A little bit of faith restored in NZ

[Finn]

About 10 month's ago I had to let go of a senior person at work. This guy was one of those textbook corporate wankers with some letters after his name that I thought I needed in the Company. Wrong. We endured 12 months of bullshit and the only outcome was a whole lotta money down the toilet and some upset clients.

So I did the old "Don't come Monday" following the employment guidelines for getting rid of dead beats. Unfortunately, he was a lefty and so too is the ERA.

The short of it was that I had to reinstate him on garden leave for 2 months. I then had the usual wrongful dismissal, loss of earnings, stress and the usual bullshit. After 10 months off numerous mediation and hearings and a $30,000 legal bill, we won on all accounts.

So not only does this shit head have to pay us back 2 months salary, he also has to pay us a large percentage of our legal costs.

I never thought we would win everything and am quite surprised at the outcome. The person that handled the case from the ERA was superb. Still, it angers me that I had to go through this process in the first place. Like most laws, they are made for a very small percentage of scumbags, but the rest of us pay the price.

So it’s back to business. The firings will continue until moral improves.

Off to buy a new bike with the money.

[Wasp]

damn... sucks to be him.....

[Finn]

damn... sucks to be him.....

He brought this on himself. I'm hoping he will learn a great deal out of this, but I doubt it.

[Harry33]

Yip getting rid of people isn't easy, if only it was like "The Aprentice".

[Blackbird]

Good on you Finn, it's something I've had to face once in our company with a lefty union delegate and the stress was unbelievably bad - took 2 years to finally put it all to bed with various appeals. You have my admiration for seeing it through.

[Freakshow]

well done Finn glad there is still away to get rid of the usless

[skelstar]

Good on ya!...which bike? :)

[kickingzebra]

?!? Holy crap?! The same ERA that fined one of my mates 5 k for firing someone who threatened to kill him and his family?! (after the usual police no show)

Congratulations! About to start the staff culling process... Not looking forward to it!

[dnos]

on ya mate, good to hear that it can work out the way it should.
And i think going to spend that money on a new bike is a fricken good idea.

[steved]

Current favourite technique is redundancy yeah? Gets a bit tricky to make it fly when they are in a pretty pivotal role though, for example, a sales manager.

[RantyDave]

This guy was one of those textbook corporate wankers with some letters after his name that I thought I needed in the Company. Wrong.
Sesame Street was bought to you today by the letters "M", "B" and "A".

So I did the old "Don't come Monday" following the employment guidelines for getting rid of dead beats.
Sadly this is just not the kind of thing you can do. You have to have a series of meetings stating how the useless wanker is not performing against his stated performance objectives. You must offer counselling. Training. Time and patience so the employee may finally decide to amend their ways. While this might be fine when you've promoted a shelf stacker to checkouts and poor performance is because they don't know how to operate the till, it doesn't really apply to senior management on north of $100k/year. Or, rather, it shouldn't.

Well done on winning it, BTW. Normally telling someone to get farked costs upwards of $30k.

Like most laws, they are made for a very small percentage of scumbags, but the rest of us pay the price.
Employment laws in New Zealand are extra damaging because they discourage employment in marginal cases. Product based startups that are skint as all hell for the first two years can be killed outright (and damn nearly instantly) by hiring the wrong first or second employee. Likewise the recently graduated, moving from a different field, or those from a group that are traditionally discriminated against find it extra hard to get "in" because it's actually illegal for employers to write a "give it a go" period into contracts. Bizarrely the legislation that would make it easier for employers to employ in a "give it a go" fashion was blocked by the Maori party. So, only pakeha computer geeks with two years in the industry it is then.

Dave

[RantyDave]

Current favourite technique is redundancy yeah? Gets a bit tricky to make it fly when they are in a pretty pivotal role though.
Quite. A few weeks back I was hoofed in a rather disgraceful fashion from a company I helped save. In order to make this happen in a halfway legal fashion the board decided that the entire software development side of the company was going to be outsourced from now on and the roles of technical director, and any software engineers we happen to employ were all redundant.

