Having your knee down make you go faster??

[Quasievil]

Im interested in the bennifits of Knees down. I have just come back from a ride with a awesome rider on a Ducati 999 he went around the outside of me on a 55km corner like I wasnt there, if there was a knee down corner in NZ this would be it (on the Divi to Raglan).He did not even get his bum of the side of the seat.I got my bum over the side and put some weight over the side with my knee out a bit, as you do.
Question is
I hear this alot "got my knee down" here "got my knee down" there .
the way I think about it having your knee down say the GP way is all about being so far over your knee and occasionally the elbow touch the deck.
I think alot of riders put there knee out at 90deg from the bike to try and get it on the deck for 'wank value" as opposed to it being there by default because of the angle of the Bike in the corner.
*** IMPORTANT NOTE*** Im not a great rider and have never got my knee down (wouldnt mind though) and I am not critising any one or anything, I have knee sliders on my leathers that are unlikey to touch the deck by way of controlled cornering.
I am genuinely interested in the merits of it and how it fits into all of your riding styles.Is it neccersary at all? is it just a measure of the angle youre on or is it just a wank value thing.
could be a good discussion of taken right :apint:

[wari]

THe only time I've everr got my knee down was in the prrocess of tripping overr .. :doobey:

[Quasievil]

mmm I did it when I proposed, does it count :Pokey:

[Posh Tourer :P]

As I understand it, and as was in the brilliant instructional vid last night, gettign your knee down gives you a measure of how far you are leaned over and perhaps makes you feel safer about pushing it further. Having said that, doing int GP style is the ultimate aim. Sticking your knee out there can be wank factor, but it also encourages you to get further off the bike and get your COG down, no?

[FROSTY]

Its a discussion I've had several times.
Glen williams (the origonal not the young one) ran a race school once and his comment about knee down and body english was --"hell guys do what feels comfortable to ya"
I feel comfortable climbing all over the bike especially in the rain.
I like to keep the bike as veritical as possible rather than lean it over.
When I was last racing amongst the racing and fast road riders boys maximum "wank value" was not worn out sliders but having tyres scuffed right to the edge.
I think you are able to wind the power on sooner when the bike is more vertical .
I've seen some bloody brilliant racers. Um I think ginger malloy and len perry who Never hung a knee out their whole racing career -yet shit did the acheive some radical lean angles
I wouldn't swet the knee down thing -Heck thres so much more important stuff to worry about

[Skyryder]

I saw a sports rider take a corner the other day. He blitzed past me and and turned left into a roundabout in front of me. Saw the whole thing. Slung his arse over the saddle slung his knee down and off like a rocket. Thoughts.......what a tosser............an accident waiting to happen..etc. If you are going to ride to the limit out on the road sooner or later the edge is going under your wheels.

Skyryder

[Motoracer]

I and some of the others have commented re this topic in the thread given below:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=2070

[Zed]

Im interested in the bennifits of Knees down...Im not a great rider and have never got my knee down (wouldnt mind though)For the record Quasi, from one who has been behind you whilst riding, you are a good rider mate! Knee down or not, you have good line going into corners and maintain a good level of speed on the open road. Also you are quite happy not to lead and can adjust your riding speeds accordingly!

To me, this knee down style is just that - a style that some use and some don't. I find it interesting though that the only ones I see using this technique on the road rides are those that like to give it heaps and ride very fast! These guys are also the ones who will take their bikes to the track - so there is the connection I suppose? :yes:


Zed

[wkid_one]

Yeah mine started from the track, then I knee downed on the road - it becomes a funny situation whereby you don't feel comfortable without doing it at times. Becomes a touch thing.

The only real advantage is that it potentially allows you to corner quicker by keeping the bike more upright...

[Funkyfly]

I saw a sports rider take a corner the other day. He blitzed past me and and turned left into a roundabout in front of me. Saw the whole thing. Slung his arse over the saddle slung his knee down and off like a rocket. Thoughts.......what a tosser............an accident waiting to happen..etc. If you are going to ride to the limit out on the road sooner or later the edge is going under your wheels.

Skyryder

Mate, just because he "slug his knee down" doesnt mean he was anywhere near his or the bikes limit! not many people know their own or a bikes limit, and often the people who make comments like yourself are the ones who arent fully aware of just what a good rider on a good bike can SAFELY do.

