busted]

Yep I think the same however when up the east coast of the North Island I found corners posted at 15 km/h and you could not double them and add some on. the only place I have found that fits in to this category. :eek5:

Been there ... found those corners ... doubling is not a sane option :thud:

[shandawg]

I really love those corners that are signposted with a "95" sign

What a waste of taxpayers' money

[Motu]

I find I can take the corners at 5kph above the posted speed - on full knobs in the wet....

[bluninja]

I really love those corners that are signposted with a "95" sign

What a waste of taxpayers' money

Especially when you are in a 70 kmh zone :rolleyes:

[Lou Girardin]

You gotta love coroners. This one ignored the gravel and inexperience as the main factors and blamed speed, the LTSA will love him. Then the Nelson coroner said that because a dead driver had a few tokes the night before his accident, that is the reason to not legalise dope. The fact that his blood alcohol was more than double the limit didn't seem as important to him.

[Gixxer 4 ever]

Been there ... found those corners ... doubling is not a sane option :thud:
No good having a GSX-R if you can not find a good set of corners for it to play on. Hence I live on the Napier Wairoa road. You can stick at 100 kmh and be working the bike hard. No flat middles on our tyres over here. When you get a warrant it is the side of the tyre the gage goes for. Got to love this bike country. Been to Auckland a few times on the gixxer and the motorway is fun but she plays up in town. Over heats and runs like shit. :angry2: Get back on the motorway and she wants to go home. :innocent:

[White trash]

What about the one on the Pais Pa Rd between Tauranga and Rotorua?

Gotta be the slowest posted corner in NZ I reckon. What is it, 5kph?

[FROSTY]

I just reread that article. Really the guy was outriding his ability all day. An accident waiting to happen is how I read it. The posted speed was accademic -He was well outside his comfort zone on roads he diddn't know.

[Deano]

Back in my NSR days I used to either double it (and maybe add a bit) if I new the corner, or convert to mph if I was unsure. BUT, there were two corners on the back roads to Palmy Nth (via Shannon) that recommended 65kmh, and it was quite dodgy to take much more than 75km, so whoever the road engineer was who matched the recommended speed to the angle of those corners did a lousy job.

Don't get caught out guys. Unknown roads can be much more dangerous than your local tracks.

[Dr Bob]

There are a few corners going to Coromandel that are posted 15 and 25k, I don't double those. Quite some time ago my boss went over there in a Pajaro towing a boat, his wife came to work telling all of us that he had been driving aggessively all day and on that corner he had gone across the road, the only thing that stopped him from a 200m plummet down to the ocean was that a farmer had banked dirt up because he was sick of tourist from taking out the fence.

[Motoracer]

The signs are great indicators of what speed to travel at. For me I have programed myself to think in the following way:

75-95 = mild
55-65 = medium
45=tight
15-35=hairpins

To me the actual speed in numerical figures is irrelivant. I only ride to have fun but I don't go past the point where I am riding at the cost of some else's safety...

[pete376403]

I'm sure coroners see a lot of dead people but how do they become experts at everything that might cause death? How does a coroner get appointed anyway?

[Paul in NZ]

I dunno how Coroners get appointed but I'll bet a hat full of randy beavers that they STAY appointed by promoting the company line - speed kills...

Actually though.. I rode that strech earlier this year on the dread mk2. It seems all corners were posted 45kph. Some we flew around and breakneck speed and others were unsafe at 45kph. The 45 ought to have been in bold and underlined. Perhaps that was the only sign they had left on the truck? The last sign was the famous 'winding road for xxkm' one.. Ha! They finally admitted they ran out of signs an gave up.

In the article it states...

At the Kahutara bridge, about 20km from Kaikoura, Mr Bycroft saw a lot of loose gravel near a corner. (did he try to warn the tourists in his care?)

He looked back and saw Mr Prescott come into the corner too quickly. (if this guy was pushing it and he was in front why didn't he slow everything down a bit??)

The rear wheel of Mr Prescott's bike slid and he tried to correct but was thrown over the handlebars, landing on his helmet. (his REAR slid out and he went over the bars? high sided it eh?)

