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FROSTY
10th October 2006, 20:08
Guys n gals I've been asked about bike insurance cover whilst on the Taupo Track
Specificly during a KB track day.
Once again please let me cover this off once and for all
Insurance cover /exclusion is the responsibility of the individual rider to organise.
However as I have made VERY clear in the past
The Kiwibiker trackday in no way is or ever will be a RACE meeting, pacemaking, a reliability trial, speed testor a timed EVENT.
What that means in plain english is I (AS EVENT ORGANISER) cannot/will not run a RACE meeting or in any way run timing equipment of any sort.
I cannot however control the actions of any individual who chooses to use HAND HELD timing equipment such as a stopwatch.
I will be forced to ask that said timing desists -SHOULD I SEE THE TIMING TAKING PLACE

As with EVERY track day I have ever run there will be specific 1 on 1 rider training taking place during the day.

From day one I have made it clear that my trackdays are for the specific purpose of improving your individual riding skills in a safe,controlled enviroment. As such you could say they have always been rider training days.

Anyone unsure how they individually stand in regards to this needs to contact their insurance company.

On a personal note I would like to meet with the undewrighters of any insurance company that elects to decline cover --

Cibby
20th October 2006, 16:22
Thanks for this Frosty.

El Dopa
20th October 2006, 19:42
I'm still trying to work out if I can go or not. However, this is what my insurance company (Swann via Kiwibike) has asked for from me. Might be helpful for someone else.




Can you give some additional details, the insurer will look at covering rider training days on the track.
They need to know who will be providing the instruction ,the dates and the who are the organisers.
I know this is a hassle but is is important for the insurer to have the info, this way they can approve the day and have it noted on your policy, this way in the event of a claim there is no hassle.
Track days as a rule, without a formal training structure are not covered and this area is a difficult one for insurers as there is no set policy written in the insurance policy
We have adopted the approach of applying to the insurers on a case by case situation



I assume that it would be ok to give Frosty's name as the organiser.

The name(s) of the instructor(s) is a bit more difficult though. Are there riders who will be doing this semi-formally on the day? Is there a pool? Are they going to be allocated to people?

FROSTY
21st October 2006, 17:45
ED--Id apreciate hearing from le insurance bloke if possible

El Dopa
21st October 2006, 18:04
ED--Id apreciate hearing from le insurance bloke if possible

I'll pass on the request. He's a broker and can't make the decision for the company though.

El Dopa
24th October 2006, 18:52
ED--Id apreciate hearing from le insurance bloke if possible

E-mail sent. Let me know if you don't receive it.

Tim_F
25th October 2006, 12:52
Hi Frosty. Thanks indeed for your efforts. I have always assumed that I was uninsured on the track, but when I read out your comments to a representative of my insurer (AMI), they seemed comfortable with the organisation of your track day. I have faxed a copy of your comments to them and await final confirmation. However, I have one question: If an uninsured rider falls and accidentally takes out an insured rider, would it not be possible for the insured rider's insurance company to try to extract restitution from the uninsured rider? I know this would be a sucky thing for the insured rider to do. The insured rider should just admit sole responsibility to his/her insurance company, pay the excess and get on with life. But could it turn out differently? Thanks Tim.
PS. I humbly apologise if this possibility has been addressed elsewhere. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction.

Racey Rider
25th October 2006, 14:00
The question was addressed in this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=21754) from post 16.

Basically, those of us on race bikes are screwed if we cause damage too an insured bike at a track day.

SUBROGATION you know!

Tim_F
25th October 2006, 23:24
Thanks RR. Appreciate the direction. I did start reading that thread a while ago but must have drifted off or something. Complex business. I think I have a much better understanding now.

Fishy
26th October 2006, 07:23
I asked this question a while back with Star Insurance.........

Me......

A couple of people have let me know about a couple of track days coming up at Taupo with a couple of open days at Pukekohe before then, not race days just track days. My question is am I covered for insurance on a track day? I know it won't be on a race day but what about track days?

Star Insurance

Provided you are doing a proper driver safety course taken by instructors your fine, but if this is not the case there is no cover and of course no cover when racing.

Me.....

The track days that are coming up are just days where you can get out on the track and get some experience in 3 different groups novice, intermediate and experienced. I don't think that they are lead by an instructor of any sort just riden at your own pace.

Star Insurance...

In these circumstances there would be no cover

kiwifruit
26th October 2006, 07:38
Star Insurance...

