Honda Engineering Brilliance

[SwanTiger]

Definitely not the quickest, but you can't help but admire the dilligence put into the design and production of the CBF250.

Around $7,000 NZD New, check http://www.honda-motorcycles.co.nz/

KISS. Beautiful.

[Motu]

Oh,drum rear brake - that's sure dilligence from Honda - nothing brilliant about that!

[Ixion]

A nice little commuter bike. Is that the same engine as the old GB250?. But--- it's twice the price of the GN250. And not much cheaper than the VTR250 .

[SwanTiger]

Oh,drum rear brake - that's sure dilligence from Honda - nothing brilliant about that!
Yes, rear drum brake. But. My point is the simplicity combined with a semi-modern look and nice dash and a few other things make it the perfect learner / commuter. The GV, GN and VLK7 all have rear drum brakes. Its practical.


A nice little commuter bike. Is that the same engine as the old GB250?. But--- it's twice the price of the GN250. And not much cheaper than the VTR250 .
Aren't Suzuki NZ thinking of dropping the GN?

[toymachine]

Aren't Suzuki NZ thinking of dropping the GN?

What on earth for? Talking to a honda dealer on friday and he was saying they can't get enough of them... huge sellers...

[k14]

Oh,drum rear brake
Yeah I see that but please do tell me, what is it used for??? :banana:

[WarlockNZ]

I'd just like to say that i'm shocked and appalled ... Swanny, deserting the Hyosung to push a Honda, what are they paying you, come on spill.

[Grantasaurus]

Definitely not a bad looking bike by any means, but rather gutless by all accounts. I saw a review of it in last months Two Wheels mag.
They've got something pathetic like 20hp, and the front brake is rather weak, which ain't a great thing considering it's only got a lovely, quickly fading, drum brake at the back.
The tech in this thing hasn't advanced since the early 80s

[sAsLEX]

Yeah I see that but please do tell me, what is it used for??? :banana:

I think they are handy in gravel?!

[disenfranchised]

Any ideas how big the tank is...doesn't look like it holds much

Looks wise I prefer the Hyosung (but I would say that cause I own one)
Brakes wise, I'm not sure the hyosung has much more stopping power than a rear drum brake alone ;-)

[SwanTiger]

Any ideas how big the tank is...doesn't look like it holds much

Looks wise I prefer the Hyosung (but I would say that cause I own one)
Brakes wise, I'm not sure the hyosung has much more stopping power than a rear drum brake alone ;-)

The CBF250 Fuel Tank size is 16 Litres.

The Hyosung GT 250 (Comet) has single front and rear disc braking which is adequate for normal motorcycling. However most people think that it is extremely weeky and suggest better quality brake pads.

The GT 250R however, has twin front disc brakes and provide all the breaking power you'll ever need (I own one).

I've ridden a lot of bikes with rear drum brakes and found that the only times I used the rear brake was on gravel or grass/dirt to get the rear to drag.

As far as I'm concerned the rear brake's purpose is to slow the rear wheel down faster than engine braking while the front brake does all the stopping.

My 10 cents.

[disenfranchised]

I've found that while cornering I'm happier to use the reat brake then the front....somehow it seems to help with keeping the line btter.

I'm guessing this is this a dangerous tactic??? Especially if it's wet!

It's not like I hit the anchors hard while turning, but somehow a light tap seems to help now and again...I just can't help it.

[SwanTiger]

I've found that while cornering I'm happier to use the reat brake then the front....somehow it seems to help with keeping the line btter.

I'm guessing this is this a dangerous tactic??? Especially if it's wet!

It's not like I hit the anchors hard while turning, but somehow a light tap seems to help now and again...I just can't help it.

When I first got my GTR it was the "first" real road bike i'd had after the GN 250. I used the back brake a lot when cornering, however after a while (5,000 km or so) I stopped using it.

I don't think there is any right or wrong way about doing these things. Just do what feels comfortable and always seek new information and develop your riding style. It'll always change but you'll hold onto certain habits once they are proven in your mind to be "the right way".

I'd say its only dangerous if you are heavy on it and use it in a "fear reaction" should you enter a corner too fast - kind of thing. Trailing through a corner ain't really dangerous. If it's wet, just ride to the conditions.

We all learn differently. Some have more scars and broken arms than others :buggerd:

[sAsLEX]

I've found that while cornering I'm happier to use the reat brake then the front....somehow it seems to help with keeping the line btter.

I'm guessing this is this a dangerous tactic??? Especially if it's wet!

It's not like I hit the anchors hard while turning, but somehow a light tap seems to help now and again...I just can't help it.

Brake on the straight before its too late!