Perhaps he was a victim of a lack of skill.... Nah, that couldn't be right. Something has to be to blame surely, it couldn't be the poor victim could it??

Don't get me wrong, the guy is dead and I think thats bloody terrible, imagine having the holiday of a lifetime and this happens... The impact on the tour guide, his fellow riders, friends and family are probably still being felt but....

How many riders that survive accidents ever tell you, I screwed up! Nah.. It's always some one elses fault...

??

Paul N

[James Deuce]

How many riders that survive accidents ever tell you, I screwed up! Nah.. It's always some one elses fault...

??

Paul N

Me. Every accident I've had I could have avoided.

[DEATH_INC.]

Me too!If only they hadn't......... :Pokey:

[Gixxer 4 ever]

How many riders that survive accidents ever tell you, I screwed up! Nah.. It's always some one elses fault...

??

Paul N
I do. Some times I come home from a hard out thrash and sit down with the family around and think to my self " that was dum" But at the time it was a great ride and the big twin ahead of me gets the adrenalin going and you just got to push to the max. When it steps out you just keep the power on and forget about it and go in to the next corner hoping you get this one right. Or when you come up to a corner and brake hard and late so you can get under the bike ahead of you and you find you need all the brakes you have in the front and the back starts the dance so you have to let it off just to get around the corner let alone drop under the bike you have now pulled up along side. But the out side not the inside. Yes if you come off when doing this sort of thing you are dum and I think I have been dum from time to time. :Oops: Now I am getting older I try to stay in the middle of the group but it is just so hard not to start the chase for the front. :brick: I have only dropped a bike once and it was due to speed in a corner. Got off the seat to pull the bike around to avoid a van and when I tried to get back up on the seat I looked up the drain and you know " were you look you go" and well road bikes are not made for off road and it just dug in. I remember bouncing over the handle bars think " keep the new $520.00 helmet off the bloody road" Lots of pain but no breaks so yes it was my fault. :bash:

[Gixxer 4 ever]

Don't get caught out guys. Unknown roads can be much more dangerous than your local tracks.
This is true. It is one thing to go hard on your local road and when you know the road well you only have to think about " what is on the road that was not there 30 seconds ago Oil,goats cows cars etc" But if you do not know the road at all you have so many other things to factor in. You really can not go hard on roads you do not know. Well not safely and you got to think of the bikes you are leading or the other traffic on the road. This probably does not apply to main roads but the twisty stuff. I mean most open roads you could set the cruise control on and have a sleep at 100 k. After all that is the speed limit and we all stick to it. :bleh:

[moko]

Me. Every accident I've had I could have avoided.

Brit police have a saying,"There`s no such thing as an accident,it`s always someone`s fault",and they`re right.
We dont have recommended speeds here but I found them useful while on holiday in N.Z. as someone stated earlier as a rough guide as to what to expect.I found doubling them quite comfortable,didn`t do more than that as having an accident on someone else`s expensive BMW half the world away from home wasn`t something I even wanted to think about.

[Posh Tourer :P]

I agree that unknown roads can be hard to judge, Also, main roads have signs that mean nothing and roads eg round the east coast have signs that mean what they say.

I took a few positives out of this. Firstly, they recognised the poor road state contributed (it musta been bloody awful!!!). Secondly, the article wasnt headed speeding motorcyclist goes nuts...

As for corner speeds, I tend to take them at about 10-20kmh above, or if I know the road well, in miles an hour plus a little....
On an unknown, badly maintained road, maybe 5-10kmh above? It can really catch you out, as the criteria seem to vary with the road importance.


In the article it states...

At the Kahutara bridge, about 20km from Kaikoura, Mr Bycroft saw a lot of loose gravel near a corner. (did he try to warn the tourists in his care?)

He looked back and saw Mr Prescott come into the corner too quickly. (if this guy was pushing it and he was in front why didn't he slow everything down a bit??)

The rear wheel of Mr Prescott's bike slid and he tried to correct but was thrown over the handlebars, landing on his helmet. (his REAR slid out and he went over the bars? high sided it eh?)

Perhaps he was a victim of a lack of skill.... Nah, that couldn't be right. Something has to be to blame surely, it couldn't be the poor victim could it??

