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MikeL
1st July 2004, 17:24
Anyone got any suggestions as to the following?

Out riding yesterday when the oil light came on at about 80 k. I throttled back and the light went out. I was only a few kms from home so rode back carefully checking the oil light every few seconds, but it stayed off. Back home I put the bike on the centre stand, waited 3-4 mins and checked the oil level. Down to the minimum. Strange, but I assumed it was a correct reading, so added oil to bring it up to just over the halfway point, then left the bike overnight. Started it up, warmed up for a few mins then decided to check the oil level. Again left it for 4-5 mins but to my surprise it was way down again. Freaked out, checked the concrete underneath for any sign of a leak - absolutely nothing. Waited another 5 mins just in case it hadn't all drained back into the sump, then looked again. Still way down to the minimum. Added oil again (must have put in half to 3/4 litre between yesterday and today). Then rode it in to Mt Eden for a chat with my friend Ricky. Puzzlement all round. No sign of a leak, no evidence of oil being burned (not that that would account for it). Back home, another check shows the level way over the maximum. So the question is: where did the oil hide? And now it's over-full, I suppose I should take some out. But how can I do that without losing the lot?

Eddieb
1st July 2004, 17:29
I'd be very careful how high you rev it while it's overfull.

Some of the more knowledgable chaps and chapesses could explain why and what happens but I believe the amount of internal pressure can get too high and cause things to blow or go pop if it's too full.

I would geuess it stays in the oil galleries and sticking to various rockers etc and takes a while to leak back down to the sump.

toads
1st July 2004, 18:11
check your radiator if your bike has one, it's possible you have a blown head gasket, don't want to be too pessimistic but if you have a leak between the water jacket and the oil galleries that would explain the oil disappearance etc, hopefully it's nothing like that, but oil in the radiator or milky looking oil in the engine will confirm one way or the other

MikeL
1st July 2004, 18:32
check your radiator if your bike has one, it's possible you have a blown head gasket, don't want to be too pessimistic but if you have a leak between the water jacket and the oil galleries that would explain the oil disappearance etc, hopefully it's nothing like that, but oil in the radiator or milky looking oil in the engine will confirm one way or the other

The XJR is air/oil cooled so no water to worry about. I'm wondering if there might be a partial blockage somewhere in the oil circulation though???

FROSTY
1st July 2004, 19:16
shit its got me baffled dude --um could it be maybee the bike is soposed to have the oil level checked on its wheels not on the main stand.
I know with the xj's and fj's ive owned that when the oil light was on you needed to add a half litre of oil

What?
1st July 2004, 19:41
Next time you warm it up and then find the level down, whip the cam cover off. If the engine gets drowned in oil, you will at least have located it. You should also be able to suss out why it is not draining back to the sump.
If that's not it, the only place left for the oil to hide is in the gearbox, but I can't see how/why it would stay in there.

merv
1st July 2004, 19:54
I agree its bloody weird, makes it sound like its acting like a semi-dry-sump motor like my WR is. On the WR the oil is held in the frame tube when the motor is running but it all drains back into the sump when the engine is off. This could all be a possibility except for the oil light thing, the fact it came on really says something was not right and I'm guessing the XJR isn't a dry sump engine anyway. Sounds like you need to consult a manual fast.

Jinx3d
1st July 2004, 20:17
I wonder if your oil pressure switch has gone. Maybe it wasnt down at all?

Those things do pack in and bring on the light intermittantly.

Speaking as someone who pulled the big ends and oil pump out trying to find the reason the oil pressure light was coming on only to find.....

merv
1st July 2004, 20:21
You're checking with a dipstick or view window though presumably, so at that point its nothing to do with whether the pressure switch is working or not?

Bandito
1st July 2004, 20:47
Problem with your oil light coming on cn be solved by removing the oil light bulb from behind the instument panel-worked well on my old XJ550.

MikeL
1st July 2004, 21:49
Thanks for all the replies. At this stage it's still a bit of a mystery. What I propose to do is:
1. Assume that the oil pressure switch/warning light are functioning correctly and that the light came on because the oil level was low.
2 Assume that for some reason the glass view window may not be giving a correct indication of the total amount of oil in the system within 5 - 10 minutes of stopping the engine. Will check frequently over next couple of days but will wait 20 minutes at least after turning off.
3. Try to drain the excess 1/2 litre or so of oil without losing the lot. Otherwise will do a complete oil change.
Can anyone with a similar air/oil cooled engine confirm how long it takes after switching off for the oil level to be accurate? The owner's manual says to wait for a few minutes. Ricky at Mt Eden said 10 minutes but this seems excessive to me.