So now we have a software company that is unable to employ either a technical director or anyone who can write software. They're going to need another round of investment soon, too - should be good for a laugh.

Dave

[steved]

Quite. A few weeks back I was hoofed in a rather disgraceful fashion from a company I helped save. In order to make this happen in a halfway legal fashion the board decided that the entire software development side of the company was going to be outsourced from now on and the roles of technical director, and any software engineers we happen to employ were all redundant.

So now we have a software company that is unable to employ either a technical director or anyone who can write software. They're going to need another round of investment soon, too - should be good for a laugh.

DaveSeems like a strange decision. Where is the board planning on taking the company?

[Paul in NZ]

Seems like a strange decision. Where is the board planning on taking the company?

The cleaners is a popular destination place for boards to take companies these days ....

[Paul in NZ]

So it’s back to business. Off to buy a new bike with the money.

Thats not a brutal enough lesson for this idiot. Why not buy a new bike for some poor soul from Wellington as a demonstration of your contempt for him... Fortunately for you, I just happen to know a deserving case....

[Swoop]

The firings will continue until moral improves.

Morale......

[kickingzebra]

Morale......

I quite agree. In a left wang society, what use are morals anyway?!

[Hillbilly]

Hired a woman as a sales rep fro my Finance Brokerage company. She came highly recommended and was supposed to be qualified. Three weeks later she still refused to sign an employment contract and a Tax from. She was also useless, so I fired her.

Turns out she was nothing more than a trainee at a car dealership and she was on the dole. We were paying her $700/week clear. She tried to sue us and lost big time. I also reported her to the ATO, and turns out that they had sued her before for tax evasion. She got sued again for tax evasion.

At that time we could fire her because the laws here have a three month "probation period" where you can fire someone with jusr 24hrs notice. Those laws have since been changed by Mr Howard. Any company with less than 100 employees can't be sued for wrongful dismissal! Also, anyone in a casual position less than 6 months can be fired on the spot with no right to sue for unfair dismissal. he's also bought in Kiwi style employment contracts. The down side wor workers is there will obviously be a drop in wages, which is great for employers. Why should a storeman get paid $20/hr weekdays.

[RantyDave]

Seems like a strange decision. Where is the board planning on taking the company?
It has apparently become a software marketing company. While this is not, actually, a bad idea (aggregating several related products under one roof is basically sound) it was the sales/marketing side of the company that was underperforming.

Another theory is that since the same (VC) investors own another company with basically too many developers that "we" lost the war and the development work went over there. I'm pretty sure that this is actually the case and have discovered a new and excellent way of losing a war - be unaware that it's even taking place.

The final answer is that the board are taking the company the same place that Feltex's board took them. :buggerd:

Dave

[Mooch]

Good one Finn

No company should have to carry dead wood. 12 months is more than enough for to make the grade at your expense. Glad to see it ended in your favour.

[Ixion]

there will obviously be a drop in wages, which is great for employers. Why should a storeman get paid $20/hr weekdays.

Why shouldn't they ? Getting ideas above their station ?

[WRT]

Thats not a brutal enough lesson for this idiot.

In this context (in keeping with Swoop tacking 'E's on the end of words), perhaps Finn needs to teach a brutale lesson instead?

[acewheelie]

You can fire people quite easily with the ERA, its just you have to know how it works, and jump the necessary hoops just like any onther legislation.

We had an employmer based presentation on it by some legal beagle, and were a little more relieved about it after the fact.

Anyone needs to get rid of someone I'm available, cheap!

[WRT]

Anyone needs to get rid of someone I'm available, cheap!

Pays to be a bit more on the "down-low" when advertising your services for dirty deeds.

[mstriumph]

Hmmmmmmmm ...... and a further thought to cheer your day, Finn
- think of the REFERENCE you can give the miscreant if ever asked? :rofl:

[Wolf]

At that time we could fire her because the laws here have a three month "probation period" where you can fire someone with jusr 24hrs notice. Those laws have since been changed by Mr Howard.
Howard's a dick!

