Impressed at the Amish

[RantyDave]

Y'know - no phones, funny hats, famous for raising barns? The Amish are less famous for living an extremely peaceful lifestyle. At least technically they practice forgiveness over revenge and understanding over hatred, so with the tying up and shooting of ten schoolgirls that was clearly going to get a bit of a workout.

Well, frankly, they've done an amazing job. For one all the other Amish schools didn't start crapping themselves, employing security guards, putting huge wire fences round the schools or anything like that. The kids all went to school the next day. They walk to school too, on their own. The community have shown no animosity towards the family of the gunman and have offered their support (they are apparently able to claim from a victims support fund) and the kids' funerals went past the gunman's front door without any shouting, spitting or setting of things on fire.

As practicing what you preach goes, it's pretty well a text book example. I would say that other religions (looking at you Catholics, Muslims) could perhaps learn a thing or two, but then I'd be starting a flamewar so I wont.

Dave

[MSTRS]

I would say that other religions (looking at you Catholics, Muslims) could perhaps learn a thing or two, but then I'd be starting a flamewar so I wont.

Dave

God (whoever s/he barracks for) no, don't do that.

[Pumba]

"That man deserves a DB":2thumbsup. Its all so simple but true

[SARGE]

there is a fairly substantial Amish and Menonite community in my home state.. they are the nicest, most generous, humble people i have ever met..

we had 12 of us on bikes one summer .. been riding all day and one of us broke down just outside one of the villages..it was getting dark and it was pretty much middle of nowhere.. they threw the busted bike up in a wagon and took us all back to the village .. lent us space in the barn and use of his tools . fed all 12 of us a big farm supper and put us up for the night ..next morning .. a big farm breakfast and food for our packs..

they didnt know us .. we were definite " outlanders" and not one of us looked respectable


we went back 2 months later and helped with the harvest just to say thanks ..

that was the first and last time in my life i have ever been impressed with a religion

[nudemetalz]

Nice story, Sarge. :)

[Paul in NZ]

Nice stories here folks and I have to agree. I've been very impressed by the Amish.

Says something for selflessness

[onearmedbandit]

Good story Sarge, got to have respect for them after that no doubt.

[Damon]

Of all the religions in the world their one appeals the most, it's so simple, no worries of the modern world, just get up at 5:30, milk the cows, plough the fields, put up a barn, it would be so simple, only problem is you couldn't have bike:weep:

[WRT]

only problem is you couldn't have bike:weep:

Just disguise it as a clydesdale . . .

[SARGE]

Good story Sarge, got to have respect for them after that no doubt.

yea ... i doubt very seriously that we would have been treated anywhere close to the hospitality we were shown if that happened at a mainstream "Christian" community..


their homes were open to every one of us .. we got to toss a ball around with the kids and no-one said boo to us ..

i'd be willing to bet that if i went back there today, i would be remembered and welcomed like one of the family

if i believed in god.. that would be the religion i could live with

[Pixie]

Amish Paradise
by Al Yankovic


Lyrics:

As I walk through the valley where I harvest my grain
I take a look at my wife and realize she's very plain
But that's just perfect for an Amish like me
You know, I shun fancy things like electricity
At 4:30 in the morning I'm milkin' cows
Jebediah feeds the chickens and Jacob plows... fool
And I've been milkin' and plowin' so long that
Even Ezekiel thinks that my mind is gone
I'm a man of the land, I'm into discipline
Got a Bible in my hand and a beard on my chin
But if I finish all of my chores and you finish thine
Then tonight we're gonna party like it's 1699

We been spending most our lives
Living in an Amish paradise
I've churned butter once or twice
Living in an Amish paradise
It's hard work and sacrifice
Living in an Amish paradise
We sell quilts at discount price
Living in an Amish paradise

A local boy kicked me in the butt last week
I just smiled at him and turned the other cheek
I really don't care, in fact I wish him well
'Cause I'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in hell
But I ain't never punched a tourist even if he deserved it
An Amish with a 'tude? You know that's unheard of
I never wear buttons but I got a cool hat
And my homies all I agree I look good in black... fool
If you come to visit, you'll be bored to tears
We haven't even paid the phone bill in 300 years
But we ain't really quaint, so please don't point and stare
We're just technologically impaired

There's no phone, no lights, no motorcar
Not a single luxury
Like Robinson Caruso
It's as primitave as can be

We been spending most our lives
Living in an Amish paradise
We're just plain and simple guys
Living in an Amish paradise
There's no time for sin and vice
Living in an Amish paradise
We don't fight, we all play nice
Living in an Amish paradise

Hitchin' up the buggy, churnin' lots of butter
Raised a barn on Monday, soon I'll raise another
Think you're really rightous? Think you're pure in heart?
Well, I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art
I'm the pious guy the little Amlettes wanna be like
On my knees day and night scorin' points for the afterlife
So don't be vain and don't be whiny
Or else, my brother, I might just have to get medieval on your heinie

We been spending most our lives
Living in an Amish paradise
We're all crazy Mennonites
Living in an Amish paradise
There's no cops or traffic lights
Living in an Amish paradise
But you'd probably think it bites
Living in an Amish paradise

Yuck

Sung to the tune of Livin' in a Gangsta's paradise

[placidfemme]

Have to agree with you all... They seem to have the idea right, and it works for them.

Like Gandi once said: Christianity is the best religion... its just a pity no-one follows it...