Braking in corner can upset the bike, that said some racers do it to settle the rear when coming on the power....


Anaru what sort of brakes are they on your front? Floating calliper aye?

[twinkle]

I like the instrument display :cool: and the 16L fuel tank:banana:

[Motu]

My 10 cents.

But the title of your thread says ''engineering brilliance'' - you can't then make excuses for the antiquated rear brake,no stretch of the imagination can call a drum brake ''engineering brilliance'' in the 21st century.Next you'll be raving about the inovative Harley air cooled Vtwin!

[RantyDave]

Sorry but it appears to be, well, garbage.

Like, it's a single, and has a drum brake. Which would be fine if it was $4k new (and, let's face it, they'd have a big success on their hands if it was) - but it isn't. $7k. For something a quarter notch more sophisticated than a GN, and only $1k cheaper than the very lush VTR250.

Why? Why bother? OTOH thank you to Mr Honda for helping hold up the price of second hand single cylinder bikes :)

Dave

[SwanTiger]

But the title of your thread says ''engineering brilliance'' - you can't then make excuses for the antiquated rear brake,no stretch of the imagination can call a drum brake ''engineering brilliance'' in the 21st century.Next you'll be raving about the inovative Harley air cooled Vtwin!

I'm not talking about the performance or the technology, I'm talking about the overall design and its purpose. It is a practical motorcycle, it is beautiful, it does everything one should want from a learner 250cc motorcycle.

[Ixion]

Actually, why does ANY bike need a disk rear brake? Is there any bike out there where rear brake fade is an issue? Sprots bikes, the rear hardly gets used anyway, and under hard braking (when fade would be an issue) the rear wheel is hardly going to be in contact with the ground.

Has ANYONE experienced rear brake fade? ever?

[Motu]

Because I ride a lot of gravel my rear disc gets smoking hot and turns blue,I use the rear brake hard and often - and never had brake fade,disc or drum.I got new pads today...the rear pads are 3 times the thickness of the fronts,so looks like using the rear brake is expected on these types of bike.

I've got no problem with drum brakes,front or rear - I just don't think we can call them engineering brilliance.I think the word SwanTiger was looking for was ''design'' brilliance.

[SwanTiger]

Because I ride a lot of gravel my rear disc gets smoking hot and turns blue,I use the rear brake hard and often - and never had brake fade,disc or drum.I got new pads today...the rear pads are 3 times the thickness of the fronts,so looks like using the rear brake is expected on these types of bike.

I've got no problem with drum brakes,front or rear - I just don't think we can call them engineering brilliance.I think the word SwanTiger was looking for was ''design'' brilliance.

No, engineering was the correct choice of word according to the dictionary.


The application of scientific and mathematical principles to practical ends such as the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems.

This is a Honda ROAD BIKE, not a trail bike, obviously trail bikes are more likely to be used on gravel or dirt and thus are generally designed with the appropriate technology to suite their intended use.

Drum brakes have only been made obsolete due to 'performance' demands from most 'high performance engine motorcycles'.

Honda's are like Hyosung to me, I will defend the name to the grave! My first bike was a Honda Moped that was lovingly thrashed around farm paddocks and the back yard.

[Motu]

This is a Honda ROAD BIKE, not a trail bike, .

:slap: I had noticed that,after a detailed examination.I was answering Ixion's question about brake fade,as an extreme rear brake user I thought my experiance would be useful.

Maybe we can now move on to disect your choice of the word ''brilliance'' - no matter how we look at it,I can't see anything that would make anyone rave about a drum brake in 2006.Defend all you like - the bike is old school in a modern world,it's not brilliant.

[SwanTiger]

FINE! Leave me to my humble thoughts of childhood bliss on bikes with front and rear drum brakes! I still think it is engineering brilliance. Your disagreement is duly noted.

[Motu]

Your hide bound defence of a lost cause is also noted.

I love old school - I own a Lada remember....I actualy don't believe there is such a thing as ''new school'',just old stuff reinvented with new technolgy.What I'd like to see is cutting edge drum brakes....they do have advantages you know.

[Ixion]

I have long wondered if the contracting band drum brake is not due for reinvention.

They have the advantages of the drum brake, in theory at least the fade resistance of a disk(hard to say from experience , since fade was not an issue when they were last around), and a greater friction area than a disk. And no need for 16 squidzillion calipers.

The problems of exposure to dirt water and stones that led to their demise are the same for disks and presumably not a problem on todays roads. The other problem they had, of obtaining sufficient leverage, is long solved by the hydraulics engineers.

Next years brilliant engineering breakthorugh, maybe?

EDIT: Call it a circumferential disk brake, and everybody'll want one.

