15 too young to drive, says brain expert

[Swoop]

The Harold.

Friday September 29, 2006
By Claire Trevett

Teenage drivers could be getting their licence and climbing behind the wheel up to a decade before their brains are equal to the task.

Dr Robert Isler, a senior lecturer in psychology at Waikato University, said yesterday that the frontal lobes of 15-year-olds' brains were not fully developed, and as a result many struggled to recognise and react to hazards and took extra risks.

Dr Isler said New Zealand's driving age of 15 was out of step with other countries, where 17 or 18 was the norm.

"I think it's much too young. We don't give them the vote until they are 18 because we think they are not ready to have good judgment. But we allow them to drive solo at 15 and we think they will make good decisions, but often they don't."

That was because the frontal lobe - responsible for skills such as judgment, self-control and the ability to plan - did not fully develop until a person was 25.

It could take a 15-year-old up to 30 per cent longer than an experienced driver to respond to problems on the road. For the first six months of driving unsupervised on a restricted licence, a 15-year-old was 19 times more at risk of a mishap than a 25- year-old with driving experience.

"Young people learn car-control skills very quickly. Within 15 hours they can steer quite well. They get a higher sense of confidence than they should have and so they drive faster and it is not good for risk-taking behaviour."

Dr Isler said he believed 17 was a more suitable age to learn to drive, with learners supervised for at least a year.

Together with AA Driver Education Foundation, he is studying young drivers to see whether training helps with skills such as dealing with hazards.

Professor Michael Corballis, of Auckland University's psychology department, agreed brain development could have some impact on a 15-year-old's ability to drive safely.

"The frontal lobe does develop later relative to other parts of the brain, and is involved in things like judgment and social and executive skills - such as not being impetuous - and self-control.

"So 15-year-olds are capable of driving in terms of motor skills and vision, but whether they're capable of driving responsibly is the question."

The study comes as debate continues over New Zealand's driving age.

A Herald-DigiPoll survey in December showed respondents favoured raising the age from 15, with 52 per cent believing people should be 18 before driving and 27 per cent recommending 17.

About 60,000 young people learn to drive each year, and Dr Isler said the study would test whether intensive training would reduce the risk.

Are 15-year-olds mature enough to drive?
>> Email the Herald Newsdesk

[Str8 Jacket]

That was because the frontal lobe - responsible for skills such as judgment, self-control and the ability to plan - did not fully develop until a person was 25.


Jeepers I didnt get my licence until I was about 25 and man have I done some stupid stuff in the past year!

There seems to be some good facts in this report, definately worth thinking about. Bet there will be an uproar though!

[James Deuce]

Yay!

Got my arse handed to me on a plate when I pointed this out a couple of years ago.

Nice to see some supporting documentation.

[Finn]

It is just as dangerous to drive at 15 as it is to take advise from academics.

[McJim]

We can have it proven scientifically, we can vote to raise the age....but ultimately it's still not gonna fucken happen because driving is seen as a right not a privilege in this country.

Here's a plan:
15 ride a 50cc bike (Learner Licence)
16 Ride a 125cc bike (Learner Licence)
17 Ride a 250cc bike or 1000cc car (Learner Licence)
18 Ride any bike or any car (provided the appropriate tests are passed)

Coz cars kill innocent bystanders and passengers more than bikes do young drivers should not have access to driving them - keeping them on 2 wheels for the first couple of years of road use will make them sensible - and if they screw up then they're not going to take a raft of people to hell with them in a fireball.

S'not gonna happen though.

[SwanTiger]

Either an adjustment in the age or more intensive training would get my vote. Especially when at these years the mind is easily impressionable and with all the bad driving that is rife on our roads it will simply perpetuate the cycle of bad driving. However, there are a number of exceptions, so is it possible to accomodate these people?

[Filterer]

For the first six months of driving unsupervised on a restricted licence, a 15-year-old was 19 times more at risk of a mishap than a 25- year-old with driving experience.


Wow thats huge! Obviously the current system is not working if that is the case

[ManDownUnder]

15 is fine. Frontal lobes are not fully developed and risk taking is a natural consequence.

Pain is also a very good teacher...