I don't know what the Amish stand on God is, and what how they worship, but there day to day lives say a lot about them :)

[Paul in NZ]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3820336a10,00.html

Impressive - They dress the bodies in house, self reliant etc. Everything an outlaw gang claims to be but is not.

I like these gentle folk. But I like mountain gorillas as well and have no desire to be one...

[SARGE]

I don't know what the Amish stand on God is, and what how they worship, but there day to day lives say a lot about them :)

they follow the Old Testament for the most part without all the judgment and hatred that is so rife in the mainstream.. family and community is a priority.. as is the " Golden Rule" .. greed and materialism is unknown.. whats mine is yours and they actually give a shit about their neighbors..

ive never met my neighbors ...

[Street Gerbil]

My former boss in the US was an Amish marine. Very impressive dude.

[placidfemme]

they follow the Old Testament for the most part without all the judgment and hatred that is so rife in the mainstream.. family and community is a priority.. as is the " Golden Rule" .. greed and materialism is unknown.. whats mine is yours and they actually give a shit about their neighbors..

ive never met my neighbors ...

Oh ok... Well that explains a lot.

Yeah I've only ever spoken to my neighbors once, and that was when Jono was helping me getting my bike going... and I went to ask them if I could borrow a jumper cables... and thats about it...

[ManDownUnder]

While I wouldn't want their lifestyle (minimal technology etc) I have to admire them - yes. Anyone that practices what they preach gets my respect.

Except those that preach hatred and death to all.

[SARGE]

My former boss in the US was an Amish marine. Very impressive dude.



you are shitting me right ??? :rofl:


the basic premise of the Amish way of life is 180 degrees off the basic premise of the US Marine Corps..


hell... they dont drink, cuss, fight or frequent whorehouses..

[Sniper]

you are shitting me right ??? :rofl:

I have been staring at that line for the past 10 minutes. It has to be a joke

[Street Gerbil]

you are shitting me right ??? :rofl:


It has to be a joke

I haven't told the half of it. Can you imagine the (former Amish) Marine (he got really upset when I called him "ex-marine" once) in IT business? :cool:
But seriously, I probably should have mentioned that the guy grew up in the Amish community in Ohio, then left home at some stage, joined the Corps, served in Vietnam and Japan, then got discharged and went to the IT business. Builds Shaker furniture at spare time. Amazing dude, I respect him enormously.

[SARGE]

I haven't told the half of it. Can you imagine the (former Amish) Marine (he got really upset when I called him "ex-marine" once) in IT business? :cool:


you are never an 'ex'-marine

[Lissa]

I loved that movie about the Amish with Harrison Ford in it.. can't remember the name of it atm. But they seem like lovely people, who just go about their lives not harming others and taking care of their own.

[Street Gerbil]

you are never an 'ex'-marine

Yep, that's what he said.

[Sniper]

I haven't told the half of it. Can you imagine the (former Amish) Marine (he got really upset when I called him "ex-marine" once) in IT business? :cool:
But seriously, I probably should have mentioned that the guy grew up in the Amish community in Ohio, then left home at some stage, joined the Corps, served in Vietnam and Japan, then got discharged and went to the IT business. Builds Shaker furniture at spare time. Amazing dude, I respect him enormously.

Sounds like one hell of a guy.

you are never an 'ex'-marine

Nicely said, thats the same for most of the good guys (I hope)

[Swoop]

I loved that movie about the Amish with Harrison Ford in it.. can't remember the name of it atm.
Witness.

10

[The Pastor]

I don't under stand why they choose to live like that specific time? At that time people wernt "old fashiond" they were living up to the mod cons of the time, why did they choose that time rather than 100 years before that...

[Sniper]

I don't under stand why they choose to live like that specific time? At that time people wernt "old fashiond" they were living up to the mod cons of the time, why did they choose that time rather than 100 years before that...

Its like age of empires. Its simple but comfortable. :banana:

[Zed]

they follow the Old Testament for the most part...I don't know where you got that info from but the Amish are a Christian sect who believe the Bible and practise the New Testament:

http://www.800padutch.com/amishfaith.shtml


I was completely shocked to hear the news of the shootings the other day, very very sad. I'm glad you're all impressed with the way they are handling this tragedy, as am I, but I have no doubt that that community will be hurting for some time to come even though they may be showing few signs outwardly.

[SARGE]

I don't know where you got that info from but the Amish are a Christian sect who believe the Bible and practise the New Testament:

http://www.800padutch.com/amishfaith.shtml


I was completely shocked to hear the news of the shootings the other day, very very sad. I'm glad you're all impressed with the way they are handling this tragedy, as am I, but I have no doubt that that community will be hurting for some time to come even though they may no be showing few signs outwardly.

i stand corrected Zed..

they dont buy into the judgment and hatred that the mainstream faiths do.. THAT statement i stand behind

[Ixion]

I don't under stand why they choose to live like that specific time? At that time people wernt "old fashiond" they were living up to the mod cons of the time, why did they choose that time rather than 100 years before that...


They don't choose to live any specific "time". They just choose not to clutter their lives up with stuff they don't actually need. And base them instead on what does matter.

Rejecting (or rather, ignoring) irrelevant stuff makes them appear to be oldfashioned, but they are not consciously anachronistic.

Very good people indeed. They meet the classic definition of a Christian - a lantern through which God's love shines out.

[Street Gerbil]

Rejecting (or rather, ignoring) irrelevant stuff makes them appear to be oldfashioned, but they are not consciously anachronistic.