The old 3-month probation is something I lived with in my early days of seeking employment - as did most people. If you did OK at the job and got on with the other staff, you kept the job - no worries. If for some reason you failed in that, you were down the road and usually rightly so.

If the boss was a wanker, you could opt not to accept the full time job as well.

I was dismissed under the 3-month probation rules: processing film, failed to be able to process 100 per hour (couldn't get above 80/hour), was keeping up with the incoming films but they had this magical number you had to be able to do in case it got really busy. I failed to reach it, they let me go. Fair enough. The boss was worried I'd pack a wobbler and sabotage things like the last guy they let go (for a lot more heinous reasons than failing to reach 100 films/hour) but I assured him I'd work out my notice with no problems (rather than taking the offered pay in lieu of notice) so they could get someone new fully trained up.

Sure, it may have been abused by some bosses wanting to ditch someone for petty reasons but honestly, who the fuck wants to work for a boss who would ditch you based on feeble excuses? Better off being "ditched" and find a better job with a better employer.

Like the "anti discrimination" laws we have to stop employers discriminating based on age, race, sex, sexuality etc - WTF? If they don't want to hire a 50-year-old negro lesbian they'll just come up with some other excuse and the onus is upon the employee to prove that the motivation was discriminatory. Unless the employer is stupid enough to say "we don't want no ancient lesbo niggers around here", they haven't got a show.

And if the could prove discrimination, what then? Force the boss to hire them? Who wants to work for an employer who thinks you're a fossilized black dyke? Really.

Employment law was much more honest back in the day - you knew you had to perform (at least for three months and then you could slack around all you liked) or you didn't get the job and if you encountered someone who was --ist against whatever you were you had a grumble to yourself and then realised you wouldn't want to work for the small-minded wanker anyway.

I'm pretty sure I didn't get a job because I wasn't Indian enough for the potential employer but he was smart enough to lie and I have no way of proving anything - would I want to work for him if I could prove unfair treatment? Nope.

[mstriumph]

good point, Wolf .......

there are far more people i WOULDN'T want to work for than i would .......

[dnos]

finn,

next time you need to fire somebody go onto their computer while they are at lunch or in the loo or something and look at some kiddy porn. I'm sure you shouldn't have a problem firing the "offender" when that is discovered.

[The_Dover]

finn,

next time you need to fire somebody go onto their computer while they are at lunch or in the loo or something and look at some kiddy porn. I'm sure you shouldn't have a problem firing the "offender" when that is discovered.

and Finn even knows some good URL's..........

[SPman]

I quite agree. In a left wang society, what use are morals anyway?!
about the same as a right wang?????

[Motu]

One of my brothers in law had a business on a busy central city street,he had a pretty high turnover of staff - door to door and tele marketing mainly.He had an almost permanent job vacancy sign out.So he'd get low lifes with facial tats....22 stone hair in curlers with pink fluffy slipper types come in.Of course they are not suitable for any job at all....and as soon as he said,ah,no - they'd be yelling at ther top of their voice about discrimination just because they don't use underarm deoderant.So he'd slip them a $50 and send them out the door.That's all they wanted.

Last couple I've got rid of I've made redunant - ''there's not enough work for you...as of from today.You can work your redundancy out''.That way it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg.Employees can send a small busness under real easy.

[Beemer]

About time we hear of a good outcome like this - I get fed up with hearing of these ones where someone is a lazy and useless tosser and yet because their dismissal was not handled 100% by the book, the moron gets reinstated and the company owners are left with huge legal bills. What is wrong with firing someone for not doing their job or for causing trouble?

First visit once you get the bike should be to the tosser's home - rev it a few times, stroke the tank and then wave!

[The_Dover]

where someone is a lazy and useless tosser

no need to get personal........

[sAsLEX]

Like the guy down Tauranga way who fired a cretin who

Stole from the business
Tagged swatikas on a jewish families home affected by the haulocaust

And he still got done for wrongful dissmissal

[acewheelie]

Pays to be a bit more on the "down-low" when advertising your services for dirty deeds.