In these circumstances there would be no cover

Wtf :shit:

Fishy
26th October 2006, 07:54
Wtf :shit:

I know :( thats what I said :(

Thats why I don't do track days.

kiwifruit
26th October 2006, 08:07
hmmmm
thats not what my insurance rep has told me (im insured with star too)
<_<

Fishy
26th October 2006, 08:26
hmmmm
thats not what my insurance rep has told me (im insured with star too)
<_<

I got that info direct from the GM at Star....
Philip Newall
General Manager - Star Insurance
Ph. 09 250 6000 \ 0800 96 8000
Fax. 09 250 6001
PO Box 97954, South Auckland Mail Centre

Cibby
26th October 2006, 08:30
to all you bunnies insured with Star,

I am awaiting final confirmation that Frosty Track Days will be covered, they are going to Lumleys to get final sign off on this so i can have something in writing to pass along to you all.

Basically, Pukekohe track days and open days are not covered. If you are under the formal instruction of a qualified instructer then yes... Frosty Trackdays should be ok

The intention of Insurance is to cover you if you are on a specific training course not to have a blat around Pukekohe..

To be updated when i hear back from them for this weekend.

Cibby :)

Fishy
26th October 2006, 08:31
I still have the emails from Star if you want me to forward them to you Alan? I pretty much just copied and pasted the emails and posted them in my previous post.

Bit sad eh, I was really wanting to get out and have a play on the track but, no insurance for me :crybaby:

Star Insurance are great to deal with and would highly recommend them to others, I just wish they offered track cover for casual track days.

Fishy
26th October 2006, 08:33
to all you bunnies insured with Star,

I am awaiting final confirmation that Frosty Track Days will be covered, they are going to Lumleys to get final sign off on this so i can have something in writing to pass along to you all.

Basically, Pukekohe track days and open days are not covered. If you are under the formal instruction of a qualified instructer then yes... Frosty Trackdays should be ok


Thanks Rach,

Is Frosty a qualified instructor?

R6_kid
26th October 2006, 09:05
the only 'qualified' instructors that i know of for bikes are the guys that test you for your licence. Then there is the riderskills guy who i would assume you could call 'qualified' as thats what he does for a job. But on that note, if you were on the track with a racer giving you tips (loosebruce, shaun harris etc) then would you say they are qualified?

They are the top few % of racers in NZ and therefore are 'far better' than you, does this qualify them to be called instructors or are they simply giving out tips?

On the side of liability re crashing, I would think that you would take responsibility (as hard as that may be) for any accident you are in if you are insured. That is if you get taken out then you say it was your fault so insurance only chases you. As said before the only rules at a track day are generally passing rules, and normally to line up a pass (you can pass on the inside into corners generally) you need to get close under brakes, then pin it around one side on the exit - this would be considered dangerous driving on the road (or following too close) but on the track it is common practice and considered a 'norm'.

McJim
26th October 2006, 09:10
I'm just gonna try not to crash - as a noob I will be in the slow group and I won't be pushing it - safer that way. I can't afford to wreck the bike as the only way I can get it back to Auckland is by riding it.

Drunken Monkey
26th October 2006, 09:23
The question was addressed in this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=21754) from post 16.

Basically, those of us on race bikes are screwed if we cause damage too an insured bike at a track day.

SUBROGATION you know!

No - please stop spreading misinformation. You have either not read the thread in it's entirety or you still fail to understand it. Please re-read and take special note of the comment made by Frosty in post #31

FOR EVERYONE'S RECORD:

"The indemnety form waives your right to sue other riders and the organiser/track owner and their representatives. "

Drunken Monkey
26th October 2006, 09:28
...

I am awaiting final confirmation that Frosty Track Days will be covered, they are going to Lumleys to get final sign off on this so i can have something in writing to pass along to you all.

...

The intention of Insurance is to cover you if you are on a specific training course not to have a blat around Pukekohe..

...

Cibby :)

Cibby, are the insurers you have contacted fully aware of the indemnity form that each rider must sign to participate in the track day? As mentioned above, each rider will be waiving their right to sue other riders and/or the organisers. As you know, if an insurance company is unable to recover its costs from the 3rd party, it is unlikely to pay out (standard insurance clause, but please read your specific agreement).

JT.
26th October 2006, 11:05
No - please stop spreading misinformation. You have either not read the thread in it's entirety or you still fail to understand it. Please re-read and take special note of the comment made by Frosty in post #31

FOR EVERYONE'S RECORD:

"The indemnety form waives your right to sue other riders and the organiser/track owner and their representatives. "

Sure it waives my rights, but how does this waive my insurance companies right to sue an uninsuired rider?

More importantly, if it does, they will not pay out as you signed something on their behalf. Your policy is not worth the paper it's written on if you do this.

Racey Rider
26th October 2006, 12:07
Heres the deal plain and simple.
If you want to go on the track then you sighn the indemnety form.
The indemnety form waives your right to sue other riders and the organiser/track owner and their representatives.
In a nutshell if ya bin then you claim on your own insurance.
You must follow the rules outlined by the trackday organiser.

OK DM, I re-read it. But still need to asked the question.

