Transit Tolls on Western Ring Route

[ManDownUnder]

Details here (http://www.transit.govt.nz/projects/wrrconsultation).

In short
1) They want to build tolled roads around the place
2) They keep the tolls in place for 35 years until the money they borrow is paid back
3) Up to 50% of the money collected through tolls goes in admin fees (per yesterday's NZ Herald)
4) They intend to put in ramp signalling at all interchanges (WHY IN GOD'S NAME DO THAT. Ever used the one in Mangere?
5) Off peak tolls are between 50 and 75% of peak tolls. (I thought they were only going to toll for peak times... )

At least it'll be painless... tui anyone?

[Whynot]

why not use some of the 11.5 billion surplus to pay for it ?

If they toll it i will definately be going the other way ...

[Keystone19]

I don't like the idea.

Living on the Peninsula means that to get anywhere we are pretty much forced to pay the tolls. There is little choice but to get on the motorway to go anywhere.

[Squeak the Rat]

I'm a bit on the fence with this one. One one hand the road is needed and the people most affected can choose to use or not. On the other hand, new roads don't just affect the people who use them, they also affect the whole community. Eg the drivers on the old roads get a better run, goods get delivered to businesses quicker, more cars can get on the road therefore allowing more growth in the city etc etc.

Tolling a road for say 10 years seems reasonable. But 35 years? Faaark. Pay for some of it with tolls and some from the stash.

[The Stranger]

Details here (http://www.transit.govt.nz/projects/wrrconsultation).

In short
1) They want to build tolled roads around the place
2) They keep the tolls in place for 35 years until the money they borrow is paid back
3) Up to 50% of the money collected through tolls goes in admin fees (per yesterday's NZ Herald)
4) They intend to put in ramp signalling at all interchanges (WHY IN GOD'S NAME DO THAT. Ever used the one in Mangere?
5) Off peak tolls are between 50 and 75% of peak tolls. (I thought they were only going to toll for peak times... )

At least it'll be painless... tui anyone?

So let me get this straight.

They are going to "borrow" the money off of us to build it then once we have paid for it again (plus admin) they will stop charging us?

Damn, I have to get in on this lark.

[Ixion]

What is WRONG however is that they propose to toll the existing motorway that runs from Manukau to Onehunga. That road already exists. Its been paid for . How do they justify tolling that? And , given that precedent, how long before almost every road is tolled?

And their claims of journey reduction times are a cheat. The times are less because of ramp monitoring. Of course if you only let a few vehicles on the motorway the motorway time will be less. But they're not including the hours spent queued up waiting to get onto the motorway in the first place. Ramp monitoring is a disaster.

[twinkle]

The 50% admin is a bit much :angry:

[The Stranger]

The 50% admin is a bit much :angry:

No, you can never have too much administration.
Don't forget you also need to allow for at least 5 name changes in this time, complete with new letter heads, business cards, vehicle signage etc.
All very important you know.

[twinkle]

The onramp at lincoln road has Traffic lights, as does TeAtatu (though they aren't there directly contol onramp traffic). Traffic banks up for quite a way on the surrounding roads. I can just imagine the gridlock that would result if all the cars could go straight onto the motorway :gob:

:edit: but then again don't most onramps already have this in some form?

[slimjim]

:scooter: yup will suck for us outoftowner's too, we stop and buy a card ?, or wait til the fine comes through in the mail,:sick: , gee only go up that way for the toy run's:innocent: now be adding an extra what $10.00 bucks for tolls?abit fucking sad Aucklander's,,:done: :shutup: :zzzz: :bye:

[Swoop]

No, you can never have too much administration.
Don't forget you also need to allow for at least 5 name changes in this time, complete with new letter heads, business cards, vehicle signage etc.
All very important you know.
Don't forget the all important consultation with local Iwi...

I wonder how many Taniwhas are around that way:whistle:

[bakeha]

Just got an email back from Transit

"Transit's concept for the Western Ring Route is based on tolling Motorcycles at the same rate as Motor Vehicles at this stage."

[Deano]

At least the rest of the country won't be paying for your roads.

If x amount of $$ of the 'stash' were to be used, then 2 times that amount should be spent on roads in other areas.

(Slight p/t)

[Buster]

Just got an email back from Transit

"Transit's concept for the Western Ring Route is based on tolling Motorcycles at the same rate as Motor Vehicles at this stage."

Your fucking kidding me right?

[Whynot]

Don't forget the all important consultation with local Iwi...

I wonder how many Taniwhas are around that way:whistle:

shouldn't be too many left, the westies should have hunted them all down by now ... :2guns:

[Whynot]

Just got an email back from Transit

"Transit's concept for the Western Ring Route is based on tolling Motorcycles at the same rate as Motor Vehicles at this stage."

Transit are a bunch of fucking plonkers.

[Swoop]

Just got an email back from Transit

"Transit's concept for the Western Ring Route is based on tolling Motorcycles at the same rate as Motor Vehicles at this stage."
That isn't going to happen... not on the bike I will be riding at the time.

I can see quite a bit of fun from toll roads really...:whistle:

[twinkle]

shouldn't be too many left, the westies should have hunted them all down by now ... :2guns:

If one shows up we'll hunt the fucker down pretty quick :yes:

[Squeak the Rat]

Remember, no submission no whinge!

[bakeha]

You can give feedback to Transit by filling out the following form:

http://www.transit.govt.nz/projects/wrrconsultation/response/index.jsp

Bikes shouldn't be tolled more than half of what cars are. Preferably not at all!

[MattRSK]

viva la revoloution!

[MattRSK]

Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.
It's a
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

[MattRSK]

Don't just call me pessimist. Try and read between the lines. I can't imagine why you wouldn't Welcome any change, my friend. I wanna see it all come down.

[BM-GS]

Thin end of the wedge. I'm against tolling in general, and that which presecutes traffic-friendly modes of transport (bikes) as much as the tin-boxes, in particular. Once this starts, tolling will be *everywhere* in 5 years. And the local roads will be jammed with people who object to paying even more tax to get from A to B. This won't stop in Auckland, or even just in the big cities. The technology is there & proven, so we can't even all rock up to the toll booth at once and try to pay with a $20 each (thik about it, it'll take weeks to get your gloves off, fiddle around, count the change & move off). At least they've tried to make the actual payment as painless as possible, even if the concept sucks.

The real gems were the 35 year duration and the CPI-equivalent increases in tolls untill opening day then CPI+2% after that. Since 40% is going on their corporate coffee and offices with sea views, they can whistle.

In the glossy, they're really careful to say that they won't be tolling the Harbour bridge or SH1 through AKL, to give people an alternative route. The thing is that you known that *will* happen, but it'll be called a congestion charge, not road funding. Political waffle & obfuscation, again.

They need to start dangling the carrot of decent, integrated, public transport before beating people with the stick of paying more money. ARTA say that's what they're trying to achieve, but do they have the clot to make it happen? I doubt it.

What they says above: no submission, no winge.

[Whynot]

Don't just call me pessimist. Try and read between the lines. I can't imagine why you wouldn't Welcome any change, my friend. I wanna see it all come down.

Learn to swim

[MattRSK]

Learn to swim

Haha good shit! Enema

[Squeak the Rat]

Don't just call me pessimist. Try and read between the lines. I can't imagine why you wouldn't Welcome any change, my friend. I wanna see it all come down.
Keep the thread on track and for gods sake seek help.

