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Disco Dan
17th October 2006, 22:54
Looking for some advice on braking:

1) was told by a friend of mine to imagine your "landing an aeroplane". Begin loading the back then just after load up the front, with your bike lowering onto suspension at an angle - hence the landing part!

2) I have no idea how hard to apply rear brake before it will lock on me, i imagine, if engine braking at the same time that would affect this? but again unsure how.

3) Had accident in first week of riding, when i locked the rear and got thrown off - so naturally lacking confidence in this area!

4)Emergency stops - engine brake if time??? What is the best way to go about this? What should you do if you lock a wheel? give throttle, or put out feet?

Will be attending rider training and hopefully, picking "micro's" brain on the mentor session!

Any help would be much appreciated, and im sure we would all benifit from good braking technique!

Kittyhawk
17th October 2006, 23:03
Just Crash!!! Mwwhaahaahaa

Disco Dan
17th October 2006, 23:14
Just Crash!!! Mwwhaahaahaa

gee.. thanks :gob:

hehe, will practice my braking on your bike then?? :dodge:

Kittyhawk
17th October 2006, 23:30
It's simple...

Hold on the front brake, rev the bike and drop the clutch still hold the brake though watch the smoke surround you.....:innocent:

Front Brakes = 2/3rds of braking power
Rear Brakes = 1/3rd braking power.

Apply the front first, and just pulse the rear, if it locks up let it go as traction = grip again. (thats my way of stopping and it works ok)

If the rear locks while you hold the foot brake on, just let it off and then tap it on again. That way you have more control for the slide.

Dont do a stoppie for an emergency stop - might scratch ya bike.

Also depends on the bike, how senstive the brakes are, tires, and experience.

Everyone has a different style of braking, so it's just trail and error.

MyGSXF
17th October 2006, 23:46
The objective is to stop as quickly & safely as possible.. using BOTH brakes & without locking the wheels, falling or stalling.


FRONT brake gives you about 75% of your braking power
REAR brake gives you about 25% of your braking power!!!!!


The order of application is: 1)Throttle off 2)front brake (squeeze) 3)clutch 4)rear brake 5) down gears

Control is lost as soon as wheel STOPS rolling.. so if you lock the wheel - release the brake & re-apply progressively.


One of the MOST important things is: to look UP & FORWARDS.. if you look down.. you will go down!!! (where ever you LOOK.. is where you will go!)

The Technique.

1) keep eyes UP on the horizon
2) keep bike upright & controlled
3) close the throttle
4) Apply FRONT brake progressively - squeeze
5) clutch in
6) Apply the rear brake progressively (to about half way, then forget about it)
7) Continue to focus & apply the front brake progressively until bike is completely stationary
8) down change through the gears just before coming to a holt (tap tap tap tap.. no throttle revs!)
9) stop in first gear, left foot down..
10) check mirrors & be ready to escape from possible dangers


Find a large carpark that is very quiet.. high school etc.. & PRACTICE your emergency stopping. Start of trying it at a very slow speed.. just to get used to the order you need to do things in. Then as you get more confident.. SLOWLY!!!! increase your speed!! get used to doing it again.. before you SLOWLY increase your speed again.. & keep going like that until you feel confident. PRACTICE where ever & when ever you can!


Check out www.roadsafe.co.nz

Hope this helps you... Take care out there!!

Jen :scooter: :rockon:

James Deuce
18th October 2006, 05:34
You guys are overestimating the rear brake's effectiveness hugely.

The balance is more like 90% Front, 10% rear for sporty motormacycles.

Most other road going motormacycles would be in the 80% Front, 20% rear ratio.

The most important thing to remember is that as you brake harder at the front, there is less and less weight on the rear wheel. As your front suspension compresses it un-weights the rear making the rear brake less and less effective the harder you apply the front brakes. You have to practice modulating brake pressure front and rear, as the most effective emergency stops use both brakes initially and then more front and less rear, until the bias is 100% front and no rear.

Make sure you at least think about how you would cope with heavy braking mid-corner. Stand the bike up, then brake. Leaned over your tyres have already used up a considerable amount of their traction budget and heavy braking while cranked over will cause an almost inevitable lowside.

I've participated in some very fun braking demos and it always amuses me how sick people look when you stop from 50 km/hr with the front brake only in a very short space, and just how friggin long it stops to take on the rear alone.

Cruisers because of their weight distribution and low centre of mass would be in the 60% front, 40% rear range.

As everyone else has said, practice, practice, practice.

I still get caught out though. Especially if I exceed my maximum tasks per second limit.

jonbuoy
18th October 2006, 07:21
Like Jim2 says - you will easily lock the rear if your braking hard on the front. I use the rear for stabilising the back end more than braking, except at lower speeds or filtering.

Pwalo
18th October 2006, 07:26
As per Jim instructions, practice, practice, paractice. The more you do things the more confident you become; and riding really is a confidence game.

If you can find yourself a nice long straight stretch of tarmac and practice your stops gradually building up speed. In a few weeks you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about (or aboat if you're Canadian).

MikeyG
18th October 2006, 11:03
Progressively apply the front brake, ie pull the lever gently at first before using more force. If you just grab a handful you will lock the front.

Tried putting my legs out when I locked the front a couple of months ago. They just folded up under me and the bike resulting in a knee injury, no other damage to me or bike.

Disco Dan
18th October 2006, 16:31
got to practice my braking skill while lane splitting on northwestern this afternoon.. ..some 'homey g' boy racer thought hed be smart and try and block my path... braked, swerved and elbowed his mirror as i went past... ass.

cheers for all the great advice!!

now to figure out why my front disc is sqeeking now :( was pretty worn when i picked it up from red baron?? but i ssumed they wouldnt sell me a bike with a badly worn disc.. will get it checked out just in case!

Grahameeboy
18th October 2006, 16:40
I was told by a Police Instructor in UK that you should apply rear immediately before applying front as this settles suspension for braking.......I have always done this an it make a difference as it settles the front end.

Grahameeboy
18th October 2006, 16:43
The objective is to stop as quickly & safely as possible.. using BOTH brakes & without locking the wheels, falling or stalling. Hope this helps you... Take care out there!!

Jen :scooter: :rockon:


I am not sure that pulling in clutch so soon is correct as engine braking is lost....should pull clutch in at last moment and if you stall not a major........as with the clutch pulled in the bike is effectively coasting.

MyGSXF
18th October 2006, 19:01
I am not sure that pulling in clutch so soon is correct as engine braking is lost....should pull clutch in at last moment and if you stall not a major........as with the clutch pulled in the bike is effectively coasting.

I did a motorcycle training weekend a month ago with Roadsafe, & that is their emergency braking procedure. I did another course with them a year ago, & it was the same procedure back then. I am also booked into do their advanced course next weekend.. & it will be the same then.

You haven't got time to use 'engine braking' in an emergency stop anyway.. it's about stopping as FAST as possible, without locking it up. or losing it.. so you won't be 'using' the gears to stop you, like you do in a normal slowing down situation. Emergency stopping is about using the brakes.. & using them correctly. Also.. if you have stopped for an emergency.. you need to be stopped in first gear, with the engine running, clutch in, checking the mirrors.. READY for a quick getaway, should any trouble be coming up behind you.. like another vehicle. IF you have stalled.. you are not ready to MOVE out of harms way.. FAST.. if required!!

jonbuoy
18th October 2006, 21:11
Yeah I was taught not to pull in clutch till last minute, I was told it helps to stop the rear from locking up. If you clutched in from your emergency stop you wouldn't be in first gear anyway - unless you've worked you way down through the box, though thats not likely if its an emergency. You will probably be in a higher gear.

jeremysprite
18th October 2006, 21:20
Was reading Superbike this week, had a good wee article on how come Rossi can ride fast? To do with mental stuff, think "I'm not going to hit this car, I'm going to brake, turn to the left, throttle, kick mirror etc", "I'll pass him at Paddock Hill," "I'll just keep leaning, even though this corner is a lot sharper than I thought..."

Goblin
18th October 2006, 21:50
Brakes are overrated. In my experience, in an emergency situation, I have survived by looking for an escape route and powering my way out of situations. As opposed to "target fixating" on the threat and trying to stop before hitting it.

If you've already been chucked off from using the rear brake, try getting used to using the front only. Find somewhere deserted and spend time practicing but take it one step at a time. Just dont go grabbing a handful and losing it.

boomer
18th October 2006, 21:57
As a learner, the rear was the one i always stomped on; i quickly learnt the errors of my way, especially in the wet.

M1CRO
18th October 2006, 22:05
There is some good advice in this thread and some not so good...
Will catch up with in the next few days hopefully..
What are you up to on Friday after work?