[erik]

I've never touched my knee down, but I do hang off the bike occasionally.
I think it lets me keep the bike more upright, which is important on my bike because the pegs scrape easily. And I think I put more of my weight on the pegs when I hang off the bike, so the centre of gravity should be lower.
It feels different to sitting on the bike. I guess it feels like I'm more ready to change my line if I have to, because my weight is on the pegs and I can more easily shift it than if my butt was firmly on the seat. But I've gotta say it's pretty tiring shifting my weight around.
It's fun though :)

[FROSTY]

I saw a sports rider take a corner the other day. He blitzed past me and and turned left into a roundabout in front of me. Saw the whole thing. Slung his arse over the saddle slung his knee down and off like a rocket. Thoughts.......what a tosser............an accident waiting to happen..etc. If you are going to ride to the limit out on the road sooner or later the edge is going under your wheels.

Skyryder
Thanks for reminding me dude.One issue with the knee down riding is lack of vision on the off side.
Time to keep the radical riding for out of town frosty :confused2

[Funkyfly]

I and some of the others have commented re this topic in the thread given below:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=2070

Man was that thread a good laugh, there are some real live idiots n this forum, and they all seem to ride old slow bikes. LOL

[wkid_one]

Mate, just because he "slug his knee down" doesnt mean he was anywhere near his or the bikes limit! not many people know their own or a bikes limit, and often the people who make comments like yourself are the ones who arent fully aware of just what a good rider on a good bike can SAFELY do.

Yes, interestly enuf I actually felt safer cornering with my knee down than without

[Drunken Monkey]

When I was last racing amongst the racing and fast road riders boys maximum "wank value" was not worn out sliders but having tyres scuffed right to the edge.


That settles it then. My knee sliders will remain shiny and new as I am quite happy with the fact that my spanky diablo corsa is scrubbed in all the way the the edge. No chicken strips there...
I also like the little scrapes on the bottom of the pegs...

[wkid_one]

That settles it then. My knee sliders will remain shiny and new as I am quite happy with the fact that my spanky diablo corsa is scrubbed in all the way the the edge. No chicken strips there...
I also like the little scrapes on the bottom of the pegs...To be frank - draggin your knee will actually limit the degree to which you lean the bike over, and therefore your chicken strips. The more you drag you knee, the less you have to lean the bike over, therefore the closer to the centre of the tyre the bike is.

Leaning the bike on max lean is great, however, max lean isn't the quickest way around a corner. This is no different than wanking on about draggin your knee. Leaning the bike over as far as possible is in most instances counterproductive to riding quickly, to ride quickly, the idea is to use the LEAST AMOUNT OF LEAN POSSIBLE for any given corner (refer Keith Code).

PS: Disregard what I say as I have drunken a hole bottle of wine by myself

[FROSTY]

That settles it then. My knee sliders will remain shiny and new as I am quite happy with the fact that my spanky diablo corsa is scrubbed in all the way the the edge. No chicken strips there...
I also like the little scrapes on the bottom of the pegs...
Hmm Im thinking maybee I could start a lil cotage industry in slightly used knee scrapers.
I think I've told this story but a few guys trying to achieve street cred back in the late 80's used to buy my slightly worn race tyres --and pay like retail money for em--Just so they could show off How hard "they' rode
sheesh :baby:

[wkid_one]

Hmm Im thinking maybee I could start a lil cotage industry in slightly used knee scrapers.
I think I've told this story but a few guys trying to achieve street cred back in the late 80's used to buy my slightly worn race tyres --and pay like retail money for em--Just so they could show off How hard "they' rode
sheesh :baby:
LOL - ask Bung Bung about mine....he got my leathers with half worn knee sliders!!!!

[geoffm]

I've never touched my knee down, but I do hang off the bike occasionally.
I think it lets me keep the bike more upright, which is important on my bike because the pegs scrape easily. And I think I put more of my weight on the pegs when I hang off the bike, so the centre of gravity should be lower.
It feels different to sitting on the bike. I guess it feels like I'm more ready to change my line if I have to, because my weight is on the pegs and I can more easily shift it than if my butt was firmly on the seat. But I've gotta say it's pretty tiring shifting my weight around.
It's fun though :)

It can tend to attract the attention of the Plod, if there are any around, and lead to expensive charges. Try and convice the judge that having your knee on th edeck is safer as you face a careless use charge...
Geoff

[Motoracer]

Honestly though. If I was asked to not have my knee down while going around at a reasonable pace on 25-75K corners, I'd probably be in danger of crashing because I am too dependent on this technique.

