Never Forget it`s Dangerous [Archive]

View Full Version : Never Forget it`s Dangerous

moko

8th July 2004, 17:17

Wenier

8th July 2004, 17:57

shit thats bad if its all separate accidents. and at least you are all good and didnt have a problem with a little slipperyness

bluninja

8th July 2004, 21:12

Redstar

8th July 2004, 21:29

5 bikers killed in separate accidents in my little corner of England in a 48 hour period this week,last year 9 were killed all year.So bad that local t.v. showed a Police safety video on the evening news.So people no matter what the reason,who was to blame these guys are no longer with us so please bear in mind that no matter how good you are shit happens.I hit something slippery on the road last night while overtaking on a corner(dual carriageway)at 60m.p.h.,stayed cool and she straightened up after a nasty little wriggle but it`s that easy to get yourself in the shit and I suspect plenty of newbies woulds have panicked and ended up chewing the Armco in a similar situation.Take it easy out there O.K?
Hi Moko
My life in Devon was puntuated by the Death of two good Mates on bikes just from my town Plymouth is a sailors town? those boys come home and spend up on bikes but never get to use um much and when they do they go a bit OTT? how many were navy on shore leave I wonder? PS how Argyle going in the soccer?

Bob

8th July 2004, 22:13

Yup I saw the national news and there was a 5 minute special report, and though it was biased and bordered on propoganda.....

700 motorcyclists die on UK roads each year.
In the summer months in Sussex bikes are 3% of the road population and 60% of the deaths.

And the visuals of wrecked bikes, bloodied helmets interspersed with an amatuer stunt video gone terribly wrong, and some nuts weaving across solid lines and back at high speed in the face of oncoming traffic.....making the impression that all bikers are to blame for their own deaths, and are a menace to the public.

Nothing new there then! We're always the scapegoats. Take a look at the following (I had to look this little lot up and do something on it for the IAM):

"Road deaths in the UK are on the increase. Figures from 19 police forces, compiled by the lobby group SafeSpeed, show a 5 per cent increase in the annual death rate last year, the sharpest rise for 15 years. The survey calls into question the Government’s strategy of increasing the number of speed cameras while allowing forces to redeploy hundreds of traffic police to other duties.

So where does the blame lie for the increase in road deaths? Mr Jameison lays this firmly at our [bikers] door, commenting “One of the main reasons why the death rate had stuck at about 3,400 for the past five years was the increasing popularity of high-performance motorcycles. Almost a fifth of all the people who died on the roads in 2002 were motorcyclists. The largest proportion of these were “born-again bikers”, men in their 30s and 40s riding machines of more than 500cc.”

But do the figure bear this out? The latest figures I could find from the DETR would seem to agree on the age front, showing 53.30% of UK motorcycle accidents are from the 26-40 age group, with 23.6% involving under 25’s. However, sports bikes were involved in under half (43%) the accidents, interesting given that the sales of bikes are dominated by this class.

The figures also make for interesting reading, given SafeSpeed’s criticism of increased reliance on cameras:

72% of motorcyclist casualties occur on built-up roads (roads with a speed limit of up to 40 mph), even though such roads carry less than half of motorcycle traffic. 26% of all casualties occur on rural roads (roads with a speed limit of over 40 mph) and just 1% of motorcyclist casualties occur on motorways, which carry 7% of >motorcyclist traffic. The pattern for motorcyclist fatalities differs however, with : 60% of motorcyclist deaths occurring on non built-up roads, 37% on built-up roads and 3% on motorways.

So the implication appears that commuters are the main culprit in terms of accidents, but leisure riders are the biggest group in the death stats.

A TRL study found that approximately 75% of motorcycle accidents occur at impact speeds of up to 48km/h (30 mph) and 96% at up to 64 km/h (40 mph). The >study also found that almost all (93%) of the serious and fatal head injuries occur at speeds of up to 64km/h (40 mph).

This would infer that speed on its own is not the problem. Which is what over-reliance on cameras infers."

But the above is stats, and nothing else - and stats can be made to prove just about anything ("36% of all statistics are untrue").

End of the day, as Moko says, no matter how good you are (or think you are), there are 1,001 things that can happen beyond your control. When the weather is bad (for which read not dry and sunny), I back off and concentrate really hard on being as smooth as possible and ride within more within my limits (does that make sense?)

As for Argyle - they're doing very well indeed! Promoted last season to 'The Championship', which is the new name for 'Division One', which is the one-before-last name for Division Two (before Divison One became The Premiership). I hope that makes sense! But basically, they are one season away from playing at the highest level.

(My Father in Law is originally from Plymouth, hence me taking an interest in the subject! Went to see them play last season, they thumped Tranmere 6-0 or 6-1, which was great fun!)

moko

9th July 2004, 01:54

Yup I saw the national news and there was a 5 minute special report, and though it was biased and bordered on propoganda.....

