The Adventures of an aging Poolboy

[WRT]

Well, it seems some time ago the old man had a bit of a mishap with his spa pool. He'd purchased a plug for the feed going from the pool to the pump, a rubber plug around 2" across and around 1.5" deep, with a nut and bolt arrangement through the middle to tighten it in place. To this day I am still unsure as to how the need arose for the use of this plug, but it was decided one day to attempt to fit this plug into its intended hole.

And this was where the mishap occured. Apparently, the plug should be put in place and tightened while the spa's pump is switch is in the OFF position. This important fact was lost on Dad, and the afforementioned plug was last seen as the suction whisked it from his hands and sent it in a pumpwards direction at around warp 9.

According to Dad, over the next few seconds, as he frantically raced for the pump's off switch, there were a few rattles and a varying amount of suction that would inidicate that it had successfully navigated a couple of the bends in the pipe before becoming lodged in an unknown location somewhere midway between pool and pump.

Now with the pump off, Dad did everything he could think off to dislodge the plug, he's tried poking it out with lengths of wire and hose, and also tried to pressurise the pipe with his water blaster in an attempt to force the plug in either direction. All of these attempts failed. Miserably. Along with his attempt to curse the plug out of hiding.

The pool sat unused and neglected for the next few years, but now that Dad is looking to sell his house the need has arose for something to be done with the now useless spa pool that is occupying prime position in the patio.

There are two basic options, as far as we can see. The first is to try to locate said plug, and extract it (with extreme prejudice). This option is a tricky one, as the exact location of the plug is unknown, other than it being somewhere in the midst of around 10-15m of well buried piping, that runs below coblestones and under a low deck - neither of which will be easy to tear up or gain access to.

The other option is to rip the whole arrangement, pool, pump, pump house, pergola, decking and cobbles out of the ground and replace it with something less, err, "antagonistic". A nice soothing water feature, perhaps. Or perhaps something different, as the association with water (and therefore plumbing) might not go down so well at this point in time.

To add to the problem, Dad is now well into his retirement, and so the available funds for this project are not sufficient to deal with a large scale endeavour.

So here is the part were we ask for help. Is there anyone out there in KB land that can offer some practical advice on how we can go about extracting this plug from it's hiding place? Or should we just give up and rip the whole lot out?

Bear in mind two things - the whole arrangement is so well integrated with it's surroundings that if we have to dig pipes out of the ground to get to this, then we might as well just keep going and rip the whole lot out. The other thing to bear in mind is that he is doing this with the intent to sell the property, and therefore wants the property to be as valuable as possible.

And no, before anyone suggests it, he's not the sort who will just fill the pool back up with water and leave it for the new owner to discover the problem of their own accord.

[BNZ]

Put a filter on the pump intake (if it doesnt have one allready) and turn it on. Worst case scenario you kill it, then you rip it out like you had possibly planned allready.

If your gonna rip it out you might as well start it up and see what happens?

[The_Dover]

have you tried reversing the pump and blowing the sucker out?

[Sniper]

That is incredibly funny, and yet a bugger to think of a fix.

[WRT]

Unfortunately, he's already tried that. The suction isnt quite enough to pull the plug any further. We had thought about trying to reverse the flow of the water to push it back out again, but cant see any way to do this either.

[BNZ]

Unfortunately, he's already tried that. The suction isnt quite enough to pull the plug any further. We had thought about trying to reverse the flow of the water to push it back out again, but cant see any way to do this either.

Swap the pipes where the exit/enter the pump

[The_Dover]

find a solvent that degrades rubber but wont damage the pvc pipe and melt the bastard out.

[WRT]

BNZ - that was our thought as well, but the thing is that its all fixed in place, I guess we could do it by chopping the pipes off where the come into the pump house and then re-plumbing new pipes to the appropriate place tho.

Is there any way that we can reduce the size of the plug? Are there any acid like products that will attack the rubber of the plug without affecting the pvc of the pipes? Although this could be playing with fire, we'd need to make sure it was well rinsed out afterwardst to ensure none of it came in contact with the pump.

I guess we are kind of hoping for the sort of lateral thinking like "let the air out of the tires" when there's a truck wedged under a bridge.

[WRT]

find a solvent that degrades rubber but wont damage the pvc pipe and melt the bastard out.

Nice one, that's just what I was typing up at the same time - anyone know of something along these lines?

[Motu]

BNZ - that was our thought as well, but the thing is that its all fixed in place, .

I can't see how the whole thing could be welded into place....how could the pump be serviced? So remove the pump and reverse the pipes...make adapters etc.Then you can reverse flush.

[The_Dover]

toluene, turps or naptha (use petrol??) should do it. check what the pipes are made of first though and try and keep it away from the pump.

[Disco Dan]

go and purchase another plug, and test it with some houshold solvents and see what will melt it before trying it inside the pipe!

think about what is good for melting rubber!

always try some 'drano' and seal one the end of the pipe, gas it makes may be enough to dislodge it.

Do you have an air compressor? may work also? Would need huge amount of pressure and risk cracking the pipe work..

yeah petrol should melt rubber, but be careful as the petrol will leach into the plastic walls of the piping and you may get residual chemicals show up in the spa water for years to come!

Any way you can thread something all the way through the pipe to the other end, attach something to it then pull like smeg?

[WRT]

Motu - it can be done, the prob is that the pump is mounted in a particular location and orientation, which means a fair bit of replumbing and possibly jury rigging a new frame for the damn thing while we run it to try and push the plug out. Still, its got to be easier than ripping the whole lot out of the ground and relandscaping, thats for sure.

Dover - could work, anyone know of a store where they will be able to tell us what products will melt rubber but not PVC? What's toluene? Is that something you can purchase over the counter?

[WRT]

Any way you can thread something all the way through the pipe to the other end, attach something to it then pull like smeg?

This one could work, maybe float a thin line down there and then gradually work our way up to a thicker rope with a big knot in it maybe . . . good thinking!

Basically, I'm gonna go over there this weekend to give him a hand, if we have a few ideas to try then we can work our way through them and see what what works.

[Bussaman]

This may dislodge it.

45176

[Disco Dan]

Motu - it can be done, the prob is that the pump is mounted in a particular location and orientation, which means a fair bit of replumbing and possibly jury rigging a new frame for the damn thing while we run it to try and push the plug out. Still, its got to be easier than ripping the whole lot out of the ground and relandscaping, thats for sure.

Dover - could work, anyone know of a store where they will be able to tell us what products will melt rubber but not PVC? What's toluene? Is that something you can purchase over the counter?

almost all chemicals will leach into the plastic walls of the piping, will only release risidual amounts into the water but it will still be present. (keep fish, and someone else once used my plastic bucket to wash their car and despite rinsing it out for ages, the fish all died when i used it to change water)

You will be amazed at how porus plastic can be!

[WRT]

Actually, I wonder if Bussaman is onto something, anyone clued up on making spud guns? I wonder if the same principle would work, or if we'd just wind up making a crater out of half Dad's garden . . .

[Macktheknife]

You need a garden hose and several fishing weights. Take a garden hose wedge a few 2 ounce weights into it and insert it into the pipe from the pump end, proceed until it reaches the obstruction. Then using the hose like a slide hammer, 'vigourously bash' the obstruction until it moves.
Alternatively, you can use the hose to measure the length from the pump to the obstruction so that you know exactly where to dig it up and cut out the offending plug, replacing only that bit of pipe that is blocked. At least this will tell you precisely where you need to look for the blockage and if the option is viable.
Using high pressure is not that recommended as it could blow other parts of the pipe completely.
Good luck.
Mack

[Lias]

One of those bloody big long "snake" things you use to clean drains of blockages? Should be able to buy one at a hardware store.

Shove that in at the pump end and try and push it back out the other end?

[The_Dover]

I think Mac has used that one to dislodge dead gerbils before..........

To be honest, I'd just be a right cunt and say "yeah, the spa works great! beautiful in the summer"

and then bank the cheque.....chances are the pump is fucked from not being used for a few years anyway.

[WRT]

We tried using a hose to measure where the plug is, but by the time it's gone round a few bends there's so much resistance on it that it's hard to tell if you have come up against the plug or not.

And you're probably right about the pressure thing, maybe a spud gun arrangement isnt the right way to go about it (I just liked the idea of using explosives . . .)

[Damon]

buy a cap for the pipe then put a small hole in it to put a compressor up to, put a small foam ball in it that will make a tight seal with the pipe and blow, do it from the pump end and the ball should push the plug back the way it came, i saw it a couple of weeks ago on discovery for cleaning concrete out of concrete pump lines, worked awesome

[Disco Dan]

looks like lots of ideas to try!

my 2c, is leave the chemical methods till last! just in case!

[WRT]

Damon - might need too much pressure tho. The plugs wedged in there pretty good now, and it would take a fairly grunty compressor wouldnt it?

[The_Dover]

Get a trained hamster to go up the pipe and gnaw away at the plug until you can wash it out with very little pressure.

Maurice has one you can borrow.

[Ixion]

find a solvent that degrades rubber but wont damage the pvc pipe and melt the bastard out.

Doubt you'll find a solvent that will DISSOLVE natural rubber without affecting PVC. Lots os solvents will bugger the rubber up and soften it, but most of them will actually make the rubber swell, which is what you don't want.

Damon's on to it. Air hose into the pipe on the other side and blow the sucker back out again. And you can regulate the pressure , just wind it up until it moves. You can hire air compressors for half a day.

[Damon]

the other option would be to talk to pool or pump people to see if they have delt with it before and what they did

[Filterer]

I would have thought the most obvious would be to ring up a drain unblocker. The gus that have long rod with a camera on the end to discover the problem, that way they can measure the distance to the obstruction (by the amount of cable inserted) and because theres a camera you can tell if youve just hit a bend or if you have hit the plug. Might cost you a couple of hundred but will save how many hours fucking around

[ManDownUnder]

My thoughs... there are 2 discrete problems here

Where is the plug, and what do you do about it.

1) Locate the plug in the pipe. Could be done using a conduit mouse (any plumber will have one) or pissibly attaching a vacuum cleaner suction to one end of the pipe and feed string in from the other end.