[MattRSK]

Keep the thread on track and for gods sake seek help.

Ah yes, i seem to take threads off track quite easily. Its a music thing. If i had Eddie Vedders phone number I would seek help. Back to it.

Toll Roads would be good if they payed for the road and a bit of future maintenance. Nothing else.

[Whynot]

This is a bit stupid too ....

"However, Waitakere mayor Bob Harvey says it is bizarre to build a "hot lane" right through Waitakere with on and off ramps in Hobsonville and Avondale.
He says between those two points, a city of 180,000 people has no access to the hot lane and will have to sit in dense traffic."

are there really going to be no off ramps between Hobsonville and Avondale ???
what the hell ?

from here
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=105493

[Swoop]

Scathing submission made!

What is the fu*king stupid idea of putting toll collection points on the existing sections of motorway??? This whole concept is to fund the uncompleted "new" sections of a ring road, not to tax us for roads we have already paid for!:angry: :angry: :angry:

[/rant]

[MattRSK]

Life in a bubble baby.

[ManDownUnder]

The 50% admin is a bit much :angry:

Yeah - that's the bit that gets me too. Lets say they bowwor 2 billion 9and I think that's about right)... that means they collect 2 Billion + interest in tolling admin fees... on top of the 2billion + interest they have to pay back.

Remind me how 8 or 9 tolling points cost $2 billion + interest to run for 35 years?

or... assuming an interest rater of 6% (conservative) that's a grand total of 57 million a year to run... the toll booths.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAA??? They've been going to the Michalen Cullen school of taxation

[ManDownUnder]

I don't like the idea.

Living on the Peninsula means that to get anywhere we are pretty much forced to pay the tolls. There is little choice but to get on the motorway to go anywhere.

Take a look at the map and you'll find there are non tolled lanes on the NW you can use too (2 each way, with an additional 1 lane tolled each way)

[ManDownUnder]

One more point to add.

I note they mention it means this work will be done by 2015 instead of the scheduled 2030

But it also means we're paying for it until 2035, instead of 2030.

Again - why is this a good thing?

[Drum]

Many people think that when you put a toll on a road, then some huge percentage of people take the alternate route through shopping centres, past kindergartens and down quiet back streets (incidentally, this is called rat-running in traffic lingo).

In practice, this is not the case. Sure, some people will take the alternate route. But in other big cities around the world, experience shows that most people will "happily" pay tolls to get where theyre going. Tolls are a fact of life if you want to live in a big city.

But just to display my bias - BIKES SHOULD NOT BE TOLLED

[Swoop]

Many people think that when you put a toll on a road, then some huge percentage of people take the alternate route through shopping centres, past kindergartens and down quiet back streets (incidentally, this is called rat-running in traffic lingo).

In practice, this is not the case. Sure, some people will take the alternate route. But in other big cities around the world, experience shows that most people will "happily" pay tolls to get where theyre going. Tolls are a fact of life if you want to live in a big city.
Did you see the article on TV3 news about the Sydney tunnel?
Most are avoiding it because of the toll. Others were shown driving around barriers to avoid paying.

[ManDownUnder]

Many people think that when you put a toll on a road, then some huge percentage of people take the alternate route through shopping centres, past kindergartens and down quiet back streets (incidentally, this is called rat-running in traffic lingo).

In practice, this is not the case. Sure, some people will take the alternate route. But in other big cities around the world, experience shows that most people will "happily" pay tolls to get where theyre going. Tolls are a fact of life if you want to live in a big city.

But just to display my bias - BIKES SHOULD NOT BE TOLLED

Yeah - I've been in and seen a lot of big cities around the world whgere tolls are a way of life... and that's why I don;t believe them when they say they'll lift the tolls after 35 years.

No way jose - they're profitable and the tolls will stay!

[Ixion]

Take a look at the map and you'll find there are non tolled lanes on the NW you can use too (2 each way, with an additional 1 lane tolled each way)

BUT - There is NO non tolled lanes on the Manukau - Onehunga section . Or on the Greenhithe bridge section. Both existing roads which are to be tolled. And neither of them have *sensible* alternatives. Except SH1/Harbour Bridge.

[ManDownUnder]

BUT - There is NO non tolled lanes on the Manukau - Onehunga section . Or on the Greenhithe bridge section. Both existing roads which are to be tolled. And neither of them have *sensible* alternatives. Except SH1/Harbour Bridge.

The Greenhithe section can be gone around if you take the Coatseville Riverhead Hwy. A long way but a lot of fun.

I hear you though - and agree...

[Dai]

..

But just to display my bias - BIKES SHOULD NOT BE TOLLED

They tried to toll bikes in the UK in two places that I know of.

The Dartford Tunnel and the new bridge on the Severn River.

Both times thousands of bikes all showed up at the same time. All in complete wet weather gear. Everyone had a 10 pound note in their wallet in the pants pocket. Toll was about 3 pound.

Each bike carefully pulled up, got off their bike, took of their waterproofs, got out the money, waited for change, got re dressed in kit, and drove off. Next bike repeated the proceedure. This was at every booth. Traffic jams were both massive but nothing they could do as we were acting within the law and our conduct was restrained and polite.

The next day at both places there were no tolls for motorbikes.

Would work here if it could be organised

[ManDownUnder]

They tried to toll bikes in the UK in two places that I know of.

The Dartford Tunnel and the new bridge on the Severn River.

Both times thousands of bikes all showed up at the same time. All in complete wet weather gear. Everyone had a 10 pound note in their wallet in the pants pocket. Toll was about 3 pound.

Each bike carefully pulled up, got off their bike, took of their waterproofs, got out the money, waited for change, got re dressed in kit, and drove off. Next bike repeated the proceedure. This was at every booth. Traffic jams were both massive but nothing they could do as we were acting within the law and our conduct was restrained and polite.

The next day at both places there were no tolls for motorbikes.

Would work here if it could be organised

Count me in! We'll need to do a couple of laps going through all the tolled ring roads... but yes - count me in!

[Drum]

Did you see the article on TV3 news about the Sydney tunnel?
Most are avoiding it because of the toll. Others were shown driving around barriers to avoid paying.

No, didnt see the article on TV3 - but the alternative to the tunnel is the bridge - not a series of quiet back streets - so whats the problem?

And if people can drive around the barriers then the design isnt too flash. From memory, those barriers are bloody hard to drive around, and the whole area has cameras.

When I was using the Sydney tunnel everyday, a milk token would also activate the automatic booms - at half the price! They must've had a lot of milk in their smoko room I reckon!

[Karma]

Count me in! We'll need to do a couple of laps going through all the tolled ring roads... but yes - count me in!

+1

:rockon:

[sAsLEX]

Ramp monitoring is a disaster.

But it is used so well in every other country that uses it!




P/T

[ManDownUnder]

I can see it now... the first ever KB ride organised down a motorway... and at 5:10pm on a weeknight. I love it.

A fine example of the system being used to fuck itself.

[Drum]

But it is used so well in every other country that uses it!




P/T

It actually works very well in several US cities.

If it didnt work anywhere, do you really think that they would consider it here?

Transit never uses anything that hasnt worked somewhere overseas!

