Corners - pretty simple when you think about it

[Bob]

Ever wanted to be able to pull someone over and say "Please learn how to do that properly, for your own good as well as everyone else"? Well I wish I could have done so tonight.

Riding home tonight, sat behind a guy who, I hope, learns what he is doing pretty quickly.

He is riding a CB250, so guessing new to the game. Anyway, he approaches the bend. Given the way the speed is bleeding off, he has shut the throttle and is going to coast round the corner.

Bad enough in itself, but he leans the bike over a little... then BRAKES mid-corner!

I sat back, waited for a chance - then got round him and out of harm's way as quickly as possible.

Guessing he is a car driver that has just got into bikes - I see no end of car drivers doing the same thing every day. At least with a car the ABS, BBS and probably CBS (you can tell I don't drive a car,) kick in and save them from their own stupidity. On a bike? One of these days a move like that is going to get him into serious trouble.

[wari]

JUst as welll he wasnt in AUckland on the bus root ...

Deisle diesle ... diesel ... (none of them look right) ... on every corner. :thud:

[El Dopa]

So that's the wrong way to do it.

Anyone want to walk those of us who are new to this through the right way?

Wari - the 3rd one (diesel) is correct

[Firefight]

JUst as welll he wasnt in AUckland on the bus root ...

Deisle diesle ... diesel ... (none of them look right) ... on every corner. :thud:



Don't know what the first two are, don't think your D8 would have run that well on them :blink:

F/F :whistle:

[FROSTY]

is there such a thing as the "right ' way round a corner ?
Sure in theoery the idea is to bleed all the exess speed off in a straight line. cornering should be accellerating very lightly setting up to get maximum drive into the next straight line.
Reality varies with every corner and situation.
I know guys who take the classic wide in tight out type of line -big sweeping curves and other guys that chop a corner up into a couple of radical bites getting drive between the bites.
I guess if everyone agreed races ould be really really boring.

[SPman]

On the road, surely the right line, is a line that enables you to smoothly progress around the corner with the minimum of drama and minimum amount of speed loss, while letting you see what is through and around the corner....

[Jackrat]

So that's the wrong way to do it.

Anyone want to walk those of us who are new to this through the right way?

Wari - the 3rd one (diesel) is correct

Mate it depends on your bike and the situation but the way Bob described it,the guy should have changed down and kept steady power on right through out the corner.Useing your brakes mid corner is a definate no no unless you really know what your doing.Touching your back brake will tend to drop you farther into the corner and can help in some situations but you better have practised it a few times as it can also brake the back end loose.
Hitting the front brake will stand the bike up, but again it can also dump you on your face so get into your local Fav' practice area and practice it before you do it on the road.
Where I live you take left hand corners in the center of your lane or to the left, if you go in wide you could likely meet one of the locals cutting the corner from the other direction.They ALL BLOODY DO IT.

[wkid_one]

I just pleased with any corner that I manage to stay on the bike after

[Wenier]

yea i reckon jus keepin steady power thru the corner so u can get onto drive as soon as your out is correct. On the road the line doesnt matter as long as u take one that doesnt cause u to brake hard mid corner.

[moko]

Touching your back brake will tend to drop you farther into the corner and can help in some situations but you better have practised it a few times as it can also brake the back end loose.


I always cover my back brake while cornering,been told it`s a no no by loads of people,all with years less miles and experience than me,and it`s got me out of the shit a couple of times.Like Jackrat says though it`s not the kind of thing you want to start doing straight off.
When I`m riding I position myself to see the most of the road,out to the R.H. side for left hand bends and in towards the side of the road for right handers,out in the sticks I do like Jackrat,ride so as I can see what`s coming and they can see me as far as possible,if that`s the wrong side of the road then fine,better than ending up being some Hick`s bonnet ornament.

[k14]

Ohh, thats an accident waiting to happen.

I had a pretty shady moment last weekend, coming up to a 25km posted speed hairpin I was changing down the gears changing into 2nd just before I was about to tip it in, but for some reason it went into neutral, fuck, managed to just lean it over not panic too much and changed back into second when I was out of the corner. Could have easily run wide or paniced and braked and lost it.

When I was first riding I managed to go round the corner with the clutch in, learn't pretty quickly that is a big no no, don't know why but it does something funny to the balance of the bike. It actually feels like you speed up a little, it is fairly uncontrollable aswell.

As for braking in the middle of a corner, I never do that weather I'm on my bike or driving a car.

[wkid_one]

Shit I do it all. Stay out wide turn in late is my predominant technique. I tend to turn in quite sharp/steep, I do cover the front brake mid corner - but only principally enuf to shave a bit of speed. Prefer to get on the power asap to level the bike out and transfer the weight to the back of the bike..

[Wenier]

don't know why but it does something funny to the balance of the bike.
it is fairly uncontrollable aswell.


