Cheese wire barrier - Upper Hutt

[judecatmad]

I read in the Upper Hutt Leader last night that Transit are looking at installing cheese wire median barriers along River Road (SH2) around the Moonshine Road turning. They are proposing the closing off of the right turns into and out of Moonshine Road too.

Not too fussed about the closing of the right turns, but it's a bit of a nasty bend to be having a cheese wire barrier on...

:(

[Wasp]

yea..... we know.......

[judecatmad]

yea..... we know.......

I didn't :(

(having only moved to UH in July)

[ceebie13]

I saw that with horror too... I live in Riverstone and grab most of my fuel at Shell Moonshine so "the infamous bridge" is literally on my doorstep too.
Take it easy Manchester.

Regards,
Northampton (Speed camera black spot of the universe) lol

[_intense_]

mmm cheese.... oh *slap* not that sort of cheese. havent those barriers ben made ilegal in EU? or part thereof? well no worris for this little black bike, as my babies of the road for an indefinite time!!! *crys*

[riffer]

Haywards, Eastern Hutt Road, now Moonshine Road.

Yeah, we don't really like the cheesecutters but none of us have hit them have we?

Why don't you ask Stonechucker how he feels about them closing off Moonshine Road? Its about nine months too late for him...

They can't close off that road soon enough. I go past there daily and the amount of idiots who think they can get out before I go through is amazing.

judecatmad - was that you I stopped next to at the Maungaraki lights the other day about 5.30pm?

[Shadows]

I've seen cages lose traction and cross the centre line on five occasions I can think of, both on the bridge and on the left hander heading North.
I'd rather those useless pricks were kept on their own side of the road, at least a barrier won't move across in front of you.

[Wasp]

how strong are the wire barriers anyway? stronger or weaker than say the concrete ones between petone and town (where the slip was)?

[skelstar]

Nuts, some of my dodgiest passing manuovres are done along there :)

p/t

[Wenier]

how strong are the wire barriers anyway? stronger or weaker than say the concrete ones between petone and town (where the slip was)?

The barriers are pretty strong they can rebound cars back into their own lane without the wire barrier distorting into the other lane by any real amount.

[Joni]

I reckon people forget what its like to be a new rider... that at times they are concentrating on other things than more expereinced riders might be, and barriers like the cheese wire can be really scary and just another thing to contend while on their learning curve.

[Str8 Jacket]

I reckon people forget what its like to be a new rider... that at times they are concentrating on other things than more expereinced riders might be, and barriers like the cheese wire can be really scary and just another thing to contend with in their learning curve.

Yep, I totally agree. A very valid point, its definately a confidence thing/learning curb. In some ways I think its kind of dangerous that some of us become quite complacent with our riding and things that once seemed dangerous arent even thought about again. Cause in a lot of ways they still pose the same danger....

[Wasp]

yeap, i've found myself doing things on the bike then looking to the right and seeing the wires and scaring the crap out of me.

wasnt there some stats on them saying that 100% of bikers that had come in contact with them had lost a limb.....? :gob:

[ceebie13]

Following on from Joni, Riff and Str8...Yeah, I reckon there is a very fine line between complacency and arrogance (and stupidity for that matter). You may well find that those who accuse people of riding like wusses are more than likely to be the same people that think all other road users (read car drivers) are ignorant, blind idiots. And probably the same people that give bikers a bad name by treating the road like a race track. They may even be reading this and thinking "oh he's an old fart who rides an old farts bike...what does he know?" All part of life's rich tapestry though aye?

[TygerTung]

I think the real issue here is, what IS a cheese wire fence? I'm unsure of what one is, are they very common?:scooter:

[ceebie13]

...what IS a cheese wire fence? I'm unsure of what one is, are they very common?:scooter:

try this TT. All will become abundantly clear.

[Deano]

Rather have them rather than some retard crossing the centre line and taking me out. :yes:

What about when there is a better (safer) option ? And other countries who have learnt from experience are modifying them (plastic covers) or outlawing them altogether ?

It's not quite so black and white.

[inlinefour]

What about when there is a better (safer) option ? And other countries who have learnt from experience are modifying them (plastic covers) or outlawing them altogether ?

It's not quite so black and white.

But whats next? We ban standard farming fences next to all roads. I don't thing its anything new, apart from where they are installed...

[Pwalo]

Calm down folks. It really doesn't matter what your opinion is on these barriers. The fact is that they are there and you have to take care.

I can't see that it's different to riding along beside any other fence.

Yes it can be difficult when you start riding but the truth(?) is that we all have learn to recognise any potential hazards when we're riding. Oh and not crashing into cheese cutters is a good option.