[Jonny Rotten]

i think your all missing the big picture here......


how do i get the change for the toll booth out of my jacket pocket with my gloves on ?????

[Squeak the Rat]

i think your all missing the big picture here......


how do i get the change for the toll booth out of my jacket pocket with my gloves on ?????

Who says there will be cash stations? You'd think there would need to be but the closest they have come to saying this is that there would be the ability to pay anonomously. If there is a cash option they'd make it a separate lane on an on-ramp so the worst that would happen would be that you'd hold up a lane.....

From the website:


The Electronic Toll Collection System – How tolls would be collected
An Electronic Toll Collection system would be used on the Western Ring Route toll road to ensure that traffic flows smoothly.

Key features of electronic toll collection are that:

Vehicles at each toll point are identified by cameras and/or other equipment
Toll charges are incurred as vehicles pass through each toll point
Vehicles are identified by an image of the vehicle’s licence plate or possibly, for frequent users, by an electronic tag inside the vehicle
Tolls could be paid after travel or by automatically debiting an established account.

[ManDownUnder]

i think your all missing the big picture here......


how do i get the change for the toll booth out of my jacket pocket with my gloves on ?????

Very very slowly. (See my sig...) I think that's a good thing - no? Imagine 100 bikes doing it, one after the other, Thursday night at 5:10pm

[Karma]

I can see it now... the first ever KB ride organised down a motorway... and at 5:10pm on a weeknight. I love it.

A fine example of the system being used to fuck itself.

Maybe wanna get the media involved at the same time?

[The Pastor]

Im actually building the bit from uhc to the greenhite bridge, don't worry fokes, were in NO hurry to get the damn thing done! The other half of the motorway hasnt even started yet so the road wont be open for another 3-4 years, although they may toll the half we've almost done now, im not sure, but cant bikes just go around the arm barrier anyways?

and for your information, the current roads will still be operating so you don't have to take the toll.

[Ixion]

i think your all missing the big picture here......


how do i get the change for the toll booth out of my jacket pocket with my gloves on ?????

Change ? What change? Sorry , all I have is a $100 note. Can I put it on my credit card ? Do you do EFTPOS ? (Repeat, 100 times)

[Disco Dan]

HATE the idea of tolls :angry:

If they use cameras to ID plates... bikes have plates on the back :innocent:

as for cash...

WE NEED TO ORGANISE A TOLL RUN! all KB bikers go through during rush hour and prove our point!!!! yeah! :done:

[sAsLEX]

If they use cameras to ID plates... bikes have plates on the back :innocent:


Which get rather dirty, and elevated cameras aint seeing them tucked nice and deep in under the wheel, regs only require that they are visible in certain angles to the rear not above

[SARGE]

i live pretty much at the foot of Mt. Roskill where they are building a section of it ..

i think they are digging it with a dessert spoon..

shit man.. that small stretch they have been working on for a year woulda been done in a month back in the States.. all i see is big fat Taro disposal units standing around smoking fags on this dig

[Street Gerbil]

Done. I thought we already paying for road usage at petrol pumps. I don't like double taxation. Besides 50% admin overhead sounds criminal.

[Swoop]

and for your information, the current roads will still be operating so you don't have to take the toll.

Have you had a look at the website and seen where they want to site toll stations?
They are placed on new sections of road AND on existing roads.
The North Western Motorway will have one on Pollen Island - the main motorway area that has been in use since the 1960's... one which the taxpayer has paid for already.

[Ixion]

There are also two toll stations shown on the Southern motorway. What's with that ?

[The Pastor]

Have you had a look at the website and seen where they want to site toll stations?
They are placed on new sections of road AND on existing roads.
The North Western Motorway will have one on Pollen Island - the main motorway area that has been in use since the 1960's... one which the taxpayer has paid for already.


No, that map is small scale, the're are 2 roads where the one is showen.

Edit Sorry bro I thought you where talking about the new UHC motorway that im building, my bad.

If you look closely the little grey road is the current road and will remain open, usally when they toll a road, its not the only way to a place, so I find it hard to belive that you have to go through a certian toll.

[Ixion]

Yes, but they're both going to be tolled. take a look at the 'alternatives" they reccomend.

[ManDownUnder]

Maybe wanna get the media involved at the same time?

Hell yes! Anyone know a producer or reporter in at TVNZ and 3?

[Maverick]

Hell yes! Anyone know a producer or reporter in at TVNZ and 3?

Talk to McJim,

[ManDownUnder]

Talk to McJim,

Ta.

Of interest, I emailed Transit asking for the position on tolling of bikes - I'm waiting to hear what they say.

[Wolf]

Maybe wanna get the media involved at the same time?
You get 100 or so bikes blocking the toll booth and taking their sweet time getting the 100-dollar bills out of their jeans pockets (under the bib-front waterproof leggings), the media will take care of themselves...

[MattRSK]

I would make a special trip just to do that. I love taking the piss!

[crashe]

Ok its a friday...... and I just aint getting this toll/untoll/partially tolled stuff.

Can someone explain it in Layman's term's what it is all about....

If they want to toll us at certain points it is going to cause a huge congestion and they will cause a hell of a gridlock...... more so than what we have now... Is that correct?

On the map on Upper Harbour Rd there is two points marked off for toll.
Does that mean giving up dosh twice on the same road?

So for me getting into the city from Te Atatu on the motorway I am going to be partially tolled !
So from Te Atatu to Pt Chev I will be penalised.
Plus from Te Atatu to Westgate I will be partially tolled and penalised
What the hell is partially tolled?

I can see I and many others will be riding/driving around all the suburbs to get anywhere... gee more congested roads.

Thanks in advance to all serious answers back to me.

[R6_kid]

Well my '45 minute trip' to work already takes me 30mins, took me 20mins the other day and the traffic was the same each day - just that i had different levels of urgency.

Guess its time to start practicing my ghostrider lane-splitting wheelies, and bending the rules with the number plate placement thing.

Tolling bikes... what for? We dont slow down traffic, traffic slows us down.
(Im not hung like a horse, horses are hung like me)

If this does go ahead then count me in for any pisstake ride.

[ManDownUnder]

Blow by blow breakdown for ya


If they want to toll us at certain points it is going to cause a huge congestion and they will cause a hell of a gridlock...... more so than what we have now... Is that correct?

Sort of. They're building more lanes onto the existing roads, and they're building some new roads to complete the western ring route. To pay for this they're erecting payment mechanisms which (if internatonal trends hold true) will mean you can pay by either:
1) Having an electronic "tag" which automatically gets billed when you pass through (without having to slow down at all)
2) A camera that can read number plates and thereby bill you (again - without slowing down)
3) A bin you can throw some coins into at about 1kph which then raises a barrier arm and lets you proceed
4) A pay station you can hand money or eftpos to a person, do the payment thing and carry on.

The payment option has to be at the choice of the motorist although some incentives are offered for option 1 above (well they are in Texas anyway) as it eases traffic congestion and you get a discount for prepayment

The proposal is for a lot of bikes to choose option 4 - as we are quite entitled to do - and simply use the system... demonstrating how bloody awkward it could be.



On the map on Upper Harbour Rd there is two points marked off for toll.
Does that mean giving up dosh twice on the same road?