Im pretty sure that is because without the drive being provided the forces keeping you up off the ground when leant over like that are not all there.

And the rear brake is handy if you havent gone into a corner leant as far over as possible, as if ya start to run wide and no wut ya doin ya can tap it and make the bike tip in more for a even tighter line to get you back on course, of course if your really running wide then ya probably fukd

[marty]

i prefer to late turn in - probably a lay-over from club car rallying (on the seal) days. different kettle for the dirt though. i found on the RS if i tried to muscle the bike it would just dip in violently. not a good look on country roads with grass enroaching the seal. i found APPLYING the front brake mid corner is the no-no. feathering it to keep the bike settled was ok though. the RS liked a little bit of rear brake to keep the suspension settled - especially on bumpy corners. not a lot, just a thought's worth.

won't be needing too much braking on the new beast though. had to put off the pick up til monday. boo hoo :(

[Skyryder]

Go to http://www.msgroup.org/DISCUSS.asp

Read articles 29 and 30. He seems to know what he's on about.

Depending on speed I usualy brake during the approach and while the bike is still upright. I think it was K14 who mentioned that he hit a corner in nuetral. What happens is that without engine reves you lost traction and the bike drifted. Not a safe thing to do but in an emergency I believe that it is safer to crash down a gear than to suddenly hit the brakes. Sooner a busted gearbox than a busted body. Like most things in life we all have a slightly different way of doing things but if you have to brake on the lean and already into the bend (making a line correction) then you have hit the corner to fast.

Skyryder

[jrandom]

Not a safe thing to do but in an emergency I believe that it is safer to crash down a gear than to suddenly hit the brakes.

Depends. Dunno 'bout your Guzzi, but my FXR has enough engine braking to start the rear wheel hopping and skipping on just about any downshift if I don't match speed and revs properly. Just thinking about the idea of clunking down suddenly in the middle of a corner makes me go all puckery.

I suspect that most bikes allow much finer-grained speed-scrubbing with the brakes than with the engine.

[k14]

Yeah, same with my cbr and that is the reason I didn't jam it into 2nd when it went into neutral, didn't touch the brakes either.

Ill have to admit that I have had to throw on the brakes a few times going round a corner that I misjudged. It definately screws up the balance of the bike and makes you run a bit wide, have never touched the rear brake mid corner though, don't really want to.

[Motu]

I use a hell of a lot of road,it probably looks dangerous,but I don't do it in front of stock trucks eh.Comes from gravel road riding,keeping it smooth without loosing speed,I cut all right apexes to the gutter,straighten a bunch of curves by just going apex,apex,apex - I also do this in the wet,as I said,kepping it smooth without loosing speed.I also have ridden a few totaly guttless bikes,like my 425lb 500cc BSA with 13hp,my C50 and FA50 - loosing road speed is a sin punishable by being passed by a pushbike,never,ever back off,power on at all times and take every chance in the book - Two Smoker will back me up on this,going fast is total comitment you will never achieve on a powerful bike.

[FROSTY]

every corner is different every approach is a new one.
As i recall it though "the" way to corner is
A) brake in a straight line as you aproach the corner
b) move to the right hand side of the lane in a left hand corner or to the left on a right hander.
c) select an appropriate gear to ensure drive around the corner.
d) apply constant throttle or accellerate around the corner
e) as you straighten up wind the throttle on and accelerate to the next corner.
WEll thats how I think it goes anyways
Not that i'd know mind you

[Two Smoker]

Damn right ill back you up Motu, the only reason i keep up with 600-1000cc bikes is because i hardly EVER touch the brakes...... You have to keep the speed up at all times.....

[RiderInBlack]

Damn right ill back you up Motu, the only reason i keep up with 600-1000cc bikes is because i hardly EVER touch the brakes...... You have to keep the speed up at all times.....Is that how you get me on the Heavy Hamster at Puke :Pokey: I'm swinging in the brakes trying to dump some speed before that heavy bitch of mine sends me to the sandpit to play:sweatdrop , and you still got the throttle open:whistle: :laugh:

[Skyryder]

Depends. Dunno 'bout your Guzzi, but my FXR has enough engine braking to start the rear wheel hopping and skipping on just about any downshift if I don't match speed and revs properly. Just thinking about the idea of clunking down suddenly in the middle of a corner makes me go all puckery.

I suspect that most bikes allow much finer-grained speed-scrubbing with the brakes than with the engine.

Can understand that. To down shift without the clutch is an extreme measure (like evading a head on) to be sure but if you have come into a corner to fast and have no engine braking (due to pre braking, you are litteraly coasting) you have two options brake while the bike is on the lean and risk a dump or down shift real fast so as to use enging braking. It's a technique only to be used in an extreem emergency. I have never had to crash a down shift but years ago I rode with a guy who crashed the gear so as to avoid a head on. He reckoned it was that which saved his life.

