Bowling for Columbine [Archive]

Paul in NZ

10th July 2004, 21:27

YES YES!

Now this is true and others on this list can back me up here....

On the MGNOC (Moto Guzzi wierdness-don't ask) list a while back there was a serious discussion on the best hand gun to carry while riding.. :2guns:

This graduated into a discussion about riding jackets and tank bags that provided the easiest access to your bazooka of choice....

:eek5:

Holy COW!

They were serious and rather proud of it all and could not see anything odd about it?

Oh well.......

Paul N

Don't pass me you bastards or I'll....

scumdog

10th July 2004, 21:38

I've seen the movie and it was one of the biggest wastes of money since I bought the ash-tray for my Sporty.

It is a nothing film that paints a slanted picture of gun ownership in the USA and did nothing for gun safety but did a lot for making Moores pockets a lot fuller, just be thankful he doesn't want to make a movie about motorbikes <_<

MikeL

10th July 2004, 22:29

I've seen the movie and it was one of the biggest wastes of money since I bought the ash-tray for my Sporty.

You've obviously realized that smokers are just pawns manipulated by the American tobacco industry. Now use the same logic to analyse the gun lobby...

Despite the exaggeration and (I admit) the manipulation in the movie, surely it must be obvious that America has a real problem with guns...

jrandom

10th July 2004, 22:34

surely it must be obvious that America has a real problem with guns...

Well, I think it's obvious that America has a real problem with Americans...

Jackrat

10th July 2004, 23:14

Seen it,read all the discussions on different sites.
Most of it's anti gun BS that's about as one eyed and realistic as the American gun lobby.Nothing happening there is even remotely like our situation.Aramoana was more a result of the break down of our mental health system and slack police veting at the time.All three of our major incidents have involved known nutters that were being ignored by mental health and the police.In Aramoana if the Police had listened to what they were already being told it would never have happened.
The same happend in Australia where a known nutter that was already suspected of murder was given a gun permit by some stupid local plod.
The Americans on the other hand.......Well their them ain't they :spudwhat:

Mongoose

11th July 2004, 10:00

You've obviously realized that smokers are just pawns manipulated by the American tobacco industry. Now use the same logic to analyse the gun lobby...

What, the 'Merican Anti Gun Lobby and Ash in NZ have joined forces? :doobey:

SpankMe

11th July 2004, 10:48

All three of our major incidents...

There's actually been four with six or more dead. (http://massmurder.zyns.com/murder.php?country=New%20Zealand)<br /><br />

k14

11th July 2004, 11:39

I just see that movie as some good entertainment. Although some bits of it are pretty scary, weather or not they are true or not.

Like that guy that sleeps with the .44 Magnum under his pillow, he goes into his room and shows Moore and then puts it in his mouth. Then he says "There are some real psychos out there," that is the best line ever. I would hate to see the "psychos" he talks about.

Hoon

11th July 2004, 11:43

Mongoose

11th July 2004, 11:53

I thought it was pretty good...showed just how screwed up and paranoid the Yanks can be. I mean 15,000 or whatever a year in the US dying from gun shot wounds surely means something must be wrong (whether it be guns, culture or greed).

15000, out of how many quadzillion yanks is that? Perhaps there are other countries just as bad/good as the 'Mericans but they dont have the population to show such as figure as 15000? :2guns:

FROSTY

11th July 2004, 13:17

I agree with previous posts. If you wanna start an argument with a Yank talk to em about banning all hand guns and automatic weapons for civillian use.
Holey cow will you get some arguments. :2guns: :2guns:

Jackrat

11th July 2004, 14:31

There's actually been four with six or more dead. (http://massmurder.zyns.com/murder.php?country=New%20Zealand)<br /><br />

Ah yes,I forgot about Mr Schlaepfer and he was jusst up the road from me at the time.Over all I think our gun laws are pretty realistic apart from some things being banned because they LOOK scary.
Frosty,I actualy did comment on the Yanks situation in my usual diplomatic way.Got banned from the site :yes:
As I had it pointed out to me in no uncertain terms, it's in their bill of rights and that's the end of discussion. :shutup:

Skyryder

11th July 2004, 15:51

One of the first forums I ever posted on was one of the American fishing forums. They also had a Backlash forum where American politics could be discussed. Backlash is a fishing term and I entered by mistake. This was a few hours after the Columbine shooting and after reading the various posts on this I posted what I thought was an innocuous thread; something about unsatisfactory behaviour (Columbine shooting) for a civilised society. The response I received was nothing short of vitriolic. I had a bit of fun with these bozo’s and then moved on to the militia forums. Might have something to do why on occasions I get very aggressive. Believe me guys if you want to know how these guys think get on to some of the milititia forums but be warned the gun lobby takes no prisoners.
The gun lobby does not trust the Federal Government or for that matter anyone else who opposes their views.