If there is no gap around the plug the conduit mouse will hit it and stop. You get an accurate measure of where the thing is

or... if there is a gap around it, the string will be sucked through that gap. Attach a tail of some sort to the string that will stop when it hits the plug (a bit of paper or cardboard in the shape of a bowtie comes to mind?)

Having located the problem then
2) Remove it. If the pipes are exposed, cut a decent sized section out - like a 300mm before, and 300mm after the plug's location. Get a broom handle, poke the plug out, and PVC cement the section back in (complete with proper jointers etc.

If the pipes are not exposed, you get a good idea where to dig/access them - then see my point above.

[WRT]

Might give a few of these methods a go then call in the experts as Speedie says. Dad did try calling the guy that he'd brought the plug off, but he'd sold the business and the new guys input was limited to something along the lines of "Oh, bugger!"

[Filterer]

Does any water flow past the plug at all, if it does get some heavy duty fishing line and attatch a very small weight, or maybe something like a piece of paper, just enough to give it enough resistance to flow with the water. When it comes out the other end tie on somethin rather large but small enought ot fit through the pipes and bends, then reel the sucker out!

[The_Dover]

Must

find

the

plug

<img src="http://www.planearium2.de/bilder/wallpaper-lemmiwinks-800.jpg">

[WRT]

MDU - like your suggestion with the vac and the string. Will give that a go and see if we can pull the plug back through.

Filterer - I'd say that your right and phoning in the experts may be the only way to go in the end, but if there are a few free or cheap alternatives, then we'll have to give them a go first. Unfortunately there is a reason why Dad's having to sell up the house and it aint cause he's run out of cupboards to keep his spare cash!

On the topic of experts however, anyone got a good contact? Dad's out Highland Park way.

[WRT]

LOL @ Dovers post

[Pillick]

Never have I seen a thread that promised so much and gave so little...

Here I was expecting a raunchy story of a veteran poolboy, employing all his wily skills and experience to fight off his younger competitors. But no, not a single bored housewife in sight. What the hell, this is about PLUMBING?

P.S. Actually that was pretty funny. Have you tried the simple waterblaster thing lately? I guess its possible the rubber has perished over the years, and shrunk a bit?

[WRT]

Pillock - I felt the same way about the girly threesome thread. This one however has excitement, adventure, sexual references (thanks to Dover and his Gerbil), and a good lashing of humour.

[Pillick]

Sexual references? huh?

Oh, I have now returned, shaken and disturbed, from a Google search on alternative uses of Gerbils. Thanks WRT, I really could have done without knowing that :sick:

[WRT]

Thanks Speedie, I'll email Dad and get him to give them a call

[ManDownUnder]

MDU - like your suggestion with the vac and the string. Will give that a go and see if we can pull the plug back through.

Don't rely on the string to do it... if you're planning to pull something back through, use the string to pull through a bit of rope, but that'll be a pig of a thing if trying to pull it around a corner (which I doubt it will...)


Good luck

[ManDownUnder]

WRT, you need to see THESE GUYS (http://www.hydrovac.co.nz/)they are the experts in Hydro Flushing, and Vac Flushing. They do exactly what you need.

The ultimate in industrial colonics...

SSSHHHHHH - LURPPPP-P-P-P (oi - where'd me willy go?)

[MikeyG]

Disconnect the pump suction at the pump, there should be a screw-on fitting onto the pump. Use a compressor to blow the plug back into the pool.

[The Pastor]

or just get a water blaster down the end? Or 30 mol Hcl? or find out where it is in the pipe, cut it and but a new section back in?

[BNZ]

think about what is good for melting rubber!

About 1000cc's of suzuki motor should do the trick

[WRT]

Ok, the experts were called in. It's buried somewhere around 18" below some concrete, where two pipes join. Apparently it requires the deck and the cobbles to be ripped up to replace the pipe, more than the damn pools worth. Looks like the pools going to the tip and a nice planter box is going in its place.

And it cost $110 for the bad news. Oh, joy.

[WRT]

Well, we are a few months down the track now. Dad came to a decision on the pool, and turned it into a water feature, it was all finished just in time for Christmas day. Basically he just chopped the top off the spa, plugged the holes, filled the bottom (so it's with in the legal limits depth-wise for pools without fences) and lined it all with some waterproof plastic. There is still some leeching from the kwila that is colouring the water every time it rains, but he's got around 8 or so goldfish that seem happy enough in there as well as a few plants.

The little fountain that runs into it is gradually getting taken over by moss and creepers, and should be mostly hidden soon, other than where the water runs down over the rocks. The fish are now quite tame and will swim up and take food out of your hand. There are also around 3 or 4 coloured lights in the water and a couple over head in the pergola, looks quite cool at nights.

Cost him a few hundred in materials (including the wood, pump and lights), plus a fair bit of time to build it all. Basically though, its a vast improvement over the broken old pool!

[KLOWN]

looking good.

[WRT]

The photos were taken with my phone on a cloudy day so dont really do it justice. Such a vast improvment over the old pool, it's just transformed the whole patio.

[Jimmy B]

good effort that Man