[Mr. Peanut]

Are you drunk?

The C50 was brilliant, this is an overpriced lawnmower.

[Mr. Peanut]

That's more like it.

[SwanTiger]

That's more like it.

Now that is what I call a bike. Pity about the paint scheme.

[Mr. Peanut]

I have long wondered if the contracting band drum brake is not due for reinvention.

They have the advantages of the drum brake, in theory at least the fade resistance of a disk(hard to say from experience , since fade was not an issue when they were last around), and a greater friction area than a disk. And no need for 16 squidzillion calipers.

The problems of exposure to dirt water and stones that led to their demise are the same for disks and presumably not a problem on todays roads. The other problem they had, of obtaining sufficient leverage, is long solved by the hydraulics engineers.

Next years brilliant engineering breakthorugh, maybe?

EDIT: Call it a circumferential disk brake, and everybody'll want one.

Would be far more expensive to manufacter than a disk brake I imagine. Would you want to pull it apart? >_<

[Mr. Peanut]

Now that is what I call a bike. Pity about the paint scheme.

Not like theres much to paint. It comes in black. It's my next bike :2thumbsup

Here's a nice 250 Honda.

[Motu]

Would be far more expensive to manufacter than a disk brake I imagine. Would you want to pull it apart? >_<

Since when has price come into it? Is a dohc 4 valve 4 cyl 6 speed cheaper to make than a pushrod single?

The 3 most important things with brakes are - leverage,mean effective radius and heat disapation....the disc brake only has one of these.Buell has gone to a rotor out to the wheel rim,giving maximum radius (a reinvention of the Phillips disc brake I think).

[Ixion]

,,Buell has gone to a rotor out to the wheel rim,giving maximum radius (a reinvention of the Phillips disc brake I think).

Hmm. Stirrup brakes anyone?

But, seriously, its prolly time someone took a fresh look at brakes. The disk brake was and is a nasty thing. Only reason it became prevalent was , as Mr Motu says, it does heat dissapation well. Nothing else well, just that.

And in the 50s and 60s , both with bikes and cars, the friction material technology had plateaued, heat dissapation was the big issue with brakes. So disks gave an edge in racing. And cos racers had 'em boy racers and squids had to also, thence the wrld. But it's still a nasty thing. And with modern advances in technology , probably unnecessary.

For that matter, do we need brakes on the wheels at all? What about transmission brakes. Ever seen what THEY can do? Or regenerative braking? People always think the key to the future is more of the present. People lack imagination.

[sAsLEX]

The 3 most important things with brakes are - leverage,mean effective radius and heat disapation....

And it you want to go fast Inertia!



For that matter, do we need brakes on the wheels at all? What about transmission brakes. Ever seen what THEY can do? Or regenerative braking? People always think the key to the future is more of the present. People lack imagination.

Check this out a car mind you with no brakes and 640HP
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

[Edbear]

And it you want to go fast Inertia!



Check this out a car mind you with no brakes and 640HP
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html



Nice! Unfortunately it is bound to have a stratospheric price, too. This is the main problem - the engineering has to be cost effective and cost competitive and this is the reason we have old technology in our cars.

Imagination is alive and well in our designers and engineers, but the beancounters and the wallets of Joe-public is what takes the time for these innovations to find their way into our cars and bikes.

[sAsLEX]

Nice! Unfortunately it is bound to have a stratospheric price, too. This is the main problem - the engineering has to be cost effective and cost competitive and this is the reason we have old technology in our cars.

Imagination is alive and well in our designers and engineers, but the beancounters and the wallets of Joe-public is what takes the time for these innovations to find their way into our cars and bikes.

Watch a little documentary called "Who killed the electric car?"

And you will see there is much more to it than that!

[Mr. Peanut]

What about transmission brakes. Ever seen what THEY can do?

Thought about that. These new fancy torque splitting systems can provide excellent traction during acceleration. Could the same process be reversed for braking?

[Crasherfromwayback]

But, seriously, its prolly time someone took a fresh look at brakes. The disk brake was and is a nasty thing. Only reason it became prevalent was , as Mr Motu says, it does heat dissapation well. Nothing else well, just that.

And in the 50s and 60s , both with bikes and cars, the friction material technology had plateaued, heat dissapation was the big issue with brakes. So disks gave an edge in racing.

The only reason? Nothing else well? Just that?

Utter crap.

[Ixion]

Mr Motu's three - " leverage,mean effective radius and heat disapation".
Add weight. And cost. And "crashability"/durability . And easy maintainance. Which of these apart from heat dissipation do y'reckon the disk brake does well? Or any others you wish to add.