Actually, I have to disagree on that one.
Several of their clans have a nasty habit of refusing to put "slow moving vehicle" reflectors on their buggies. Their folks keep getting killed but keep refusing to comply with the law out of pure pigheadness. A majority of Amish condemn that approach, by the way.

[Hitcher]

I don't under stand why they choose to live like that specific time? At that time people wernt "old fashiond" they were living up to the mod cons of the time, why did they choose that time rather than 100 years before that...

They don't choose to live "old fashioned" as we know it. They reject or rather choose not to use things from the outside world that put at risk the things they value as a community -- like community. Many innovations of the "modern" world, such as electricity and powered devices, put at risk the community-based teamwork and participatory processes that the Amish value. Think about it, individualism or the nuclear family would not be possible without the tools, systems and technologies that allow people to live apart from others. Even photographs are shunned by the Amish because they encourage personal and family vanity.

Amish will allow the use of modern devices, on a case-by-case basis or with constraints. Hence the stories of ageing farmers with no sons available to catch and harness plough horses being allowed to use a tractor; or powered cultivation equipment being towed by horses; or of telephone use, provided the phone is a payphone and some considerable distance from the user's residence.

Amish are Anabaptist Christians and are to be admired for "walking the walk" their faith requires. Among many things they show us that we could be more enriched by applying a little more humility to ourselves and that there is value in the contribution others may make to our lives. May their god bless them and keep them.

[onearmedbandit]

Wow, have we stumbled upon the one religious 'sect' that we can't blame for any wars, death, or corruption? Surely they have a few dirty secrets hidden away??? (p/t).

[RantyDave]

Ah, jeez. Apparently the eldest one asked to be shot first to buy time for the others.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2531138&page=1

These people are f'king hard cases, no two ways about it.

Dave

[sels1]

The Amish certainly deserve respect over the way they are able to "walk the walk' of their religion.
If there is one good thing to come out of this tragedy, is this shining example of love and forgivness has been broadcast around the world, pricking some peoples consciences and touching others hearts, and is an example to us all.

The old saying "The Lord moves in mysterious ways" comes to mind.

In a similar vein, if the Chinese hadnt driven the Dalai Lama out of Tibet in the '50s, (a terrible thing at the time) would Buddhisim be as well known/practised around the world as it is now?

[Wolf]

I have always had a lot of respect for the Amish and was deeply saddened to hear of the killings.

It is incomprehensible to me why anyone would want to murder a bunch of the most peaceful people on this planet, people who keep themselves to themselves, live their own lives according to their beliefs and don't expect anyone else to follow them. Why would anyone want to murder an adult male Amish, let alone female children from their community?

Their response to this terrible event strengthens my respect for them all the more.

I truly wish the killer - I'll not immortalise the bastard by even trying to remember his name - had not taken his own life. I would prefer that he had lived to rot in a cell for the rest of his life.

[Skyryder]

I loved that movie about the Amish with Harrison Ford in it.. can't remember the name of it atm. But they seem like lovely people, who just go about their lives not harming others and taking care of their own.

Witness. If that's not a repost.

Skyrder

[iwilde]

How can it be right to not feel hatred towards that child killer? One day it will all come to a head and the comunity will explode. Nothing wrong with "an eye for an eye", he should have beed violated and shot had he lived. Imagine one of those girls being your daughter? How forgiving would you be?

[Wolf]

Witness. If that's not a repost.

Skyrder
It is... bwahahahahahaha!

[SARGE]

Wow, have we stumbled upon the one religious 'sect' that we can't blame for any wars, death, or corruption? Surely they have a few dirty secrets hidden away??? (p/t).

Buddhism..and Wicca ( us Asatru' are some violent mofo's however..)

[Lissa]

How can it be right to not feel hatred towards that child killer? One day it will all come to a head and the comunity will explode. Nothing wrong with "an eye for an eye", he should have beed violated and shot had he lived. Imagine one of those girls being your daughter? How forgiving would you be?
He should have just killed himself, without taking innocents with him!

[Ixion]

How can it be right to not feel hatred towards that child killer? One day it will all come to a head and the comunity will explode. Nothing wrong with "an eye for an eye", he should have beed violated and shot had he lived. Imagine one of those girls being your daughter? How forgiving would you be?

Well, I would not be very forgiving. But that is because I am not a very good Christian. They apparently HAVE forgiven him . I wish I was that good a Christian. The community hasn't exploded in 300 and odd years, so I suppose it will cope with this too.

Nothing wrong with "an eye for an eye", just it's not the way they live. They live by a different standard.

[iwilde]

Well, I would not be very forgiving. But that is because I am not a very good Christian. They apparently HAVE forgiven him . I wish I was that good a Christian. The community hasn't exploded in 300 and odd years, so I suppose it will cope with this too.

Nothing wrong with "an eye for an eye", just it's not the way they live. They live by a different standard.

Maybe this will be the cause for an explosion? In 300yrs how many times have they had their young school girls tied up with the intention of sexual abuse and shot excution style? i bet not many times. Christian or not Christian, it's not human nature to forgive a piece of shit like this without it effecting your mentality in the long term.

[SARGE]

Maybe this will be the cause for an explosion? In 300yrs how many times have they had their young school girls tied up with the intention of sexual abuse and shot excution style? i bet not many times. Christian or not Christian, it's not human nature to forgive a piece of shit like this without it effecting your mentality in the long term.

the Amish and Mennonites will forgive stuff that would piss off the most loving flower child...the crime rate in an Amish village is almost zero.. they are not materialistic and i seriously doubt they know the meaning of the words "hate" or "revenge"

the killers wife will be welcomed as a sister into their community.. wait and see

[Ixion]

The Anabaptists (whence the Amish derive) have had their share, and more of persecution over the centuries. That is why they fled to America, though all to often hatred followed them there also.