[ManDownUnder]

Wow thats huge! Obviously the current system is not working if that is the case

How much of that is attribtable to the lack of experience rather than frontal lobe activity?

[McJim]

How much of that is attribtable to the lack of experience rather than frontal lobe activity?

I came to driving very late in life and haven't even had a close call in a car...

Not only that but I'm Glaswegian and therefore use my frontal lobe predominantly for breaking people's noses :rofl:

[The_Dover]

I came to driving very late in life and haven't even had a close call in a car...


That's cos you drive a bright red penis extension with

MCJIM

as the number plate!!:Pokey:

[Filterer]

How much of that is attribtable to the lack of experience rather than frontal lobe activity?

Agreed, I think with the right training a 15y.o shouldn't be 19x more likely to have an accident but it does appear that a 15y.o driver needs more training then a 20-25+ y.o learner for wahtever reason

[James Deuce]

Agreed, I think with the right training a 15y.o shouldn't be 19x more likely to have an accident but it does appear that a 15y.o driver needs more training then a 20-25+ y.o learner for wahtever reason

Training doesn't help. As much as you all want to deny it, everyone is different, brain maturation takes place at its own pace, BUT you can't avoid the fact that a 15 year old's brain does not in any way function like a 25 year old's brain. There are bits missing. They haven't developed yet.

Ever seen a teenager throw an utterly inexplicable temper tantrum? That's because their perception of emotions is confused by the lack of frontal lobe development. They get other people's emotions wrong, confusing anger with surprise, surprise with fear, acceptance with sarcasm. Emotions are governed by the same part of the brain as judgement. Experience does NOT help a 15 year old's judgement of a situation. Good judgement develops once that part of the brain kicks in and we learn to match up experience and judgement.

21 wasn't such an arbitrary age to come into your majority after all.

[Indiana_Jones]

I don't think 15 year old kids can handel the responsibility of being on the road. But yea, that's just my view.

-Indy

[Filterer]

Training doesn't help. As much as you all want to deny it, everyone is different, brain maturation takes place at its own pace, BUT you can't avoid the fact that a 15 year old's brain does not in any way function like a 25 year old's brain. There are bits missing. They haven't developed yet.

Yes to a certain extent I believe, I understand that they are missing certain parts of their brain at that age, I have done a few psych papers at uni within the last year. However their is ALWAYS more then one way to solve a problem and although inexperienced 15y.o are always going to be more dangerous then an inexperienced 25y.o the gap shouldn't be so large if they were given training and taught to realise that they have this problem. Often half the problem is to identify/understand your limitations and to work around them.

If there really is a gap of 19x between a 15yo and an experienced driver that can't be changed then they should not be on our roads IMHO

[James Deuce]

If there really is a gap of 19x between a 15yo and an experienced driver that can't be changed then they should not be on our roads IMHO

Dead right. After reading a couple of papers by Lord Winston when I was at University a couple of years ago, I became an advocate of beginning driver training at 24.

[Motu]

But they learn better at that age - and with a good teacher that can be taken advantage of.I also disagree with having to be trained by an ortharised blah,blah,blah.We taught both our daughters to drive - my wife doing the initial hand holding,once they could progress down the road in a straight line I took over....before sitting their test they had a lesson with an instructor to tidy up the rough edges.Both my daughters are far better drivers than their partners.

[RantyDave]

Pain is also a very good teacher...
I believe the problem is in other people's pain. A little Darwinism here and there never hurt the gene pool, did it?

Dave

[Big Dave]

I could wheelstand a motorcycle at age 9 and was comfortably driving a car at 10. Got my L's the day I was old enough and my licence the same and didn't have a stack till i was 40.

Crapola to use the esperanto Jimbo.

I'm with motu - they just need to be taught better.

[u4ea]

How much of that is attribtable to the lack of experience rather than frontal lobe activity?

my 15 year old is sitting his learners next week...and yes i am terrified.not so much for his judgement of speed and such but how will he react in an emergency situation....hell i suffer the same risks as him everytime i get in the car dont I ??as we live rurally it is the norm to be driving at 15 ,almost a necessty not to mention its bloody good timing as he can drive me round when i get outa hospital next week....not all teenagers are dipshits........(or do I just live in hope???)