[Deano]

But whats next? We ban standard farming fences next to all roads. I don't thing its anything new, apart from where they are installed...

Adding more hazards because some already exist is no good argument in my book.



I can't see that it's different to riding along beside any other fence.


They are a lot closer, .....you could get pushed into one by a car entering your lane........and....adding more hazards because some already exist is..blah blah...

BTW - I'm calmer than a calm thing :)

[Wenier]

If you look to each side of most (maybe all) rural roads you will see standard wire fences with strainer posts etc. These are possibly just as dangerous as the so called cheese grater fences. I'd rather have them and I expect them to be installed at more places throughout NZ. Rather have them rather than some retard crossing the centre line and taking me out. :yes:


Well Inlinefour, you might be use to having wire fences because you live in a more rural community than this person who raised the concern does. I mean they are tallking about wellington, theres not many farm fences until ya leave town.

[judecatmad]

judecatmad - was that you I stopped next to at the Maungaraki lights the other day about 5.30pm?

I've only ridden on Thursday of this week (hubby's bike needs a bit of work after the road trip at the weekend!) so if it wasn't Thursday then it wasn't me. I have a blue helmet and pretty much always have tank bag and green backpack.

Was amazed at the confidence I've got since our ride to Rotorua and back (hellish tho the experience was, LOL!). I even managed to do the corner at the centre of this thread at 80 which is unheard of for me due to the wiggles scored into the road and the cr@ppy GN250 factory front tyre!

[JKWNZ]

Read a study done in AUS on the effects of cheese cutters... the conclusion was that the savings from stopping vehicles crossing over the median meant installation could be justified financially... however saving the additional loss of motorcyclists lives given the limited number of offs didn't justify paying more for better barriers :gob:

...From the injury studies the forces on the body are higher from the impact with the post, not the wires... (farming post are less dense, the wires will snap and they are often further off the road! so the same argument doesn't apply)

The overseas studies believe that if the rider does not hit the barrier they will slide across and hit a lamp post etc (don't think that applies in NZ)

But my biggest peeve is that none of the reports talks about putting cheese cutters on both sides of the road as they are designed to stop traffic from crossing the median! So whats that nightmare on SH1 south of AKL with cutters on both sides?

I don't mind them in the median as someone said earlier, I'd like to think someone else is more likely to cross the median not me.

Given that they cheap I bet Transit will try and use cheese cutters to divide the toll lane on the Western too! hmmm concrete right... cheese cutters left...

[Beemer]

Courtesy of some dumb bitch who was both stoned and drunk and who drove along the wrong side of the road, killing at least one innocent motorist in the process.

[skelstar]

I've had the sh!t scared out of me on several occasions by cars trying to overtake me whilst going around that corner because I personally find it a bit daunting
JCM - theres no way that they should be able to overtake you. Are you in the centre/right of the lane?...apologies if I sound condescending but you should make sure that you 'occupy' the space you need...no half-gaps/chances for cars to think that you're letting them through.

[Ixion]

Farm fences is not a valiud comparison. Almost always there is a ditch or verge between the road and the fence. Moreover farm fence posts snap relatively easily (don't they Postie?) and the wires pull out with not much force.

The "ride top the conditions" retort is just a cop out. On that basis you would need to endorse people chucking lumps of rock at motorcyclists from overbridges. That could be addressed the same way - Concrete being chucked at you? Ride to the conditions and avoid it.

There is no logic that says people should not object to the unnecessary introduction of an extra hazard. Riding to the conditions means riding so as to deal with the hazards there unavoidably are, not supporting adding extras ones needlessly.

And while the "stopping vehicles crossing the centre line" has some merit (but only some) that cannot be used to support the use of cheese cutters on the left hand side. Or the examples on SH1 where there is a double line of cheesecutters with a nice median strip BETWEEN them.

[judecatmad]

JCM - theres no way that they should be able to overtake you. Are you in the centre/right of the lane?...apologies if I sound condescending but you should make sure that you 'occupy' the space you need...no half-gaps/chances for cars to think that you're letting them through.

Not condescending at all :)

No, you're right, they shouldn't....but one guy in particular actually went over the double yellows just after the bend to get around me. I guess I was a bit too far over to the left but he was scaring the bejesus out of me with the way he was driving.

I took his number and intended to report him but then I figured that I had been going over 100 all the way along River Road with him behind me (was on my L-plate at the time) and if he reported me for that I'd end up with a ticket.....so not worth it.