No, it is not human nature to forgive such cruelty. I doubt that I could. But perhaps they have assistance from One more than human.

[iwilde]

I'm not a Christian, but I feel for their loss as a Father of one girl and another girl arriving in Feb. I'm afraid all I feel is anger at how someone can be this cruel, but I don't think that I'm a less of a person for feeling anger. Religion plays no part when inocent children are victims.

[WINJA]

Those Girls Had Courage Beyond Belief, I Got A Lot Of Respect For Them , Rip

[SARGE]

I'm not a Christian, but I feel for their loss as a Father of one girl and another girl arriving in Feb. I'm afraid all I feel is anger at how someone can be this cruel, but I don't think that I'm a less of a person for feeling anger. Religion plays no part when inocent children are victims.

trust me man .. i am the least religious person you will ever meet.. and there is no way in hell i would forgive..

i am also a father and i am furious that this happened to children.. this guy was obviously the highest level of coward..

Amish female children.. no chance in hell of anything going sideways there or anyone fighting back.. a real freakin hero..

[Smorg]

Its like age of empires. Its simple but comfortable. :banana:

do they ever run out of wood to chop? I hate that shit then you have to go building trade centres waste of resources those fucken trade centres.................

[elle-f]

yep i have been reading quite a bit about how they have handled the tragedy and they are impressive for sure. no doubt something like that will strengthen their resolve to stay out of the wider world because of the issues faced there. Its a tragedy for sure when anything like this happens.

i cant understand why that guy just didnt shoot himself - he is a wank

[Edbear]

trust me man .. i am the least religious person you will ever meet.. and there is no way in hell i would forgive..

i am also a father and i am furious that this happened to children.. this guy was obviously the highest level of coward..

Amish female children.. no chance in hell of anything going sideways there or anyone fighting back.. a real freakin hero..



You and I may be complete opposites in many ways, Sarge, but many do seem to have a naieve, (sp), view of Christian forgiveness. Christ said that if our brother/sister comes to us and begs forgiveness for something they have done wrong, we should forgive them. What this lowlife did was beyond humanity, beyond animal behaviour and there is nothing in the Bible that says we should simply forgive and forget this sort of act.

What he did was deserving of the death penalty. There may be some psychological reason for it as has been mentioned in the media, but people should still be held responsible for their actions - something sadly lacking these days.

[Ixion]

Forgiveness is not incompatible with punishment. Forgiveness is the relinquishing of personal hatred. Leaving the wrongdoer to the authorities to deal with. Or God.

It would be perfectly possible to forgive someone an ill they have done you but still want them punished for it. We do not have to "forgive and forget".

[Edbear]

I had to go check the dictionary, Ixion! I agree that being able to "let go" of resentment is healthier than harbouring it, and that we may forgive our children, for example a wrong, whilst at the same time punishing them for it. But the dictionary defines forgiveness as, "to cease to blame or hold resentment against someone", and " to free or pardon someone from penalty".

I guess, I mean that bit about "cease to blame" and to "free from penalty".

I'm not sure what I'd do in these circumstances myself, but I know how much my wife and children mean to me and if anyone were to invade my home and threaten them, I wouldn't stand back and watch, which I'm sure is true for everyone here.

[SARGE]

You and I may be complete opposites in many ways, Sarge, but many do seem to have a naieve, (sp), view of Christian forgiveness. Christ said that if our brother/sister comes to us and begs forgiveness for something they have done wrong, we should forgive them. What this lowlife did was beyond humanity, beyond animal behaviour and there is nothing in the Bible that says we should simply forgive and forget this sort of act.

What he did was deserving of the death penalty. There may be some psychological reason for it as has been mentioned in the media, but people should still be held responsible for their actions - something sadly lacking these days.

wow .. never been accused of being naive before .. the Amish affected in this have already stated publicly that they have forgiven this coward..

i wouldnt / couldnt.. but at the end of the day .. he is dead.. who would you hold ill will towards? .. his wife who had NO idea what she was living with ??. .. his children?..

i think the Amish religion is the most mature religion on the planet

[Edbear]

wow .. never been accused of being naive before .. the Amish affected in this have already stated publicly that they have forgiven this coward..

i wouldnt / couldnt.. but at the end of the day .. he is dead.. who would you hold ill will towards? .. his wife who had NO idea what she was living with ??. .. his children?..

i think the Amish religion is the most mature religion on the planet




Sorry,should have been more succinct. Not meaning you were naive, but some are.

I personally agree with your sentiments. Though not having personal experience of the Amish this incident motivates me to learn a bit more about them. I know of another religion with similar attitudes, though not pacifistic per se. Not sure if the Amish are, either, though. I'll do some study about them.

[Lou Girardin]

I haven't told the half of it. Can you imagine the (former Amish) Marine (he got really upset when I called him "ex-marine" once) in IT business? :cool:
But seriously, I probably should have mentioned that the guy grew up in the Amish community in Ohio, then left home at some stage, joined the Corps, served in Vietnam and Japan, then got discharged and went to the IT business. Builds Shaker furniture at spare time. Amazing dude, I respect him enormously.

Sounds like perfect Amish poster boy. I'd respect him more if he stayed true to his people.

[scumdog]

Witness. If that's not a repost.