Bowling for Columbine does have a message. Moore makes a comparison betrween America and Canada. Moore’s message is that the American media accentuate the fears of white middle class Americans against American blacks. I thought that was pretty obvious.

If anyone wants to see how the gun lobby reacts to an alternative view then go to

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39d53b0e0e22.htm It’s a bit lengthy but comparatively mild to some that I’ve come across

Skyryder

Ps

The Guzzi thread was no surprise for reasons above.

Just spotted this to give an idea of their thinking

More anti-gun garbage. However as the good soldiers we are in this battle, it is good to know what is happening in the camp of the other guy. I am sure this magazine goes to literally hundreds if not thousands and tens of thousands of educators. They are the ones forming the minds of today's youth. One more reason why we home school. I don't want idiots like this spreading this type of garbage into or towards my kids.

Paul in NZ

11th July 2004, 17:32

Wierd...

Mr Moore is anti gun, anti bush anti anything except making a shit load of cash for mr Moore... I wonder when he will do an expo on the fast food industry?? I mean, I would seriously suspect Mr Moore is considerably more in danger of heart attack than a drive by shooting or being abducted by Iraqis....

Mind you... If they were gunna shoot at him... He'd be hard to miss.....

(sigh)

Not that I'm exactly svelte but....

Paul N

pete376403

11th July 2004, 17:57

Wierd...

Mr Moore is anti gun, anti bush anti anything except making a shit load of cash for mr Moore... I wonder when he will do an expo on the fast food industry?? I mean, I would seriously suspect Mr Moore is considerably more in danger of heart attack than a drive by shooting or being abducted by Iraqis....Paul N

After Farenheit 9/11 Moore is in more danger from the Republicans of the US than from any Iraqi.

Paul in NZ

11th July 2004, 18:42

After Farenheit 9/11 Moore is in more danger from the Republicans of the US than from any Iraqi.

There is a difference??

Golly! :rolleyes:

Paul N

Skyryder

11th July 2004, 19:47

Anyone who stands up to the second amenders and the Republicans (is there a difference) deserves some respect reguadless if you agree or not. Just look what happens when conservitive America sees itself under threat. King: Kennedy, both of them: Malcom X and yes even John Lennon.

Skyryder

What?

11th July 2004, 19:57

Interesting comments. I didn't think Moore was anti-gun at all. He made a valid point that Canada has more guns per capita that the Excited States, but has very little drama involving guns.
The conclusion he drew came out of what Marilyn Manson said about "fear for consumption". Maybe I am way off track, but it makes sense. People see bad shit happening all the time on TV, the mentally less secure have trouble differentiating between TV and their own reality, and "Hey Presto" we have more bad shit going down. To get the point, you need to look at the differences between the Canadian and the US newscasts. Then think about what we see on our TV news (not much good news that I can recall).
'Course I could be wrong...

Ghost Lemur

11th July 2004, 20:33

I agree What?

I think he did a good job of highlighting the merican "under seige" mentality. I don't agree completely with the way he goes about getting his message across.

I personally prefer George Carlin as my favourite Honest American. :Punk:

scumdog

11th July 2004, 21:07

I thought it was pretty good...showed just how screwed up and paranoid the Yanks can be. I mean 15,000 or whatever a year in the US dying from gun shot wounds surely means something must be wrong (whether it be guns, culture or greed).

Theres more than that die from motorbike crashes - and bikes aren't even meant for killing like guns are, lets ban all bikes. :thud:

Skyryder

11th July 2004, 22:53

I thought Heston turning his back on the photo of the little girl that was shot said it all.
Complete indifference.

Skyryder

SPman

11th July 2004, 23:31

Hoon

12th July 2004, 00:15

15000, out of how many quadzillion yanks is that? Perhaps there are other countries just as bad/good as the 'Mericans but they dont have the population to show such as figure as 15000? :2guns:

Yeah I got it wrong it was only 11,127 but apparently Canada has more guns but they only had 185 deaths? In fact if you add Japan, Germany, Canada, UK, Australia and France all together (90 million more ppl than the US) you get a grand total of 973 deaths!! Thats why I say something is seriously wrong with the US!!

Theres more than that die from motorbike crashes - and bikes aren't even meant for killing like guns are, lets ban all bikes. :thud:

Not even close. Only 3,592 US motorcycle deaths for 2003 according to this site (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/newsandupdates/03crashes/). How does that compare to NZs bike to gun death ratio??