I have to fly down to Dunedin to help out on a course on Sunday :scooter:

Disco Dan
18th October 2006, 22:12
There is some good advice in this thread and some not so good...
Will catch up with in the next few days hopefully..
What are you up to on Friday after work?

I have to fly down to Dunedin to help out on a course on Sunday :scooter:

cheers, friday i finish uni at 12.30 so anytime after that?

Much apreciate your help ay!!! legend!! :ride:

Kittyhawk
18th October 2006, 22:14
Like I said - crash :innocent:

Come for a little blat and I'll stand in front of your bike and you'll stop quick!

PM me if you want to go out and practise, keen to join in never can do with enough practise

Disco Dan
18th October 2006, 22:27
Like I said - crash :innocent:

Come for a little blat and I'll stand in front of your bike and you'll stop quick!

PM me if you want to go out and practise, keen to join in never can do with enough practise

i dont get it? you stand in front of me and i will wanna go faster?? havent you played 'chicken' before??? :Punk:

HAHAHA!!

M1CRO
18th October 2006, 22:27
cheers, friday i finish uni at 12.30 so anytime after that?

Much apreciate your help ay!!! legend!! :ride:

Can I meet you at SKYCITY at 5:00pm and we can lanesplit to somewhere quieter? lol

You have my cell :)

M1CRO
18th October 2006, 22:44
Have also put a calendar entry in for Monday 23rd as I will be back in Auck on Sat night :scooter:

Disco Dan
19th October 2006, 02:09
Can I meet you at SKYCITY at 5:00pm and we can lanesplit to somewhere quieter? lol

You have my cell :)

Done! see you then! :scooter:

Grahameeboy
19th October 2006, 04:09
I did a motorcycle training weekend a month ago with Roadsafe, & that is their emergency braking procedure. I did another course with them a year ago, & it was the same procedure back then. I am also booked into do their advanced course next weekend.. & it will be the same then.

You haven't got time to use 'engine braking' in an emergency stop anyway.. it's about stopping as FAST as possible, without locking it up. or losing it.. so you won't be 'using' the gears to stop you, like you do in a normal slowing down situation. Emergency stopping is about using the brakes.. & using them correctly. Also.. if you have stopped for an emergency.. you need to be stopped in first gear, with the engine running, clutch in, checking the mirrors.. READY for a quick getaway, should any trouble be coming up behind you.. like another vehicle. IF you have stalled.. you are not ready to MOVE out of harms way.. FAST.. if required!!

No just meant use engine braking..not by using gears. Advantage of a vtwin......as for fast getaway, see your point but I was just saying that stalling better than hitting something.

cowboyz
19th October 2006, 05:27
Im not a fan of pulling in the clutch to stop. If you want to stop in a real hurry then jump on both brakes. Pay attention to what your wheels are doing. If anything locks up or preferrably you will find the point just before it locks up release the brake and reapply. Drop gears if you can without locking up the rear.clutch in at last moment. Never take your feet off the footpegs. Keep scanning for an escape route. If an accident is unavoidable then look for the best place to crash.

years ago I was in some discussion about this and it was general opinion that you should toss the bike and get as far away from it as possible. I disagree just as much today as I did then. It isn't over till its over. My closest call was a truck not giving way at a roundabout. I didn't have a hope of stopping as I was already on the roundabout and I looked at the gap and went for it. Hit my knee on the front bumper of the truck but didn't drop it. Ride it out for as long as you can.

Flyingpony
19th October 2006, 11:18
And don't forget to squeeze/grip the tank with your legs while under heavy brakes otherwise the important bits will get, well, you know :shit: You'll then have that :sick: feeling.

As a sport bike rider, the rear brake is never touched during heavy braking moments because it can lock up so quickly it'll stall the engine, even with clutch covered. Also the rear end will then attempt to over take the front wheel.

Since the front gives 80-90% of stopping power, keeping the rear rotating gives better directional control than when it's skidding.

I've never bother with the idea of loading up the front by using the rear brake first, this wastes valuable braking distance. I've always gone start for the front. In corners I first look for escape routes, then stand it up and brakes!

Unfortunately I do frequently find myself in a too high gear for immediate take off, but at least the engine is 90% of the time still ticking over. If not, I'll thumb the starter while down shifting. Maybe because I'm in 5th at 50km/hr means I've got too many gears to quickly down shift since I'm normally sitting stationary in 2nd or 3rd. Had I a higher geared bike, I'd be in first gear.

As others have said, planning your escape route is equally important and ensuring where you do end up won't put you in further harm.

DingDong
19th October 2006, 11:41
I got caught out moving from my old RF900 to the Tl1000 I have now... got used to grabbing loads of front on the RF... tried it on the TL1000 (over-confident) and lightend/locked the rear... I'll just stop using it, usless on a sports bike (so I've learnt)

XP@
19th October 2006, 12:38
1) keep eyes UP on the horizon
2) keep bike upright & controlled
3) close the throttle
4) Apply FRONT brake progressively - squeeze
5) clutch in
6) Apply the rear brake progressively (to about half way, then forget about it)
7) Continue to focus & apply the front brake progressively until bike is completely stationary
8) down change through the gears just before coming to a holt (tap tap tap tap.. no throttle revs!)
9) stop in first gear, left foot down..
10) check mirrors & be ready to escape from possible dangers


Just remember that 3, 4, 5 & 6 are pretty much in parallel and take about 1.5 seconds to complete.

Whilst you should try and get a feel for where your rear locks, if it does then forget about it, just concentrate on your front brake. If your front brake gives you 90% of your stopping power then should not 90% of your attention be on it?

Do pull your clutch in early. If you don't then if the rest of your braking is going well then you will probably stall the bike well before you come to a real stop, this is NOT good if you want to keep going. If you are trying to stop do you really want the engine to be driving the rear wheel? Also how are you going to set the right gear for your new speed?

If you are getting in to a situation where you think you may need to stop fast, then ease off the throttle, cover clutch and brake with FOUR fingers, position your feet ready for brake and gear change. Then if you need to stop you can execute your pre-planned / practiced response. If you think 4 fingers is too mant then measure your stopping distance with two fingers then four fingers

MyGSXF
19th October 2006, 12:52
Just remember that 3, 4, 5 & 6 are pretty much in parallel and take about 1.5 seconds to complete.

Correct!


Whilst you should try and get a feel for where your rear locks, if it does then forget about it, just concentrate on your front brake. If your front brake gives you 90% of your stopping power then should not 90% of your attention be on it?.

not quite.. if it locks.. release brake, then apply pressure again.. not so hard.


Do pull your clutch in early. If you don't then if the rest of your braking is going well then you will probably stall the bike well before you come to a real stop, this is NOT good if you want to keep going. If you are trying to stop do you really want the engine to be driving the rear wheel? Also how are you going to set the right gear for your new speed?

Stalling the bike is not a good practice.. or safe! keep tap tap tapping your left foot on the gears until you have come to a complete stop & can then safely put your left foot down.. & you are in first gear ready to take off again quickly if need be.


If you are getting in to a situation where you think you may need to stop fast, then ease off the throttle, cover clutch and brake with FOUR fingers, position your feet ready for brake and gear change. Then if you need to stop you can execute your pre-planned / practiced response. If you think 4 fingers is too mant then measure your stopping distance with two fingers then four fingers

You sound like the intructors I had!!! :yes: Are you????

Jen

Disco Dan
19th October 2006, 12:55
Just remember that 3, 4, 5 & 6 are pretty much in parallel and take about 1.5 seconds to complete.

Whilst you should try and get a feel for where your rear locks, if it does then forget about it, just concentrate on your front brake. If your front brake gives you 90% of your stopping power then should not 90% of your attention be on it?

Do pull your clutch in early. If you don't then if the rest of your braking is going well then you will probably stall the bike well before you come to a real stop, this is NOT good if you want to keep going. If you are trying to stop do you really want the engine to be driving the rear wheel? Also how are you going to set the right gear for your new speed?

If you are getting in to a situation where you think you may need to stop fast, then ease off the throttle, cover clutch and brake with FOUR fingers, position your feet ready for brake and gear change. Then if you need to stop you can execute your pre-planned / practiced response. If you think 4 fingers is too mant then measure your stopping distance with two fingers then four fingers

I would def aggree with the clutch part, surely it would take longer to stop the bike in an emergency (when your not engine braking) if you its still in gear and clutch engaged. But then without assisstance of engine on back wheel, surely it would lock easily?

arrrggghhh...

off to the carpark... to practice!