I dont think the tour guide can be blamed. As far as I know, these people run a system whereby you get maps and a start and end destination each day, and ride in groups of 4-5 max. He probably wasnt far infront, and slowed down much earlier than this guy. Even in a slow group you can choose to take particular corners fast.

I think it is as Frosty pointed out, and as is in the article, this guy was consistently pushing his limits....Thats the real reason why he died. Very worrying the coroner thinks it is about speed...

[Two Smoker]

I like MR use them as a advisory of what TYPE of corner is coming up...... With the speed, it all depends on how well i know the road.... weather.... road conditions etc....

If i am riding safely and have room for error, i generally convert it too MPH..... Most of the time i double it, but i have been known to triple some corner speed advisories (like the one in my Avatar.....)

[marty]

coroners are appointed by the soliciter general i think. they are (usually) lawyers, and do coronial duties as an addition to their lawyer job. MVA deaths are actually a very small part of the coroner's job - most of the deaths (probably over 90%) are from other causes - heart attacks, old age etc. at the end of the day they have to report to the medical director, and to a higher coroner's audit process, and the Coroners Act is very tightly adhered to.

and it's not like the movies - the coroner (esp. the one's i have worked with) hardly ever see the body. in fact i can't think of a single time that a coroner has been to a death scene in my 14 years - and i've been to a few......

[marty]

actually that's not true - the huntly coroner lives at the top of what used to be 'curletts cutting' - just south of gills gas @ ohinewai (the motorway bypasses it now - in 1992 i attended 19 deaths in a month in that 400m stretch of corners). he used to call 111 when he heard a crash in the fog at 3am, and he came down in his pj's once - to find a triple fatal.

[Skyryder]

The speed sighns on corners indicate the 'maximum' speed that the corner can be negotiated under 'normal' driving conditions. I use the word normal as in wet and not 'extreem' as in ice or snow.

Skyryder

[FzerozeroT]

If i come up to a corner of 55 or below then I'll check for traffic behind, slow down to 55 and criuse around checking out the road surface... then double back and thrash it thru :D

[SPman]

The speed sighns on corners indicate the 'maximum' speed that the corner can be negotiated under 'normal' driving conditions
Skyryder By an average driver in a 1954 Austin A40!

[wkid_one]

The speed sighns on corners indicate the 'maximum' speed that the corner can be negotiated under 'normal' driving conditions. I use the word normal as in wet and not 'extreem' as in ice or snow.

Skyryder
No they aren't - they are designed for the lowest common denominator on the road - eg Trucks and Buses as well. Ie - the speed that ANY VEHICLE on the road can pass safely through the corner at.

[Motu]

By an average driver in a 1954 Austin A40!

Ah,the Sommersalt,but I always prefered the Devil.

[scumdog]

i always thought those corner speeds were in MPH

Me too, they are just a general indication that the road ain't staraight no more. :lol:

Normally good for mph as you say Marty or for metricheads, good for double the indicated speed on a dry road.

WTF why do they put "95"{ signs out there??? like you couldn't take it at 110 or... :doh:

[Mongoose]

Yep I think the same however when up the east coast of the North Island I found corners posted at 15 km/h and you could not double them and add some on. the only place I have found that fits in to this category. :eek5:


Bottom right hand corner of the SI is much the same, wnat speed they post they mean just that and no more!!

[KATWYN]

I did the Inland road about 5 weeks ago from the Kaikoura end and there was a lot of loose gravel,the guy I was riding with had a minor front end loose and we were taking it fairly easy.

If that is that road that cuts across (kinda south from Hamner springs and across a bit-HWY 70? to Kaikoura) thats really hilly and windy with marbles on every corner I'm not surprised. Of our South Island trip we reakoned that road was the road from hell and found out later its been notorious for lots of accidents.

[wkid_one]

Who has had this happen.

Scenario One
Blatting along on an unknown or infrequented road. COme to a corner posted 50kph. So you slow down, shit - coulda done it at 100 you think as you dawdle around. 2 corners later and you hit another 50kph. You don't slow down as much, but still coulda gone round it at 110kph.

