New SV650s with ABS

[SpankMe]

The 2007 SV650s/n now has an option of Anti Lock Braking for an extra $900US. So why not the SV1000?

Does this actually make any difference on a sport motorbike? I don't think I've seen a sport bike with ABS before. The only ones I have seen are on touring bikes from BMW.

[Cajun]

ABS on bikes in some europe countrys give them a far lower insurance rate i heard, hence reason the new bandit will also have abs (option)

[Indiana_Jones]

Do you reckon it will come more widespread in the bike scene, like in cars?

-Indy

[WRT]

Perhaps the reasoning is that the riders of the thou's are more likely to be experienced, and therefore better at braking. There are a lot of cases of people locking up wheels during emergency stopping, take Bobsmith's crash for example. I've done it a few times as well, as have most riders. The thing is, with an experienced rider, it happens a lot less, and it is also normally recoverable. With a newbie, its more likely to result in an off.

Just a thought anyway, more likely its due to some budget constraint etc! ;)

BTW - Indy - you still here?

[Indiana_Jones]

BTW - Indy - you still here?

Left. Changed my mind. Came back.

It's in the other thread I made before I left.

Back onto the ABS....

-Indy

[SwanTiger]

I like the sound of ABS, as an option it isn't overly expensive. The only problem I foresee is that newbies won't think to get it and will be the ones who crash. The older or more experienced riders will be the ones who will apreciate its value and want to pay the extra money.

[WRT]

Be interesting to see what sort of a difference the ABS makes to the bike. I'm no mechanic, but my basic understanding is that you have a sensor to detect how fast the wheel decelerates, combined with a pump arrangement and the electronics to drive it all. If the wheel decelerates too fast, lock up is assumed and the brakes are released then reapplied by the electronics and pump, preventing total lockup.

Question being, does this add much to the weight of the bike, or detract from the power? Presumably something has to drive the pump, and an SV650 is not exactly up there with a car or the big beemers in the HP stakes. Also, does it work on both wheels? And does it affect the "feel" of the brakes in any way?

I've driven a number of cars with ABS, never had to use it yet other than to "test it out". But I havent driven back to back the same model of vehicle with and without the ABS, so I'm curious if having the pump etc in between the lever (or pedal) and the brakes makes any sort of difference.

And one other thing, has anyone on a bike had to use the ABS mid-corner? Does the pulsing of the brakes affect the bikes stability while leant over?

[Mental Trousers]

It's because SV's aren't sprots bikes Spank

:nya:

[Ixion]

von Klunken has ABS.

Works on both wheels (the brakes aren't linked though, two separate ABS systems) . Normally you don't notice it's there, even under heavy braking

However there have been a couple of times when I've been braking really hard and it's kicked in. Once was on a wet road, the other time when I ran over a gravel patch. Just a really loud clunk noise, no noticeable effect through the lever, and I continued braking apparently as hard as ever.

You don't really notice any pulsing , it just backs off the pressure a bit.

I have successfully braked very hard in mid corner with it, I think (without having thought through the physics) that it will also protect you from highsides in such a situation. Certainly I feel confident applying heavy brake mid corner when I wouldn't do so on a non ABS bike (not that I do it at all as a regular thing, but the ability is occasionally valuable)

I think ABS is a good thing.

Granted , on a race track, a rider fully concentrating on braking may be able to "beat" the ABS stopping times. But in the real world of an emergency on the the public road, with paint, oil, gravel etc etc , I think the ABS will always win. And it's a big advantage not having to worry about locking up. Means extra attention can be diverted to other things , like figuring out where to go, looking for other hazards etc.

EDIT: There's no pump - the sensors control a valve that bleeds off a bit of the pressure - just like slightly slackening your grip on the lever. No pulsing either.

[Podo]

Be interesting to see what sort of a difference the ABS makes to the bike. I'm no mechanic, but my basic understanding is that you have a sensor to detect how fast the wheel decelerates, combined with a pump arrangement and the electronics to drive it all. If the wheel decelerates too fast, lock up is assumed and the brakes are released then reapplied by the electronics and pump, preventing total lockup.

Question being, does this add much to the weight of the bike, or detract from the power? Presumably something has to drive the pump, and an SV650 is not exactly up there with a car or the big beemers in the HP stakes. Also, does it work on both wheels? And does it affect the "feel" of the brakes in any way?