Bear in mind, we're talking engineering here, so answers like "They stop bikes well" and similar are not relevant. From a engineers perspective, then.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Mr Motu's three - " leverage,mean effective radius and heat disapation".
Add weight. And cost. And "crashability"/durability . And easy maintainance. Which of these apart from heat dissipation do y'reckon the disk brake does well? Or any others you wish to add.

Bear in mind, we're talking engineering here, so answers like "They stop bikes well" and similar are not relevant. From a engineers perspective, then.

One at a time then.
Add weight? Over what? A carbon disc weights fuck all.

They love heat.

The last thing you're worried about when you bin it is if your brakes still work.

Hardly say replacing pads or rotors is a tough job.

Tell me all about the system you'd rather use and why?

Then email HRC and make a 'mill'.

[Motu]

Add weight? Over what? A carbon disc weights fuck all.


And if we apply the same technology to something else? A duo servo drum brake applies over 5 times the application force to the drum.....a disc brake 0.5 - that's half what you put in gets applied,terribly inefficient,but damn good on heat disapation.All any other braking system needs is better heat disapation - ever seen racing trucks? They have water cooled drums.

[Crasherfromwayback]

And if we apply the same technology to something else? A duo servo drum brake applies over 5 times the application force to the drum.....a disc brake 0.5 - that's half what you put in gets applied,terribly inefficient,but damn good on heat disapation.All any other braking system needs is better heat disapation - ever seen racing trucks? They have water cooled drums.

As I said. Email HRC. You could be on to something.
But in the 'body' of the email....make sure you attract attention to the 'motorcycle' division.

Oh yeah......'feel' is quite a nice attribute too.

[Crasherfromwayback]

But it's still a nasty thing. And with modern advances in technology , probably unnecessary.

For that matter, do we need brakes on the wheels at all? What about transmission brakes. Ever seen what THEY can do? Or regenerative braking? People always think the key to the future is more of the present. People lack imagination.

Until we have two wheel drive (not far away I know), just how do you think transmission brakes of any type would be a plus on a motorcycle?
And liquid cooled drums on racing trucks....all good. But we're talking motorcycles. Weight is a problem. Disc brakes are used STILL in cutting edge race vehicles...F1 cars, Moto GP bikes etc. Because they're the best avail technology we currently have for the application, not purely because the only thing they have going for them is heat dissipation.

[Motu]

Kinda like telescopic forks,they are far from ideal - but the best solution to date.

The ATK has always used a transmission brake - at the final drive sprocket.I've never ridden one of course,and hear it is an aquired taste.....but the alternatives are always out there.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Kinda like telescopic forks,they are far from ideal - but the best solution to date.

The ATK has always used a transmission brake - at the final drive sprocket.I've never ridden one of course,and hear it is an aquired taste.....but the alternatives are always out there.

I have, and 'aquired' is a polite word!
I always wanted to get my hands on the 700cc two stroke they made...
Alternatives are out there for sure....but I thought this was about disc brakes being only good at heat dissipation.....which I don't think is true.

[carver]

When I first got my GTR it was the "first" real road bike i'd had after the GN 250. I used the back brake a lot when cornering, however after a while (5,000 km or so) I stopped using it.

I don't think there is any right or wrong way about doing these things. Just do what feels comfortable and always seek new information and develop your riding style. It'll always change but you'll hold onto certain habits once they are proven in your mind to be "the right way".

I'd say its only dangerous if you are heavy on it and use it in a "fear reaction" should you enter a corner too fast - kind of thing. Trailing through a corner ain't really dangerous. If it's wet, just ride to the conditions.

We all learn differently. Some have more scars and broken arms than others :buggerd:

using the rear brake while cornering is a good move.
i do it all the time, come in too hot, gently introduce the rear brake, just before half way..power on, and your out!
works for me, now my foot goes instinctivly over the rear brake while going into a corner.
i learnt that from dirt bikes and trying to ride a scooter hard:banana:

[Jeaves]

Would be far more expensive to manufacter than a disk brake I imagine. Would you want to pull it apart? >_<

When it comes to car manufacturers its cheaper to make a drum setup than disc .

ie base model Mitsubishi Colt 2006 has drums on the rear.

Im guessing this applys to bike manafacturers as well .

[The Stranger]

I've found that while cornering I'm happier to use the reat brake then the front....somehow it seems to help with keeping the line btter.

I'm guessing this is this a dangerous tactic??? Especially if it's wet!

It's not like I hit the anchors hard while turning, but somehow a light tap seems to help now and again...I just can't help it.

It's called trail braking, and is a well recognised technique. That said some bikes benefit from it and some don't.

A drum rear should be more than adequate for trail braking, especially on a 250.