However Moore should've shown Charlton Heston a bit more respect even if he is a bit of a gun looney. Heston is the man!!

Mongoose

12th July 2004, 08:28

Not sure how it compares, but who cares, realy,who cares? Should we not look after k 1 W 1 people first and leave the poor damn Mericans do their own thing in their own country?

MikeL

12th July 2004, 08:52

leave the poor damn Mericans do their own thing in their own country?

If only!!!

moko

12th July 2004, 08:58

The USA is a society ruled by fear.Personally, I dont give a toss what they do in their own , god given, country, but when they export their fear around the world and try and make us live with the same fear that they have, then I get pissed off. And its happenning now...airport controls, war on terror, etc etc etc. Thats what we have to fear from the US.

We dont understand them at all,we`ve had shit-loads more terrorist attacks than the U.S. probably ever will have,mainly sponsored by Noraid fuckwits as well.When there was a supposed threat to the underground system being attacked with poison gas there was a comedy sketch about it on t.v. the next night,that`s the way we are,the Yanks are full of bravado then shit themselves over nothing.
We`ve got a guy called Mark Thomas that does a similar thing to Moore but without so much of the stupid stunts,he once filmed a young girl giving blair a valentines card"I love you nearly as much as you do",prat read it and the cheesy grin never budged.

Coldkiwi

12th July 2004, 12:37

and americas motorcycle death rate could probably be majorly reduced if the stupid bastards would wear helmets!

she's a scary country that one.

Coldkiwi

12th July 2004, 12:57

If anyone wants to see how the gun lobby reacts to an alternative view then go to

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39d53b0e0e22.htm It’s a bit lengthy but comparatively mild to some that I’ve come across

Skyryder

.

and here's another post from site thats not just a little bit ironic!

"The man is an idiot. To say that firearms are the cause of violence is pure lunacy. There are, as a percentage, fewer homes in America today with guns in them than have been in our entire history. The problem, as we all know, does NOT lie with the inanimate object. It lies squarely with the people, and with the general moral malaise that has overrun America. Fights that once ended with a bloody nose now result in gunshot wounds.

The same thing could have happened 30 years ago, but it didn't. Why? Guns haven't changed, so what has? That is the reality that the author and his liberal cohorts refuse to deal with. If they were possessed with an ounce of intellectual honesty, they would look at ALL the causal factors, and they would realize that the presence and availability of firearms would be at or near the bottom of their list."

so.. ummm... can gunshot wounds still occur without guns then? The rest of us still have fist fights when we get upset...possibly because most of us don't know how to get hold of a gun so easily?

Mongoose

12th July 2004, 17:41

We dont understand them at all,we`ve had shit-loads more terrorist attacks than the U.S. probably ever will have,mainly sponsored by Noraid fuckwits as well.When there was a supposed threat to the underground system being attacked with poison gas there was a comedy sketch about it on t.v. the next night,that`s the way we are,the Yanks are full of bravado then shit themselves over nothing.
We`ve got a guy called Mark Thomas that does a similar thing to Moore but without so much of the stupid stunts,he once filmed a young girl giving blair a valentines card"I love you nearly as much as you do",prat read it and the cheesy grin never budged.

Ahh yes, but the Poms are more used to it. I remember being in the UK in the 70's and all the signage that was out then for left luggage/suitcases etc due to the IRA threats and sometime attacks. :2guns:

scumdog

12th July 2004, 18:40

I thought Heston turning his back on the photo of the little girl that was shot said it all.
Complete indifference.

Skyryder

I would too if I had that fat twat ragging my arse incessantly. :Pokey:

scumdog

12th July 2004, 18:43

and americas motorcycle death rate could probably be majorly reduced if the stupid bastards would wear helmets!

she's a scary country that one.

Sometimes it's not as bad as you think, there's a lot of open four-lane freeways with a large gap between the opposite directions of travel and no "handily' placed object to run into, no intersections etc. :cool2:

Velox

13th July 2004, 01:07

There was definitely some good stuff in that movie, but there was also a fair amount of emotive, subjective rubbish that took away from what he was on about. Statistics that you couldn't compare, interviews styles that changed depending on the person being interviewed. And what was the solo black mom saga about? That seemed to really be clutching at straws. And poor old Charlton Heston - fair enough for him to walk away when some guy's carefully twisted an argument so that suddenly you're the reason why a 6 year old girl was shot by her classmate? The whole thing made me very cynical about a documentary that I'd heard so much about.
Some stuff was real good though - he made some decent points and put foward the questions that are important. I'm not bashing the whole thing - it's just not what I expected.