Yes - if you are using tolled lanes



So for me getting into the city from Te Atatu on the motorway I am going to be partially tolled !
So from Te Atatu to Pt Chev I will be penalised.

Only if you use the tolled lanes. The NW has 2 free lanes going each way, and 1 tolled lane each way. The idea is that less people will choose to pay the toll and therefore the tolled lane will be faster flowing.



Plus from Te Atatu to Westgate I will be partially tolled and penalised
What the hell is partially tolled?
as above - a couple of free (slow) lanes and a fast/tolled one


I can see I and many others will be riding/driving around all the suburbs to get anywhere... gee more congested roads.

Yup! And an incentive to pay the tolls and (low and behold) put money in transits pockets


Thanks in advance to all serious answers back to me.

No worries

[ManDownUnder]

If this does go ahead then count me in for any pisstake ride.

I honestly think that we get BRONZ, KB and Ulysses behind this on a Thursday afternoon and it'll be an absolute goer.

Mae sure there are a few in there that forget their money so they have to turn back etc LOLOL... (did I say that out loud - coz that's just nasty)

[Dai]

I honestly think that we get BRONZ, KB and Ulysses behind this on a Thursday afternoon and it'll be an absolute goer.

Mae sure there are a few in there that forget their money so they have to turn back etc LOLOL... (did I say that out loud - coz that's just nasty)

Ghandi would be proud..

Not "Civil Disobedience" but "Civil Obedience" managing to screw the system

[Wolf]

...until your registration sticker is marginally thicker than it was in previous vehicle registrations and the toll booths mysteriously vanish but money starts automatically debitting from your bank account every time you use certain roads...


and even more money vanishes from your account if you somehow traverse an arbitrary 1km stretch of open road in less than 36 seconds...


1 minute and 12 seconds in town...

[ManDownUnder]

Ghandi would be proud..

Not "Civil Disobedience" but "Civil Obedience" managing to screw the system

Yup Saul Alinski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky) would be proud... use the rules against themselves to demonstrate their shortcomings.

[ManDownUnder]

...until your registration sticker is marginally thicker than it was in previous vehicle registrations and the toll booths mysteriously vanish but money starts automatically debitting from your bank account every time you use certain roads...


and even more money vanishes from your account if you somehow traverse an arbitrary 1km stretch of road in less than 36 seconds...

We could market one that is cock shaped, vibrates unless you exceed 100kph and sell it to the ladies.

Incentive to not speed???

[crashe]

Mandownunder - Thank you for your serious answer back to me....
Much appreciated.......


I wonder if they will take a eftpos card..... hehehehe.

Shite to have carry all those coins... oh dear I can see I will be holding up traffic for ages whilst I turn off my bike, get off my bike to take off my gloves, undo my jacket, then undo my bike pants to get to my jeans to access my pocket to discover buggar I dont have enough coins in my pocket...... oh buggar. Then go to my back pocket and take out my wallet and say oh do you take eftpos?
Then to do up my bike pants and then redo up my bike jacket...... put on my gloves again, get on my bike and turn it on......

ok there goes 5 minutes of holding up the traffic behind me.....
Or I could drag it out to 10 minutes if I really wanted to.

[ManDownUnder]

Mandownunder - Thank you for your serious answer back to me....
Much appreciated.......


I wonder if they will take a eftpos card..... hehehehe.

Shite to have carry all those coins... oh dear I can see I will be holding up traffic for ages whilst I turn off my bike, get off my bike to take off my gloves, undo my jacket, then undo my bike pants to get to my jeans to access my pocket to discover buggar I dont have enough coins in my pocket...... oh buggar. Then go to my back pocket and take out my wallet and say oh do you take eftpos?
Then to do up my bike pants and then redo up my bike jacket...... put on my gloves again, get on my bike and turn it on......

ok there goes 5 minutes of holding up the traffic behind me.....
Or I could drag it out to 10 minutes if I really wanted to.

you got it.

[Wolf]

ok there goes 5 minutes of holding up the traffic behind me.....
Or I could drag it out to 10 minutes if I really wanted to.
You could always feign suddenly being "caught short" half way through suiting up and ask them if they have a toilet near the booth - after all, you were planning a much needed rest stop at the next service station and would have made it if they hadn't delayed you with their stupid toll point...

[Ixion]

...until your registration sticker is marginally thicker than it was in previous vehicle registrations and the toll booths mysteriously vanish but money starts automatically debitting from your bank account every time you use certain roads...


and even more money vanishes from your account if you somehow traverse an arbitrary 1km stretch of open road in less than 36 seconds...


1 minute and 12 seconds in town...

I gotta honkin big magnet!

[Wolf]

I gotta honkin big magnet!
So all the chicks tell me. :devil2:







In seriousness: RFID is not fazed by magnets.

[ManDownUnder]

So all the chicks tell me. :devil2:







In seriousness: RFID is not fazed by magnets.

I understand it hates Ali foil though

[sAsLEX]

In seriousness: RFID is not fazed by magnets.

What about immersion in water at 40 fathoms?

[Ixion]

Nope. That won't do it. Mind you, dunno if you'll find many toll booths down there, either.

[Disco Dan]

Just received information in the post on the tolls...

it seems it WILL BE ELECTRONIC and as such, our little plan to hold up the mway will not work...:gob:

cameras mounted above the road, one for each lane, will ID the vehicle by reg plate and for regular users, an electronic ID tag.

there is not a single mention of motorcycles in there though??

dont see how that will work when motobikes only have plate on the back :innocent:

it states

"ALL vehicles would be identified by an image of the vehicles licence plate or possibly by an electronic tag kept in the car (for frequent users)."

:gob:

[Motu]

dont see how that will work when motobikes only have plate on the back :innocent:


That's pretty easy to sort out - just pass a law requiring motorcycles to have a plate on the front.

Done....next?

[sAsLEX]

That's pretty easy to sort out - just pass a law requiring motorcycles to have a plate on the front.

Done....next?

sshhhh they are trying that in NSW/ New Zealand's Traffic rules school


Though they are having issues with their placement, cant have dangerous appendages can you!

There is links to the study they have done that suggests stickers of some sort somewhere here in KB

[Ixion]

No. News flash just in (well, Wednesday night at BRONZ)

The Ozzies have now officially DROPPED the idea of requiring a front number plate on bikes. Just too hard. Off the agenda.

[kro]

Tolls???? good gravy, many moons ago, toll gates on the harbour bridge, and they're thinking about bringing it all back again?. Isn't this a major step backwards?.

[ManDownUnder]

"ALL vehicles would be identified by an image of the vehicles licence plate or possibly by an electronic tag kept in the car (for frequent users)."

:gob:

I can't see them changing the law (nationwide) requiring bikes to have front plates just for Western Ring Road tolls - I'll raise that argument also... injuried to other etc from the front plate.

Re the back plate having a photo taken, what about those bikes with plates up under the tail (i.e. hard to photo from above). That could be a challenge.

Is there anything in the WOF stuff requiring the plate be mounted on the rear of the vehicle (as opposed to having one visible from the rear)? I reckon they'll still need a manual payment booth option, and if/when they do we'll have 'em!

MDU

[Squeak the Rat]

No. News flash just in (well, Wednesday night at BRONZ)

The Ozzies have now officially DROPPED the idea of requiring a front number plate on bikes. Just too hard. Off the agenda.