FROSTY
1st July 2004, 22:03
um oil pressure?? Yams dont have pressure lights they have LEVEL lights
I must say I used to check my oil level cold on my xj/fj's
One waaay out of center feild idea is that the oil got pumped up the breather into the air box.
I remember overfilling an xj900 once and the oil pumped up the breather into the airbox then dripped a mess of oil out the airbox drain pipe.
Not likely but its a maybee

Zed
1st July 2004, 22:04
Thanks for all the replies. At this stage it's still a bit of a mystery. What I propose to do is:
1. Assume that the oil pressure switch/warning light are functioning correctly and that the light came on because the oil level was low.
2 Assume that for some reason the glass view window may not be giving a correct indication of the total amount of oil in the system within 5 - 10 minutes of stopping the engine. Will check frequently over next couple of days but will wait 20 minutes at least after turning off.
3. Try to drain the excess 1/2 litre or so of oil without losing the lot. Otherwise will do a complete oil change.
Can anyone with a similar air/oil cooled engine confirm how long it takes after switching off for the oil level to be accurate? The owner's manual says to wait for a few minutes. Ricky at Mt Eden said 10 minutes but this seems excessive to me.
Hope you get it sorted out soon Mike. It's not as bad as the guy at my work yesterday who filled his petrol Celica car with diesel! :no:

pete376403
1st July 2004, 22:52
I'd be very careful how high you rev it while it's overfull.

Some of the more knowledgable chaps and chapesses could explain why and what happens but I believe the amount of internal pressure can get too high and cause things to blow or go pop if it's too full.

I would geuess it stays in the oil galleries and sticking to various rockers etc and takes a while to leak back down to the sump.

Overfilling a wet sump motor can cause serious power loss if the oil is high enough to contact the crankshaft. The oil wraps around the crank like a big rope and will just kill the revs. This is the main reason behind windage trays, crank scrapers and dry sumping - all to get the oil away from the crank.

Shafted
1st July 2004, 23:21
Sounds a bit too familiar this one

The oil seeming low could be the oil cooler not draining - sometimes they take ages if at all and sometimes seem to want to hold on to it ...

But the oil light coming on at 80 - not wanting to get you worried but I had an ongoing problem with a guzzi that had this symptom - after changing sender etc it still came on intermittently - finally cooking the engine on one big ride where I had decided it must be the dodgy italian electrics! Dipstick, me that is!

Anyway, the problem turned out to be a bolt that had come undone from the wire gauze strainer - and was floating about in the sump, occasionally blocking the oil line but going back when the pressure went down - real bitch - especially when I ended up buggering the big end! And we are not talking the aforementioned alter boys !

Anyway, on that experience,I would just drain the oil and take the sump off and have a good look around - shouldn't take long - at least it wouldn't have on the guzzi.

Much better to be sure than sorry

Good luck

What?
2nd July 2004, 07:09
Can anyone with a similar air/oil cooled engine confirm how long it takes after switching off for the oil level to be accurate? The owner's manual says to wait for a few minutes. Ricky at Mt Eden said 10 minutes but this seems excessive to me.
10 minutes would be the go to be reasonably accurate, but 5 minutes should be near enough. I have found with my CB1100 that anything less than 5 minutes will give a very low reading. Even at 10 minutes, the level will be slightly lower than a cold reading.

merv
2nd July 2004, 08:00
3. Try to drain the excess 1/2 litre or so of oil without losing the lot. Otherwise will do a complete oil change.


Siphon the oil to a bottle with a plastic tube down the filler hole - it doesn't flow as fast as thinner liquids but it still siphons - just go away and have lunch while its doing it and check occasionally how much has been transferred to the bottle.

Dr Bob
2nd July 2004, 09:20
The only thing I would add, is that if the oil is hiding in the engine compartment somewhere - maybe a scavenging channel is somehow impeded by the internal mechanics - that when you stop the bike to check the oil, just stick it into gear and push it across the floor to turn the engine a little. This may dislodge any oil that has settled somewhere. Alternatively, is the surface your checking the oil on perfectly flat? maybe a little slope is keeping the oil somewhere, otherwise the logic of your problem defies me.

Two true stories about oil.

On an interesting note: When I lived in Eastbourne I stopped for petrol at a garage (back in those days it was more workshop and less service station, but still had a pump) and the young fella was out the front cleaning the concrete. It turns out some lady came limping in with a jag, her husband was going to change the oil before he went away on business and she didn't know whether he had done it. She saw a pack of oil next to the car so proceeded to fill the car until she could see the 'level' in the engine (as the description goes, this is the oil level in the rocker cover!). As she drove in to the township the frost plugs blew and the engine pumped every drop of oil onto the road. She arrived at the garage as the oil had emptied and the jag promptly seized.