Skyrder

And 'Kingpin', don't forget 'Kingpin'.:banana:

[Rogue Rider]

Yes I would concurr, they are very honourable people who live and show example of a good Godly example. If there was a testiment to Godly living and hospitality they certainly exert that with impressive determination. I am a beleiver in God, I struggle with being judgmental and material a bit, its hard to live to a standard when fleshly ways pull all the time. I would also struggle a bit with the ill feeling towards the person who did harm against my children, I can only imagine the turmoil of feeling toward someone who murdered, assualted or mollested my children. I guess that show my humanistic qualities, none of us a perfect. I guess thats great though as God doesn't require us to be perfect thankfully, and he also lets me ride a bike. I couldn't survive as Amish, I'd miss my bike too much I think LoL.
The closest group we have to the Amish here in NZ are the Exclusive Brethren, I know they cop alot of flack for keeping to themselves, and for the things they support, but on a whole they stick to very similar principles of the Old Testiment, but they have cars. They are also extremely wealthy and successful and support themselves. They do not depend on the state or external institutions for finacial aid.
God is good, hopefully I will live as good a life as I can for him.:hug:

[Lou Girardin]

The closest group we have to the Amish here in NZ are the Exclusive Brethren, I know they cop alot of flack for keeping to themselves, and for the things they support, but on a whole they stick to very similar principles of the Old Testiment, but they have cars. They are also extremely wealthy and successful and support themselves. They do not depend on the state or external institutions for finacial aid.
God is good, hopefully I will live as good a life as I can for him.:hug:

How can you relate the Amish to those bastard hypocrite Brethren.
They don't vote, but they want to influence elections.
They are pacifists, but support the Iraq invasion.
They run commercial businesses, but want exemptions from labour laws because they are a 'religeon'.
And they all look inbred.

[Wolf]

The Brethren are so far removed from the Amish, one would be excused for believing they worship different gods.

The Brethren are one of the most materialistic, money-centred groups on the planet.

[SARGE]

once again ... the Amish are showing (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061008/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting_241) how it should be done ...

[Finn]

The Brethren are one of the most materialistic, money-centred groups on the planet.

Fuck, don't tell the catholics!

[Pathos]

You have to admire the amish for their courage and understanding.

I do admire the amish but have to admit I think their way of life is a bit of a farce and unsustainable without modern society which is saddening. They try to maintain a self sustaining community but they are reliant on the modernized society especially for medicial assistance, law enforcement and military protection which they do not/cannot contribute back to society.

[Wolf]

they are reliant on the modernized society especially for medicial assistance, law enforcement and military protection which they do not/cannot contribute back to society.
What aBout all the stuff they sell - not just handcrafts, but hand operated equipment for farm and home? (Survivalists buy a lot of Amish equipment against the time when civilisation collapses and there's no electricity) The Amish produce goods and crops, the surplus of which they sell. They also pay taxes on what they make and they support non-Amish people by buying things they need, such as raw materials. Does that not make them eligible for the benefits that you talk of?

They are not totally in the dark ages and they are not totally secluded. They keep to a simple, uncluttered way of life rather than worshipping possessions and trappings the way most modern people do. If they have a need for something (such as a washing machine) they will have one - it just does not run on electricity. If they don't need it (television, radio, X-Box) they don't have it.

Or does one have to supply soldiers and policemen in order to enjoy the protection of the armed forces and the police? If that were the case, a large portion of the US population would have no right to either. (Our population, too, for that matter.)

For all they are pacifists, they possess courage equal to that of any soldier - the courage to visibly live the way they choose to, despite any ridicule they might be subjected to, despite it being easier to do things the modern way. They do not hide who they are, they do not change their behaviour to suit others - there's courage, steadfastness, integrity and faith there in abundance. The purposely choose to walk the hard road and live a life outside the "norm" - that's bravery and faith. And I don't know what it takes to forgive your child's killer (for I'm sure I'd be running a whetstone down my sword blade if someone killed one of my kids) but it's a quality that not even our resident Marine possesses.

[SARGE]

And I don't know what it takes to forgive your child's killer (for I'm sure I'd be running a whetstone down my sword blade if someone killed one of my kids) but it's a quality that not even our resident Marine possesses.

the poor bastard that harms anyone i give a shit about will die a show painful and horrible death.. im sure Wolf and a few others know what a "Blood Eagle" is ..



i admire the Amish right now .. they have shown pure love and forgiveness in this matter .. even to the point of going to the killer's funeral and consoling his widow ..

[Pathos]

What aBout all the stuff they sell....

I agree with all your points, they do contribute but it would be impossible for everyone to be amish. Murderous thugs will exist until humanity does not, the Amish people refuse to have a system to deal with that therefore they only exist as long as their are non amish people to make their existance possible.

I am studying computer science and in the forseeable future I do not see myself partaking in law enforcement or the defence of our country, but if it became necessary I would do so.

That is why I don't think the amish way of life is feasible and would not accept it myself. Saying that I still have respect for the values they hold and demonstrate in the their most challenging times.

[candor]

Our culture, doesn't value individual lives of those who are powerless (women, children, and other minority groups... disabled..) The cowboy mentality -who was raised on Bonanza? - has led down a slippery slope toward disaster. Unless we get a handle on how we treat aggression, on a national level and personal level, things will only get worse.

The crazy shooter only did what the US military are asked to do daily after all! Viewing mostly conflict, war and terrorism on TV news for years and endless spin-doctoring, false witnessing, name-calling, accusations, and corruption from our so-called "leaders" of both major political parties must have profound effects on Western peoples.