Just out of interest, as a newbie, if you're pootling along at the speed limit and cars are backed up behind you because they want to go faster, should you be pulling over to let them pass? Hubby's opinion is yes and so we pulled over a LOT on our recent road trip cos the ginnys can't do 110 or 120 very comfortably over a long distance. My opinion is no, if I'm doing the speed limit or marginally under then they can jolly well get past me when it's safe to. I'll move over for faster bikes to get past, but to let cars past involves me slowing down a whole lot and pulling right off the road. And pulling over every time someone wants to hoon past adds HEAPS of time to a long journey :(

I appreciate that most of the folks on here will ride much bigger, much faster bikes and so it won't ever be a consideration, but if you DID happen to be riding something as small and slow as a ginny on a long road trip, what would you do?

[Drum]

"Cheese cutters" as we affectionately call them are not solely for the median. They can, and are, also used on the near side of the road. In this case they are installed to stop errant vehicles striking more severe hazards (say a big tree that has a heritage order on it so cant be cut down), or plunging over a steep bank or into water etc.

The design parameters for the barriers specify the strike angle range, that is they are effective only at strike angles of around 30 degrees or less. Generally, the further the barrier is from the road, the greater the strike angle. This is why they are installed near to the live lanes, and also why there is one either side of the grass median on the southern motorway.

In regards to their "strength" compared to concrete barriers, there is a 5 point scale (1 has the lowest stopping power - 5 the highest). A w-section barrier (or armco as they seem to be known) are Test level 3. Concrete barriers (new jersey barriers) are either test level 4 or 5, depending on their height. A test level 4 or 5 barrier is designed to stop trucks. A test level 3 barrier is designed to stop cars.

And of course, compared to other barrier types, wire rope barriers are cheap.

[Ixion]

In my youff I spent much time on the open road on bikes as slow as , or slower than , a GN. I always reckoned that I'd rather have Impatient Percy in front of me than behind me, so I moved over whenever possible even if I was doing the legal limit. Providing that it was going to be of advantage to him.

Though i didn't think it unreasonable to wait 5 or 10 minutes until a convenient spot.

You don't usually need to slow down , let alone stop. You can usually do it by doing a little jink at the entrance to a side road (turn down and back in one motion), or just taking to the shoulder for a few metres. Farm entranceways are useful too. Signal, and give him a big "go past NOW" arm wave.

If I made an effort to move over and Percy didn't do his bit by seizing the opportunity smartish, well tough, he ahd his chance.

[skelstar]

JCM - I reckon unless you slow down heaps then I wouldnt bother. Pulling over while still at 100km/h just means thier overtaking manouvre is going to take too long, and just be dangerous as all hell.

No matter what, road users really should respect the cars/bikes that do the limit.

If they are too close then 'dab' the brakes and wave them back. Done that a couple of times and it has worked a treat.

[sAsLEX]

The design parameters for the barriers specify the strike angle range, that is they are effective only at strike angles of around 30 degrees or less. Generally, the further the barrier is from the road, the greater the strike angle. This is why they are installed near to the live lanes, and also why there is one either side of the grass median on the southern motorway.
So make sure more people crash in to them to ensure they work right? Seems dumb reducing the width of available road to use a cheaper barrier, they remove the emergency stopping part of the road, like at Rangaaririririr now the tractor drivers hold up SH1 as they cant meander along the side of the road no longer

In regards to their "strength" compared to concrete barriers, there is a 5 point scale (1 has the lowest stopping power - 5 the highest). A w-section barrier (or armco as they seem to be known) are Test level 3. Concrete barriers (new jersey barriers) are either test level 4 or 5, depending on their height. A test level 4 or 5 barrier is designed to stop trucks. A test level 3 barrier is designed to stop cars.

You failed to say what the wire rope scores?

And of course, compared to other barrier types, wire rope barriers are cheap.

Not if vigilantes cut them down every second night........

. .

[skelstar]

Clearly Ixion and I disagree :).

Using entrances etc can cause other concerns like someone pulling out of them (even by a little)...esp when youre distracted by looking in your wing mirrors at the impatients.

[Drum]

The wire rope barrier is a Test level 3. The same as the w-section/ armco barrier - but cheaper to install and maintain.

[sAsLEX]

The wire rope barrier is a Test level 3. The same as the w-section/ armco barrier - but cheaper to install and maintain.

What maintance does Armco require?

Does the wire not require re tensioning?

And I thought the reason behind wire rope was that it could stop car vs trucks but its not up to that standard?

[JKWNZ]

Stopping power largely irrelevant for motorcycles... highlighting that barrier design specifications for do not include crash worthiness for motorcycles.

The double barrier area I was talking about is north of Rangiriri. I don't remember anything of strategic value to be protected there? A farmers fence maybe?

[Drum]

What maintance does Armco require?

Does the wire not require re tensioning?

And I thought the reason behind wire rope was that it could stop car vs trucks but its not up to that standard?