I've driven a number of cars with ABS, never had to use it yet other than to "test it out". But I havent driven back to back the same model of vehicle with and without the ABS, so I'm curious if having the pump etc in between the lever (or pedal) and the brakes makes any sort of difference.

And one other thing, has anyone on a bike had to use the ABS mid-corner? Does the pulsing of the brakes affect the bikes stability while leant over?

I have ABS on my FJR, it adds about 7 kgs to the weight of the bike, no noticable detraction from the power, it works on both wheels, I don't think you could manually pump faster than the ABS operates. I haven't tried mid corner (it is not such a flash idea to do this, ABS or not), anyway I have had the ABS activate several times, it pulls the bike up fast with no instability, I would not own a bike without ABS now.

[98tls]

have read on a couple of american based web sites that the 1000 wont be around for much longer...........have no idea if its true or not but no ABs offered on the 1000 might support that theory...

[WRT]

Interesting, the reports back on bikes with ABS. Ixion - if it just bleeds off pressure, do you know where it bleeds it too? Is there a return feed back into the master cylinder? And what about under heavy usage from a high speed, does this result in more lever travel? Presumably as soon as you release the brakes and grab another fistfull you would return to normal amounts of travel, but I'm just wondering if you would ever be likely to "run out" of lever travel.

[Ixion]

Dunno, really, I guess so. No, no extra lever travel . You have to be braking REAL hard , at wheel lock up point, for it to activate. Normally you don't notice it at all.

[SimJen]

Have recently been reading a few articles about a new sporty beemer that created a few scary moments as the abs released pressure, on the track with journalists missing turnin and going straight on.
Not my idea of motorcycling but if it helps peeps in some situations then it can't be too bad.
People rely too much on electronic shit these days, traction control in cars, abs, dynamic stability control, fancy auto trannies, radar cruise control. Noone knows how to drive anymore. Hopefully motorcycling doesn't get like that.
Problem is if you make it too easy to ride a bike, then all the wrong people will get involved and kill themselves putting my insurance up...... ;)

[SpankMe]

I don't think ABS is a good idea for learners. It should be on the 1000, not the 650. Getting used used to ABS, then trading up to a bigger bike that doesn't have it is only going to cause problems.

[Ixion]

That's true. Though a 650 is not really a learner bike in this country. But yes, I could see a LOT of problems if someone had only ridden a bike with ABS and jumped on a big bike that didn't have it.

Odd too, because is not the 650 used for racing where the 1000 is not ? (OK, I may have that all wrong, I get confused by the classes now, what happened to Senior 500 Junior 350 and Lightweight 250 )

[SimJen]

Its called dumming down. Seems every sector of the world is doing it.
Lots of the old ways are dying.
Hardly any boy racers can heel'n'toe these days, eventually newbie bike riders won't be able to shift gears, or blip while downshifting. They'll just hit a button.

[Ixion]

Yes, but that in one way or other has been happening since the birth of the motor vehicle. You speak of heel and toe, but how many drivers on the road nowdays have ever driven a car with a crash gearbox?

Personally I lament the passing of the traditional big single. Kick start only, manual advance and retard, cable drum brakes. See, it has already got to the point where riders do not even know how to start a bike, they just press a button. But how many of you would really want to give up your electronic ignitions and electric starters?

The old order changeth, giving place to new, Lest one good custom, should corrupt the world. ...

Be not the first to embrace the new, nor the last to forsake the old.

Some be too stiff in their old mumpsimus, others be too busy and curious in their sumpsimus

Blah blah.

Anyway, I reckon ABS is a good thing. Leccy starters I'm not so sure about

[SimJen]

Heel n toe not just for crash boxes, use it all the time on downshifts/braking in any car new or old. All decent race drivers use it, no matter what the gearbox as well as left foot braking to balance the car.
Double declutching, now thats different ;)

[Ixion]

Yes, I realise that . Do it m'self. I was taking your argument a bit further, because I remember older drivers berating the synchromesh gearbox when they were new-fangled. Cos now drivers didn't have to learn how to double declutch properly.

[dawnrazor]

i may have imagined this, but I'm sure I read that the SV1000 has been discontinued, fallen at the hand of EU emissions failure I think.