On the other hand guys can be equally uneducated - my dad was a teacher at Naenae college, and one of the other male teachers came to work proudly stating that he had changed the oil in his car. ... but apparantly it was very difficult, and took a very long time. He had to somehow fit a tube to the oil filler, and connect that to a funnel. ?? thought dad. He got him to show him and found the guy had filled the car through the dip stick hole.

Yarg
2nd July 2004, 12:18
Mike,
When i had my XJR I would wait 15 minutes before checking the oil.
not much help I know , but it seemed to take for ever till the oil filled to correct level.

pete376403
2nd July 2004, 16:25
.
Two true stories about oil.
On an interesting note:
On the other hand guys can be equally uneducated - my dad was a teacher at Naenae college, and one of the other male teachers came to work proudly stating that he had changed the oil in his car. ... but apparantly it was very difficult, and took a very long time. He had to somehow fit a tube to the oil filler, and connect that to a funnel. ?? thought dad. He got him to show him and found the guy had filled the car through the dip stick hole.


Obviously the guy didn't know what the 7IO cap was for... ;)

speedpro
2nd July 2004, 20:52
If the oil feed circuit has a non-return valve which is playing up, sometimes the oil galleries might drain back to the sump and not others.

As far as affecting horsepower, I think it was a Honda 900 Boulder and there was 2hp differance between upper and lower levels of oil, measured on the dyno.

MikeL
2nd July 2004, 20:57
Mike,
When i had my XJR I would wait 15 minutes before checking the oil.
not much help I know , but it seemed to take for ever till the oil filled to correct level.

That's interesting. I assumed that the XJR would be like the GSX1200 which gave a correct reading within a few minutes, but perhaps I just need to be a bit more patient...

Redstar
2nd July 2004, 21:59
um had a prob on a bonnie once turned out to be the pressure relife valve in the oil pump sticking and was not allowing the oil to return to the sump.
but I,m sure its not that?

MikeL
6th July 2004, 09:30
Well, I siphoned out a bit of oil to bring the level back to just on the max line. Then rode on the weekend for about 600 kms total. Now the oil is about 3/4, so obviously some has been lost. Still no sign of a leak though and I haven't noticed any blue smoke from the exhaust. Just wondering, did anyone on the Sunday ride behind me notice any sign of oil being burnt?? (Shouldn't be happening at 17000 k, eh?)
I've booked the bike in at Mt Eden on Friday for a service and Ricky will have a look.

mechanic
9th August 2004, 22:54
yamahas use a sump oil level sensor, not an oil pressure sensor. they will quite often have the oil light come on when doing highway speeds because of the amount of oil that is being pumped around the motor which lowers the level in the sump.
if you fill the sump to just under the top of the oil level window instead of half way up ( which is where the level should be) you will still have enough in the sump not to trip the sensor. you must have miss read the oil level. oil cannot hide in a motor & then reappear at a later date. did you recheck when the motor was warm? the level will show slightly higher when it is hot.

MikeL
10th August 2004, 08:08
Well I had the oil and filter changed and since then have done 1500 km with no change in oil level so obviously there is no longer a problem, but I'm still a bit mystified about it.

FROSTY
10th August 2004, 10:21
Mike -out of curiousity I'd suggest taking your air filter out.Follow your crankcase breather pipe up to where it joints the airbox. There will be a little foam filter there. Is that area wet with oil?
Looking back through my XJ notes I had almost exactly the same problem with an xj900 I had slightly overfilled with oil and somehow the breather was sucking oil up into the airbox then draining it back down into the crankcases.
I solved it in the same way you did and it had me scratching my head too.

BM-GS
10th August 2004, 12:14
Air/oil-cooled bikes can hide oil in the oil cooler. There are about 500 methods of verifying the amount of oil in a recent BMW boxer, but the only foolproof way is to drain it all out & measure it, then fill it up with the required quantity. (about 4 times, then take the average).

Most bikes have a sight-glass, which makes it easy to check regularly, but my GS can go from empty to totally full and back again on consecutive days... Paranoia-inducing? Yes.

Try keeping it on the sidestand until the engine's cool, then standing up on the centre-stand (if modern Jap motorbicycles come with such) and checking the level; or if that's what you normally do, try keeping it on the centerstand until cool and then measuring.

Best of luck, but I doubt there's really a problem (though best check, so you can sleep at night!)

MikeL
10th August 2004, 12:50
Thanks for those reassuring comments. I have been making sure that I only check the oil level when the engine has been stopped for at least 10-15 minutes, and it has stayed on full for 1500 km so I'm not worried any more. But I will have a look at the air filter if it's not too inaccessible.

Motu
10th August 2004, 14:35
If I filled my C50 with the correct amount of oil I would have trouble getting up my drive in the mornings,the oil was draging on the flywheels,so I learned to fill it just below the flywheels - this was the level on the dipstick,not the fill capacity,it's only on a small bike you can pick up these very small differences.