I didn't threaten to shoot any one, errrrrrrr but would off Elen Clarke cheaply, LOL!!

[Wolf]

Of course they are not suitable for any job at all....and as soon as he said,ah,no - they'd be yelling at ther top of their voice about discrimination just because they don't use underarm deoderant

Yeah, well, what does he expect, after discriminating against them for being incapable like that!

Waiting for the day when we have to hire a pastry chef on the Help Desk because we won't be allowed to discriminate those who have absolutely no background in InfoTech - or have to interview everyone who manages to get an application to us because we can't discriminate against those who have no education, spell their own names a different way three times on the same page or were actually applying for a fore-court attendant's job at Mobil but accidentally sent the application form to us.

Face it: WE ALL DISCRIMINATE!

As employers, as employees, in our personal lives... It's how we function, it is how we deem who/what is suitable to our needs. If you like only MOS with blonde hair, you're hardly going to date one with dark hair; if you're hiring a chef, you're not going to hire someone who can't cook; if you have strong moral qualms about killing you're not going to sign up for the Marines.

If your discrimination runs to prejudice against certain races, sexes, creeds, ages etc, you're still going to do it - but if you have a braincell or two you're going to be discrete about it: "The successful candidate had more like the skill pool we required", "we did not think that the unsuccessful applicant would mesh with the team". If they take you to employment court, the blunt "well, frankly, we didn't hire him because he came across as a troublemaker - and it would seem that his actions have proved us right!" should suffice.

[Finn]

finn,

next time you need to fire somebody go onto their computer while they are at lunch or in the loo or something and look at some kiddy porn. I'm sure you shouldn't have a problem firing the "offender" when that is discovered.

I hired a Private Investigator and an IT Forensics expert to provide factual information with the primary objective of discrediting him and his case. It worked.

When he started to lay the bullshit on thick, I pointed out his subscription to an adult dating service which he visited often during work and asked if he applied the same integrity and honesty in his recent marriage as he did to his employment. There were many other skeletons that came out of the closet during the case.

[The_Dover]

that was your subscription Finn, don't you remember how we met?

[Wolf]

Trouble with the new law, is you have a hell of a job getting rid of someone who is totally useless. One place I worked, one of the departments hired a bloke who must have impressed them with his ability enough to get the job and then, once installed, proved to be totally useless at it. Don't know if he faked his ability at the interview or faked his inability once he got the job - tending to the latter as I don't think anyone as useless as he purported to be could have landed a job.

They couldn't sack him, of course - total inability to do your job is not grounds for dismissal (WTF????) so they moved him to another, easier job, which he also "couldn't do", so they moved him again to an even easier job - in the end, his job description was basically turn up to work 5 days a week at the designated time and stick around until the end of the working day.

Regrettably he proved quite capable of that (since failure to turn up to work is grounds for dismissal) and they were stuck with him for years until they were able to make him redundant. (Guess they no longer required a professional "turner-upper").

Under the old rules they would have at least gotten three months of work out of him and he'd've had a hard job trying to convince them he was suddenly incapable of performing his duties afterwards.

One of the jobs he seemed incapable of doing was sit in a shed and hand out supplies to people who turned up with the appropriate paperwork. I mean, even soldiers manage to do quartermaster work and they need to be told when to eat!

The new laws just protect the inept and lazy. Hardly surprising, really, given that they were written by politicians - a sub-human species infamous for being both inept and lazy.

[Finn]

The morons that create these idealistic laws don't understand the wider implications such as what Wolf described. This prick that I hired had a direct impact on the team that worked around him. These people work hard and he made their life a living hell to the point that 3 of them wanted to leave. Why does the employment law ignore these people who have been with me for over 5 years?

I'll tell you why. Because the employment laws in NZ promote failure and inhibit growth just like the tax laws - just try and work harder, create wealth and do well by your family and we'll punish you for trying by taxing you to a point that it's not worth it.