XP@
19th October 2006, 14:28
Correct!
not quite.. if it locks.. release brake, then apply pressure again.. not so hard.

Hmmm, I have heard that before. My theory is that either you know where the lock point of your rear brake is through practice or you don't. If you do then your rear should not lock, if you don't then locked or not locked is unimportant. Your attention is far better placed on the front where most of your stopping is happening.
If your rear does lock then ignoring it is probably the best thing you can do. The most urgent thing on your agenda is the reason you are stopping, not a locked back tyre. So why divert your attention from impending doom in front to a relitavely inconcequential event behind you?


Stalling the bike is not a good practice.. or safe! keep tap tap tapping your left foot on the gears until you have come to a complete stop & can then safely put your left foot down.. & you are in first gear ready to take off again quickly if need be.

It took me bloody ages to get that one right (and a few tyres with flat spots on them) but it has been worth it. But to do it you do need your clutch in from the start.


You sound like the intructors I had!!! :yes: Are you????

Nope, but I listened to them :-)

Transalper
19th October 2006, 18:23
It surprises me how many of you are prepaired to only aim for 90% (or whatever it is that only the front brake gives) of your stopping power in an emergency, thus taking 10% longer to stop than needed or crashing 10% harder than needed.
I for one want to stop 100% as quickly as the bike can and to that end have spent time training my right foot to press that rear brake lever quickly but nicely when i get a fright.
If you haven't got the hang of using the rear brake in a hard stop then for cripes sake go out and learn to how to apply some rear without jumping on it too hard.... Learn it, practice it, make it instinctive so you don't have to waist your concerntration thinking about it while doing the rest of the emergency stopping manouver. If you shoud become aware of the ass coming around it's so simple to just lift the right foot and reapply softly again.

jonbuoy
19th October 2006, 18:48
Having the clutch engaged with a closed throttle will not reduce your braking effectiveness - see how fast you go with a closed throttle on a road. Its not always easy to tell if you have locked the rear - some tyres don't even squeal or chirp much - the first thing you will notice is the backend trying to overtake the front. Some bikes have a really strong rear brake with bugger all feedback. But different bikes need different techniques for stopping - on a cruiser you probably want to use more rear - on a sportsbike you don't want to use much - if your really hard on the brakes your rear wheel won't even be on the ground at all - or just skipping which would only take a touch on the rear to lock it.

Grantasaurus
19th October 2006, 19:10
I've always thought the main reason you apply the rear brake is not because it slows you down drastically more quickly, but because it provides a correcting moment, and prevents the back of the bike trying to overtake the front.
It helps stop the braking becoming very messy...
My 2c...

Grantasaurus
19th October 2006, 19:11
Oh yeah, and Disco Dan, congrats on getting the coolest learner bike there is....
Not that I'm biased or anything.

TerminalAddict
19th October 2006, 19:14
so tonight I went out hunting for potential hoons roads.

There's this one I went throught about 3 years ago, which I thought might be worth taking a look.
so I'm trundling along with the speed growing . .soon enough I 'm sitting on about 145-150
I see a few corners come up, judge them, and think .. meh .. back off to 130 . .go through the corners.
Then I see another corner I judge the speed using "pointers" (trees on the side of the road etc etc) and I have a barely conscience thought about holding 130 .. then I see a glimpse of a corner speed sign, which is mostly covered by bushes, it says 55 .. so back down to about 120 as I approach the corner.
I also didn't notice that the road dipped down about half a metre before the corner.
The road surface of the corner appears just as I get a glimpse of the rest of the yellow sign
..........55km
.......gravel road

Front brake goes on as hard as I can, and something tells me I should feathering the back brake.
Clutch comes in and I bang down 3 gears to second.
Front starts to shake so I ease front brake, which caused the back to lock, just for a split second.
Split second descision time:
off back brake completely,clutch in, hard as I can muster on the front ... front locks for a split second .. so off the front, then hard on the front brakes again, as hard I can .. fuck gravels is inches away from front tyre .... let go of everything .. no brakes at all, engine breaking in second.

Peel my eye balls off the inside visor to catch a quick glimpse of how fast I'm going as I hit the gravel ......
40kph

gently ride home very sedately to allow my testicles out from where ever they were hiding.

whew !!

Emergency breaking practice: check ;)

cowboyz
19th October 2006, 19:15
every bike has its own little traits. hopefully one will learn these about their bike before the need for evasive action. I like the rear for settling the bike. The main overriding idea is always to keep the wheels turning.

Transalper
20th October 2006, 09:37
This (http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf) makes very interesting reading (found from the survival links thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=12958))

jonbuoy
20th October 2006, 12:15
Interesting for sure - are they using valve driven telemetry in Canada?!!

jonbuoy
20th October 2006, 12:22
Edit - I see its a full size apple mac - title should be stopping distances with an apple mac as a pillion. Something doesn't add up about that data - they are saying a Valkyrie can stop in the same time/distance as a fireblade?

BAD DAD
20th October 2006, 12:58
Emergecy braking: I usually just stare at the object that I'm about to hit and shout fuuuuaaaaaaaaaak. that was close.

The Stranger
20th October 2006, 13:08
RRRS (http://rrrs.org.nz)

Transalper
20th October 2006, 13:15
... Something doesn't add up about that data - they are saying a Valkyrie can stop in the same time/distance as a fireblade?They reckon there wasn't much in it, and why not? It's not like they say they are both as fast as each other under acceleration. Different bikes, different weights, different wheel bases, different disc sizes, different road/tyre contact patches, blah blah blah, and the factorys i'm sure tyred to make the bikes able to stop as fast as the can so maybe the factorys finished up with different formulas for stopping the different bikes that really did end up with similar results.
I reckon it'd be interesting to watch or even particapate in a brakeing contest sometime.

The Stranger
20th October 2006, 13:27
Concentrate on the front first.
Squeeze, wait for weight transfer then apply more pressure. You are aiming for a point just before lock up.

If you just grab and don't wait for the weight to transfer it is more likely to lock.

Next apply the rear.

On a sport bike it is often of no use using the rear because you will have so much weight on the front even a light touch will lock it up. If the clutch is out (as it should) you will have the benefit of engine braking on the rear.

If you apply rear first
1) You loose time on the most effective brake
2) As you do apply the front and the weight transfers the rear unloads and starts to skid, thus reducing it's effectiveness.

If you apply them at the same time, see 2 above.

So to summarise.
Front first.
Allow weight to transfer and get front working at it's most efficient.
Apply rear if you will get anything out of it.
Eyes up and ahead. After watching hundreds of emergency braking sessions you soon see, the ones who look down head that way.

jonbuoy
20th October 2006, 13:31
Valkerie 309kg's versus fireblade 170kg's for a start, I would belive it if it was done by pro riders not just "experienced" riders (and they ditched the apple mac on the pillion seat and training wheels). I think what they are trying to say is that for an average road rider it doesn't make much odds on the bike. Put a decent rider on them and I think there would be a marked difference in stopping ability between the bikes. But it doesn't give me any faith in their findings.

jade
20th October 2006, 18:37
I disagree with using 4 fingers for braking.. I feel you should use 2 (depending on the feel of your brakes I guess)
If it comes to the point where you find your escape and need to quickly power toward it, the split second it takes to go from fingers on brake to fingers on throttle could be deadly..

Just my opinion... what do I know ...ive got brembos and overshot the corner..

Disco Dan
21st October 2006, 11:50
I disagree with using 4 fingers for braking.. I feel you should use 2 (depending on the feel of your brakes I guess)
If it comes to the point where you find your escape and need to quickly power toward it, the split second it takes to go from fingers on brake to fingers on throttle could be deadly..

Just my opinion... what do I know ...ive got brembos and overshot the corner..

people have given me dif advice in the past on this one..

someone told me i should always ride along with two fingers on brake and clutch?

anther person said it's not a biggie, and just hold on!

...been "just holding on" recently :innocent:

i doubt i would have as much control if i had my hand stretch open like that?

Terminated
21st October 2006, 14:26
This (http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf) makes very interesting reading (found from the survival links thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=12958))

I notice the difference in sequence:
[Page 15 of the study refers]
1. Throttle Off
2. Brake - I was taught front brake, but this study points to rear brake.

Two other things that surprised me:
Distance Versus Time
[Page 8 of the study refers]
I naturally would have thought if you came to a stop quicker you would cover less distance...but not the case and points out the importance of the initial application of the brake etc.

Braking Distance of the Sportsbike and Cruiser
[Page 8 of the study refers - under heading Justification for Standard A Procedure]
The comparison of 41.67 to 41.83 metres for the sportsbike and cruiser was very surprising giving the size of each bike and style.

A very good read.