There is no ethical attitude out there--even from most so-called "religious" leaders, who tend to focus on judgment, condemnation, punishment, and getting rich instead of spreading the message of love, acceptance, and peace. Values went by the wayside when people - a generation, stopped having Sunday services (a long tradition) as reminders of what they are.

The effort to disarm law-abiding people is wrong and frightening imo! I was pro-going defenseles once but after some discussions with people holding different views and a look at the word today a rethink was in order. I was referred to the ATFE, FBI, and other sites, for actual statistics. It turns out that exponentially more women--and others--protect themselves with guns than are injured or killed as the result of their use in the US. Its clear, in the vast majority of cases, just having one is enough to deter the evil-doer (so you don't hear about them, since no one normally gets shot).

News providers and cops purposely don't provide these statistics to viewers because it doesn't serve their purposes! And if a few offenders start beuing target practise then the court cases will become more complex ie costlier! The crazy Amish kid killer was pretty calculated in choosing a school where he knew they wouldn't have an armed guard or telephones to call for help.

An elderly lady I know remembers when school principals were introduced in her area in the early 1930s. In part this was because boys were attacking female teachers. Men were brought in to keep the peace and discipline the students. She said teachers and principals even kept a shotgun handy in case desperate robbers stopped by! That's good advice for the vulnerable imo.

:Playnice: or expect return fire is the attitude we need more of. I suggest that in todays world every decent person, with a family to protect should get down the shooting range and hone up their skills.

[RantyDave]

Participants are gently reminded of Godwin's law. That is all, thank you.

Dave

[Pathos]

pro-gun stuff....

seriously man, there was not an iota of evidence given in your post with any substance.

show me statistics with the outcomes when someone finds someone in there home and they a) own a gun b) don't own a gun.

If the gun is situated so that it is readily available in such a situation its not going to be hard for a child to try have a play with it. If a criminal hears you opening a safe or unlocking something they will make sure they shoot you first.

Firearms in the hands of a trained professional are not really a problem but the Amish would never want that in their schools.

End of the day this was just one really screwed up guy and its impossible to be totally safe, theres nothing you can really do except try get on with life and accept that worst case scenarios can happen but usually don't.

[candor]

There are arguments for and against. My nextdoor neighbour died in a shooting accident at home at age 14. He'd got drunk and must have thought it wasn't loaded... So my Mum spent the next 3 odd years helping out nextdoor.

By the same token I do not believe we should be too relaxed as there's only a small chance of violent crime - not in NZ anyway. Quite high actually from my observations. 3 of my schoolfriends were raped by strangers or acquaintances between ages of 13 and 25! Probably looks different if you are female. And I do know both murderers and their victims. Which is why I think (particularly those at a disadvantage eg invalids or women) being armed to "equalise" is not a silly idea given the state of society today.

Evidence to support my opinion that responsible people perhaps should have right to carry for self defense (more important than hunting surely)....

Gary Kleck (born March 2, 1951) is a criminologist at Florida State University who is a leading expert on the links between guns, violence and gun control laws in the United States. Kleck did statistical analysis of crime in the United States and argues that while in 1993 there were about four hundred thousand crimes committed with guns, there were approximately 2.5 million crimes in which victims used guns for self-protection.

In 1993, Kleck won the Michael J. Hindelang Award from the American Society of Criminology for his book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America.

After Canada passed a gun control law in 1977, the murder rate failed to decline but armed robbery and burglary, crimes frequently deterred by gun ownership, increased. Violent crime accelerated in Taiwan and Jamaica after handguns were banned.

US Police refuse to attend call outs to licensed as armed houses. I think that is fair enough - if you have chosen to defend yourself don't call them. Domestics and bad storage are where problems lie. Nothing is without issues.

http://keepandbeararms.org/
At above link you will find heaps of self defense success stories, headlines like "son shoots man holding gun to his mothers head" and "New York woman in wheelchair shoots her attacker". A complicated issue to say the least.

[Wolf]

I agree with all your points, they do contribute but it would be impossible for everyone to be amish. Murderous thugs will exist until humanity does not, the Amish people refuse to have a system to deal with that therefore they only exist as long as their are non amish people to make their existance possible.
Isnt it great that humanity has enough diversity that the likes of the Amish can and do exist?

True, the Amish rely on non-Amish mechanisms to survive - that may well be one of the reasons why they are so undemanding of outsiders (convert the outsiders and who will buy your goods, run the banks etc? - too much to hope the govt will convert to Amish beliefs and stop gathering taxes.)

The Amish survive as they do, not only because there is a non-Amish community to interact with (selling surplus crops etc to "render unto Caesar"), but because there is a large Amish community to do the work, help out in times of hardship and sickness and band together at times of harvest and planting etc.

Personally, I could not live the Amish way either. I would want my motorbike and my computer and my extensive library of books that does not just include holy books and the convenience of turning a tap and getting hot water - the list goes on...

And I would not have the support of others to help me work the land during busy times or if I fall ill or have an accident. Then there's the fact that your steading or community has to produce enough food for your own needs and a high quality surplus that is saleable in the outside commercial world.

It's like "self sufficiency" - it is impossible in the here and now as the law requires you pay rates which means you need to earn money somehow and therefore you must pay income tax. Even if you had a few million in the bank and relied on the interest you earn to cover taxes, your "self sufficiency" relies on the banking system (and you'd probably find yourself "working" to ensure your money stays ahead of inflated CoL and devaluation).

Lacking a few million in negotiable currency you have to work hard to ensure your crops are of commercial quality or you will not be able to sell the surplus.