Fuck you Labour and fuck you kiwi's that voted for them. Fucken inbreeds.

[The_Dover]

hey man, you hired me.

[Oakie]

I'm no fan of the ERA myself but it's really just a set of rules. If you play by the rules you can achieve what you want as an employer. It won't happen overnight but it will happen. Best thing to do if you ever want to get rid of someone is be guided by an employment lawyer.
Interested to see what a few of you have said about making these people's positions redundant as a way to get rid of them. That probably is the fastest way and is probably OK as long as you change the person's job around enough so it stands up to challenge. Once again though there are 'rules' to follow regarding redundancy.

[Finn]

hey man, you hired me.

Even I can make mistakes. Hey, we did have fun though, but it had to come to and end when the auditors questioned the 600% increase in entertainment expenses. My argument that prostitution was now legal and should have it's own GL code didn't site well with PWC. My attemps to code it as "Personal Development" and in your case "Staff Taining" also failed.

[Finn]

I'm no fan of the ERA myself but it's really just a set of rules. If you play by the rules you can achieve what you want as an employer. It won't happen overnight but it will happen. Best thing to do if you ever want to get rid of someone is be guided by an employment lawyer.
Interested to see what a few of you have said about making these people's positions redundant as a way to get rid of them. That probably is the fastest way and is probably OK as long as you change the person's job around enough so it stands up to challenge. Once again though there are 'rules' to follow regarding redundancy.

But what about all the small & struggling businesses that can't afford a lawyer from Dowee Screwem & How? And why should I play by the "rules"? It's my fucken company. It's hard enough as it is having an 1/3 unwanted shareholder who puts their hand out for their share before you've even fucken made it. Then they do their best to fuck you over in ever way possible.

The laws clearly favour the lazy and incompetent that our education system and universities are producing in great quantities.

P.S. My last 3 posts were aided by beer.

[Jamezo]

I think you could sneak it into the Human Resources budget, but that would be pushing it in Dover's case.

[Finn]

I think you could sneak it into the Human Resources budget, but that would be pushing it in Dover's case.

I don't have an HR person in my Company. HR people are scum and the role is pointless and void in modern commerce. Just ask WINJA.

[SARGE]

It's hard enough as it is having an 1/3 unwanted shareholder who puts their hand out for their share before you've even fucken made it. Then they do their best to fuck you over in ever way possible.


i know a guy who knows a guy that can take care of that for a few grand...

[Finn]

i know a guy who knows a guy that can take care of that for a few grand...

I am referring to the Government. 33% company tax.

[SwanTiger]

I don't have an HR person in my Company. HR people are scum and the role is pointless and void in modern commerce. Just ask WINJA.
Ain't that the fucken truth. I have been lied to by every single HR person I have dealt with.

Finn, I know exactly what your company needs to re-establish strong morale. You need to hire me under some random position with my responsibilities being 'annoying' and 'cunty', this will cause fellow employee's to hate me and inturn form a stronger bond with the "outcast" clearly being me.

You can then build on this morale with exercises such as "Bad Mouth Swanny Mondays" and "Make Fun of Hyosung Wednesdays".

[Finn]

Ain't that the fucken truth. I have been lied to by every single HR person I have dealt with.

Finn, I know exactly what your company needs to re-establish strong morale. You need to hire me under some random position with my responsibilities being 'annoying' and 'cunty', this will cause fellow employee's to hate me and inturn form a stronger bond with the "outcast" clearly being me.

You can then build on this morale with exercises such as "Bad Mouth Swanny Mondays" and "Make Fun of Hyosung Wednesdays".

I think a better strategy would be to bring you in and behind the scenes, hand you a major deal on a plate and then fire you cause you parked in my spot.

Respect is important.

[paturoa]

I am referring to the Government. 33% company tax.

thats of the profit, you didn't mention thats also over and above the 12.5% Grab Snatch and Take

11.5 billion hmmmm

[oldrider]

Finn, It still cost you a lot lost time and business focus while you were concentrating on this, less than, non contributor to your business objectives.