Having the knee down gives me stability in the corners. It makes the bike lighter when I rest my knee on the ground because I am transferring partial weight of my body directly on to the ground. This isn't a proven theory but it is what I think is logical. Also, I find sliding the front and back wheels don't become too big of an issue when you have your knee down because it's kind of like having a third wheel there to keep the bike upright. It should be kind of similar to how dirt riders use their foot as a third wheel while sliding around the corners. Of course it is probably the best gauge for your lean angle cause you can really feel the road and where it is in comparison to the bike.

Maybe my style isn't too good cause I really put heaps of pressure on the knee, wearing out the damned knee sliders way too quickly! :(

One important thing I have learnt is that, you can actually go slower if all you are concentrating is touching the ground with that knee of yours. The knee scraping technique should only be used as an aid to go fast but it isn't the key to go fast. I just use this technique because I like to use this aid to make things safer and easier for myself. You can still go just as fast by not scraping the knee but IMO, it wouldn't be as safe. But this could be biased because I only ride fast with the knee down technique.

If you wana go fast, main thing is that you need to have a good grasp on counter steering, know and feel what the suspensions are doing in the corners (weight transfer between the front and the rear of the bike). You have to give it a bit of throttle the whole way through the corner cause when you decelerate, you are understeering (bad news when it comes to cornering). Weight transfer from side to side by flicking your body to the inside of the corner is also a brilliant aid. You don't have to do it but IMO you are making it easier on yourself (not your body though) by not having to lean the bike as much. This is also handy when you have to flick the bike over real quick for the esses cause it is much easier to jump to the other side of the bike quickly than it is to muscle the whole bike from one extreme lean angle to another.

These are just my opinions based on my experience folks, feel free to correct me if I am horribly wrong.

[Motu]

I wouldn't want to go flying around our roads with my knee on the deck,if you hit anything some major damage is bound to occur - and going by the road obstical recognition skills of riders on the forum (I fell off because I hit some gravel I didn't see) it would be a sure thing.Because there are no 'I tore my kneecap off on a rock I never saw' threads I can sumise that few are getting their knee down in real life.

[vifferman]

I and some of the others have commented re this topic in the thread given below:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=2070I had a look but couldn't be arsed reading the whole thread.
The advantages to sticking your knee out and down are:

It shifts the centre of gravity in towards the centre of the turn and down.
It enables racers to judge their lean angle etc. by the feel of the slider skimming the road, thus being more consistent in turns.
In extreme circumstances, the knee can be used to give extra support when the tyres are at the very limits of adhesion.
But is it appropriate to put your knee down on the road? Does this imply you're riding at the limits, which isn't usually appropriate for public roads? What would be likely to happen if a cop saw you in knee-down posture, regardless of whether you were actually exceeding the speed limit or not?

[DEATH_INC.]

I suspect like a lot of other things you're not supposed to do it's actually FUN!As for making you faster,all I can say is I've never got mine down.....

[Motoracer]

Hmmm... Valid point Motu. That is why I leave a bit of room for the "unexpected" for road riding. It is quite entertaining to see lil things on the road, like a possum crossing the road or a wet patch or pot holes, cats eye, big bump or even stones/rocks and then going around them. That's when that room for error comes in handy when you can use it to adjust your line to avoid a disaster. Knee down or not, if I was flying into a corner without being able to avoid a rock then I could just as easily hit it with my front wheel and loose the bike as I would if I hit it with my knee. Come to think of it, you can actually retract the knee back up without changing your line, so it isn't that bad, I think...

Unmarked gravel around a blind corner, hmmm... If the whole road was filled with it and there was no way of getting around it, and I came around through the blind corner on full lean and going hard, then there isn't much I could really do about that one. It's part of the risk that is envolved in motorcycleing.



[/list]But is it appropriate to put your knee down on the road? Does this imply you're riding at the limits, which isn't usually appropriate for public roads? What would be likely to happen if a cop saw you in knee-down posture, regardless of whether you were actually exceeding the speed limit or not?

I know of a few people who ride faster than me on the road who don't use the knee down technique. I don't think I am more at risk by doing it really. Personally it definetly doesn't imply that I am on my limit.

The cop? Well we got pleanty in here so I'll let them answer that one...

[Hoon]

Yeah I believe getting the knee down is a bit overated. I use to subscribe to the "more knee down must be better" theory but in the pursuit of quicker lap times I found that it really is only a broad statement and doesn't necessarily make you faster. Now I'm retraining myself as "striving to knee down" was introducing too many bad habits that were affecting my progress.