I've often thought of a quasi-"Amish" lifestyle - have the semi-self-sufficiency with the technological advantages.

A friend of mine almost has that - his meat and a lot of his fruit and veges come from his land, he still works at paid employment to pay for his rates and things he cannot produce (electricity, coffee, cigarettes, tech stuff, internet connection etc) but what he saves growing/producing a lot of his food plus the money he makes not cutting his back paddocks (the neighbour buys the hay off him less cutting/baling costs) means that his money goes a hell of a lot further than if he were completely immersed in the consumer-state.

Conversely, because he's not completely self-sufficient, he has the time to go and work at paid employment rather than being so tied into running the steading that he has no time for leisure, let alone work. Feeding his three cattle for the whole year involves occasionally chasing them from one paddock to another and shutting the gate behind them. Cutting and baling the hay involves letting in the cutting/baling team once a year and paying them. The neighbour comes and takes away the hay and gives him money. Someone else slaughters and butchers his cattle and packages the beast he keeps for himself (sometimes the flesh undergoes transformation and turns into an equal mass of mutton, lamb or pork) and the sale of the meat from the other carcases pays for the slaughtering and butchering and buys three new weaners with some change left over.

His fruit and veges are for personal use so he does not have to work his arse off to make a surplus of sufficient quality to sell (your own apples can be sun-struck to hell and back, the ones you sell must be perfect and that involves a lot of work during the growing).

Things that are too labour-intensive to produce, he buys. If he gets sick, his wife can take over his "farm duties" if it happens to be at a time when the cattle need moving. He can take holidays out of town knowing the cattle and crops will look after themselves while he's gone.

Another friend of mine tried full on "self sufficiency" and the amount of time he spent working his land (to produce not only enough food for himself and his partner but enough surplus to sell to pay rates etc and buy things that he just could not produce) pretty much guaranteed he had no leisure and he gave it up after a few years.

Done right, you could make a "more efficient" lifestyle where you balance paid employment and working the land to get better use of your wages and make more free time, but the Amish lifestyle is too labour-intensive - especially for a single family.

[NighthawkNZ]

you are never an 'ex'-marine

You may leave the service, but he service will never leave you...

Im only realising this now... after leaving the Royal NZ Navyin 91... :( :jerry:

[sels1]

Isnt it great that humanity has enough diversity that the likes of the Amish can and do exist?

Yes it is. And they are not the only ones remember- there are many similar groups around the world living on farms or Monastries or Ashrams in India - living a simple life based on their religious belief. There is a Hari Krishna farm north of Auck. and a Bhuddist retreat in the Nelson area, to mention a couple.


it's not human nature to forgive a piece of shit like this without it effecting your mentality in the long term.

If you cant learn to forgive, your issues will eat away at you until you are affected. The Amish know this, it is a cornerstone of most religions.


Nothing wrong with "an eye for an eye"
"An eye for an eye and the world goes blind" (Ghandi)

The 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' of the Bible needs to be taken in context with 'vengance is mine saith the Lord" and is not about humans having revenge on humans,(Judge not, lest ye be judged) but God judging human actions when they turn up at the Pearly Gates. This is seen in the Hindu and Bhuddist scriptures also, as the Law of Karma (the principle of cause and effect) whatever you do will at some point come back to you. Every bad deed will have to be paid for. (If not in this incarnation, then the next)

and there is nothing in the Bible that says we should simply forgive... .
How about the Lords Prayer - "forgive us our trespasses (sins) as we forgive them that trespass(sin) against us"

. I'm afraid all I feel is anger at how someone can be this cruel
Totally understandable but....
"anger, lust, and greed are the 3 gates to Hell" -The Bhagavad Gita(Hindu scriptures)

Participants are gently reminded of Godwin's law. That is all, thank you.
LOL - thanks Dave (I had to Google it)

[sels1]

Our culture, doesn't value individual lives of those who are powerless (women, children, and other minority groups... disabled..) The cowboy mentality -who was raised on Bonanza? - has led down a slippery slope toward disaster. Unless we get a handle on how we treat aggression, on a national level and personal level, things will only get worse.

The crazy shooter only did what the US military are asked to do daily after all! Viewing mostly conflict, war and terrorism on TV news for years and endless spin-doctoring, false witnessing, name-calling, accusations, and corruption from our so-called "leaders" of both major political parties must have profound effects on Western peoples.

There is no ethical attitude out there--even from most so-called "religious" leaders, who tend to focus on judgment, condemnation, punishment, and getting rich instead of spreading the message of love, acceptance, and peace. Values went by the wayside when people - a generation, stopped having Sunday services (a long tradition) as reminders of what they are.


Mate, I thought you were going somewhere good with this until I read the next bit. How about unplugging yourself from the NRA propaganda machine and seeing what can be learnt from the original subjects of this thread - the Amish

[Ixion]

...
A friend of mine almost has that - his meat and a lot of his fruit and veges come from his land, he still works at paid employment to pay for his rates and things he cannot produce (electricity, coffee, cigarettes, tech stuff, internet connection etc) but what he saves growing/producing a lot of his food plus the money he makes not cutting his back paddocks (the neighbour buys the hay off him less cutting/baling costs) means that his money goes a hell of a lot further than if he were completely immersed in the consumer-state.

...


When I was young this was so common as almost to be a norm. The degree varied, but the idea was regarded as almost axiomatic. If you didn't do it to some extent you were regarded as odd or lazy.