Armcos are costly to replace after they are struck - rebore holes for posts - replace armco etc. The end terminals alone are around $4000 each.

For wire rope barriers the posts are fitted into a socket in the ground - you pop a new (cheap) post in, and retension the wire if needed (usually they are ok).

And the wire rope barriers are not designed to stop trucks. I have seen footage of a wire rope stopping a truck, but I've also seen trucks run over them like they wern't even there.

[sAsLEX]

And the wire rope barriers are not designed to stop trucks. I have seen footage of a wire rope stopping a truck, but I've also seen trucks run over them like they wern't even there.

Hmmm thats a solid point that could be used to argue against there inclusion as the primary lane dividing method being currently utilised by the Govt. It aint even safe, let alone to silly motorcyclists, but even to Joe Voter in his Family car if a truck crosses the centre line.

[sAsLEX]

Yes the cheese cutters may stop a vehicle from coming onto your lane and smashing you, but if you get pushed wide by a vehicle changing lanes without looking and you get rammed into one....you'll more than likely loose limbs. They're fucking dangerous. So your riding to the conditions is a load of shit. Concrete median barriers are the way....but of course...they cost too much. Whats a few limbs eh.....

There is alternatives to naked wire rope structures. The plating of them with plastic coverings can retrospectivaly increase there safety towards motorcyclists without degrading their vehicle stopping power, and does not cost much. But the killer is that it does cost and they are trying to cut every dollar they can.

["D" FZ1]

As far as I am concerned they shouldn't be put up anywhere.

[sAsLEX]

the words "shoulder" and "chip" come to mind.

You are right.

The placement of these barriers often reduces the shoulder available on the chipseal road.....

[Kendog]

Well I'm glad to report that I have been given permission to ride my bike as I can lift it on my own from off the ground. (I am so proud of myself.):dodge:
Mrs KD.
Oh, and as for the "cheese cutters", having not as yet had an incident with them, I have no major problem.
What I do have a problem with is the corner in question, and in saying that, not so much the corner but the intersection before hand and the wankers who think that just because they are in a 4x4 or Volvo that we can just wait for them to drive infront of us.
I always slow down when approaching there, knowing that it is quite common for someone to be crossing the road or pulling into my lane and I will be the one who needs to react quickly or dieeeeeeee.:bye:

[Joni]

I have moved the unnecessary posts to PD...

Im getting complaints via pm and reported posts about a thread that should really not need to turn to crap. Yes everyone has the right to thier own opinion, but there is a time and a place for everything, this is not the place...

Keep it clean guys.

[inlinefour]

I have moved the unnecessary posts to PD...

Im getting complaints via pm and reported posts about a thread that should really not need to turn to crap. Yes everyone has the right to thier own opinion, but there is a time and a place for everything, this is not the place...

Keep it clean guys.

Never actually expected that I'd get the response that I did, but sadly can't say I'm surprised. A few fragile ones out there got upset over the choice of words I used, sorry to you. I'm used to stronger personalities that don't get upset over such small things. But it would be boring if we was all the same, although the flame fest would be fun :dodge:

[ceebie13]

I have moved the unnecessary posts to PD...

Im getting complaints via pm and reported posts about a thread that should really not need to turn to crap. Yes everyone has the right to thier own opinion, but there is a time and a place for everything, this is not the place...

Keep it clean guys.

Complaints??? Clean??? You are having a laugh aren't you Joni? I didn't use one single expletive in my posts. Just merely standing for the majority.
Quick...put this in the PD bin before anyone reads it! Done and dusted.:done:

Stands in corner with his hands on his head.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Farm fences is not a valiud comparison. Almost always there is a ditch or verge between the road and the fence. Moreover farm fence posts snap relatively easily (don't they Postie?) and the wires pull out with not much force.

The "ride top the conditions" retort is just a cop out. On that basis you would need to endorse people chucking lumps of rock at motorcyclists from overbridges. That could be addressed the same way - Concrete being chucked at you? Ride to the conditions and avoid it.

There is no logic that says people should not object to the unnecessary introduction of an extra hazard. Riding to the conditions means riding so as to deal with the hazards there unavoidably are, not supporting adding extras ones needlessly.

And while the "stopping vehicles crossing the centre line" has some merit (but only some) that cannot be used to support the use of cheese cutters on the left hand side. Or the examples on SH1 where there is a double line of cheesecutters with a nice median strip BETWEEN them.

Ixion, far better said than anything I could've written....I'm with you 100%

[Insanity_rules]

I live a block from that intersection and as much as its going to inconvenience people, I think that closing the right hand turn is a safe idea.

The cheese cutter barrier however is a BAD move! Has anyone in the crew ever hit one and lived to tell?