1. Hanging off too far.
Now I limit myself to hanging off no further than one arse cheek. I found that if I leant off too far I didn't have enough weight on the seat and the bike would not squat enough in the corner. As a result my rear traction would suffer and was more prone to skip out on the bumps (i.e. the hill and jenian).
I also found that the more you hang off, the less relaxed you are on the handle bars and the more unneccesary work you have to do throwing yourself around.

2. Pushing down with the knee.
Although MR prefers this I will always pick up my knee as soon as it touches or let it slide with minimal down pressure. I don't like to push down too hard as a few times I've had the rear step out on me as soon as I try to apply pressure with my knee because I've taken weight that the bike was using to hold the rear wheel on the ground.

3. Reluctance to lean any further once the knee touches.
If you try too hard to get your knee down you sometimes falsely believe you are near the limits when you are not even close. This is a barrier to your progress. These days I try to keep my knee relaxed (not bent out) and you definately know you must be going well if your knee is touching when you aren't even trying.

[Skyryder]

Thanks for reminding me dude.One issue with the knee down riding is lack of vision on the off side.
Time to keep the radical riding for out of town frosty :confused2

You got the right attitude Frosty. The road's the road, the track's the track and 'if' the twain shall meet................. :Oops:

Skyryder

[Motoracer]

Yeah I believe getting the knee down is a bit overated. I use to subscribe to the "more knee down must be better" theory but in the pursuit of quicker lap times I found that it really is only a broad statement and doesn't necessarily make you faster. Now I'm retraining myself as "striving to knee down" was introducing too many bad habits that were affecting my progress.

1. Hanging off too far.
Now I limit myself to hanging off no further than one arse cheek. I found that if I leant off too far I didn't have enough weight on the seat and the bike would not squat enough in the corner. As a result my rear traction would suffer and was more prone to skip out on the bumps (i.e. the hill and jenian).
I also found that the more you hang off, the less relaxed you are on the handle bars and the more unneccesary work you have to do throwing yourself around.

2. Pushing down with the knee.
Although MR prefers this I will always pick up my knee as soon as it touches or let it slide with minimal down pressure. I don't like to push down too hard as a few times I've had the rear step out on me as soon as I try to apply pressure with my knee because I've taken weight that the bike was using to hold the rear wheel on the ground.


Cheers for that hoon, its interesting to hear from someone who knows the stuff. I am really interested to know how badly I am affecting the rear traction by hanging off now. I am only speaking from what I personally think so I could be really wrong here. Hmmmm, I am not having any problems with my riding style yet but its most probably because I am no where close to the bike's limit. After I gain some more track experience, I'll probably hit a barrier same as you and I'll just need to adjust my riding accordingly.

Thanx again :)

[jimbo600]

Im interested in the bennifits of Knees down. I have just come back from a ride with a awesome rider on a Ducati 999 he went around the outside of me on a 55km corner like I wasnt there, if there was a knee down corner in NZ this would be it (on the Divi to Raglan).He did not even get his bum of the side of the seat.I got my bum over the side and put some weight over the side with my knee out a bit, as you do.
Question is
I hear this alot "got my knee down" here "got my knee down" there .
the way I think about it having your knee down say the GP way is all about being so far over your knee and occasionally the elbow touch the deck.
I think alot of riders put there knee out at 90deg from the bike to try and get it on the deck for 'wank value" as opposed to it being there by default because of the angle of the Bike in the corner.
*** IMPORTANT NOTE*** Im not a great rider and have never got my knee down (wouldnt mind though) and I am not critising any one or anything, I have knee sliders on my leathers that are unlikey to touch the deck by way of controlled cornering.
I am genuinely interested in the merits of it and how it fits into all of your riding styles.Is it neccersary at all? is it just a measure of the angle youre on or is it just a wank value thing.
could be a good discussion of taken right :apint:

Knee down does help. For starters your weight is better balanced in the turn, and you can get on the gas earlier as your bike will be more upright. Plus I use my knee as a gauge of lean. It starts out 90degree wide then as bank angle increses my knee gets pushed closer to the fairing by the road. When my kneeslider is still scraping the road but my wheels are not I know I've gone too far. On the road it's a matter of personal preference as I've seen some bloody quick guys getting around without sliders etc, but knee down certainly does help when done correctly and not hanging off the side of the bike with your ass next to the gearbox.

[Skyryder]

Mate, just because he "slug his knee down" doesnt mean he was anywhere near his or the bikes limit! not many people know their own or a bikes limit, and often the people who make comments like yourself are the ones who arent fully aware of just what a good rider on a good bike can SAFELY do.