Heads Up and Enjoy

Motoracer
21st October 2006, 14:51
1) was told by a friend of mine to imagine your "landing an aeroplane". Begin loading the back then just after load up the front, with your bike lowering onto suspension at an angle - hence the landing part!


Ha ha ha ha, funny stuff!

For your bike on sealed roads. Haul on the front brake first, then worry about shifting down fast and applying the rear brake.

Also, ask your self. Is stopping always the most effective answer. Or swerving around the obsticle?

Goodluck

XP@
21st October 2006, 23:18
people have given me dif advice in the past on this one..

someone told me i should always ride along with two fingers on brake and clutch?

anther person said it's not a biggie, and just hold on!

...been "just holding on" recently :innocent:

i doubt i would have as much control if i had my hand stretch open like that?

Work it out for your self then!
Belive no-one, they will tell you what they have learned, and where did they learn it from?

Read all the techniques, go to a carpark and try them out.

XP@
21st October 2006, 23:26
I disagree with using 4 fingers for braking.. I feel you should use 2 (depending on the feel of your brakes I guess)
If it comes to the point where you find your escape and need to quickly power toward it, the split second it takes to go from fingers on brake to fingers on throttle could be deadly..

Just my opinion... what do I know ...ive got brembos and overshot the corner..
You use 2 fingers and you need a bit more room to stop. Therefore on the rare occasion you need the 0.1 second to get your fingers to the throttle, you will not have stopped 2m fast enough and are already implanted in the door of the 4x4 that pulled out in front of you.

Shade
22nd October 2006, 14:33
You can also open a throttle without using your fingers.. eg blipping etc. Most bikes have heaps of power without needing to be fully open.

Disco Dan
22nd October 2006, 15:33
Work it out for your self then!
Belive no-one, they will tell you what they have learned, and where did they learn it from?

Read all the techniques, go to a carpark and try them out.

yeah thats the one! hehe, just wanted to make sure it wasnt 'standard practice' for everyone type thing! i guess it would also depend on the bike a bit too, on larger bikes, 'blipping' the throttle requires less movement than the what seems like a 'half turn' on mine!!!

cheers for all the advice folks!!!

DEATH_INC.
23rd October 2006, 04:56
if you've already been chucked off from using the rear brake, try getting used to using the front only.
Nope, this is not right. Learn why you got chucked off and then correct your technique, go out and learn how to use that rear brake properly, you will still stop faster with both most of the time..........(transalp already said this but I thought I'd say it again)
Using the rear slightly (we're talking milliseconds here) before the front will squat the rear, giving a lower centre of gravity and allowing harder braking, and remember (again) squeeze, dont grab. Don't worry about riding with ya fingers on the levers, it doesn't make much difference (I sometimes do and sometimes don't) and simply use as many fingers on the lever as you need to to get the job done (I use two, loosebruce uses four).
Now get out there and PRACTICE!

R6_kid
23rd October 2006, 09:11
http://www.rrrs.org.nz/index.html

Head along to that, its at Whenuapai, in a controlled environment, with expereienced people watching over you giving pointers and advice etc. Best $50 you'll spend towards your riding.

Goblin
23rd October 2006, 10:04
Nope, this is not right. Learn why you got chucked off and then correct your technique, go out and learn how to use that rear brake properly, you will still stop faster with both most of the time..........(transalp already said this but I thought I'd say it again)
Using the rear slightly (we're talking milliseconds here) before the front will squat the rear, giving a lower centre of gravity and allowing harder braking, and remember (again) squeeze, dont grab. Don't worry about riding with ya fingers on the levers, it doesn't make much difference (I sometimes do and sometimes don't) and simply use as many fingers on the lever as you need to to get the job done (I use two, loosebruce uses four).
Now get out there and PRACTICE!
Ok. I stand corrected! Rear brakes are useful...in small doses. Do what he says. He'd know. It is handy to know just how well you can stop with the front only though. PRACTICE! Practice all combinations so you'll know what will happen when you use front, front/rear, rear.

But me, I'm a front braker. Might be because my rear on my rat wont work anymore.....new pads might help!

scracha
23rd October 2006, 21:04
I did a motorcycle training weekend a month ago with Roadsafe, & that is their emergency braking procedure. I did another course

<--snip-->

way, should any trouble be coming up behind you.. like another vehicle. IF you have stalled.. you are not ready to MOVE out of harms way.. FAST.. if required!!

Was an instructor back in blighty. We HAD to teach people to use the front brake momentarily before rear. If you don't the back of the bike sags (making it more likely to lock up the rear) and the front brake has less weight over it which makes it slightly less effective. I'm sure Performance Berks or one of the mags did tests once and reached the same conclusion. There is a common myth that a low COG helps braking when in fact it's more to do with the friction co-efficient which is greatly enhanced when the suspension is pushing the front wheel DOWN into the ground. Most important factor of all is to apply front progressively and ease up the squeeze if it locks up (you'll hear it howling).

After the emergency stop, 1st thing to do is look behind you. Even if the engine is running you'll likely be in a high gear [*1]. If there's a fast approaching vehicle the prescribed action is to basically say to hell with the bike and just RUN. If there's nothing coming up behind fast then get breath back and knock it down to 1st.

Cruisers need more back brake. Most sportsbikes are about 90%/10% dry and around 75%/25% wet. Tip for normal braking is to just use the rear brake for < 15Kmph to stop the front end pogo-ing. Other tip is to roll off the throttle "gently" before braking [*2] and use a lot more rear brake when carrying a pillion....stops them headbutting you.

[1] Believe me, when people do a pukka emergency $hit staining stop they normally ain't dropping down gears.
[2] Also helps prevent the the 1st gear - headbut - nd gear - headbut - etc etc thing when going up the box. Dunno why anyone thinks clutchless upshifting stops headbuts.

The Stranger
25th October 2006, 10:59
I disagree with using 4 fingers for braking.. I feel you should use 2 (depending on the feel of your brakes I guess)
If it comes to the point where you find your escape and need to quickly power toward it, the split second it takes to go from fingers on brake to fingers on throttle could be deadly..

Just my opinion... what do I know ...ive got brembos and overshot the corner..

4 fingers or nothing is the correct way.
2 issues arise with the various other combinations.
Firstly, when braking hard you could (obviously bike dependent) get 2 the point where the other 2 fingers get in the way, at which point either a) you crush you fingers, b) the effectiveness of the brake is reduced c) you have to release and reapply the brake.
Secondly, and more importantly on a modern bike, you will at some stage either grab the throttle, or forget to release it with your other 2 fingers. At this point the throttle is fighting the brake - Not good.

Have seen the second issue time and again on the emergency braking session at RRRS, and that is just practice. People know what to do, they know where and when the "emergency" is happening. You usually can pick the problem at a glance by the unusually long stopping distance.

Good habits are important, in an emergency you will instinctively do what you normally do. If you are a car driver you are likely to jump on the foot brake - Not good at all. If you cover the brake with 2 fingers that is what you will use in an emergency. So don't go thinking you will just use 4 in an emergency and 2 the rest of the time - it won't work that way.

loosebruce
25th October 2006, 12:20
Fuck theres some weird shit in this thread :mellow: each to their own i say!

I use four fingers when i brake well i prolly only using 3 and my lil finger is just hanging around doing fuck all, i dont have a problem blipping the throttle while braking hard and i dont see why you need your fingers on the throttle to turn it, just use your thumb to start the throttle moving until you can grip again with your hand, i use 1 finger on the brakes if i'm decked out in a corner and need to scrub some speed off, i dont need to use my whole hand as i dont need full power on the brakes.
I never ever use the back brake in any heavy braking situation, i only use it if i'm two up as it's easier on the pillion without the massive weight transfer to the front, but some fast guys do use the back brake.
Really take all the advice in (not all coz some of it's shit) and find what you're comfy with and go from there, best to experiment.

The_Dover
25th October 2006, 12:24
i'm from the shetland islands and have six fingers due to excessive inbreeding within an already shallow gene pool, should i just use four and tuck the others away or use my full compliment of digits?

cowpoos
25th October 2006, 12:42
i'm from the shetland islands

you should hook up with waylander....he's from somewhere in canada too!!

The_Dover
25th October 2006, 12:47
i think he's my daughter

topher
25th October 2006, 13:07
This (http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf) makes very interesting reading (found from the survival links thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=12958))

Certainly is interesting. I've never declutched under braking (been doing it this way on and off road for 35 years now) but, perhaps, will give it a go. Bigger dual purpose bikes like ours (Mine's bigger than yours. And black.) with their longer travel suspension have an exagerated wieght transfer on braking compared to stiiffer sprung bikes. But the rules remain the same. As they say in the paper, many riding styles are ingrained and the only way to change is repetion and practice. That sounds less like fun than just going for a ride to see where the road ends...