Come to the third 50kph corner some 2 mins later...think fuck this, I'm gonna keep her throat open - only to find the fucker should been sign posted at 35kph!!

Scenario Two
You turn off a main away to a by road. Blatting along this new road, Getting used to it. First couple a corners come up sign posted as 45kph, 50kph, 70kph, etc and you are getting in to it. You increase your speed some. Go around that sign posted 45kph corner with your knee down - LOVING THIS.

You come whipping up on the next corner, no sign - WICKED. Hammer in to it to find it is a decreasing radius off camber blind apex downhill corner. You think that corner should just have one sign on it - ONE WITH A BIG BLACK PUCKERED ARSEHOLE ON A YELLOW BACKGROUND - then you remember - oh yeah - that's right - once you are 2km of the main road - they stop sign posting the corners.

I wouldn't mind the posted signs so much if they were fucken consistent.

[Skyryder]

No they aren't - they are designed for the lowest common denominator on the road - eg Trucks and Buses as well. Ie - the speed that ANY VEHICLE on the road can pass safely through the corner at.

Just not sure that busses and trucks are the lowest common denominator on the roads but will leave that one alone. I knew I should have put the word safely in my post but thought the obvious did not need to be mentioned. A few years back I did a Defensive Driving course and one of the participents raised this very question. She, if my memory serves me correctly, thought that they were speed limits for the corner. The course was run by the AA and they had a retired Traffic Cop taking it. To her question he replied that the speed sighn is for normal road conditions. Hence why I excluded extreem. Take some of these corners at the indicated speed in ice snow or fog..............sure you get my drift if you excuse the pun.

Skyryder

[scumdog]

If that is that road that cuts across (kinda south from Hamner springs and across a bit-HWY 70? to Kaikoura) thats really hilly and windy with marbles on every corner I'm not surprised. Of our South Island trip we reakoned that road was the road from hell and found out later its been notorious for lots of accidents.

Went over that road a couple of years ago about this time of year, hell I didn't know I could slide crabwise down the road for so far without arseing off into the trees - mind you my steering wheel was spinning faster than my mags trying to keep straight. (and my arse was sucking the buttons off the seat in fright), a thoroughly nasty bit of road in the winter, beware!! :sweatdrop

[Skyryder]

If that is that road that cuts across (kinda south from Hamner springs and across a bit-HWY 70? to Kaikoura) thats really hilly and windy with marbles on every corner I'm not surprised. Of our South Island trip we reakoned that road was the road from hell and found out later its been notorious for lots of accidents.

Yes I have done this road a few times myself and it can be a bit of trap. It's one of the reasons I come into corners relatively slow. You can make the adjustments if neccessary, under control, then power out when you know it is safe to do so. Still it is a nice road even in leisure.

Skyryder

[marty]

(and my arse was sucking the buttons off the seat in fright), ! :sweatdrop
buttons? what were you driving, a pillow?

[scumdog]

Nope, big-block powered F100 (pick-up truck), lotsa weight at the pointy end and superfat tyres at the arse - not the best for transversing stretches of icy road with ease!! :eek:

Got rid of the buttons (one less after that trip!)

[LB]

I tend to think more of the gear I'm in than the speed when I come up to a posted speed corner. I ride the Paraparas (Wanganui-National Park : 52kms of winding road!!) a lot and am normally in 2nd for a 35km cnr, 3rd for a 45km corner. Obviously that's what suits my bike and gearing, not all bikes.

I agree that some speed signs are inconsistent. I always treat a new/unridden road with respect.

Sounds like the gravel had much to do with this poor chap's demise too. Only done that road once, a few years ago, just a day or two after they had finished sealing it (it had been gravel previously) - the trucks and graders/rollers etc were still all parked on the side of the road. There was pea gravel everywhere, you had to ride really slowly. I didn't really enjoy it that much, though without the gravel it would have been a great road.

Must do it again sometime soon (with due caution)

[KATWYN]

Still it is a nice road even in leisure.