Can a Insurance Rep, define, whether signing a track day indemnity to waive your rights to sue other riders also means Their Insurance company won't be able to claim back damages from another party?

Cibby
26th October 2006, 12:37
Cibby, are the insurers you have contacted fully aware of the indemnity form that each rider must sign to participate in the track day? As mentioned above, each rider will be waiving their right to sue other riders and/or the organisers. As you know, if an insurance company is unable to recover its costs from the 3rd party, it is unlikely to pay out (standard insurance clause, but please read your specific agreement).


no.. they have no idea... good point for bring that up..

It says in the policy wording that

" It the company covers the insured for any loss or liability it shall be entitled to instigate, take over, or defend any legal proceedings in teh name of the insured including any claim, or counter claim and shall have full discretion to conduct or settle such proceedings"

This may mean that you cant sign frosty's form which means you cant ride.. I dont think you are allowed to sign away the insurers "Subrogation" rights..

I'll check... Please hold

*Insert bad hold music here* :zzzz:

Postie
26th October 2006, 12:44
Sure it waives my rights, but how does this waive my insurance companies right to sue an uninsuired rider?

More importantly, if it does, they will not pay out as you signed something on their behalf. Your policy is not worth the paper it's written on if you do this.

Exactly, if the insurance company knows you are going to sign a form to waiver the insurance companies position to recover cost from an at fault 3rd party, you will find your self with no cover what so ever. Insurance companies have recovery/collection departments specialised in doing just that. If your insurance company did pay you out, they would still chase the 3rd party for dollars. The only way the insurance companies would cover you, is if they agreed to that waiver. Good luck with that.
In saying that, you would have a case if you showed the ins company the waiver signed by you and the 3rd party, but chances are, they would then try to recover from you, they may not be sucessful but you will be stuck in a very time consuming legal bind.

Drunken Monkey
26th October 2006, 14:31
Sure it waives my rights, but how does this waive my insurance companies right to sue an uninsuired rider?.

Your insurance company sues other parties on your behalf, they are not acting as an independant agent. If you waive your right, you have effectively waived your insurance companies right as well.


More importantly, if it does, they will not pay out as you signed something on their behalf. Your policy is not worth the paper it's written on if you do this.

That's why you must read your policy and abide by its terms and conditions.

Drunken Monkey
26th October 2006, 14:34
Can a Insurance Rep, define, whether signing a track day indemnity to waive your rights to sue other riders also means Their Insurance company won't be able to claim back damages from another party?

Whilst I don't work in insurance anymore, I used to work as a loss adjuster/assessor. I am making my comments from an informed position, although ultimately you should read and understand your specific policy.

Cibby
26th October 2006, 15:02
Whilst I don't work in insurance anymore, I used to work as a loss adjuster/assessor. I am making my comments from an informed position, although ultimately you should read and understand your specific policy.

10 points to drunken monkey, it is true, policy wording are were you need to go and if that isnt enough, WRITTEN confirmation from your insurer.

Qkchk
26th October 2006, 16:52
I hope this gets sorted out smartly as I dont intend to jepordise my bike on a trackday if I have no cover. It's not my riding Im worried about, but someone else taking me out.

Karma
26th October 2006, 16:58
surely wouldn't logic dictate that if you cause the accident you should front up for it?

If it was found that I caused an accident, I'd be more than happy for the damage to be claimed from my insurance, but I'd expect to be able to claim if it was the other way around.

From what I saw on the last trackday, there wasn't anyone taking anyone else out, it isn't a race after all, and if you're close enough to take someone out then you shouldn't be out there.

Blackbuell
26th October 2006, 17:12
For everyone's information i have been told by STAR INSURANCE you are covered at track days if you have a INSTRUCTOR WITH A I6 RATING TO TRAIN,as i have spoken to Frosty he hasn't,so if anyone is insured by Star insurance YOU ARE NOT COVERED FOR TD4 IN TAUPO ON 5th NOV,so i think we should find a instructor,put in a few bucks each & we are covered????

Oscar
26th October 2006, 17:44
Interesting.
I just located a Star Policy document: http://www.starinsurance.co.nz/Policy%20Wording.pdf and there is no exclusion specifically dealing with track days. There is a reference to "speed tests" being excluded but I would argue that merely having a fang around Puke is not a speed test unless timing equipment or actual racing was involved. There is also a specific exclusion dealing with "off road riding"* which may be applied to track days at it's widest interpretation, I suppose. Still, a pretty weak exclusion, in my professional opinion.

However, it's easy for me to say this, as any argument would obviously occur when the underwriter had the upper hand (i.e. refusing to fix a mangled wreck).

It is interesting to note that what the GM of Star is saying is at odds with what at least two of minions are saying on this very site.