Skyryder

[Bob]

Frosty and Motu use all the techniques I've had drummed into me over the years.

On brakes - personally I never touch them in a corner. My viewpoint? If you're not getting round, lean it further! Most of us - and I doff my cap to anyone here that does - don't push our bikes to their limits.

But if you are going to cover a brake, make it the rear.

Front brake is a no-no - lock up the front and you are on the floor - front tends to let go suddenly with no chance of saving it. Rear brake - well you never want to brake hard, but as Moko says, feather it and it'll help bleed a little speed. If the rear locks up, what tends to happen is the bike sits up - let off the brake now (in a controlled manner, don't just dump it!) and it'll hopefully settle back into the bend.

One thing I'd add about power - for years I went in and kept a constant throttle all the way round. Until I mentioned this to a mate who used to be an instructor. His advice? Constant doesn't set up for the exit. By gently opening the throttle and increasing the revs as you go through the bend, you are able to turn tighter and then when you reach the exit, you are already in a position to open up and accellerate out.

I'm glad to say I've never had to crash down the 'box without the clutch! I'll do clutchless up shifts, but down? Clutch in, rev, down gear, clutch out every time - thank you 3 times British Superbike Champion (and 500ccGP rider - best ever season placing 4th) Niall MacKenzie for that one. Niall wrote a series of articles on cornering, braking and so on. I learned more from them (about 6 of them) than anything anyone else had taught me (or tried to teach me).

The articles were in Two Wheels Only (TWO) magazine. Don't know if you guys get it out there - but if ever you see an issue where MacKenzie has done an article on riding tips, get it and read. This guy is a hero of mine, as you will have guessed (!), but his whole style was about being smooth, which is how I like to ride if I can.

[NordieBoy]

[QUOTE=SkyryderI think it was K14 who mentioned that he hit a corner in nuetral. What happens is that without engine reves you lost traction and the bike drifted.[/QUOTE]

In neutral you either lose engine braking or the accelleration you were expecting.

You wouldn't lose traction - The bike would be different is all.

Not a nice thing anyway.

;)

[moko]

the RS liked a little bit of rear brake to keep the suspension settled - especially on bumpy corners. not a lot, just a thought's worth.
(

That`s what I was trying to say Marty,your choice of words was a lot better.If you know your bike you can "feel" the brakes through the pedal and be aware of exactly what`s happening.Whenever I change my bike I always find a deserted car park and spend an hour or so on low-speed manouvers and low-speed lock-ups of both wheels to learn how it reacts,how much I can get away with e.t.c.,a lot better than having to learn fast on the road.Very important to find the limits of yourself,your brakes and your tyres before doing the hero bit on the bends.

[Bob]

[QUOTE=SkyryderI think it was K14 who mentioned that he hit a corner in nuetral. What happens is that without engine reves you lost traction and the bike drifted.

In neutral you either lose engine braking or the accelleration you were expecting.

You wouldn't lose traction - The bike would be different is all.

Not a nice thing anyway.

;)[/QUOTE]

Erm, I think physics covers this. If you go into neutral (or whip in the clutch), as you lose revs your centrifugal force disappears. Which is what is keeping you upright. So the bike feels like it is losing traction/falling over/going "a bit wierd" [delete as appropriate]. Same principle when cornering and braking. Drop of revs, bike drifts wide as there is no force holding it to the line it was travelling.

And to think my physics teacher told me I'd struggle in the exam (got a grade 2, so yah boo sucks to him!).

It is also why gradually increasing revs in a bend is a good thing - increased force means you can tighten the turn.

Class over - homework for tonight is discuss why dropping the revs momentarily when changing direction on a roundabout can get you through the flick/flack effect faster...

<_<

[DEATH_INC.]

I think everyone uses a different technique,I like the 'slow in/fast out' approach,preferably with a bit of wheelspin (hazing,not a full on powerslide)to help keep her turned in.
The reason the bike turns like shit in nuetral is the physics of cornering a m/c actually require a small amount of slippage from the tyres,especially the rear,and having a bit of acceleration/decelleration(acceleration works better)helps acheive this.

[Posh Tourer :P]

The reason why some bikes like a little rear brake to keep it settled, is to stop the wheel spinning fast when it jumps. I do it on the beemer in gravel, and it stops the rear jumping around, as when the rear lands after being airborne, it is never spinning that much faster than my road speed....