Skyryder


I need a bit more convincing before I would beleive that! :sweatdrop

[Pickle]

That inland road from Hanmer to Kaikoura is fine, like any country road it only takes a stock truck to mess up all the corners by throwing gravel all over it along with smelly green stuff. Been over that road heaps of times including when it was gravel.
Speed signs are indicative only, some signs in the South Island are very close to actual speeds ie going thru to Karamea great road but there is a corner which tightens up goes off camber then flicks back the other way just as you drift over the wrong side of the road.
The best roads are those with NO Recommended speed signs on them as this makes you read the road and not rely on the signs also stops you looking at your speedo all the time.

[Kickaha]

That inland road from Hanmer to Kaikoura is fine, like any country road it only takes a stock truck to mess up all the corners by throwing gravel all over it along with smelly green stuff. Been over that road heaps of times including when it was gravel.


The inland road runs just north of Kaikoura through to Waiau,although there is a turn off just before Waiau that takes you around and across the twin Leslie bridges and brings you out on the road to Hanmer and Arthurs pass.

As of one 6 weeks ago when I rode itI would say that 50% of the corners had loose gravel on them and there are several areas that don't seem to see daylight at this time of year,if you're riding it,take it easy!

[Paul in NZ]

Oh great...

More 'shock horror, killer roads slaughter innocent tourists' etc etc

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3575074&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

Not a lot of depth is finding out if this is true or not?? Having had the chance to drive in other places on the globe I would have to say our roads (on a global standard) are not too bad. Where it does go pear shaped is when repairs etc are done as I think these jobs seem to go to the low bidder. Even if it goes to a bigger firm, they seem to send their least careful employees out to do the repairs.

The effects of these (so called) repairs on single tracked vehicles and car windscreens is a non issue for these clowns... They really either don't care or are too stupid to consider the problems they create.

Another issue is our construction methods... Heaps a' tar and chuck some rocks onna' top... I wonder why it all comes to bits??

Last issue... The transport companies have conned us all that to have a decent economy we need monsterous trucks run buy decent private enterpise angels... What we get is speeding, over loaded monsters, far too big for our roads tearing the shit out of everything and spreading filth (stock trucks). Again, they don't ride so who cares?

Riding a bike is a lot riskier than driving a car but (to me) the rewards are worth it. However, killing myself on some badly designed corner in bum buggery nowhere on a pile of gravel that some illiterate inbred could not be bothered sweeping up while his (or her) mother loving half wit cousin responsible for the warning signs was asleep under a tree having exhausted himself with a morning of P making, dope smoking and casual bestiality is NOT how I want to exit this life...

Build proper roads? It will never happen.. Politician fly! (except rick barker, I went on a trip with him once when he had his T140, now a new Trumpy I think)

How about we just be careful because I'm paranoid does NOT mean they are not out to get me...

Paul N

[Bandito]

Headline should more correctly read
"LTSA HAVE CORONER IN BACK POCKET"

[James Deuce]

Isn't Paul fitting in beautifully :2thumbsup

[scumdog]

Such exquisit prose and discriptions, a man after my own heart and he sums up SOME of the workers EXACTLY - a buch of slack-jawed,mouth-breathing, improvident lack-wits!!
Not ALL are like that but it just takes a couple like that on a job and the lilihood for disasteris there :angry:

[spudchucka]

Not to mention the general operating procedures of most contracting companies - Put in a price to get the job and then figure out where to make cut backs in order to finish the job and still make a bucket load of money.

[James Deuce]

Not to mention the general operating procedures of most contracting companies - Put in a price to get the job and then figure out where to make cut backs in order to finish the job and still make a bucket load of money.

MY Dad used to work for the Ministry of Works, and every school holidays I'd be out there working on roads with him from about age 10 on. Despite all the jokes about them leaning round on shovels, road repair back then used to mean cutting back to the road bed and redoing the layers, not just patchng the holes. Sometimes you couldn't see the join when they finished. Half a dozen guys did the prep work for the motorway from Target Rd up through Sunnynook, and that was a lovely stretch. It took them ages but the job was done right and to a budget. Not the cheapest budget, but the amount of money allocated for the job. In those days govt. beancounters expected people to use the money allocated to a job, or you got less for the next one. Or, quite sensibly, more for the next job if you'd been short on a similar one previously.