I guess the moral is: BUYER BEWARE

Oscar
26th October 2006, 17:47
For everyone's information i have been told by STAR INSURANCE you are covered at track days if you have a INSTRUCTOR WITH A I6 RATING TO TRAIN,as i have spoken to Frosty he hasn't,so if anyone is insured by Star insurance YOU ARE NOT COVERED FOR TD4 IN TAUPO ON 5th NOV,so i think we should find a instructor,put in a few bucks each & we are covered????

Whereas I have no doubt that some Knob at Star did say this, I would be interested to know how they justify it. Where is this stated on their Policy Document??????

You've paid your end of the contract, why should they get to make up/change policy conditions on the fly?

Edit: If you are riding at the track day and insured with Star - ring them. "I am riding at a non-competitive track day where the bikes are separated, am I covered?" If they give you the instructor answer, ask them to direct you to the part of your policy that states this. Ask them to read the exclusion that applies. I would be VERY interested to know the answer....

Cibby
27th October 2006, 09:19
Interesting.
I just located a Star Policy document:


Clever boy :zzzz:


There is also a specific exclusion dealing with "off road riding"* which may be applied to track days at it's widest interpretation, I suppose. Still, a pretty weak exclusion, in my professional opinion.

However, it's easy for me to say this, as any argument would obviously occur when the underwriter had the upper hand (i.e. refusing to fix a mangled wreck).

It is interesting to note that what the GM of Star is saying is at odds with what at least two of minions are saying on this very site.

I guess the moral is: BUYER BEWARE

HOWEVER in saying that, I've just spoken to Phil at Star (Top bloke by the way)

and he is post Stars official position later today. Good news as well by teh sounds of it...

BLING TO STAR ALL THE WAY>

They get my "PROFESSIONAL" big thumbs up.

Oscar
27th October 2006, 10:27
Clever boy :zzzz:



You can aruge "off-road as long as you want but it is fairly basic, if you are not on a NZ registered road, then you are off it, in which case you can not be covered. You can try in argue your professional opinion as long as you like but it is fairly black and white..



I don't have to argue it.
NZ case law states that, where a policy wording is ambiguous, the benefit of the doubt goes to the insured. Additionally, the court will take into account the intent of the insured when they took at the policy. You may also care to reconsider your statement about "NZ Registered Roads", because if true, this means your bike isn't covered in your driveway....

Postie
27th October 2006, 10:29
if you haven't seen this already, read it, its good news.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=37956

also big ups to Cibby for personally getting on to Star, to force an answer for all that are insured with them.

Ixion
27th October 2006, 12:43
I don't have to argue it.
NZ case law states that, where a policy wording is ambiguous, the benefit of the doubt goes to the insured. Additionally, the court will take into account the intent of the insured when they took at the policy. You may also care to reconsider your statement about "NZ Registered Roads", because if true, this means your bike isn't covered in your driveway....

No such thing as a "Registered Road'. Land Transport Act defines "road" as , inter alia, any place to which the public has access, whether by right or not. Also includes any beach, and lots of other non-tarsealed stuff.

EDIT. From the Act, Sec t 2


``Road'' includes—
(a)A street; and
(b)A motorway; and
(c)A beach; and
(d)A place to which the public have access, whether as of right or not; and
(e)All bridges, culverts, ferries, and fords forming part of a road or street or motorway, or a place referred to in paragraph (d):
(f)All sites at which vehicles may be weighed for the purposes of this Act or any other enactment:

Oscar
27th October 2006, 13:55
No such thing as a "Registered Road'. Land Transport Act defines "road" as , inter alia, any place to which the public has access, whether by right or not. Also includes any beach, and lots of other non-tarsealed stuff.

EDIT. From the Act, Sec t 2

Exactly what I was getting at.
The use of an expression like "off road" in an insurance policy is stupidly ambiguous.

FROSTY
27th October 2006, 18:23
well folks--starman has 100 persent covered it off for those insured with star insurance--If you aint with them and your insurance company gives ya shit--well --I know what I'd be doing

El Dopa
27th October 2006, 19:18
Frosty, have you talked to Dave Kiwibie/Swann at all? I passed on the details.

If Swann can't match what Star are offering, I know exactly what I'm going to be doing.

El Dopa
30th October 2006, 19:11
After bugging my broker for a week, I have it in writing from the underwriters at the insurance company that I am definitely insured for this track day as a one-off event.

If I want to do any other track days, I have to apply again.

scott2ride
7th November 2006, 12:28
Im a Broker and deal with most of the companies.

Chances are I can get you a better price and with better terms (such as a lower Excess or including Accessories etc).

Rest assured, not all policies are equal, and many people dont discover this until claim time, when it's too late.

If you need a quote or to discuss your cover, contact me on

Scott Wilson
Accredited Brokers (NZ) Ltd
DD 09-5284389
021740222
scott@force10.co.nz