[Jackrat]

I crashed a Triumph Bonniville in the Hunua gorge a few years ago when I missed a gear going into a right hand corner hard.
It went something like this.The bike had a worn selector pawl spring that would allow it to go through which ever gear you were in trying to select into the next one down.It was the first time I had ridden this bike and I didn't know about it yet.I was siting behind a car approaching a left right S bend with a very short straight between corners.As we entered the left hander I could see nothing was coming the other way so I droped it into fourth and gunned it hard past the car useing the short straight to line it up for the right hander.As I hit the apex I droped it into third to blast around the corner but it went through third into second,That locked up the rear so I tryed kicking it back up to thrid but hit a false nutural.Now I'm into the corner an the bike has just stoode up.I'm pointed straight at the drop into the gorge and have no real control.I knew I was going over the edge so thought "stuff that" and stomped on the back brake laying it down.Both bike and I picked up a few dings but at lest we didn't go over the edge.
The owner of the bike got a REAL ear full when I took his poxy bike back to him and I showed him how to remove the spring an fix it.He'd been riding it like that for months.Flamin' weirdo!!

[SPman]

Damn right ill back you up Motu, the only reason i keep up with 600-1000cc bikes is because i hardly EVER touch the brakes...... You have to keep the speed up at all times..... Which is why its good to learn riding small bikes - all about keeping your flow going - easier to translate these skills up the size chain, than down.
I'm a late apexer - wide in and turn , with rear brake if required.....but then, I'm slow as, so..... ????

[Devil]

Erm, I think physics covers this. If you go into neutral (or whip in the clutch), as you lose revs your centrifugal force disappears.
....................
And to think my physics teacher told me I'd struggle in the exam (got a grade 2, so yah boo sucks to him!).

*cough* Uhm, I know what your physics teacher was talking about :)
Physics and "centrifugal" do not go in the same sentence together.
:Pokey:

Try Centripetal.
:bleh:

[Jackrat]

Ain't that centrifugal force takes over and the bike stands up.
If you lost centrifugal you would fall over. :bleh:

[Bob]

*cough* Uhm, I know what your physics teacher was talking about :)
Physics and "centrifugal" do not go in the same sentence together.
:Pokey:

Try Centripetal.
:bleh:

Well there you go! I knew it was A force! Out of curiosity, I just looked up centripetal force... and found this (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html)

[Devil]

Well there you go! I knew it was A force! Out of curiosity, I just looked up centripetal force... and found this (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html)
Thats pretty cool to know. Good to see it in practice (instead of talking about things traveling in circles accelerating into themselves heh.)

[Bob]

I've been wracking my brain over the issue of "What force" - so I had a word with a mate of mine, who knows about this sort of thing (having an engineering degree, I thought he'd know how it all worked).

He came up with the following:

"It's the balance between the two; one forces the bike outwards, away
from the centre of rotation, the other holds it in, making you go round
the corner.

Centripetal force is the one you apply to go round a corner. If you spin
a weight on a string around your head, the string is applying a
centripetal force to stop the weight flying off and smashing into the
wall, while the centrifugal force is keeping the string tight.

If you only had one force, you'd either lowside off the bike, or head
off into the bushes at a tangent."

So we are both right!

Just think, there is all this going on, but all we're trying to do is get round in one piece!

[Devil]

I've been wracking my brain over the issue of "What force" - so I had a word with a mate of mine, who knows about this sort of thing (having an engineering degree, I thought he'd know how it all worked).

He came up with the following:

"It's the balance between the two; one forces the bike outwards, away
from the centre of rotation, the other holds it in, making you go round
the corner.

Centripetal force is the one you apply to go round a corner. If you spin
a weight on a string around your head, the string is applying a
centripetal force to stop the weight flying off and smashing into the
wall, while the centrifugal force is keeping the string tight.

If you only had one force, you'd either lowside off the bike, or head
off into the bushes at a tangent."

So we are both right!

Just think, there is all this going on, but all we're trying to do is get round in one piece!

Im going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there. But as for the reason...well, ill think about it later!

/me goes back to slacking.

Brain fart: Momentum is trying to drive the bike in a straight line, the centripetal force is trying to accelerate the bike inwards using friction in the form of tyre grip (in the weight on a string example, the string would be the tyres, trying to accelerate the weight inwards). If friction is lost (eg. string breaks) then the momentum of the bike takes over and the bike heads off in a straight line perpendicular to the original motion (turning).

et voila, mon lapin est chomage.

[Dr Bob]

I think that this conversation is just going round in circles.

[Devil]

Centripetal acceleration....in conversation!
muaha!

WHEEEE LOOK AT IT GO!!!!

:bleh:

[Skyryder]

As I understand, it is gyroscopic, the two moving wheels, that keep the bike in a straight line. When the gyroscopic force is moved out of alighnment by turning the front wheel the bike has to be leaned so that the rear wheel can follow the front. I would think that it is traction (resisting centrafugal )and nothing else that keeps the bike from sliding from underneath when cornering. Loose traction..........whoops that was close.............or bugger.

Momentum is provided by both the engine power and inertia.

Skyryder

[DEATH_INC.]

Have a look at this:
http://www.tonyfoale.com
look under the Misc articles then the camber thrust article......