Thank fuckoola, if the aussies aren't doing it then unless the yanks or the swedes are then we're fine.....

[Disco Dan]

I can't see them changing the law (nationwide) requiring bikes to have front plates just for Western Ring Road tolls - I'll raise that argument also... injuried to other etc from the front plate.

Re the back plate having a photo taken, what about those bikes with plates up under the tail (i.e. hard to photo from above). That could be a challenge.

Is there anything in the WOF stuff requiring the plate be mounted on the rear of the vehicle (as opposed to having one visible from the rear)? I reckon they'll still need a manual payment booth option, and if/when they do we'll have 'em!

MDU

..thats right! they will have to have manned manual pay booth, a long line of bikes even on one of the lanes would be long enough to block whole road further back... ;)

tolls? bring it on.... :rockon: not for long transit!!

[James Deuce]

If it is RFID they don't ticket anyone for going too slowly, despite protestations.

On your morning communte, simply sychronise meeting points with 30 other communting motorcyclists and fan out across all lanes and practice slow riding to work. Do not exceed 15 km/hr.

[Disco Dan]

oh and does anybody have a legal point of view on 100s of bike bottlenecking the mway?

Would be interested to know if any KB police members on here would stop it before it happened?? or be able to anticipate this and somehow keep the traffic flowing when we all arrive??

im not one to go 'above' the law, but just interested to know what would happen?

[ManDownUnder]

oh and does anybody have a legal point of view on 100s of bike bottlenecking the mway?

Would be interested to know if any KB police members on here would stop it before it happened?? or be able to anticipate this and somehow keep the traffic flowing when we all arrive??

im not one to go 'above' the law, but just interested to know what would happen?

I don't know they could do anything... we're simply using the system as it has been designed (and indeed, how we're instructed to use it) in order to highlight a shortcoming in the design.

Gathering with intent to pay a toll?

[ManDownUnder]

I emailed Transit asking if they intend to toll bikes, and if so- how (etags etc will be a pain on a bike).

Their response:
-----Original Message-----
From: Wrrconsultation [mailto:Wrrconsultation@transit.govt.nz (Wrrconsultation@transit.govt.nz)]
Sent: Sunday, 22 October 2006 9:25 p.m.
To: ManDonUnder
Subject: WRR Consultation
Dear Mr Under,
Thank you for your email.
Transit's concept for collecting tolls on the WRR involves electronic tolling possibly using photographs of the numberplate front and rear.

It does not require the vehicle to stop and pay at a booth. The exact details of billing administration are yet to be confirmed, however for regular users a monthly billing system would likely be used.

Kind regards
WRR Consultation Team
Transit New Zealand - A transport system that builds a better New Zealand.

[Pixie]

The tolling will be via radio transponders,not RFID.RFID doesn't work at a great distance.
These systems are already in use all over the world and I seen them in action in Melbourne and Sydney.If you pass through a toll point and don't trigger the equipment (because you don't have a functional transponder ) you get a piccy taken and get a nice letter in the mail at the end of the month.

Of course in NZ if you get fines in the thousands of dollars you might be forgiven them

[James Deuce]

I emailed Transit asking if they intend to toll bikes, and if so- how (etags etc will be a pain on a bike).

Their response:
-----Original Message-----
From: Wrrconsultation [mailto:Wrrconsultation@transit.govt.nz (Wrrconsultation@transit.govt.nz)]
Sent: Sunday, 22 October 2006 9:25 p.m.
To: ManDonUnder
Subject: WRR Consultation
Dear Mr Under,
Thank you for your email.
Transit's concept for collecting tolls on the WRR involves electronic tolling possibly using photographs of the numberplate front and rear.

It does not require the vehicle to stop and pay at a booth. The exact details of billing administration are yet to be confirmed, however for regular users a monthly billing system would likely be used.

Kind regards
WRR Consultation Team
Transit New Zealand - A transport system that builds a better New Zealand.


errr, is it just me or did he not answer your question at all?

Can it be? They've not thought about bikes again?

[sAsLEX]

The tolling will be via radio transponders,not RFID.RFID doesn't work at a great distance.
These systems are already in use all over the world and I seen them in action in Melbourne and Sydney.If you pass through a toll point and don't trigger the equipment (because you don't have a functional transponder ) you get a piccy taken and get a nice letter in the mail at the end of the month.

Of course in NZ if you get fines in the thousands of dollars you might be forgiven them

RFID = radio frequency ID

Transponder = radio transmitter, so same kettle of fish basically, its just the more common use of RFID is passive and require short distances.

[Wolf]

The tolling will be via radio transponders,not RFID.RFID doesn't work at a great distance.
The transponders to which you refer are battery powered RFID units as per the E-ZPass system (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/e-zpass1.htm).

You could still use unpowered RFID chips similar to what is used in supermarkets with current technology: they admit to a 3-metre range on unpowered RFID chips - which (paranoid "don't trust anyone to give you the full story on the state of monitoring technology" mode enabled) probably means they can make you at 9 metres...

Anyway, even 3 metres is quite sufficient for a bottle-neck situation such as a single lane, especially if you get inventive with where you mount your antennas (like across the entire lane so that the vehicle would have to be flying more than 3 metres above the road to be out of range).

[Wolf]

errr, is it just me or did he not answer your question at all?
Nope, it's at least you and I, because I thought the same thing - can't be just a coincidence, really...

[ManDownUnder]

errr, is it just me or did he not answer your question at all?

Can it be? They've not thought about bikes again?

No - it's not you... which is perfect (the situation that is - you're a nice guy but ... well I call you perfect just once then Dover and Maurice get all huffy and they'll never talk to me again...)

Na - if they haven't thoughts about bikes the we let them build the infrastructure (faulty in it's design)... then use it as intended... FREE

Bugger eh?

[Disco Dan]

I emailed Transit asking if they intend to toll bikes, and if so- how (etags etc will be a pain on a bike).

Their response:
-----Original Message-----
From: Wrrconsultation [mailto:Wrrconsultation@transit.govt.nz (Wrrconsultation@transit.govt.nz)]
Sent: Sunday, 22 October 2006 9:25 p.m.
To: ManDonUnder
Subject: WRR Consultation
Dear Mr Under,
Thank you for your email.
Transit's concept for collecting tolls on the WRR involves electronic tolling possibly using photographs of the numberplate front and rear.

It does not require the vehicle to stop and pay at a booth. The exact details of billing administration are yet to be confirmed, however for regular users a monthly billing system would likely be used.

Kind regards
WRR Consultation Team
Transit New Zealand - A transport system that builds a better New Zealand.


Well done! but they did not answer your question????? typical... :angry:

[Ixion]

The Australian experience, after considerable efforts, is that transponders are not practical for bikes (of course, the bike people may not have WANTED them to be practical :whistle:).

They are not waterproof. Nor vibration proof. Mounting is problematic (they are not small). Especially if the owner has multiple vehicles (they aren't cheap, you do NOT want to have to buy one for each vehicle) . And they give up completely on bikes without a battery.

Which is why the Aussies got so anal about wanting bikes to have a front number plate (that and speed cameras :innocent: ).

But they have no given up on the front number plate idea.

Even with transponders I'd think that if you just ran through alongside a cage, the system wouldn't be able to figure that there were two vehicles in the beam.

And with cameras, keep hard to one side and it's bound to miss your rear plate. Assuming of course that a loose flap of ones waterproof overjacket, bungied to the pillion seat, hasn't accidentally flapped down over ones number plate. As can happen if one is careless with ones bungying :innocent:

[ManDownUnder]

And with cameras, keep hard to one side and it's bound to miss your rear plate. Assuming of course that a loose flap of ones waterproof overjacket, bungied to the pillion seat, hasn't accidentally flapped down over ones number plate. As can happen if one is careless with ones bungying :innocent:


Yeah I go to wondering about that one. My bike had hard luggage high mouted on the rear (overhang of 200mm beyond th back of the bike?) and the plate is on the rear guard, about 200mm in from the back of the bike, so unless the camera's on a fairly flat angle they might not be able to bill me at all...

How do I get a rectangular plate instead of the square one? Make the target even smaller LOL :whistle:

[Disco Dan]

The Australian experience, after considerable efforts, is that transponders are not practical for bikes (of course, the bike people may not have WANTED them to be practical :whistle:).

They are not waterproof. Nor vibration proof. Mounting is problematic (they are not small). Especially if the owner has multiple vehicles (they aren't cheap, you do NOT want to have to buy one for each vehicle) . And they give up completely on bikes without a battery.

Which is why the Aussies got so anal about wanting bikes to have a front number plate (that and speed cameras :innocent: ).

But they have no given up on the front number plate idea.

Even with transponders I'd think that if you just ran through alongside a cage, the system wouldn't be able to figure that there were two vehicles in the beam.

And with cameras, keep hard to one side and it's bound to miss your rear plate. Assuming of course that a loose flap of ones waterproof overjacket, bungied to the pillion seat, hasn't accidentally flapped down over ones number plate. As can happen if one is careless with ones bungying :innocent:

i was under the impression (from photo's) that the cameras face forward, towards the road at about 45 degree angle? if so, the would be no need to try and hide rear plate?!?

....i can see this is going to be a big issue... i hope transit has their lawyers on standby for this whole toll issue... :gob:

[ManDownUnder]

i was under the impression (from photo's) that the cameras face forward, towards the road at about 45 degree angle? if so, the would be no need to try and hide rear plate?!?

....i can see this is going to be a big issue... i hope transit has their lawyers on standby for this whole toll issue... :gob:

Yes it is going to be a big issue, but a logistics issue, not a legal one. We will have the optionof paying cash (or eftpos), and we are completely entitled to take that choice.

The fact that (as motorcyclists dressed in wet weather gear) we take a minute or three to access the money is basic logistics. We can do it as fast as we can and still cause a hell of a hold up. It's a shortcoming in the system we're highlighting,..

and a sensible (desirable) outcome is that motorcycles are allowed to go free on the Tollway - or perhaps use a bus lane?

All we need to do is meet up someonewhere at 5:00pm every day, and ride home, through all the toll boths together. It'll be chaos for everyone else wanting to use those booths (and lets face it - it's not going to be too quick for us either...!)

[Disco Dan]

Yes it is going to be a big issue, but a logistics issue, not a legal one. We will have the optionof paying cash (or eftpos), and we are completely entitled to take that choice.

The fact that (as motorcyclists dressed in wet weather gear) we take a minute or three to access the money is basic logistics. We can do it as fast as we can and still cause a hell of a hold up. It's a shortcoming in the system we're highlighting,..

and a sensible (desirable) outcome is that motorcycles are allowed to go free on the Tollway - or perhaps use a bus lane?

All we need to do is meet up someonewhere at 5:00pm every day, and ride home, through all the toll boths together. It'll be chaos for everyone else wanting to use those booths (and lets face it - it's not going to be too quick for us either...!)

thanks for that, ...waiting with anticipation the outcome of all of this!

[ManDownUnder]

Just in:

===
Dear Mr Under,

I apologise for not answering your last query.

Transit's tolling concept is to toll motorcycles at the same rate as cars. However the purpose of the consultation is to recieve input from the community on how they feel about such things.

We look forward to receiving your response form.

Kind regards
WRR Consultation Team
Transit New Zealand - A transport system that builds a better New Zealand.
===

So - the basis of tolling is what - per occupant (buses get charged more, as do full cars?) or by vehicle size? In which case bikes should pay less than cars who pay less than trucks...

??

[sAsLEX]

So - the basis of tolling is what - per occupant (buses get charged more, as do full cars?) or by vehicle size? In which case bikes should pay less than cars who pay less than trucks...

??


Revenue gathering. They dont care if its fair or based on a logical reason.

[Disco Dan]

So - the basis of tolling is what - per occupant (buses get charged more, as do full cars?) or by vehicle size? In which case bikes should pay less than cars who pay less than trucks...

??
[/SIZE]

WHAT?!?!?! well they are going to need some pretty nifty cameras to read my plate, after i tuck it right underneath my bike now... ...toll on bikes? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

[Swoop]

How do I get a rectangular plate instead of the square one? Make the target even smaller LOL :whistle:
Re-register the bike. About $15- and you can ONLY have rectangular plates now... no more square ones.

[Wolf]

Re-register the bike. About $15- and you can ONLY have rectangular plates now... no more square ones.
Gone up since I last did it - was only around $11 including a new plate and a replacement rego label (the original one would have the wrong plate number but that was academic as the label holder was bolted to the bottom of the plate that had vanished somewhere between Hamilton and Te Awamutu) - stupid bloody square plate made out of shit-metal affixed by two screws at the top, vibrating like a mad-thing (single cylinder)... no wonder the bloody thing snapped off!

Probably happens a lot...

The small rectangular plate was much more robust (less length flapping in the breeze, I guess.)

[geoffm]

They are talking of a $10 toll - piss off - no way is it worth that.
I think their income projections will be short

[ManDownUnder]

They are talking of a $10 toll - piss off - no way is it worth that.
I think their income projections will be short

I can explain that - up to 50% of the $$ go to Transi it admin fees..!

[WINJA]

I Dont See How The Government Can Forcfully Aquire The Land From Citizens To Then Do What Is Effectively Run A Business From That Land , So Some People Are Going To Be Forced To Sell Their Houses Then Pay An S.o.e To Use The Road On The Land That Was Taken From Them

[crashe]

Gone up since I last did it - was only around $11 including a new plate and a replacement rego label (the original one would have the wrong plate number but that was academic as the label holder was bolted to the bottom of the plate that had vanished somewhere between Hamilton and Te Awamutu) - stupid bloody square plate made out of shit-metal affixed by two screws at the top, vibrating like a mad-thing (single cylinder)... no wonder the bloody thing snapped off!

Probably happens a lot...

The small rectangular plate was much more robust (less length flapping in the breeze, I guess.)

After loosing my Rego number plate a couple of weeks ago, I went in and got a new plate....
They also replaced my rego sticker and my WOF sticker with the new rego number on them.

All up $8.80 for the new plate, WOF and rego stickers.


I did mine at the local testing station..... not the post office.

[Wolf]

They also replaced my rego sticker and my WOF sticker with the new rego number on them.
They didn't replace my WOF sticker so it still had the old plate number - I guess that's what happens when you go to the Post Office rather than a testing station.

I often wondered about what would happen if I got pulled over with the "wrong" plate number on the WOF but I figured that it should be a simple matter for someone to check up and confirm the plate and rego sticker had been replaced.

That was on my old LS400, so it's academic, now.

$8.80! Sheesh - it was $8 for the plate alone when I got it! I guess I got ripped off - but not as much as Swoop did...

[Lou Girardin]

So far it's almost a total no from individuals. But some 'stakeholders' are in favour. This will be the last nail in Labours coffin.

[Lou Girardin]

I Dont See How The Government Can Forcfully Aquire The Land From Citizens

I've got news for you sunshine, there's an acre of scrub covered land in Johnsonville that was taken from my Grandmother to be used for a school that was never built. She was given a pittance for it and told to piss off.

[ManDownUnder]

I Dont See How The Government Can Forcfully Aquire The Land From Citizens To Then Do What Is Effectively Run A Business From That Land , So Some People Are Going To Be Forced To Sell Their Houses Then Pay An S.o.e To Use The Road On The Land That Was Taken From Them

I believe it's called the Works Act, very old piece of legislation the entitles the crown to pay a fair price to acquire land and other assets at a fair price for the creation of infrastructure.

[ManDownUnder]

Breaking news... no surprises from Transit.

This just in!

===
Dear Mr Under,
Sorry for the delay in responding to your query.
Transit's concept provides for Motorcycles to be tolled at the same rate as cars. Heavy Vehicles, defined by legislation as greater than 3500kgs, would be tolled at double the rate of cars.
Kind regards
WRR Consultation Team
===

oh yay... we all get tolled at the same rate as a car - except Winja

[James Deuce]

In other words: Over, Under.

Must be time for a bit of public debate sponsored by BRONZ. Are they up for it?

[Dai]

In other words: Over, Under.

Must be time for a bit of public debate sponsored by BRONZ. Are they up for it?



OK I'm ignorant and need enlightening. Who are BRONZ? What do they do and how effective have they been in the past?

I am assuming the name meaans something like "Bike Riders of NZ" or something similar.

Call me sceptical but in all my years I have been involved with a number of so called pressure groups and "national" bodies and on the whole have found them to be inefectual and more interested in the organisational structure rather than the interests of their members. Very much like governments in that they pay lip service to the membership/ voters when seeking to attain their positions bi=ut once having attained the said positions they decide that what we really need is to be told what is good for us, like little children.

I do hope I am wrong with respect to this org.

In my other sport/interest I have watched another body who proports to be there for its members, become too involved in politiking betwwen the various disciplines to really show a united front to the govermental powers, thereby becoming as useless as mammary glands on a bovine of the male gender.

[ManDownUnder]

In other words: Over, Under.



Must be time for a bit of public debate sponsored by BRONZ. Are they up for it?


No doubt they are, and any input they have is very welcome.

I'm still all for the ride thorugh the toll booths at 5:15 on a busy night... use the system against itself.

[ManDownUnder]

OK I'm ignorant and need enlightening. Who are BRONZ? What do they do and how effective have they been in the past?

I am assuming the name meaans something like "Bike Riders of NZ" or something similar.

Call me sceptical but in all my years I have been involved with a number of so called pressure groups and "national" bodies and on the whole have found them to be inefectual and more interested in the organisational structure rather than the interests of their members. Very much like governments in that they pay lip service to the membership/ voters when seeking to attain their positions bi=ut once having attained the said positions they decide that what we really need is to be told what is good for us, like little children.

I do hope I am wrong with respect to this org.

In my other sport/interest I have watched another body who proports to be there for its members, become too involved in politiking betwwen the various disciplines to really show a united front to the govermental powers, thereby becoming as useless as mammary glands on a bovine of the male gender.

I've had litle to do with BRONZ but they seem to have it together...

[Ixion]

I'll raise it at the next Auckland BRONZ meeting (7:30 pm 3rd Wednesday every month - except December I think - Danish House Penrose Maurice Rd I think it is , everybody welcome, just come along.Wotcha waiting for, an engraved invitation ? )

[James Deuce]

I do hope I am wrong with respect to this org.



I've certainly had public and private disagreements with BRONZ in the past, both distant and recent, but given the executive contains a few distinguished KBers I reckon they deserve a shot.

Pop along to the meeting like Ixion says and see if you can't help come up with an idea like half price for 50% vehicle occupancy on Auckland toll roads.

[Dai]

I've certainly had public and private disagreements with BRONZ in the past, both distant and recent, but given the executive contains a few distinguished KBers I reckon they deserve a shot.

Pop along to the meeting like Ixion says and see if you can't help come up with an idea like half price for 50% vehicle occupancy on Auckland toll roads.

So then the next meeting is the 15th then. I might just pop along to see what goes.

[Wolf]

I am assuming the name meaans something like "Bike Riders of NZ" or something similar.

"Biker's Rights Organisation of New Zealand", I believe.

[vifferman]

I find it incredible (then again, probably not) the way things work, whether it be Globular Warning or Troll Roams. Even though nearly everybody with a working brain starts off saying, "What a load of tosh! Phukkem! We won't stand for it!!", after The Media hammering it enough, everyone lies down, rolls over, and stick their bums up ready for a jolly good rogering.

We've already paid for these roads many times over. Why the flurckj should we have to pay for them again? Why should we be sucked into accepting another petrol tax? Another toll? Another imposition?




No, I haven't read any of the other posts in this thread.
I'm too lazy and/or apathetic....:zzzz:

[ManDownUnder]

Why the flurckj should we have to pay for them again? Why should we be sucked into accepting another petrol tax? Another toll? Another imposition?


Simply because they say we have to - isn't it obvious?..

or maybe it's not LOL

Where's the "No thanks" option for speeding up road building? I note there's a feedback option, and I have to say it's all on paper that presupposes the roads are to be built and tolled, and us weary punters are simply needing clarification to questions they can help us with.

What happens to the pile of "No thanks" votes they get?

[Wolf]

What happens to the pile of "No thanks" votes they get?
It gets destroyed and ignored along with all the petitions and anything else that overtly disagrees with govt "policy" (read: "whim").

What, you thought this was a democracy?!?!?

[ManDownUnder]

It gets destroyed and ignored along with all the petitions and anything else that overtly disagrees with govt "policy" (read: "whim").

What, you thought this was a democracy?!?!?

Your good point highlights my mistake... sorry...

[ManDownUnder]

Important update...

Just speaking wqith one of the guys from the public sessions Transit have been running (remember hearing about those?? - me either!)

Anyway, here's something to consider. On ramps on the tolled section are few and far between. There are 7 in total, and the section that concverns me personally is the NW from Auckland to Westgate and beyond.

There is an onramp proposed at New North Road (near the Pack 'n Save) and the next one (west bound) is Hobsonville.

So... the net effectis that anyone working in the city, living in West Auckland needs to head to New North to get onto the toll lane, or head to Hobsonville to get onto the toll lane when coming the other way.

An interesting question to ask Transit is this. With the proposed design, how do I get from A to B. There's a good chance you need to go well out of your way to get onto the toll lanes (getting off should be at any of the existing offramps I understand, so getting on is the issue affecting logistics).

That's part one of the concern - part two is strongly related however.

There will be parts of the MW where a lane is seconded for tolled use - i.e. there will be one less lane available for non tolled traffic. Combine that fact with the annoyance of having to go out of your way to get onto the tolled lane, and the deterrant effect of paying the toll, and we have a shamozzle on our hands.

The net effect is that most of West Auckalnd gets shafted in respect of heading into town (you ca't get onto the toll lane if you want to, and there's less lanes available non tolled), and likwise if you want to head west from anywhere west of the city centre.

Nice one guys...

[Swoop]

From the Harold today.
Administration costs add $800m to toll road bill

Monday November 13, 2006
By Mathew Dearnaley


Toll administration costs alone are likely to equal the extra $800 million Transit NZ says it needs to find to complete Auckland's western ring route by 2015.

Financial details disclosed by the agency at the end of last week indicate the Herald has been conservative in predicting tolls would push the final cost to motorists for completing the 48km route between Manukau and Albany towards $4 billion.

The figure could reach or exceed $4.15 billion after counting:

* Repayments of more than $2 billion over 35 years on a loan of $1 billion.

* Administration costs of about $800 million.

* Traditional funds of $1.3 billion already promised by the Government.

Transit NZ, which has waited until more than halfway through a seven-week public consultation period before issuing preliminary funding details, expects to raise $900 million from motorists - plus GST - in the 10 years after the ring route is complete.

It says in a briefing paper that it cannot make longer-term revenue predictions, but estimates administration costs will claim up to 33 per cent of tolls collected in the early years, before averaging 25 per cent over the total charging period.

It expects to have to raise a loan of up to $1 billion to cover an $800 million funding shortfall, $140 million for tolling infrastructure, and interest charges that will at first exceed revenue.

Chief executive Rick van Barneveld said Transit could not be held responsible for any revenue projections by the Weekend Herald which suggest gross takings may if anything exceed $3.2 billion.

Transit wants to charge tolls ranging from 75c to $1.50c for cars at peak periods at seven electronic charging points, and double for trucks, in 2005 dollars with adjustments for inflation plus annual rises of up to 2 per cent.

But asked if he accepted that administration costs were likely to reach $800 million, Mr van Barneveld said: "Yes, you could say that, because that's where it would be in the long haul."

He also said the Herald's use of the Retirement Commissioner's on-line debt calculator to estimate a $2.04 billion payback on a $1 billion loan over 35 years at an annual interest rate of 7.5 per cent was a simple but "valid" exercise.

On the other side of the ledger, Transit points to a study commissioned by the Automobile Association which in 2004 estimated an economic benefit of accelerating completion of the ring route at $838 million a year. That meant a return of $4.60 for every dollar invested.

But Waitakere City councillor Derek Battersby, who earlier challenged Transit to reveal all its financial documents so the public could see "how stupid the whole process is", said the Government could save Aucklanders anguish by borrowing from its superannuation fund and repaying itself $50 million-plus a year with a 5c-a-litre regional fuel tax.

He and his colleagues have been joined by Auckland City's transport committee and Manukau Mayor Sir Barry Curtis in suggesting a new fuel tax would spread the financial burden more equitably throughout the region.

But that could limit alternative revenue options for filling a $700 million public transport funding gap facing Auckland.

[ManDownUnder]

From the Harold today.
Administration costs add $800m to toll road bill



Ha - and you lot said they were in it for the money!

FFS, the tolling admin costs... a couple of booms, cameras capable of OCR, contruction and interface with a billing systems and away we go. $800m??? I don't think so. More like $20m + profits

[Wolf]

Ha - and you lot said they were in it for the money!

FFS, the tolling admin costs... a couple of booms, cameras capable of OCR, contruction and interface with a billing systems and away we go. $800m??? I don't think so. More like $20m + profits
"Admin costs" = lining the pockets of a few "administrators"

[Disco Dan]

PUBLIC CONSULTATION:

Oppurtunity to talk to the 'Western Ring Route Project Consultation Team'

MT Albert:
773 New North Road
Date: now - 11 nov

Mangere:
town centre library
Date 14 nov - 18 nov

Massey:
massey leisure centre
Date: 21 nov - 25 nov

Auckland City:
Pioneer womens hall, confrence room
Date: 28 nov - saat 2 dec

[ManDownUnder]

Cheers DD

Anyone going to look... actually run the route you'd take to/from work or whatever use you'd have for the ring route. See how much you can do on the tolled section if you actually wanted to (and how far out of your way you have to go to achieve that).

By impication... if you have to go a long way out of your way (even if you wanted to)... so do others.

And those others are the ones that will be blocking up the non tolled lanes.

Ergo, the harder it is for you to use the tolled lanes, the more conjected the non tolled ones will be for you.

[Disco Dan]

Cheers DD

Anyone going to look... actually run the route you'd take to/from work or whatever use you'd have for the ring route. See how much you can do on the tolled section if you actually wanted to (and how far out of your way you have to go to achieve that).

By impication... if you have to go a long way out of your way (even if you wanted to)... so do others.

And those others are the ones that will be blocking up the non tolled lanes.

Ergo, the harder it is for you to use the tolled lanes, the more conjected the non tolled ones will be for you.

would need to see a map!

---

would be good for a few KB'ers to turn up to one of those meetings and ask them the tough questions! someone could count how many times they say "no comment', 'not sure yet' etc etc!! hahaha

[ManDownUnder]

would need to see a map!

---

would be good for a few KB'ers to turn up to one of those meetings and ask them the tough questions! someone could count how many times they say "no comment', 'not sure yet' etc etc!! hahaha

Take a look and see how many people are there from Nielsons (or whoever) vs Transit. It's a good indicator of how much interest they have in informing people (Transit headcount) vs collating info on public opinion and dealing with objections (Nielsons)

[Disco Dan]

Here is the piece from the western leader..

had dificulty rotating, so hope it comes out ok!

[The Pastor]

why bother, the roads that will be tolled are only going to be the new roads there will be a way to get around with out paying.

[Swoop]

why bother, the roads that will be tolled are only going to be the new roads there will be a way to get around with out paying.
FFS! Look at the smegging map!
EXISTING roads are GOING to be be tolled!!!!!!!!!! The North Western Motorway between Waterview and Rosebank Rd will have a tolling station.
This has been in existance for decades.

[The Pastor]

FFS! Look at the smegging map!
EXISTING roads are GOING to be be tolled!!!!!!!!!! The North Western Motorway between Waterview and Rosebank Rd will have a tolling station.
This has been in existance for decades.


But you don't have to take the nw motorway.

[Swoop]

why bother, the roads that will be tolled are only going to be the new roads there will be a way to get around with out paying.


But you don't have to take the nw motorway.Obviously; but look at your original statement, which is incorrect.

[The Pastor]

Obviously; but look at your original statement, which is incorrect.


well I wasnt aware at that stage of what the plan is, but who cares serriously you can just go around the long way. I hate motorways. (like building them though!)

[Disco Dan]

Has anyone heard any more news on this subject???

im waiting for a mass protest ! ! ! :rockon:

[Disco Dan]

Ok, well i went down to one of the conultation days... ...spoke to a rep from transit who rides bikes himself (:gob:)

As far as cameras go, they will be taking TWO photos one as you approach and another as you pass through. So sorry dudes, they still will get our plates!!!

There is talk of a lower toll for motorbikes though.

From what i saw in the 10 min i was there yesterday, EVERYONE that came in gave the guys there a really hard time! The more people that appose the better!!