You left out the chooks. Chooks are very important, they are easy protein and eggs are readily sellable or exchangeable. And they need very little room and can pick up a living foraging in the field stubble . May need a bit of help in the winter.

[Wolf]

You left out the chooks. Chooks are very important, they are easy protein and eggs are readily sellable or exchangeable. And they need very little room and can pick up a living foraging in the field stubble . May need a bit of help in the winter.
Yep, forgot the chooks.

We always had chooks when we lived in farm cottages - dad was digging drains, septic tanks, oxidation ponds etc, not share milking (tho' did help out from time to time, also did a share of the work on sheep farms when we were in those areas) but we lived in whatever farm cottages were available to rent. Lent itself well to keeping chooks.

Used to get fresh milk from the cocky when we lived in the dairy producing areas. Now the Fonterra Thought Police try to stop the cockies taking home a billy-full of fresh milk from the vat. Arseholes.

Big business is intent on stripping the soul from this country. No wonder you get the Amish, Mennonites, Krishna Consciousness, Buddhists and others making their own lives...

[sels1]

Yep, forgot the chooks..

likewise. a big vege garden, a few fruit trees, and chooks. Wish I had room for them now.

[mstriumph]

you are shitting me right ??? :rofl:


the basic premise of the Amish way of life is 180 degrees off the basic premise of the US Marine Corps..


hell... they dont drink, cuss, fight or frequent whorehouses..


US MARINES do that????????????????? :no:

damnation - ANOTHER illusion shattered ......:weep:

[mstriumph]

...........
Big business is intent on stripping the soul from this country. No wonder you get the Amish, Mennonites, Krishna Consciousness, Buddhists and others making their own lives...


Here too
It actually frightens me to think that here, in West Australia, we get the majority of basics like butter and milk, fruit and veges trucked in from interstate

any government worth its salt would be moving heaven and earth to preserve and promote local essential industries and growers

what happens if there's a crisis? they obviously have their snouts sooooo firmly buried in the corporate trough that they are blind to the most fundemental of "what if" scenarios and think that short-term corporate gain is more important than the safeguarding of the ordinary people they are supposed to represent

us pair are luckier than most in that we have the space and ability to be able to work towards looking out for ourselves [on a very limited scale - but it's better than nothing]...

we have chooks
we have vege gardens
we have rainwater tanks
we have planted an orchard
.....we have goats and other ambularitory forms of protein in the 'thinking/planning' stage

[B]but i couldn't be Amish - not if it meant giving up my bike and having to love the french .......

[Wolf]

we have chooks
we have vege gardens
we have rainwater tanks
we have planted an orchard
.....we have goats and other ambularitory forms of protein in the 'thinking/planning' stage
Small scale is good - the less you have to work to sustain it, the better.

Another friend of mine in the semi-self-sufficient but still working scene has the vege garden, chooks, rain water, a few cattle that take very little to maintain and is in the midst of extending/renovating his house, he has two young children. If his land took up too much of his time he would not be able to get everything done and spend quality time with his family.

He also wet feeds some of his neighbour's stock on his land as part of a mutually beneficial arrangement.

You don't have to drop out of the rat race altogether - you can't, anyway, not so long as the local council charges you for services they don't provide (they're not providing water or sewerage treatment, but they still charge rates) and the tax department wants their cut before you start turning over any loot to the local council.

The more you try to drop out of the rat race (produce everything you can including generate your electricity using the methane from your toilet) the more time and effort it takes and you quit the rat-race job that actually pays the rates and the registration fees for the vehicle you need in case of emergencies to "opt out" and to supply the time that your new lifestyle demands.

Then your work load goes up because those crops you were living on now need to be more bountiful and aesthetically pleasing of a certain size in order to sell them.

Forget getting enough money from the hay in your back paddock to cover everything because you need the hay to sustain your own increased stock over winter and before you know it you're working harder than the local commercial farmers because they're only running dairy or cattle while you have dairy, cattle, orchard, vegetables, hens, bees... and you're run off your feet producing everything to the same commercial standard as the dairy farmer, the cattle farmer, the orchardist, the poultry farmer the apiarist etc so the local council won't turf you off the land you bought and paid for...

And then you can't take a holiday because the surplus you've sold would not cover the wages of the people you'd need to hire to look after everything while you're gone.

If you were earning enough to pay skilled temp workers on top of everything else, your steading would effectively be a viable commercial enterprise - a.k.a back in the rat-race, albeit the rural one.

The ideal balance is an energy/money efficiency whereby your hard earned lucre is put to better use because you already have a beast in the deep freeze and a goodly number of veges in the garden and you have electricity saving features in your house (night store, solar water heating, wetback on the fire for winter time, etc) to cut back on living costs and few enough animals/gardens to make tending to them minimal.

Then you work on the community - that farmer who buys the hay you don't need (your three cattle wet feed, his 450 dairy cows need hay over winter) could supply milk rather than cash - providing Fonterra's jack-booted cronies don't find out; the apiarist down the road might want something you have as well - fresh veges or fruit (and not be as finicky as the exporters) - in exchange for honey on the comb; the local home-kill guy's already swapping your beef for mutton and pork on a kilo for kilo basis and the local piggery might well throw some pork your way in exchange for any surplus/rotten crops that are not saleable (I know the pigs won't be as finicky as the exporters). You might not find people who'll turn up at your house and raise a barn or tend your crops while you're ill, but you might just find those who produce what you want so you don't have to...


but i couldn't be Amish - not if it meant giving up my bike and having to love the french .......
I didn't think even the Amish could love the French...