The art of diplomacy is in telling this c**t where to go and have him looking forward to the trip!

Convince him that leaving was his own idea shake his hand and tell him how sorry you are to be loosing him as he leaves, everyone is happy, time is not lost, costs a lot less, minimum staff disruption and once he has gone everyone forgets him very very quickly.

In the case you have outlined you may have won the war but was there any need for the battle in the first place? IE: Recruit in haste, repent at leisure.

That was still a very very expensive lesson!

With the advantage of 20/20 hindsight do you think you would ever make that same mistake again, even more importantly could you afford to? Cheers John.

[SARGE]

I am referring to the Government. 33% company tax.

like i said ...




You can then build on this morale with exercises such as "Bad Mouth Swanny Mondays" and "Make Fun of Hyosung Wednesdays".

dont you already have those days?)


Finn.. i think you need to have one of those motivational posters made for your office with the following scene from Joseph Heller's Catch 22:



General Dreedle: All right, at ease... there'll be no more moaning in this outfit... the next man who moans is going to be very sorry...
Danby: Ohhhhhhh...
General Dreedle: Who is this man?
Colonel Cathcart: Major Danby, Sir.
Lt. Col. Korn, XO: Danby... D-A-N-B-Y...
General Dreedle: Take him out and shoot him.
Colonel Cathcart: Sir?
General Dreedle: I said take him out and shoot him... can't you hear?
Colonel Cathcart: Take Major Danby out and shoot him...

[Finn]

thats of the profit, you didn't mention thats also over and above the 12.5% Grab Snatch and Take

11.5 billion hmmmm

And FBT, ACC and all the compliance costs etc, etc, etc.

[SwanTiger]

I think a better strategy would be to bring you in and behind the scenes, hand you a major deal on a plate and then fire you cause you parked in my spot.

Respect is important.

I'm not sure if that is sarcasim or an insult, or alcahol talking.

Out of curiosity, what was the 'ex-employee' in charge of? What are the laws relating to 'demotion'. I've started working at a place where a lady who was 'sure of herself' was demoted to a role on the lower spectrum of the organisation chart, yet she still won't quit.

[Finn]

Finn, It still cost you a lot lost time and business focus while you were concentrating on this, less than, non contributor to your business objectives.

The art of diplomacy is in telling this c**t where to go and have him looking forward to the trip!

Convince him that leaving was his own idea shake his hand and tell him how sorry you are to be loosing him as he leaves, everyone is happy, time is not lost, costs a lot less, minimum staff disruption and once he has gone everyone forgets him very very quickly.

In the case you have outlined you may have won the war but was there any need for the battle in the first place? IE: Recruit in haste, repent at leisure.

That was still a very very expensive lesson!

With the advantage of 20/20 hindsight do you think you would ever make that same mistake again, even more importantly could you afford to? Cheers John.

That's my point John, I'm not happy that I was forced to go through this process. However, the win was personal for me. This person worked for 3 major NZ companies, had glowing references and talked the talk.

What I learnt as a general rule was that for senior execs, don't hire kiwi's. Without huge resource around them, they are useless.

Trying to convince him to leave didn't work. He actually liked the job in a Company that is growing and in an exciting space.

[oldrider]

That's my point John, I'm not happy that I was forced to go through this process. However, the win was personal for me. This person worked for 3 major NZ companies, had glowing references and talked the talk.

What I learnt as a general rule was that for senior execs, don't hire kiwi's. Without huge resource around them, they are useless.

Trying to convince him to leave didn't work. He actually liked the job in a Company that is growing and in an exciting space.

It is true Finn, the ones that are painted up by multiple previous pisshole managers are pretty hard to spot especially if they are skilled actors with it.
You really have to dig deep and sometimes you still get done.
Congratulations on your win. Cheers John.

[Wolf]

The morons that create these idealistic laws don't understand the wider implications such as what Wolf described. This prick that I hired had a direct impact on the team that worked around him. These people work hard and he made their life a living hell to the point that 3 of them wanted to leave.
I hear ya on that. The Ineptitude poster boy had his immediate colleagues and people in other departments wondering why they bothered working when you could be paid to just turn up and sit around all day merely by claiming incompetency. A bad employee of that sort or the sort Finn describes can seriously ruin a work environment.

Worked with a few wankers in the past but mostly I've had good teams - the difference is astronomical. One prick can ruin a work environment to the point no one else wants to turn up..

[Brett]

This is the very reason that we have moved to contracting out all of the work that we can at my company. Everytime that someone leaves, we try to replace them with a person on contract. It may intitially cost a bit more, i.e. their charge out rate, but when it comes to their lack of performance, it is much cheaper to get them to walk. This doesn't work in all industries. granted.
The sooner the 33% tax rate drops the better. Having some dickhead government claim a third of the profit is a bitch. As you mentioned Finn, they also then go about planning legislation, trade agreements etc. that in the end have implicaions that could see the end of your company (seen that happen too many times.) or at least make your trading that much bloody harder.

The only reason someone would be happy with Helen is if they are sitting on their arse on the benefit collecting a hefty dole payment while being as productive as a lump of dirt. NO productive person can possibly be inspired to work hard under labour, hence my primary reason for hating Labour with a total passion, everything is geared such that it promotes laziness!

How about we see some of the surplus announced this week go towards an IMMEDIATE reduction in the company tax rates (primarily) and to personal tax rates (secondarily), not wait for that BASTARD Cullen to offer it just before election.

[Lou Girardin]

Unfortunately, he was a lefty and so too is the ERA.

The person that handled the case from the ERA was superb..

So you got the only righty in the bunch?
Or perhaps the ERA do the best they can with the laws they have.

[Beemer]

I'm a freelancer so if I don't perform, I quite rightly would expect NOT to be offered work in the future. It's a great incentive to do a good job when your survival depends on it! I've worked for employers and in some cases they have made my life hell - or other employees have - and I've wanted to quit. I worked for one top photography business where two of the young girls who worked there treated me like shit because I got the job one of them had been angling for. I put up with it for three months, even approached the owner but nothing changed so I quit. I had HUGE satisfaction a while back at a wedding expo when I saw one of them touting for business. Another girl was passing out brochures and when she tried to hand me one I said "no thanks, I wouldn't touch your company with a barge pole after the way THAT bitch treated me when I worked there". You should have seen her face, she ran straight back and told her and I felt very satisfied when she realised who I was!

[Finn]

So you got the only righty in the bunch?
Or perhaps the ERA do the best they can with the laws they have.

No, the ERA person that handled the case was a lefty. For sure.

Here's something interesting. All authority members at the ERA are not qualified to practice law. They're not even ex-lawyers yet they make legally binding decisions on employment laws.

In the end, it's whoever can afford the best lawyer and knows how to play the game.

This is the first time in 10 years I have ever had to go through the ERA process. I wouldn't wish it on Skyryder.

[Paul in NZ]

Its a tough one and you make some good points.

A few years back Vicki suddenly gained a new boss from a competitor are the area manager. She was a real head case. Demo stock intended for the reps never left her garage as well as promotional prizes etc. She sold it through the paper, gave it to family or swapped it to other crooked reps for stuff they had stolen.

Vicki accidentally saw it all (had to hide 5 brand new BBQ's) and that was it - she became a threat so Vicki started getting a REAL hard time from this bitch.

Of course sales suffered - no sales collateral and this became a performance issue... In the end (this is a VERY long story and this is just a small part of it) it was easier to resign rather than go through it all. The company admitted the woman was a problem, they knew she was dishonest, they knew her glowing references were written to help her leave the old company but there was stuff all they could / would do about it. Their HR people were completely useless and would do nothing practical to help Vicki out.

Vicki resigned - went to work for the competition and was one of their top sales people which was easy after the damage this person had done.

So yes - bad people damage companies and in the case of a small company they can kill them. Bastard really...