[Jonathan]

It could take a 15-year-old up to 30 per cent longer than an experienced driver to respond to problems on the road. For the first six months of driving unsupervised on a restricted licence, a 15-year-old was 19 times more at risk of a mishap than a 25- year-old with driving experience.

Wouldn't it have been more relevant to compare a 15-year old with a 25-year old driver on their first six months of driving unsupervised on a restricted licence? Or if they recommend 17 or 18 being an appropriate age, shouldn't they have compared the 15 year-olds with 17 and 18 year-olds of the same driving experience?

[Drunken Monkey]

Of course, but why would you want to make a fair comparison when it would get in the way of a good story?

[ManDownUnder]

my 15 year old is sitting his learners next week...and yes i am terrified.not so much for his judgement of speed and such but how will he react in an emergency situation....hell i suffer the same risks as him everytime i get in the car dont I ??as we live rurally it is the norm to be driving at 15 ,almost a necessty not to mention its bloody good timing as he can drive me round when i get outa hospital next week....not all teenagers are dipshits........(or do I just live in hope???)

No - not all teens are dipshits, but most are prone to bursts of frivilous behaviour (as am I...)

Reacting in an emergency is a god place for concern, and the best training is to go through those emergencies... of course the safest place to go through them is when there are no cars around, or in a controlled manner.

On the track or (as you're rural) in a paddock in a car. Straight after haymaking maybe? Great way to learn to control skids. Have timed laps or something to make it a game - they'll be beating you in no time... a good sign... it shows their skill levels are going up.

35c buckets from the whare-house make good markers.

[Coyote]

It could take a 15-year-old up to 30 per cent longer than an experienced driver to respond to problems on the road. For the first six months of driving unsupervised on a restricted licence, a 15-year-old was 19 times more at risk of a mishap than a 25- year-old with driving experience.

Well no fucking kidding? Of course someone that is more aware of harzards due to being an experienced driver is going to react faster than someone who is learning. For example I now know to slow down a bit more for a certain corner than I would've done as a learner as I have now learnt that corner was dodgy. It's just some more media bullshit designed to get readers to take their side, they should at least comapare a 15 year old learner to a 25 year old learner to get their point across more accurately.

However, getting my bike licence at 15 and can possibly get my full (after doing the defensive) next month, I know first hand how stupid kids my age and myself can be. I saw a girl I liked on the footpath the other day and my instant reaction was to rev harder. And even then I'm one of the smarter people who 99.9% of the time sticks to the speed limit. I hear my cager friends bragging and laughing about doing 200 along the highway every morning on the way to school. My bike maxes out at 180, and I found that out on the track.

EDIT: In other words I do believe the age should go up. I've only really become a safer rider cause I've made the newbie mistakes, luckily all but 1 of them on the track and dirt. You are going to get a massive uprising from all the 14 year olds though. I'd also like to think I have better reactions than most, not that I'm going to test them anywhere other than on computer games.

[James Deuce]

I was driving graders, bulldozers, scrapers, front end loaders and trucks at 10.

I was crashing into fenceposts on a DT100 and jumping creeks at 12.

I still made piss poor decisions on the road in my teens.

As all the research says, teens learn better than adults, that's true, their motor skills are generally superior, that's true, but the thing that most often kills people is judgement, more correctly the lack of it.

Teenagers place very little value on life. They have ALWAYS been the willing participants in life threatening activities, like war, and driving in France or Italy because it won't happen to them, and there's no such thing as tomorrow anyway.

[McJim]

That's cos you drive a bright red penis extension with

MCJIM

as the number plate!!:Pokey:

Move with the Times benben MCJIM is on the arse of the bike now.

Anyone wanna buy a bright red penis extension?

[Macktheknife]

Here's a plan:
15 ride a 50cc bike (Learner Licence)
16 Ride a 125cc bike (Learner Licence)
17 Ride a 250cc bike or 1000cc car (Learner Licence)
18 Ride any bike or any car (provided the appropriate tests are passed)

Coz cars kill innocent bystanders and passengers more than bikes do young drivers should not have access to driving them - keeping them on 2 wheels for the first couple of years of road use will make them sensible - and if they screw up then they're not going to take a raft of people to hell with them in a fireball.

S'not gonna happen though.

I reckon that is a great plan Mcjim, I have been saying for years that making all licence holders ride a scooter or bike for the first 2 years of road use would make them all much better drivers and road users in general. Your perception of risk and vulnerability goes up and your awareness of other traffic goes way up, an experience I'm sure most riders would agree with and acknowlege, it is not easily forgotten.
I seriously doubt it would ever happen though, bugger.

[Pwalo]

Training doesn't help. As much as you all want to deny it, everyone is different, brain maturation takes place at its own pace, BUT you can't avoid the fact that a 15 year old's brain does not in any way function like a 25 year old's brain. There are bits missing. They haven't developed yet.



Yep, I think you're on to something there Jim2. I've always been a bit non plussed when people blithely state that training will always provide a solution.

I guess you end up with a very well trained immature driver/rider. Training just ignores the whole maturity of judgement issue.

While I wouldn't read a hell of a lot in the press release that started this thread statistically younger drivers have a lot of the accidents. In my opinion pretty all accidents are down to lack of judgement, whatever is stated as being the major contributing factors. (Drinking and driving, excess corner speed, etc, are all bad judgement calls). I guess expecting some poor teenager, who is coping with all the physical and mental changes associated with that wonderful time, to be able to make consistent, considered judgements is a bit too much.

I hope that makes some sense.

[sAsLEX]

It could take a 15-year-old up to 30 per cent longer than an experienced driver to respond to problems on the road. For the first six months of driving unsupervised on a restricted licence, a 15-year-old was 19 times more at risk of a mishap than a 25- year-old with driving experience.

Ok so a 30 year old inexperienced untrained driver is better?? There is some funny facts being used to justify his claim, of course someone who is just starting driving is going to be 30 % longer in reaction times. Same as an inexperienced 40 year old, who is going to be even worse!


If it aint broke dont fix it!

For the number of vehicles on the road our road toll aint too bad, and by increasing the age limit you are still going to have the same problem just up the age range as the young people with no self control are there at 18.

Just make licensing harder.

[The_Dover]

just take all women and non europeans off the road and ban all those gay jap boy racer cars.

you have the choice of a motorcycle, a beige austin allegro or a baby shit yellow daihatsu charade until you're 21.

sweet, problem solved.

[Filterer]

Just make licensing harder.

I think if in the first six months of your restricted you are 19x more likely to have an accident then someone more experienced, regardless of if you are young/old, black/white/yellow/green drive/ride etc then you shouldn't be on the road. Make licensing harder!

[Big Dave]

sweet, problem solved.

ya reckon? - look up 'scooter culture'.

[placidfemme]

Dr Robert Isler, a senior lecturer in psychology at Waikato University, said yesterday that the frontal lobes of 15-year-olds' brains were not fully developed, and as a result many struggled to recognise and react to hazards and took extra risks.

haha they needed an expert to tell them that?

tossers... I could have told them that years ago when I first got here :Pokey:

[The_Dover]

ya reckon? - look up 'scooter culture'.

Finn will deal to them in his SUV.

[Big Dave]

Finn will deal to them in his SUV.

Cool - I thought he was busy holding an edition of Vogue magazine in one hand, but OK.

[Skyryder]

It is just as dangerous to drive at 15 as it is to take advise from academics.

So it's you whose been moonlighting as a surgeon performing lobotomys on 15 year olds. You have been busy.

Skyryder

[Finn]

Finn will deal to them in his SUV.

You've heard of Roo Bars in Australia. I've got Scoo Bars on mine.

[sAsLEX]

I think if in the first six months of your restricted you are 19x more likely to have an accident then someone more experienced, regardless of if you are young/old, black/white/yellow/green drive/ride etc then you shouldn't be on the road. Make licensing harder!

Thing is learners are always going to be x times more dangerous than the data set they are comparing them to, no matter what age.