To be fair the BBC Westcountry report was in no way judgemental,biased or anything,I`ve got a feeling the Police might have asked them to do something.Bike Cop on there was saying that bikes are fun but treat the whole experience with respect and there are plenty of things to be aware of while you`re riding.He was shown on his own VFR800 and didn`t go into the specifics of any accident,backed up with their vid and comments from the biggest local dealer along the same lines.there was no mention at all of maniac bikers or any kind of blame,it was purely a "for god`s sake take every precaution" kind of thing when they could very easily have done the "2-wheeled death trpas" thing.
There`s a few on here from this area now in N.Z. Redstar,Jimbo750(got some pics for you by the way mate,send me your e-mail)and Britstorm are from the plymouth area,maybe you could hook up.
As you say Plymouth is a naval town and along with the marines they`re young guys with loads of money and a few ride Ducatis and the like,usually very badly.If you want any more news from thes parts mate pm me and I`ll answer any questions that I can.

bgd

9th July 2004, 02:37

.....making the impression that all bikers are to blame for their own deaths....

Not all, but unfortunately it would appear the majority are. On the Bikesafe (bike safety run by plod) course and recently in a talk given by plod to the Kent IAM club it was explained that the majority of fatalities occur on rural roads and the majority of those are single vehicle accidents, i.e. only the bike involved.

Seems that we don't corner very well, especially left handers. :eek5:

Bob

9th July 2004, 05:39

"Kent IAM club" - do you guys get 'Progress' magazine, or is that just LAM? I do the occasional article for Progress and a friend of mine (Sue Corrance) is an observer for LAM, so just wondered how the 'borders' work?

wari

9th July 2004, 05:53

I WOnder how many times bikers lose it because of the actions ofa car anda accidint results...

I know I've had some near missses and the evasion tactics have almost resulted in calarmity ... :eyepoke:

Lou Girardin

9th July 2004, 06:44

I like the 'bikes over 500cc' comment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the vast majority of UK bike sales?
It's like referring to cars over 1100cc.
It's directly aimed at non-bikers whose only point of reference was from 40 years ago when 500cc was a superbike.

bgd

9th July 2004, 07:03

bgd

9th July 2004, 07:10

I like the 'bikes over 500cc' comment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the vast majority of UK bike sales?

I'd imagine so. There are size limits if you are under 21 but would imagine most new riders over that age go direct access which allows them to ride a bike of any size.

I know a guy who commutes on a 125 but his weekend bike is an 1150GS. Other than him everyone else is on a 600 or upwards.

Actually thinking about it there are an awful lot of scoots on the road - if you want to count those.

moko

9th July 2004, 17:23

I like the 'bikes over 500cc' comment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the vast majority of UK bike sales?

Riding schools here use CB500`s or GS500`s as a rule for direct access tests,you can pass on one of those and get on an R1 to ride away from the test centre,and DA is the most popular choice,though it looks like a clampdown`s on the way.The other option is a 33 bhp bike and many prefer restricted bigger machines to 125`s and the like.It`s the older guys that are trashing themselves,either they`ve already got a licence and think a GSXR1000 performs like their old GS1000 so they can just jump on and ride off,or they`re DA blokes with plenty of money but zero experience.Best-sellers at the moment incidentally are the new Honda 125`s,the CBR and the XR,first time small bikes have hit the top spot since the KMX125 and DTR125 were the learners weapon of choice,both neat bikes in fact,particularly when de-resricted.

Bob

9th July 2004, 21:59

Restricted bikes are going to be hit as well - the 'Powers That Be' are looking to bring in power to weight ratios, which will stop a lot of the restrictions.

Good thing in some cases - I've heard of a Haybusa being restricted! Can you imagine what reducing THAT to 33bhp must do to it? Can't be safe to ride like that surely?

bluninja

10th July 2004, 21:01

Not all, but unfortunately it would appear the majority are. On the Bikesafe (bike safety run by plod) course and recently in a talk given by plod to the Kent IAM club it was explained that the majority of fatalities occur on rural roads and the majority of those are single vehicle accidents, i.e. only the bike involved.

Seems that we don't corner very well, especially left handers. :eek5:

I wonder if the audience is the correct one for the police to preach to. It would be interesting to hypothesize as to why left hand bends have more fatalities than right hand bends (assuming that oncoming traffic is not the cause of the fatality).

Is it that as you run wide you go from positive camber to negative camber and so lose a huge amount of grip? Is it that a gutter road position gives you a good view on RH, but none on LH?