[SpankMe]

The 2007 SV1000 is out (http://www.suzukicycles.com/Products/SV1000SK7/Default.aspx). No change from last year. I think the reason the 650 got a model with ABS is because it's a bigger seller than the 1000.

[dawnrazor]

guess not then it must have been some other lumbering beast :)

[SpankMe]

some other lumbering beast :)


After riding the '06 Gixxer, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with that comment.

[dawnrazor]

how about the firestorm are they still being made maybe it was thems that got the axe, oh damn my feeble mind, the demencia is cutting in early today it would seem.

[MikeyG]

Honda has relased ABS on the CB500 in the UK. They claim it adds only 1.2kg to the total weight of the bike.

Most articles in mags that I've seen say ABS would be good for learners but can slow down good riders on the track.

Personally I would like to have it on my bike, it would have saved me from my off

[Filterer]

From http://www.physorg.com/news78593257.html

an intersting read about how increased saftey features dont actully reduce accidents etc because of the way the mind works



Researchers have determined that airbags and antilock braking systems do not reduce the likelihood of accidents or injuries because they may encourage more aggressive driving, thwarting the potential benefits of such safety features.

The behavior responsible for this seeming paradox is called the offset hypotheses, which predicts that consumers adapt to innovations meant to improve safety by becoming less vigilant about safety, said Fred Mannering, a professor of civil engineering at Purdue University.

"When antilock brakes were first introduced, insurance companies noticed that the accident rates for those cars increased," he said. "We decided to see whether the offset hypothesis could explain this phenomenon."

The researchers analyzed motor vehicle data from the state of Washington over a five-year period beginning in 1992.

"We used that time period because that's when airbags started getting introduced very rapidly, and we wanted to track the same drivers over that time frame to see whether the new safety features reduced their accident and injury rate," Mannering said. "Our findings suggest that the offset hypothesis is occurring and that it is sufficient to counter the modest technological benefits of airbags and antilock brakes."

A research paper detailing the study's findings was published earlier this year in the Journal of Risk and Uncertainty. The paper was authored by Clifford Winston, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution; Vikram Maheshri, a doctoral student at the University of California, Berkeley; and Mannering.

The researchers used a series of mathematical equations in "probit models" to calculate accident probabilities based on the motor vehicle data and actual driving records. Using the data, the model enabled researchers to calculate the probabilities of whether drivers in different age and demographic categories would be involved in an accident. The models showed that the safety systems did not affect the probability of having an accident or injury.

The study represents the first attempt to test the offset hypothesis using "disaggregate data," or following the same households over time instead of using more general "aggregate" data from the population at large.

"By using disaggregate data, we have added to the credibility that our findings actually reflect offsetting behavior," Mannering said. "And the 2005 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration fatality data released last month indicate that fatalities per mile driven in the United States have actually increased, which adds some aggregate validation of our findings."

The researchers tracked 1,307 drivers who had a total of 614 accidents, 16 of which resulted in injury, from 1992 through 1996. Of these drivers, 271 switched from a vehicle without an airbag to a vehicle with an airbag at some point during the same period, and 270 also made the switch to antilock brakes. Because many of the households tracked over the five-year period never purchased cars with the safety features, the study contained an inherent "control group," Mannering said.

"So our sample of drivers has a complete mix of people, with and without safety features, in each of the years we study," he said.

Claims of safety benefits for airbags and antilock brakes assume that motorists drive the same way regardless of whether their cars are equipped with the safety features.

"However, if you drive a car without these safety features and then you get behind the wheel of a newer car, you see the difference immediately," said Mannering, who owns a vintage MG sports car and a newer vehicle equipped with many of the latest safety technologies. "The contrast is dramatic. When I'm driving the MG, I definitely make a special effort not to tailgate or accelerate quickly when roads are slick because I don't have the antilock brakes, traction control and the other advanced safety features of the newer car."

The researchers used Washington state data because Mannering was a researcher at the University of Washington at the time.

"There are no indications that Washington state drivers are unrepresentative of U.S. drivers in general," he said.

Mannering said the offset hypothesis will continue to be an issue in the future with the introduction of even more advanced safety features, such as electronic stability packages designed to prevent rollover accidents.

[Lou Girardin]

oh damn my feeble mind, the demencia is cutting in early today it would seem.

Is that Italian dementia? Or Spanish?