XP@
26th October 2006, 12:50
Another one I just remembered for the 2 or 4 fingers argument...

If your brake comes on fully close to the bars then your the two fingers holding the grip may stop full application of the brake. Once trapped behind the lever there is no getting them out so you are stuck.

I've had it happen to me a couple of times. Especially in winter gloves, but other factors could cause it too...

Roj
8th November 2006, 09:12
Thanks for this thread, it reminds me of things I must practise as I am not riding as frequently as I used to or as much as I would like

Ruralman
9th November 2006, 22:00
when it gets like this its 95%+ front brake
The best way to learn good bike handling skills is to do some dirt riding and you quickly learn how to react and deal with things on slippery and loose surfaces, how to slide and countersteer to keep it upright, and in some situations even on a road bike you are better to use a dirt bike technique of leaning the bike but keeping yourself upright.
Many emergency situations involve rapid braking and then a quick manoevre to move away from something with the power going back on again - rather than coming to a complete stop. This happens especially in a corner emergency where you have to get the bike upright to use full front brake power, and then need to be able to lean to either get away from the obstacle or stay on the road.
Great points though Mygsxf - you obviously were paying attention in class!

MyGSXF
9th November 2006, 22:11
Great points though Mygsxf - you obviously were paying attention in class!



of course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :first: again...:Punk:

mops
10th November 2006, 13:40
well... it seems like there's quie a lot of variations on best emergency braking techniques... i guess alot depends on the bike itself...
i'm a inexperienced rider and i';m always looking for some good pointers.

for example, in wet my rear brake is royally useless. stopping power of rear only is so low that it pointless to even use it, as it just results in my fishtailing.... nearly hit innocent pedestrian while fishtailing....

possibly it be because my rear tyre is a touring tyre, while front one is sports tyre...

on dry, it is pretty much useless aswell in emergency situations, as i apply the front the back unloads and provides less and less braking force as the more braking happens on the front. it's ok to do like trail in rear brake when entering the corner or in normal road/traffic use, but forget about emergency braking...

i'm just wondering... theoretically speaking... wouldn't the bikes braking force be the strongest when 100% of weight is on the front wheel ? think about it as you are doing a stoppie, but the rear wheel is only an inch above the ground....

jonbuoy
10th November 2006, 14:32
exactly. There was a picture of a guy doing a stoppie in the wet a few years ago.

Ruralman
10th November 2006, 20:14
Certainly is interesting. I've never declutched under braking (been doing it this way on and off road for 35 years now) but, perhaps, will give it a go. Bigger dual purpose bikes like ours (Mine's bigger than yours. And black.) with their longer travel suspension have an exagerated wieght transfer on braking compared to stiiffer sprung bikes. But the rules remain the same. As they say in the paper, many riding styles are ingrained and the only way to change is repetion and practice. That sounds less like fun than just going for a ride to see where the road ends...

I guess the point is that emergency braking is different to everyday braking - when you really hit the anchors hard the rear wheel gets really light and if you don't pull in the clutch the braking will easily lock the back wheel and cause the engine to stall - then as mygsxf says you are stuffed as far as being ready to make a quick getaway.
On steep downhills on a dirt bike you are always playing with the clutch to prevent this lockup from happening - if you're in too low a gear it makes it worse so usually you're better in second than first and if you do stall a quick pull in of the clutch and then release without the brake will crash start it smoother in second than first (which just tends to lock up the rear wheel)
If you've been riding a long time you may also already be doing all of these things but its all done by your subconcious so when someone asks what you do in this situation you haven't got a clue 'cos you don't have to think about it.

Paul in NZ
10th November 2006, 21:46
Honest to god you people are frickin mental....

Have a shuffty around the web and try to understand the physics of what is happening to your bike. The whole reliance on the front brake thing works wonders on your modern high cog sports bike but for gods sake dont try and ride an old bike, a cruiser or (in some cases) a trail bike that way 'cos you will be DEAD....

Then for the ultimate in wierdness go ride my Guzzi with linked brakes... Front only? Hahahah I don't care how many fingers you use (even all 6 of Dovers) you stomp on everything and it stops... Once you get your head around it and guess what, you can even brake in corners without dying if you use the foot brake after you settle the plot with a dab...

Point of this?

Every bike is just a little different and before you get the mantras too entrenched - take time to consider the vehicle, where the weight is, how far it will move forwards etc. Try the brakes - experiment to see what works. THINK about it before you need it because THINKING and tailoring your thinking to the vehicle you are riding is what works - not a debate of the number of fingers to use... Like me Triumph - You use ALL your fingers and a few spares (if you have em) and both feet on the rear as well - praying helps too...

Just my (slightly pissed) opinion

Motu
10th November 2006, 22:18
I can't stop in a straight line....I don't want to stop in a straight line.Hard on in a panic stop we have lost one of our biggest assets on a motorcycle...manoeverability.....you are fixed on target.

A few weeks ago I came upon a couple of cyclists riding abreast,and I moved out to the centreline to give them plenty of room.....and then the bastards turned right on me! I couldn't go around the front of them,and they weren't moving fast enough for me to get behind them....but that's what I wanted to do.So I was locked up howling sideways,not fixed on my target...although I was sure aware of what would happen if we tangled.I was able to slow down enough to get out of the situation with some decorum.....but if not at some point I could of been off the brake down two cogs and taking an exit point.

Don't direct all your thoughts to stopping in as short a possible distance....look for a way out too.

MyGSXF
10th November 2006, 22:31
Don't direct all your thoughts to stopping in as short a possible distance....look for a way out too.


Yep.. :yes: the trainers said... if you're heading off the road.. DON'T look at the tree or the lamp post.. as you'll be sure to hit them.. look at the GAP inbetween them!!

Jen :rockon:

XP@
11th November 2006, 08:25
I can't stop in a straight line....I don't want to stop in a straight line.Hard on in a panic stop we have lost one of our biggest assets on a motorcycle...manoeverability.....you are fixed on target.

As the great book says "DON'T PANIC". You should not "Panic Stop" because that implies you are panicing and if you are panicing then you really have problems. Sure you may be leaving a trail of brown stuff but if you panic then you are going to do something rash, which could make things worse! (Think blond chick in a '70's movie)

To stop quickly you should have practiced "maximum effort" stops. So you will be able to stop as quickly as possible without thinking about it, so you can concentrate your brain power on finding the way out.

Motu
11th November 2006, 09:03
''Panic stop'' is just a phrase to describe a maximum effort stop.For a WoF test on a motor vehicle we are required to do a ''Panic stop'' and record the readings - of course I don't get into a panic situation a dozen times a day....but I do hit the brakes with maximum effort.With the front brake on hard enough to cause marginal traction or lift the rear wheel off the ground,the ability to turn has practically disapeared...and so has all other options but to stop in time,which you may not have.

Biff
13th November 2006, 16:29
During a training course I attended a couple of years ago I was taught, during an emergency stop, to apply the front brake first (obviously) then immediately apply the rear brake, and ignore the clutch totally. We tested this technique and compared it against other techniques/habits riders on the course brought with them. The reason being that irrespective of what gear you're in - the natural engine breaking of the bike's motor will help. So by pulling the clutch in you, in effect, negate the engine breaking ability of the engine. In addition you may have the opportunity to swerve around the object ahead of you, so use this valuable time to steer, not worry about pulling clutches in and lowering the gears.

Sure - if you've time drop down the box then do it. But I would strongly advise against pulling the clutch in completely and keeping it in during an emergency. Pull it in only when you feel the engine is going to stall you should pull the clutch in, or if you have time to change down gears.

In all honesty I'm a lucky git in that I've only ever had to do one emergency stop in anger during my 20+ years of riding. But I practice them quite often.

Each to their own. But practice makes perverts.

Ixion
13th November 2006, 16:56
No, the reason to ignore the clutch is not for the sake of engine breaking. You can eaisly lock the rear wheel with the rear brake, what more would engine braking add?

The reason not to declutch is in fact the exact opposite. Declutched the rear brake will very easily lock up. With the clutch engaged the flywheel effect of the engine will keep the wheel spinning.

Toaster
13th November 2006, 17:10
I recall a fatal where a young guy used only his rear brake... and for that matter stamped on the thing... hence a huge lock up. Great advice here by many. Front first - firm and progressive, not jammed on - you'll go flying), a little rear to assist. It is amazing how fast you can stop safely with practice.

Also, make sure you put yourself in a position where you have an escape route (say up the side of the vehicle ahead) so the twat in the 4x4 behind you who can't stop in time hits the car instead of your flesh and blood. easier to say than do, but well worth remembering if you can practice it.

MyGSXF
13th November 2006, 22:16
I recall a fatal where a young guy used only his rear brake... and for that matter stamped on the thing... hence a huge lock up. Great advice here by many.

In the advanced rider training course I did recently.. that video from the SCU was shown. Incredibly sad video.. & incredibly unnecessary too!! if only he had learnt the correct technique to do emergency braking! We backtracked through the whole event, breaking it all down.. was a valuable exercise to do! & my deepest respect for the family, for allowing their sons accident to be used as a training tool.. to help prevent further unnecessary loss!

vtec
13th November 2006, 23:20
I've been an avid lanesplitter for a few years, and I reckon that people who lane split on their motorbikes are more likely than those who ride their motorbike like a car, to spot or react towards "escape routes" or gaps where you can avoid obstacles without having to do emergency braking. Don't get me wrong, there's always a time and a place to do an emergency stop, but I've found that you're better off with only partial braking, and good ability to chuck the bike down a gap.

Braking, yeah don't pull the clutch in, just quickly but progressively grab the front brake with a bit of rear to slow the spin of the wheel, if you lock the rear wheel, then just get back off. The only way to get really good is to practice, but most people are too scared of going past the traction limits when practicing braking. If you are going to know the limits of your braking ability you have to go past them at some stage, thus losing traction, doing this you will also learn how to rectify loss off traction, and if you do it enough it will become almost instinctive, and this is how you become a good rider.

XP@
14th November 2006, 00:39
I've been an avid lanesplitter for a few years, and I reckon that people who lane split on their motorbikes are more likely than those who ride their motorbike like a car, to spot or react towards "escape routes" or gaps where you can avoid obstacles without having to do emergency braking. Don't get me wrong, there's always a time and a place to do an emergency stop, but I've found that you're better off with only partial braking, and good ability to chuck the bike down a gap.

Braking, yeah don't pull the clutch in, just quickly but progressively grab the front brake with a bit of rear to slow the spin of the wheel, if you lock the rear wheel, then just get back off. The only way to get really good is to practice, but most people are too scared of going past the traction limits when practicing braking. If you are going to know the limits of your braking ability you have to go past them at some stage, thus losing traction, doing this you will also learn how to rectify loss off traction, and if you do it enough it will become almost instinctive, and this is how you become a good rider.

I lane split too, and when I go in to splitting mode, i cover everything clutch and brake with 4 fingers, rear brake and gear shift. When I need to brake I am probably on a white line, just adding to the fun. But I will also use the clutch and, after the initial actions start to change down. If my clutch wasn't in then I would not be free to drop a gear and gas it if necessary.
So I get braking from both wheels, even if one is slipping on a white line, I won't stall and I should always be in a good gear.

But totally agree on finding traction limit when braking (best in a controlled place). knowing that if you do happen in to a front skid is not necessarily = an ambulance. But probably more importantly what the moment before feels like is a really useful thing to know!

Biff
14th November 2006, 08:14
No, the reason to ignore the clutch is not for the sake of engine breaking.

Ok thanks - I'll make a note to send a mail to South Wales and West Mercia police advising them that their advanced pursuit instructors are giving out duff info.

vtec
14th November 2006, 08:26
Ok thanks - I'll make a note to send a mail to South Wales and West Mercia police advising them that their advanced pursuit instructors are giving out duff info.

Good man, there's a lot of duff info out there. It's just a pity that it's often instructors who perpetuate it.

Ixion
14th November 2006, 08:50
No, the instructors are perfectly correct in saying to leave the clutch alone. But the reason that is a good idea is not to add more rear wheel braking , but rather to stabilise the rear wheel and stop it locking up.

Try it for yourself

From any practical speed, try stopping by braking as hard as possible with the rear brake only. Clutch in and clutch out. You will find in either case you can lock the rear wheel easily so there is nothing to be served by more braking effort - you can't exceed what the tyre can handle, more engine braking just means you must use less pedal. But the stopping distance with the clutch lever out will be less, because the wheel will be less inclined to lock, the engine effect stabilises it. Obviously even more so when using front brake as well, because the rear will go light.

Roj
14th November 2006, 11:15
possibly it be because my rear tyre is a touring tyre, while front one is sports tyre...


Would be a good idea to get a matched set of tyres aimed at the type of riding you are doing, touring tyres generally are aimed at "sustained" speeds and take more to warm up, they don't quite have the same traction as they are a harder compound designed to last longer



i'm just wondering... theoretically speaking... wouldn't the bikes braking force be the strongest when 100% of weight is on the front wheel ? think about it as you are doing a stoppie, but the rear wheel is only an inch above the ground....

Theory is nice but you lose a lot of stability

XP@
14th November 2006, 13:18
No, the instructors are perfectly correct in saying to leave the clutch alone. But the reason that is a good idea is not to add more rear wheel braking , but rather to stabilise the rear wheel and stop it locking up.

Try it for yourself

From any practical speed, try stopping by braking as hard as possible with the rear brake only. Clutch in and clutch out. You will find in either case you can lock the rear wheel easily so there is nothing to be served by more braking effort - you can't exceed what the tyre can handle, more engine braking just means you must use less pedal. But the stopping distance with the clutch lever out will be less, because the wheel will be less inclined to lock, the engine effect stabilises it. Obviously even more so when using front brake as well, because the rear will go light.

So you learn that you only need a light touch on your rear for it to be effective. This is lighter still when you reduce the pressure on it, ie apply the front brake. This reduction in the effectiveness of the back brake also reduces the clutch effect. So whatever bonus you gain from having the clutch out is so minimal it makes little difference.

One reasoning for using the clutch from the word go is that once you start braking you are fixed in your actions. e.g. if you start braking with 2 fingers you cannot switch to 4 fingers. Likewise if you are in a max effort stop and decide you want to go for that convenient gap you need to be in the right gear, to be in the right gear you need to have the clutch in!!!

Also important is the effect of what happens if your rear locks. In reality not a lot. A front slide is a tad disconcerting, and for longer than a few seconds often results in calling the ambulance. In rear slide you loose most, but not all, of your braking from your rear wheel and sometimes the back starts to slide out. As a dirt rider will tell you this is not a problem, just point the front, look where you want to go and ignore the back. If it does lock and swing right out then keep on the brake until you are back in line or are slow enough to handle the rubber regaining grip.

If you have trained to pull clutch in and stomp down the gears then it will be a simple matter of clutch out and throttle on.

If not then some possiblities:
1. You are totally in the wrong gear and have to pull the clutch in, change down a few cogs and then throttle on.
2. Or the mess in your pants makes you forget you are in the wrong gear and your accellerate away at snails pace, so then you have to make the realisation something is wrong, pull the clutch in, change down a few cogs and finally throttle on.
3. You forget about the back wheel, there are more important things taking your attention at the moment. The back wheel stops and the bike stalls, but that is ok, you release the brake and the bike starts, unless you have stopped in which case you will have pleanty of time to hit the starter, change gear and set off again... well maybee not.

In your pre-planned response automate the initial throttle off, front brake, clutch, light rear brake and change down. This way you can concentrate all your energies in the place with the most stopping power... the front brake. You still gain benefit from your rear brake and gears and without the cost.

jonbuoy
14th November 2006, 13:56
"Also important is the effect of what happens if your rear locks. In reality not a lot"

Depends if your in a completely straight line. The back end will slide out in some instances and try to overtake the front - its happend to me. Seems to be a pretty divided opinion in or out, what I can't get my head around is, if I clutch in from 100k's and coast I don't slow down very fast, if I shut the throttle I stop a lot faster. So why would pulling the clutch in under heavy braking make me stop quicker, until the very last bit where I might stall the engine.

XP@
14th November 2006, 15:17
"Also important is the effect of what happens if your rear locks. In reality not a lot"

Depends if your in a completely straight line. The back end will slide out in some instances and try to overtake the front - its happend to me. Seems to be a pretty divided opinion in or out, what I can't get my head around is, if I clutch in from 100k's and coast I don't slow down very fast, if I shut the throttle I stop a lot faster. So why would pulling the clutch in under heavy braking make me stop quicker, until the very last bit where I might stall the engine.

In a maximum effort stop you will always be in a straight line, well according to your direction of travel and front wheel. Your back tyre will stay mostly behind, just practice the light touch! But if you do start to get out of shape and you don't have the ability to correct it, then forget about it and concentrate on stopping with your front brake. Whilst it is preferable it is not essential to keep your wheels in line and we are talking about "brown trou" moments here ;-) so stopping is the key.