From experience in NZ I found my safety was often compromised when assuming the correct position for a left hander due to the number of 4x4 nutters straightening the corners. Got to seem them earlier, but often they were almost inside me, and it was a long way to get back to the LH verge...and most of the time they don't even bother trying to get back to their side of the road.....I guess if I'd flown off the road and killed myself I would have been a single vehicle fatality on the stats.

bgd

11th July 2004, 08:54

I wonder if the audience is the correct one for the police to preach to. It would be interesting to hypothesize as to why left hand bends have more fatalities than right hand bends (assuming that oncoming traffic is not the cause of the fatality).

Is it that as you run wide you go from positive camber to negative camber and so lose a huge amount of grip? Is it that a gutter road position gives you a good view on RH, but none on LH?

From experience in NZ I found my safety was often compromised when assuming the correct position for a left hander due to the number of 4x4 nutters straightening the corners. Got to seem them earlier, but often they were almost inside me, and it was a long way to get back to the LH verge...and most of the time they don't even bother trying to get back to their side of the road.....I guess if I'd flown off the road and killed myself I would have been a single vehicle fatality on the stats.

The traffic police realise that talking to the likes of IAM is really preaching to the converted, i.e. those who appreciate the need for advanced training. The difficulty they have is getting at those more in need of such lectures and they don't know how to get to them. Efforts like bikesafe and road shows only go so far but don't reach everyone.

Not sure why it's left handers that seem more of a problem but they do say that in almost every case they don't know why the bike left the road, i.e. the bike is more than capable of taking the corner at a higher speed than that at which the accident occurs. Down to rider error, getting it wrong standing the bike up and running wide. Their message is if it's going wrong just lean the bike further, most of us don't (often) exceed the bike's capabilities. I think the problem with this is it flies in the face of our natural instincts.

It's good to have someone with years of riding experience to point these things out. I'd rather learn from the mistakes of others than mine. Exposure to these guys - meeting them as riders rather than cops - has certainly helped me.

bluninja

13th July 2004, 05:46

Down to rider error, getting it wrong standing the bike up and running wide. Their message is if it's going wrong just lean the bike further, most of us don't (often) exceed the bike's capabilities. I think the problem with this is it flies in the face of our natural instincts.

I guess the other advice to go with that is to keep the throttle opened up....not very intuitive either. I guess every little helps....but really it's down to riders to hone their bike control skills and work on their road riding to create the correct habits......when you're in a mess you don't have time to recall the good advice.

Lou Girardin

13th July 2004, 06:33

On left handers, the consequence of running wide is hitting an on-coming car. Invariably fatal.
It's almost what happened to the guy on the CBR in the Waipu gorge on Sunday. He missed a head-on with a car by about 2 - 3 metres

SPman

13th July 2004, 07:33

Not sure why it's left handers that seem more of a problem but they do say that in almost every case they don't know why the bike left the road, i.e. the bike is more than capable of taking the corner at a higher speed than that at which the accident occurs. Down to rider error, getting it wrong standing the bike up and running wide. Their message is if it's going wrong just lean the bike further, most of us don't (often) exceed the bike's capabilities. I think the problem with this is it flies in the face of our natural instincts.
When my partner got back into bikes (after a 30 year layoff), I drummed this into her. "If the roads dry and you arent dragging anything, dont hit the brakes! Just lean some more and feed a bit more power in!" It saved her bacon on at least 2 occasions - on left hand corners! - with oncoming traffic! FZR 250.
One of the bins on a Coromandel run in Jan. was due to the same thing - Survival reaction on LH corner - brake - standup - lock up - spear off road - exit one 996! :whistle: His bike was quite capable of getting around the corner at the speed he was doing - his brain said "fuuuuuck!"...exit stage right.! Luckily he was OK.
In moments of stress or tiredness, or inattention, its easy to get into that situation.I guess the only remedy is just experience and on road/track training to teach people what their bikes limits really are - and more importantly, what their personal limits are! So, when it all turns decidedly dodgy, ingrained learned procedures over ride personal limits!
I always think that, if you have to think about a procedure, in an emergency, its often already too late!

moko

13th July 2004, 08:20

A few weeks ago I saw a couple of clowns photographing each other doing wheelies at I`d say at least 60 m.p.h. on the Plymouth/Kingsbridge road,the S.W. ex-pats will tell you what a beauty that one is.These guys ride custom painted GSXRs so pretty easy to recognise.Same road on my regular Sunday evening ride yesterday and I come across 3 police cars and one of the GSXR`s very,very bent,the front wheel was actually missing and the forks kind of an "L" shape.The other guy had his bike parked up and was talking to one of the Cops.I really hope the guy didn`t hurt himself too seriously(ambulance with flashing lights passed me a way further down the road)but I`ve seen these 2 riding like complete twats more than once and if anyone ever had it coming it was one of them.Luckily looked like no other vehicle was involved,pure case of rider ****-up,and this after a week of anyone reading or watching the local media being well aware that 5 of our number are no longer with us,you just cant get through to some people. :disapint: