Military Question [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

Winston001

30th September 2006, 10:34

I notice we have a few military types here. I occasionally read SAS and military histories as well as the odd related novel. Also enjoy good war movies.

So I've always wondered how accurate the descriptions of shooting are in a firefight. There just seem to be too many bullets fired. Admittedly ammo supply at a defended position wouldn't usually be a problem.

But out on patrol - surely a small group of soldiers can't afford to fire automatic weapons to provide enfilading or suppression cover without running out?

What's the reality? I'd have thought accurate 3-4 bullet bursts on target would be the wise use of ammo. And even then only as necessary. Indiscriminate auto fire seems like a very good way to run out of ammo fast.

The only variability is whether a soldier is carrying heavy 7.62 rounds or lighter 5.56 of which he can carry more.

terbang

30th September 2006, 10:58

Did an exercise in Fiji (tropic reef 1979) back when we were on good terms with the Merkins. Towards the end the yanks gave us a demo on how to ambush an enemy patrol. I did notice that, compared to what we did, it was very 'fire power' orientated. Each section member had an automatic weapon (the M16) supported by GPMG, whereas us kiwis only carried a Semi automatic weapon (7.62 SLR) with a base compliment of 60 rounds (if I can remember right) and were supported by GPMG. Without going into too much detail I guess its a matter of, who it is and how big their budget is, that eventualy depicts how much ammo is used. Us Kiwis slept up trees in hammocks away from the leeches and food stealing mongoose, where the yanks slept on the ground and over the weeks became a sorry looking bunch. Maybe thats why they had to have so many bullets and fancy guns..

oldrider

30th September 2006, 11:32

Always amazes me how many shots get fired in military situations.
I was a pig and deer hunter for many years and never carried much ammunition, one up the spout four in the mag and another couple in my pockets.
If I had to use them all then it meant more meat than I could carry and it would be just wasted.
I did fire a few rounds on a target just to keep my eye in and to check the rifle sights but otherwise they were to expensive for me to fire off.
News items always show some destitute looking Arabs firing AK47's wildly into the air, how in the name of hell, oops, Allah, can they afford to do that!
Anyway if I couldn't take a target out in two shots I would pack up and go home in disgust.
Too old, too deaf and too blind to go hunting anymore any way killing things doesn't hold much appeal for me these days. Cheers John.

Street Gerbil

30th September 2006, 13:31

In Israel on patrols I used to carry 4 spare clips in belt pouches and two clips taped together on a firearm or just two clips at any other time. Personally I think it is more than enough for most situations - either you do your job and get home or you get hit (luckily never happened to me) before you have a chance to use up the ammuniton. But that's just me, your mileage may vary...

sAsLEX

30th September 2006, 13:41

smokeyging

30th September 2006, 16:29

Too old, too deaf and too blind to go hunting anymore any way killing things doesn't hold much appeal for me these days. Cheers John.

Yep, i know the feeling. i personally am happy to go out with a camera and a souped-up lense to get a magic photo of wildlife these days. my guns have plenty of dust on them, a little more won't matter.

Skyryder

30th September 2006, 17:27

Got rid of my firearms last year. Anything that makes more noise than me I'm not interested.

Skyryder

Highlander

30th September 2006, 17:32

Anything that makes more noise than me I'm not interested.

Skyryder

And you ride a guzzi?:(

Colapop

30th September 2006, 18:18

More bangs = more bums on seats. Real life aint like that. I have not been in a combat live fire situation.

Highlander

30th September 2006, 18:29

I have not been in a combat live fire situation.

Didn't you grow up in Wairoa? I thought live fire was standard practice on the main street.

Colapop

30th September 2006, 18:31

True. But I will not admit to firing any type of weapon in public....

Winston001

30th September 2006, 20:18

In Israel on patrols I used to carry 4 spare clips in belt pouches and two clips taped together on a firearm or just two clips at any other time.

What sort of weapon and how big were the clips? I understand that taping clips in reverse (ie. one is upside down until you need it) doesn't always work because it allows sand and dirt to enter the open magazine.

The British SAS developed spacers for the M16 which allowed 2 clips to be taped side by side, right way up.

Anyway, interesting. As I suspected, blasting off half a mag doesn't make military sense unless you are at a firebase. We do see Islamic militants joyfully emptying whole clips into the air and I suspect this is their fighting style in same areas.

Having said that, Hamas looked a lot more disciplined in southern Lebanon.

SARGE

30th September 2006, 20:55

i always worked in small team environments .. 4 to 6 man teams ..we had the standard RTFA (Ready-Team-Fire-Assist) layout .. i carried the M203 most of the time and i dont ever remember being on full auto.. i carried 8 30 round mags and a compliment of 40mm rounds for the thumper

my M249 gunner was always on rock n roll but he had an assistant gunner who carried extra ammo ...wasnt a problem..

and yes.. my experience with Arab fighters is that they use the 'spray & pray' tactics alot

Winston001

30th September 2006, 21:26

An M249 (SAW) fires 750 rounds a minute so you'd certainly need a friend to carry some extra ammo. Nice weapon, never read much about it before. http://images.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m249-short-saw.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m249.htm&h=393&w=653&sz=30&tbnid=1VbE97jqZ0fNDM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=138&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dm249&start=1&ei=WzceRYCnLYSksALSha36DA&sig2=gjwkVRhzUgdRW5K4D468WQ&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=1

2much

30th September 2006, 21:44

Always amazes me how many shots get fired in military situations.
I was a pig and deer hunter for many years and never carried much ammunition, one up the spout four in the mag and another couple in my pockets.

Ever wonder how it would affect your accuracy if the pigs and deer started firing back?

With the IW Styer we were trained to fire in bursts of 3-4 rounds, both for accuracy and conservation of ammo.

With the C9 LSW you pretty much hold the trigger until the belt runs out or nothing moves anymore.... same with the 50cal.

oldrider

30th September 2006, 23:34

Ever wonder how it would affect your accuracy if the pigs and deer started firing back?

I must admit that that is a "very" good point you make but I was not really thinking about that aspect, probably because I have not been in that situation, thank goodness.

There is nothing more to add to that from me is there! :Pokey: accepted!

I do have the utmost respect and gratitude for those that have been and are in action on our behalf. Cheers John.

sAsLEX

1st October 2006, 01:56

With the IW Styer we were trained to fire in bursts of 3-4 rounds, both for accuracy and conservation of ammo.

With the C9 LSW you pretty much hold the trigger until the belt runs out or nothing moves anymore.... same with the 50cal.

Why would you do that with the C9 your rounds would be well off target, short bursts is what I was taught!

And for accuracy and conservation of ammo firea round at a time.

Biff

1st October 2006, 06:30

Travel light.Travel fast.

Bang bang.
Bang bang.

Unless it's an MP5 - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

But it depends on what you're packing and what you're up against. Conserving ammo is key. Chances are if you get rummbled once, there's more gooks on the way.

Hollywood shmollywood.

And as for those so-called freakin SAS books - crock of shite most of them. Allegedly.

pritch

1st October 2006, 07:38

There just seem to be too many bullets fired.

Quite apart from "reconaissance by fire" which uses a lot of ammunition only vaguely directed. A large amount of outgoing fire is probably just designed to stop the other guys getting too creative. I seem to recall that there are statistics available as to how many thousands of rounds are fired to score one hit. It's too long ago to remember the detail but it would be many thousands.

Steam

1st October 2006, 08:39

Wow, who woulda known there were all these ex-soldiers on here? I hope all you old guys are going to come out of retirement to defend us when we finally get overrun by the 3rd world hordes.
I tried to join up but I have asthma and thick glasses, so no dice.

Street Gerbil

1st October 2006, 08:47

What sort of weapon and how big were the clips?
It was the Broom AKA long-barreled M16 w/ standard 30 round clips. I don't recall dirt being a problem. Sand, on the other hand, gets everywhere anyway but luckily it goes out just as well as it goes in.

I understand that taping clips in reverse (ie. one is upside down until you need it) doesn't always work because it allows sand and dirt to enter the open magazine.

Since IDF never got the springy thingy that keeps two clips together, people had to improvise. I designed a high-tech assembly using an eraser as a spacer and black electricians tape to hold the construction together. I've seen clips taped at 90 degrees one to another (a ridiculous arrangement since it gets caught on everything and upside downs held together by duct tape or rubber bands).

Having said that, Hamas looked a lot more disciplined in southern Lebanon.
<rant>
It's not that they were exceptionally disciplined, it was Israeli government that was not. Husb men just sprayed Katyushas along with bullets (business as usual, they just got bigger guns this time). They wouldn't have survived a properly organized attack (which never came). But then again, Olmert and Peretz were elected to fight their own people, not the professionally trained and properly armed bandits. They would have proven much more efficient in a war against civilians in Yehuda, Shomron, and Golan heights.
</rant>

2much

1st October 2006, 11:13

Why would you do that with the C9 your rounds would be well off target, short bursts is what I was taught!

And for accuracy and conservation of ammo firea round at a time.

True, but all I'm saying is if you're using full-auto then fire in short sharp bursts.

Guess we had different GI's

terbang

1st October 2006, 11:33

Yup that was the way I was taught to fire an automatic weapon as well. Was the M16 or HBFN (heavy barreled SLR) in those days though the M-16 was not my choice as I'm left handed. On basic training we got to do some training on the old Bren gun (.303). It had a sort of counterbalancing effect with the breech block mechanism that opposed the kick up that the others had. You could literally hold the trigger and empty the whole clip through the same hole.

SARGE

1st October 2006, 13:01

Yup that was the way I was taught to fire an automatic weapon as well. Was the M16 or HBFN (heavy barreled SLR) in those days though the M-16 was not my choice as I'm left handed.

i fire ambidextrous ...(i carried my M16 on the left and my Mossberg on the right) .. i am right hand dominant but i fire left handed and always have.. we could swap out a lefty carrier assembly, or roll with a brass deflector.

i went with the carrier assembly.. less to get snagged on shit

Lou Girardin

1st October 2006, 14:33

SARGE

1st October 2006, 14:42

It was the Merkins that coined the term "reconnaissance by fire" in Vietnam.
Basically just spray the area with rounds. It seems that they do the same in Iraq. That's why they have all these 'insurgent kills' of people sitting in their homes.

nope .. cuz the bastards are too thick to leave the battlefield..

(and the rags have an uncanny penchant to billet military hardware next to civilian population centers..)

Lou Girardin

1st October 2006, 15:17

nope .. cuz the bastards are too thick to leave the battlefield..

(and the rags have an uncanny penchant to billet military hardware next to civilian population centers..)

Yup, Fallujah was one big arsenal.

SARGE

1st October 2006, 15:21

Yup, Fallujah was one big arsenal.

yea .. that all started when the rags ripped the civilian contractors to bits, burnt their remains and hung them from the bridge ..

check the stats on how many weapons caches were found in Fallujah?.. how many torture chambers and blood soaked rooms where people were beheaded..

lucky the USMC was kept on a short leash on that one ..

Dafe

1st October 2006, 15:29

I've carried a C9 around the bush for two weeks. I was looking for Motu but never found him.
I did get into a mock firefight though. It is the Group gunner that tends to lay down all the suppressing/cover fire.

However, Everybody previously has mentioned letting rip on these group guns.
As I found out, if you hold the trigger down and let the rounds off non-stop........ Your barrel will melt and bend from the heat after approx 120-150 shots.

In any squad, you have a gun group. The Gunner has an ammo loader/barrel changer to assist him.

The group gun still needs to let rip in bursts to try and hold the heat from cooking the barrel.

The IW Steyr (NZ Defence Force rifle) assists this problem by the feature of an "adverse" selector switch on the rifle, however heat isn't normally the issue where a rifle only holds 30 rounds in a mag.

Trust me, No one just holds the trigger down and lets off over 120 continuous rounds without damaging something.

doc

1st October 2006, 15:33

It was the Merkins that coined the term "reconnaissance by fire" in Vietnam.
Basically just spray the area with rounds. It seems that they do the same in Iraq. That's why they have all these 'insurgent kills' of people sitting in their homes.

Next time John gets home from Iraq and calls into AMPS ask him about his impressions on the fire discipline of all the so called "Ex SF GODAMS" In his first contact two years ago his side of the vehicle took the hits he got one confirmed and one possible he only saw two of them . The turkey on back with the SAW fired 600 rds and never saw anything the guy beside him never fired because he couldn't GET THE WINDOW TO COME DOWN.... I ask ya he also reckons they all complain about not enough "trigger time" but none of them want to go down to Bagdad. And as soon as they loose someone many of them go home, he is always working with newbies. The South Africans are tops though, but face jail time if they go home, Aussies are heros, Kiwis are just investigated for tax evasion.

sAsLEX

1st October 2006, 15:36

Trust me, No one just holds the trigger down and lets off over 120 continuous rounds without damaging something.

Depends who you working for!
<img src=http://www.navy.gov.au/gallery/images/wpn951153-10.jpg>

Dafe

1st October 2006, 15:45

Depends who you working for!
<img src=http://www.navy.gov.au/gallery/images/wpn951153-10.jpg>

I'm talking rifles dude.

Aunty Helen showed me the light and I 717'd. Never looked back.
Although I will miss the SE Asia tours with the old toys!

Swoop

1st October 2006, 17:12

The South Africans are tops though, but face jail time if they go home, Aussies are heros, Kiwis are just investigated for tax evasion.
A mate working in Afganistan says different. They got rid of the Saffies and only have 2 Ozzies in the unit now. Kiwis predominantly. They used to have a few Merkins...

There was a firepower demonstration some years ago where a row of spaced apart Fig 11 targets were set up. Full noise was sprayed in their direction and the results recorded. From all the lead fired downrange, I believe there was either 2 or 1 round/s that actually hit the targets.

doc

1st October 2006, 17:39

A mate working in Afganistan says different. They got rid of the Saffies and only have 2 Ozzies in the unit now. Kiwis predominantly. They used to have a few Merkins...

There was a firepower demonstration some years ago where a row of spaced apart Fig 11 targets were set up. Full noise was sprayed in their direction and the results recorded. From all the lead fired downrange, I believe there was either 2 or 1 round/s that actually hit the targets.

We during training compared full auto to single aimed shots in a claymore ambush ambush at night, targets were quietly moved down a strained fence wire at the usual 2am sort of alert stage the patrols that used auto usually didn't have any 5.56 rounds in the fig 11's if they did it was prbably only the one. The real ambushes didn't need any rounds fired after the claymore's were initiated still have "Industrial Deafness" as they call it hiding behind your pack didn't give you much audio protection

Winston001

1st October 2006, 20:42

Thankyou everyone for your posts and it is interesting to see there are different points of view. I am however surprised that there isn't a common training system in all armies, regardless of nationality. Instead, from what various people have said, rates of fire seem to be a decision that is made at platoon level rather than a military doctrine.

I'm well aware of the exception to conserving ammo when close to a firebase or resupply. Not a problem, but otherwise the modern soldier needs to be quick and mobile which means not carrying too much ammo. And using what he has effectively.

Bend-it

2nd October 2006, 13:48

We never ever fired our weapons on full-auto, not even on short bursts... Semi-auto fire's much more accurate and quick enough. Even the GPMGs fired short bursts, seldom on full auto for very long at all.

Maybe we're just cheap arses and don't want to pay for ammo... :)

The_Dover

2nd October 2006, 14:07

However, Everybody previously has mentioned letting rip on these group guns.
As I found out, if you hold the trigger down and let the rounds off non-stop........ Your barrel will melt and bend from the heat after approx 120-150 shots.

In any squad, you have a gun group. The Gunner has an ammo loader/barrel changer to assist him.

The group gun still needs to let rip in bursts to try and hold the heat from cooking the barrel.

Trust me, No one just holds the trigger down and lets off over 120 continuous rounds without damaging something.

Thank fuck Dafe, I'm glad somebody said it cos the smell of BS was really getting up my nostrils.

Dai

2nd October 2006, 14:15

NZ army inn the 70's. Used SLR semi auto only. Carried 120 rounds 7.62x51mm . Bloody heavy.

Brit army in the 80's. MP5 120 rounds of 9mm. Still heavy but not as much.

Later when the SA80 came into use we werent allowed to fire on full auto as the rifle failed.

Dai.

Hoon

2nd October 2006, 16:34

So I've always wondered how accurate the descriptions of shooting are in a firefight. There just seem to be too many bullets fired. Admittedly ammo supply at a defended position wouldn't usually be a problem.

Firefights aren't just an every man for himself yippy affair. They follow a strict doctrine, a procedure which every soldier gets drilled into them as recruits. Much like a set-move in rugby, everyone must know the play, whats required of them and when it needs to be done. These doctrines are called Battle Drills and every Army has them.
Phase 4 of the NZ Battle drill is to "Win the firefight" (The yanks call it "Suppress the Enemy"). All this means is that you lay down shitloads of effective fire to suppress the enemy so he ducks down and can't shoot back at you. This takes as much ammo as needed - sometimes just a few well aimed shots, other times most your ammo. Once you achieve that then you can move on to the next phase - assault/attack.

However when you work in small 5 man teams and you are bumped, you want to make as much noise as you can to try fool the enemy in thinking there are more of you than there actually are. You might let rip on full auto as well to make them think you are a machine gun.

However, Everybody previously has mentioned letting rip on these group guns.
As I found out, if you hold the trigger down and let the rounds off non-stop........ Your barrel will melt and bend from the heat after approx 120-150 shots.

In any squad, you have a gun group. The Gunner has an ammo loader/barrel changer to assist him.

I've fired hundreds of rounds through my gun at once and had the barrel glowing red hot setting the grass around it on fire. The newer heavy barrels are heaps better and you don't have to change them as often.

In our 5-man dismounted recon patrols we'll carry 4 Steyr/M203's and 1 LSW C9 (maybe a 3/2 split in Open country). I'm usually a gunner or scout but as a gunner I don't have a No.2 and carry everything myself.
Earlier this year there was a spot going on an Ex to Aussie as a rifleman so I jumped in. I was on the C9, my No.2 was a useless ballbag so I carried all my ammo. Every single pouch I had was full of belt, no water bottles (had a camel back), wearing body armour and kevlar helmet in 42C heat! I had 1100 rds on me and used the lot - Thanks John Howard!

2much

2nd October 2006, 18:34

Depends who you working for!
<img src=http://www.navy.gov.au/gallery/images/wpn951153-10.jpg>

Now that's one toy that I really miss.

Sorry mate but the Phalanx CWIS doesn't fire continuously. First burst is 1/2sec, following bursts are approx 2sec duration. With a max rate of fire of 4500 rpm, that's a max of 150 rounds thru 6 barrels in any one burst.

Sounds fucken mean tho.

I'm talking rifles dude.

Aunty Helen showed me the light and I 717'd. Never looked back.
Although I will miss the SE Asia tours with the old toys!

Loved watching the Kiwi pilots during Flying Fish. Respect to those guys, fuck they could fly those things.

doc

2nd October 2006, 19:11

I've fired hundreds of rounds through my gun at once and had the barrel glowing red hot setting the grass around it on fire. The newer heavy barrels are heaps better and you don't have to change them as often.

In our 5-man dismounted recon patrols we'll carry 4 Steyr/M203's and 1 LSW C9 (maybe a 3/2 split in Open country). I'm usually a gunner or scout but as a gunner I don't have a No.2 and carry everything myself.
Earlier this year there was a spot going on an Ex to Aussie as a rifleman so I jumped in. I was on the C9, my No.2 was a useless ballbag so I carried all my ammo. Every single pouch I had was full of belt, no water bottles (had a camel back), wearing body armour and kevlar helmet in 42C heat! I had 1100 rds on me and used the lot - Thanks John Howard![/QUOTE]

Fukin Legend must have been good stuff that "grass"

doc

2nd October 2006, 19:14

I've fired hundreds of rounds through my gun at once and had the barrel glowing red hot setting the grass around it on fire. The newer heavy barrels are heaps better and you don't have to change them as often.

In our 5-man dismounted recon patrols we'll carry 4 Steyr/M203's and 1 LSW C9 (maybe a 3/2 split in Open country). I'm usually a gunner or scout but as a gunner I don't have a No.2 and carry everything myself.
Earlier this year there was a spot going on an Ex to Aussie as a rifleman so I jumped in. I was on the C9, my No.2 was a useless ballbag so I carried all my ammo. Every single pouch I had was full of belt, no water bottles (had a camel back), wearing body armour and kevlar helmet in 42C heat! I had 1100 rds on me and used the lot - Thanks John Howard![/QUOTE]

"Fukin Legend" must have been good stuff that "grass" did ya get any seeds bout time to get it started again frost finished eh bro