Take my word Ffly this guy was not in a position to allter his line for anything. Yes he had a clear view of his right hand side before entering the corner, that is unless another bike was making a low righthanded sweep (with abandonment of any caution) where my 'biker' would not had time to give way. It has been my experiance that most people 'do' know their limits (it's just one of many reasons most bikers stay alive). You state that there is a difference between the riders limits, (my words) and the bikes limites. If you think this is true think again. A bikes limits is only as good as the rider. If the rider goes outside of their limit the bike is not going to do anything other than what the rider is capable of. Another rider can push the bike further, but the bikes limits are realitive to the riders skill. They are inseparable However to finish on a friendly note you are right in one thing. I have no idea what other riders can do safely. I would not presume to comment on their riding ability (only my own) but as I have been riding off and on for 40 odd years I do know dangerouse riding, driving etc when I see it. And in this instance I called what I saw.

Stay sharp, stay cool, stay alive.

Skyryder

[Hoon]

Cheers for that hoon, its interesting to hear from someone who knows the stuff. I am really interested to know how badly I am affecting the rear traction by hanging off now.

Hey I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject by any means! What works for me may not necessarily work for you and your bike/suspension might be a lot better than mine so you may not need to make the concessions I had to (and whos to say I made the right choices anyway??). Also I'm a lot heavier than you too on a lighter bike so any movement I make will have more affect than you on yours will.

I just wanted to demonstrate that we should take any advice with an analytical approach instead of blindly embracing it purely because someone else says it worked for them or they read it somewhere.

[Motoracer]

I just wanted to demonstrate that we should take any advice with an analytical approach instead of blindly embracing it purely because someone else says it worked for them or they read it somewhere.

Too true... I guess that's why you see some big differences in styles between riders, even in something as extream and competitive as Moto GP.

[Andrew]

Well I took my bike for a burn to Wellsford this afternoon to test out these borrowed knee sliders from Frosty.

I was so surprised how easy it was to get my knee down and keep it down on a lot of corners.

I think it helped me go faster because it gave me more confidence when coming into the corner. I found my lines were improving naturally. I also only the grabbed the brake 20% of the time I would usually.

For me personally I go faster with the knee sliders, but I think its only a psycoliogical thing. For example FF is a fast rider and he doesn't need to scrape his knee. :spudbooge

[Two Smoker]

HHmmmmm, interesting comments from everyone..... I prefer knee down, as i use it as a gauge of how much im leaning..... Now i personally know im going really hard when im hanging of the bike, knee down and close to the fairing, and scraping the pegs..... then i know that i cant go any faster other than making smoother entrys and better lines..... I think if you have no chicken strips on your tyres, that shows your a fast rider.

You can ask KK how my riding changed.... I went for a ride with him when i stayed on the bike, he ate me alive.... Then i got my knee down, and that started me getting faster etc...... I then went on a ride with him and alas he only left me behind a little bit...... I think it also gives better feel of what the bike is doing, ie rear wheel sliding, and thus can control it better....

I know there are some bloody fast riders out there, and faster ones than me (that basically includes everyone) that dont get off the bike..... but i also know some bloody fast guys that do get off the bike....

Andrew thats awesome you got your knee down :niceone: But with your lean angle and how bloody fast you are, im not surprised it was easy lol.....

[SPman]

I suspect like a lot of other things you're not supposed to do it's actually FUN!As for making you faster,all I can say is I've never got mine down..... Well...its rather hard when yr standin on the pegs with the bike near vertical........:bleh:

[Coldkiwi]

i'm a knee down kinda guy but I have to say I was really pushing to try and catch up to Tim from hamilton on his gsxr750 around coromandel and the man has got PRISTINE sliders! Officially i'm going to blame the traffic on those damn one way bridges as the reason i couldn't catch him but even with a clear road, he definitely had the pace while I was trying to get it down.

I'm guessing the real relationship between corner speed and knee on tarmac only comes into play when the distance between the knee and your fairing is pretty small.

[NordieBoy]

Hanging an arse cheek off motard style :D


http://fran.nelson.geek.nz/motorbikes/motard/iddon-action.jpg

[Sensei]

Great feed back from all . Never felt the need to try this out seem to be able to go round corner's with out having to do it . Just noticed that the guy's on the GP's don't seem to hang off their bike's like some say they do on here .They get the knee down mainly because they are doing 130mph round corner's & there is not much else left to do when their bike's are two wheel drifting to keep them off the track . Hat's off to all that get it down you are in a league of your own :not: Sensei