Pulling the cluch in won't make that much difference in terms of the physics, just make sure you are a bit lighter on the rear brake. Where it does make the difference is indirectly allowing you to maximise your attention on getting the front brake on and keeping it at the point just before locking. Having to keep part of your attention on the rev's and then divert most of your attention to pull the clutch at some undefined point going to add distance to your stop.

Also, where clutch fingers when you are braking? If they are still round the bar then how the hell are you going to be able to unwrap them and place them on the lever under braking?
The other option is thay are covering the lever, in which case they have not been doing a very good job at holding the bars.

I guess my point is, you only have so much attention so use it where it really matters and the faster you will stop.

jonbuoy
14th November 2006, 15:30
I cover the clutch at all times with two fingers, three on the bars, I've never needed any more. Depends on what was hapening as to being in a straight line or not. It would be 50/50 - you might be on a slight bend at the time of braking. Or have started to turn around the object before deciding you have to brake.

sinned
14th November 2006, 16:57
I just spent all day Sunday on a Roadsafe course Advanced/Refresher and we did plenty of practice braking. Had the back wheel well up on one stop and was told that wasn't the aim of the exercise. This was same same course MyGSXF did a week or so before and reading what XP@ wrote in post #87 must have learnt from the same master. I know that I need to do a lot of practice to get to the stage where I can emergency brake in a real emergency and do everything right automatically. We were taught these steps: close throttle, front brake - lightly squeeze to settle the front then squeeze, clutch in, rear on lightly, tap down the gears as nearing a stop. This way the engine won't stall, you have a gear for a fast escape and maximum possible speed reduction. Also all fingers on the levers for a road bike - other finger rules may apply to trial, and off roaders.

Toaster
14th November 2006, 20:05
my deepest respect for the family, for allowing their sons accident to be used as a training tool.. to help prevent further unnecessary loss!

I agree.... obviously we have learned/been reminded of an important skill in safe riding.

FROSTY
14th November 2006, 20:16
bejeezus --Now this is the down side of internet forums--instead of getting ya ass out there and practicing yer sitting here frigging reading this stuff.
For gosh sakes get out there in a quiet place and practice.

sinned
15th November 2006, 20:57
bejeezus --Now this is the down side of internet forums--instead of getting ya ass out there and practicing yer sitting here frigging reading this stuff.
For gosh sakes get out there in a quiet place and practice.
Frosty - you sure shut down this thread. No posts for 24 hours. Well I have just spent an hour practicing stopping and slow handling skills - I am feeling pretty good about that. But I still love the forum - addicted to the internet.
:yes:

MyGSXF
15th November 2006, 21:04
Well I have just spent an hour practicing stopping and slow handling skills - I am feeling pretty good about that.

Awesome to hear you did the Roadsafe course dennisr..!!! :Punk: & going out practicing!!!! :niceone: Andrew & Lynne are fantastic aye.. a bloody wealth of knowledge!!!!!! :yes:

[/QUOTE] But I still love the forum - addicted to the internet:yes:[/QUOTE]

hell yes.. I thoroughly agree... mee too... :shutup:

Jen:rockon:

jonbuoy
15th November 2006, 21:52
bejeezus --Now this is the down side of internet forums--instead of getting ya ass out there and practicing yer sitting here frigging reading this stuff.
For gosh sakes get out there in a quiet place and practice.

Don't get you there frosty. This is one of the few topics on KB that is actually about riding, and a pretty important one. Different people have been taught different ways of emergency braking. Were discussing it. Pretty hard to prove without timing lights which one is the best.

XP@
16th November 2006, 08:12
bejeezus --Now this is the down side of internet forums--instead of getting ya ass out there and practicing yer sitting here frigging reading this stuff.
For gosh sakes get out there in a quiet place and practice.

Ok, done the practice, now can we get back to the real business of key bashing.

From the small sample of tests I did last night (from 100kph) I could see little difference between clutch in or out, as long as I adjusted the pressure on the rear to suit.

The Stranger
16th November 2006, 08:20
Don't get you there frosty. This is one of the few topics on KB that is actually about riding, and a pretty important one. Different people have been taught different ways of emergency braking. Were discussing it. Pretty hard to prove without timing lights which one is the best.

We set up cones (cheep as chips from the warehouse) at 4m centres (about a car length) in a line.
Brake from the same speed each run at the first cone.
Try different techniques on each run and see what works the best.

Participating in and watching 100s of these I know which technique will work best.

XP@
16th November 2006, 13:25
Participating in and watching 100s of these I know which technique will work best.

This study recommends pulling the clutch but not changing down...
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

One thing I did notice myself doing last night, when practicing, was "forgetting" to downshift when I was trying really hard. But as I had prepared to start shifting down I could sort the right cog out easily as I stopped. and I guess if you don't stop then what gear you are in is pretty academic.

Biff
17th November 2006, 12:43
No, the reason to ignore the clutch is not for the sake of engine breaking.

A Factual Yes. We were clearly advised not pull in the clutch during a 'holy shit!', 100% anchors on, emergency stop, in order to benefit from the bike's engine breaking properties....amongst other things. This was implicitly stated. It's not my interpretation of what was said/taught, and it was also printed in the accompanying course material.


I agree with you on the inherent risks associated with declutching during heavy braking, which could result in locking up a back wheel. But to me these are complimentary factors to be considered when deciding whether or not to engage the clutch - not ' in fact the exact opposite'..s.

'What more would engine breaking add?' - A couple of milliseconds/seconds/metres?


This study recommends pulling the clutch but not changing down...
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf



Apparently not according to the above?

Now I'm confused.

More practice needed me thinks. And a measuring tape.

Ixion
17th November 2006, 16:32
..
'What more would engine breaking add?' - A couple of milliseconds/seconds/metres?
..

But the rear tyre can only apply a certain (limited) deceleration. Put more g force through it than that and the wheel will lock (tyre lose traction). And, modern brakes can easily exceed that limit from almost any speed. (especially with the rear being light under front brake).

So if you are pressing the brake pedal hard enough to reach the limit of the tyre's traction, adding engine braking (extra force) will cause the wheel to lock. Which you must then compensate for by applying less brake pedal. So all you are doing to transferring the braking force from the brake disk to the clutch disk. You can't increase the tyre's traction capability by engine braking.

Of course, this assumes modern brakes. On the old Briddish clunkers with 5 inch SLS brakes any assistance was a good idea

EDIT. Of course, transferring the braking force from the brake disk to the clutch disk is a GoodIdea, because otherwise, as the rear end gets progressively lighter ,a dn speed decreases, unless you are VERY clever at gradually lessening back on the brake pedal , you will lock the rear wheel. Whereas if some of the braking is coming from the engine, since it slows down as speed slows , there is less likelihood of that ock up. But the advantage is extra stability , not extra braking. The pedal alone would give you as much braking as the tyre can handle.

Mom
17th November 2006, 16:44
The objective is to stop as quickly & safely as possible.. using BOTH brakes & without locking the wheels, falling or stalling.

Control is lost as soon as wheel STOPS rolling.. so if you lock the wheel - release the brake & re-apply progressively.


One of the MOST important things is: to look UP & FORWARDS.. if you look down.. you will go down!!! (where ever you LOOK.. is where you will go!)



What she said!........good words Jen.........front brake is my first brake of choice, the rear for control........:yes:

Practice on wet surfaces too though, that can make a difference specially if there is any paint around!

Disco Dan
20th November 2006, 11:25
We set up cones (cheep as chips from the warehouse) at 4m centres (about a car length) in a line.
Brake from the same speed each run at the first cone.
Try different techniques on each run and see what works the best.

Participating in and watching 100s of these I know which technique will work best.

Thanks again CaN for the RRRS training... been out practicing locking my rear and finding out the different pressure i need to keep it moving when under heavy breaking on the front!

...sooo much conflicting information on here, i agree with FROSTY; get out there and practice! even if you dont have cones, get some chalk or something and practice braking quickly... see what works better etc.

*driveway covered in little black skid marks*

XP@
20th November 2006, 12:37
BuckBuck01 has had the idea to do some training vids...

I would like to have a go at busting some stopping myths.
Anyone interested (in the wellington area) in getting a camera (I don't have one) some cones, a tape measure and some bikes.

Then busting the myths in this thread?

Would make a nice & useful addition to youTube.