[Phils Motorcycles]

I used to work for Robert Isler when I was at the uni. He's been doing road safety studies etc the entire time I've known him and that's been 12+ years. Nice guy too and he didn't mind that we would take 2 hour breaks to play games on the driving simulator.

[SPman]

I don't think 15 year old kids can handel the responsibility of being on the road. But yea, that's just my view.

-Indy
Shit - I was OK. Was doing deliveries for the old man 3 weeks after I turned 15.
Perhaps it also has something to do with being given responsibility at an early age, and being treated as someone who will act responsibly when that trust is given, instead of the current vogue of treating kids like they are complete imbeciles, still on mummies breast, until they are about 15!

Scott Dixon racing a formula ford at 13 must have really pressed this guys buttons!

[smokeyging]

Debatable issue. I’ve seen some very sensible 15 year old drivers, and I’ve seen a lot of 30, 40, and 50 etc year old drivers that shouldn’t have a licence. I’m not saying all 15 year olds are sensible, some are naturals, others just haven’t got a clue, can’t read distance or speed, then of course there’s the cowboys…bullet-proof. Age is only a guideline, but I think not all that foolproof. The drivers that do worry me are the ones that know it all….

[SPman]

Debatable issue. I’ve seen some very sensible 15 year old drivers, and I’ve seen a lot of 30, 40, and 50 etc year old drivers that shouldn’t have a licence. I’m not saying all 15 year olds are sensible, some are naturals, others just haven’t got a clue, can’t read distance or speed, then of course there’s the cowboys…bullet-proof. Age is only a guideline, but I think not all that foolproof. The drivers that do worry me are the ones that know it all….
That's the trouble - trying to govern a world of greys in black and white!

[Speedy]

I personaly got my first bike at 15 (GSX250) and that was stupid - ive only been driving for a year . im currently 19 . i think the age should be the same but geting your licence should be much much harder with engine size restrictions etc 2day courses etc . learning 2 ride b4 driving should be compolsury u just learn so much more on a bike and i think every1 can agree. OH and ive never crash or have an acident in 4years. im lucky!

[Lou Girardin]

The problem is not the 15 year olds, it's the 17 year olds who have driven for a while and think they are Rossi, Schumacher and Loeb all rolled into one. Raising the driving age delays the onset of this stage to a point where they are more mature.
Labour won't do it because they're shit scared of Federated Farmers, who want the age left at 15.
Which is quite typical of cockies really. Bugger the dead kids in town, as long as their sprogs can drive a tractor on the road.

[terbang]

Bugger the dead kids in town, as long as their sprogs can drive a tractor on the road.

Not entirely true. They pay their taxes and rates and yet any sort of public transport system is confined to the cities. This forces them to use their own sort of transport. You used to be able to leave school at 15 so therefore it made sense for, a rural kid to be able to hold some sort of regular employment, they should be allowed to either drive or have public transport available like the town kids. We all know what NZ public transport system is like so they drive. The school leaving age is now 16.

[sAsLEX]

Raising the driving age delays the onset of this stage to a point where they are more mature.


Mate looking at the current crop of teenagers/early twenties alot of them much older than 15 aint in any sense of the word mature!

[Lou Girardin]

Not entirely true. They pay their taxes and rates and yet any sort of public transport system is confined to the cities. This forces them to use their own sort of transport. You used to be able to leave school at 15 so therefore it made sense for, a rural kid to be able to hold some sort of regular employment, they should be allowed to either drive or have public transport available like the town kids. We all know what NZ public transport system is like so they drive. The school leaving age is now 16.

Is it any better in any other counties rural areas? Aust for example?

[Meekey_Mouse]

What really pisses me off with this is they think teens can't drive cars at 15... yet they wanted to change the legal age for sex to 12!!! WHAT IS WITH THAT!!!

I think when it comes to driving it isn't the age that is a major factor but the brain. I know some 25 yr olds that I wouldn't like to see behind the wheel, but I know alot of mature, responsible 14/15 and 16 yr olds that would make better decisions then the 25 yr old. Just the same though I know alot of 15 yr olds that are complete morons who if I knew they were driving and I knew were they were driving too... I would try take a different route to them. So Why punish the responsible 15 yr olds for the idiots mistakes?