Disco Dan
20th November 2006, 14:05
good stuff :yes:

be good to see some 'scientific' experiements taking place... :Punk:

idontknow
18th December 2006, 20:00
I was reading another forum and found this http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3709 which relates well

sinned
20th December 2006, 20:34
I was reading another forum and found this http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3709 which relates well
I am not sure what value this adds but has given a few with mathematical skills superior to mine the opportunity of displaying how smart they are. I think the key benefit from sucking the clutch in is that the motor will not stall (ie will keep running) and if in the less than 3 secs from a howling stop from 80 - 120k you can tap the gears down to first you will have engine running and gear to escape in. Escape??? - that will be after your nuts have emerged and eyes stopped watering.

The Stranger
21st December 2006, 08:26
I am not sure what value this adds but has given a few with mathematical skills superior to mine the opportunity of displaying how smart they are. I think the key benefit from sucking the clutch in is that the motor will not stall (ie will keep running) and if in the less than 3 secs from a howling stop from 80 - 120k you can tap the gears down to first you will have engine running and gear to escape in. Escape??? - that will be after your nuts have emerged and eyes stopped watering.

Um, didn't they say the key benefit is that with the clutch in you are not trying to brake the engine as well, thus more braking to the wheels.

Found the study interesting for several reasons.
1) They state "We retained the services of eight experienced riders"
2) The bikes were "equipped with outriggers"
3) They did 820 tests of which 298 tests met the criteria.
4) Data collection on the bikes was via a "full-Size Macintosh G4/867 computer carried on board the motorcycle"

So if we look a little further at this.
1) Most bikes do not have outriggers thus can not afford to throw caution to the wind. The wheels of a bike are a gyroscope. Lock one wheel in a straight line and you still have a gyroscope to assist you to stay upright. Lock both and the odds of staying up decrease (as well as braking effectiveness decreasing). I can't quite reconcile getting on the rear first still. The rear of the GSXR is already skipping under heavy front braking, just touching the rear at all locks it, thus I loose both the anchor effect to help keep my path of travel straight and the gyroscopic benefit of the rear. Not saying, don't touch the rear. But personally I will still be getting the front working as best I can first so as the rear doesn't lock as it unloads.

2) Despite using eight "experienced" riders they discarded 522 of the 820 tests. What? Like there is an emergency, you go under the Mack truck, so you lift the truck off and go - oh hold on, that one didn't count, I want another shot.
Me wonders if the sequence is that difficult for experienced riders if it should not be amended to account for less experienced (normal) riders.

3) They had a full size Macintosh computer, in a protective enclosure sitting behind the rider. Now say 15kg for a computer - but see the size of the enclosure, possibly all up 40kg. Not only this it is rear of the rear axle, thus multiplying the weight to some degree. Of course the rear brake is going to show an effect. I am bloody sure that an extra 30-50kg of weight, securely fixed over my rear axle would allow me to get benefit from the rear brake too.

Ixion
21st December 2006, 09:00
Well, the statistical basis of that report seems very dubious, since they appear to have selected the results they wanted and discarded those which did not suit their theories.

The situation also does not relate to the real world.

If I had outriggers also, I would be less concerned about locking the rear wheel. However , in the real world, the issue of back wheel lock up is a real one. It's easy to do, and once locked you have to leave it locked, or risk a high side.

Which is why some riders say don't use the rear at all. But, the effect of the rear brake IS important in that first part second, before the front has time to start deceleration (the first part second of front brake just compresses the suspension). So not using it loses valuable braking effort.

Overall, the experiment offered is irrelevant to the real world. The riders in the experiment did not have to worry about losing control. In the real world , loss of control is the second most important thing the rider must be concerned with (the first, of couse, being not hitting the obstacle).

A locked rear wheel means loss of control. Lost control means, possibly a crash in its own right (high side if you release the wheel, low side if you leave it locked). More importantly, with the rear locked, you lose the ability to switch from braking to dodging if the opportunity arises (car pulls out in front of you, brake, then go round behind him, for instance).

So in the real world, you want to not lock the rear if possible. But that's quite hard . Leaving the clutch engaged helps avoid rear wheel lock up.

(If you do lock it, leave it locked. Better some fishtailing than a high side) .

I think we may take a lesson from the racing world. Racers are very interested in braking as hard as possible ,without losing control. I never heard of any racer who declutched while braking (except for gear changing, obviously). If declutching reduced braking times, I'm sure racers would do it.

sinned
21st December 2006, 13:54
There is a difference between race braking, fast or hard stop and a panic stop. A panic stop is unplanned and unexpected and to add to the stress when the anchors come on you may not know if you can stop in the distance to that car/truck/horse etc. If your normally stopping action is to use the rear brake then that is probably what you will do without thinking. I am practicing using just the front brake except I use the rear for low speed control and hopefully if I am ever in the panic situation I will not lock the rear as it will not be in my automatic reflex action to initially use it. It sounds great in theory to apply both brakes firmly and then ease of the rear as the back lightens and this probably works well on the track where the rider is focused on one thing and every action is planned. Different to cruising down the road observing the scenery and thinking of sex. :love:

The Stranger
21st December 2006, 14:14
If your normally stopping action is to use the rear brake then that is probably what you will do without thinking. I am practicing using just the front brake.

That really is a point which is not sometimes so obvious but is important to ALL riders new and old. Older riders tend to let bad habit creap back in, they become comfortable and complacent. You see this with the accident stats.

In an emergency you will rely upon instinct. If for example you cover the brake with 2 fingers, in an emargency you will use 2 fingers on the brake.

So when on a motorcycle, think motorcycle and focus on doing things correctly for a motorcycle at all times so as it become habitual.

terbang
21st December 2006, 14:45
1) was told by a friend of mine to imagine your "landing an aeroplane". Begin loading the back then just after load up the front, with your bike lowering onto suspension at an angle - hence the landing part!


Can't help myself but planes don't have front brakes...!


Concentrate on the front first.
Squeeze, wait for weight transfer then apply more pressure. You are aiming for a point just before lock up.

If you just grab and don't wait for the weight to transfer it is more likely to lock.

Next apply the rear.

On a sport bike it is often of no use using the rear because you will have so much weight on the front even a light touch will lock it up. If the clutch is out (as it should) you will have the benefit of engine braking on the rear.

If you apply rear first
1) You loose time on the most effective brake
2) As you do apply the front and the weight transfers the rear unloads and starts to skid, thus reducing it's effectiveness.

If you apply them at the same time, see 2 above.

So to summarise.
Front first.
Allow weight to transfer and get front working at it's most efficient.
Apply rear if you will get anything out of it.
Eyes up and ahead. After watching hundreds of emergency braking sessions you soon see, the ones who look down head that way.

Perfect in my view and I have often heard the initial "Squeeze" that CaN is talking about, referred to as a setup. It takes up the slack of the suspension and brakes and starts transferring the weight toward the front.

When riding on the road and if unsure of the outcome of the cage situation ahead that is perhaps looking a bit dodgey I will do a little setup as a precaution. The added advantage of this is that your brake light illuminates for anyone who is following behind giving a fair warning of a possible quick stop.

ManDownUnder
21st December 2006, 14:52
I can't quite reconcile getting on the rear first still. The rear of the GSXR is already skipping under heavy front braking, just touching the rear at all locks it, thus I loose both the anchor effect to help keep my path of travel straight and the gyroscopic benefit of the rear. Not saying, don't touch the rear. But personally I will still be getting the front working as best I can first so as the rear doesn't lock as it unloads.



My understanding is the rear brake loads up the rear shock(s) causing the bike to squat, lower the centre of gravity.

This in turn reduces the bikes inclination to lift the rear off the ground (i.e. stoppie).

That being said I don't practice (either rehearse or actually do) putting the rear brake on first. It goes on at the same time at the front under emergency stop conditions. I know that I throw enough weight on the front wheel to considerably (or totally) take the weight off the rear and it drifts left and right as it skids. It has locked up but provides bog all traction anyway so I figure it's no great loss.

The weight, braking and grip of the front tire does almost all the work when stopping as fast as I can, but how it gets to that point I can honestly say I haven't stopped to analyse (that I can recall anyway).

That's not to say what I'm doing is right. It is simply what I do after quite a while in the saddle and I can stop nearly as well as anyone I know.

I'm always open to pointers of course

terbang
21st December 2006, 15:05
Its a 'Horses for courses" thing really.
I once saw a magazine article that had comparison of stopping distances for various bikes and to my dismay it was the big heavy cruiser types that were doing well. The low CofG and length of cruisers tends to stop them pivoting up over the front axle (stoppie) which is the limiting factor on a sportsbike.
First thing my american mate said to me when fiitting me up on his spare harley was. 'Learn to use the back brake boy, its not like that sprot thing you have'. He was right it did stop well, though I still used the front first, I could also use the rear to much greater effect than on my own bike.