Lou Girardin

13th July 2004, 06:49

Moore manipulates his audience in exactly the same way that Bush's cabal manipulated the American people. The difference being that Moore only made a movie.
And isn't it strange how, in the land of the free, Moore is having problems getting mainstream distribution of Farenheit 911.
Let's not forget that it was the NRA that campaigned against the banning of teflon coated rounds (so-called 'cop killer' bullets years ago).
As for Charlton Heston's comment; "they'll prise my gun from my cold dead hand"
An article in the Herald about a woman whose NRA member, gun fanatic son killed himself after becoming disillusioned with his Army superiors in Iraq; qoted her as saying "they prised his gun from his cold, dead hand".
How apt!

James Deuce

13th July 2004, 07:11

Thanks Lou. I was getting worried that no one spotted that. Moore also stated that he was going to head down this path ofter his "Fair Go" American-style show "The Awful Truth" got canned. Moore was as surprised as anyone when "Bowling for Columbine" got nominated for a Best Documentary Oscar, when it could only fairly be called a mockumentary.

He raises some very pointed questions about how easy it is for the media to push people's "attitude" button to get the correct response. It's just that no one seems to expect propaganda from the "left" any more. I see that someone in France is indicting Dick Cheney for $US7 Billion in fraud. That will be interesting. Hmmm George Bush and Dick Cheney. Everybody knows that when you put a Dick and a Bush together you get screwed!

Ghost Lemur

13th July 2004, 13:57

Thanks Jim2, I've been waiting to see a well placed Carlin quote. :D

MikeL

13th July 2004, 16:38

There was definitely some good stuff in that movie, but there was also a fair amount of emotive, subjective rubbish that took away from what he was on about.

The "emotive, subjective rubbish" is presumably the parts you disagreed with.
Moore's film is not a "documentary". The fact that the audience is manipulated doesn't invalidate his arguments. There is no objective truth.
To attempt to counter propaganda with anything other than cleverer propaganda is likely to end in failure.

While we have Moore and The Simpsons there is hope for America.

scumdog

13th July 2004, 17:30

Quote:"Let's not forget that it was the NRA that campaigned against the banning of teflon coated rounds (so-called 'cop killer' bullets years ago)."

Lou, I think that is one of those myths like "if an M16 bullet hits a fingertip it will shatter the whole arm" and "the 357 magnum will shatter an engine block" (maybe if it's a Honda 50 block!)

I'am prepared to stand corrected re the "teflon coated bullet" thing but I think it was one of those stories started by the media who claimed the bullets were teflon coated to make it easier to penetrate bullet-proof jackets. :blink:

Hitcher

13th July 2004, 18:37

America is a land of odd a perverse contradictions -- pro-death penalty, anti-abortion being just one.

But the whole "gun" thing over there is a classic example of the folly of trying to solve a "problem" when there isn't general acceptance that there is a problem to be solved. People throw up their hands in horror when they have a Columbine but that only makes some Americans even more determined to fight fire with fire and arm themselves against whatever threats they perceive against their lives. liberty and pursuit of happiness...

Coldkiwi

13th July 2004, 18:43

Wierd...

Mr Moore is anti gun, anti bush anti anything except making a shit load of cash for mr Moore... I wonder when he will do an expo on the fast food industry??

well, luckily for your generalism Paul, someones already done one! I think there's a link on here somewhere about it but basically a director forced himself to eat Maccas for breakfast, lunch and dinner for a month while doctors monitored his progress. apparently he got sick as a dog, lost his libido, got massive headaches, tempers, put on nearly 10kg and had to take up smoking again to calm himself. I think the movies called 'supersize me' but they're having trouble finding a film studio to back it because they're all afraid of how much clout macdonalds have! shocker

as for Moore being anti-bush and anti-gun.... well... isn't Bush i kinda PRO-gun and weapons? ...Espcially of the mass destruction kind... even if hes not sure who else might have 'em.... so I guess the two really go hand in hand!!

On the surface anyway, it seems the americans are still more afraid of changing their constitution than they are of letting it become an excuse for their nation to turn itself into desensitised trigger happy paranoids.

I wonder how the suggestion to alter the constitution to 'all citizens shall have a right to apply for a tightly controlled gun licence' would go down over there? I mean Canada seems to be proof that its not the number of guns but who has access to them (and possibly having high powered assault rifles is a little OTT as well... but don't tell them i said so :2guns: )

James Deuce

13th July 2004, 20:15

Thanks Jim2, I've been waiting to see a well placed Carlin quote. :D
You're welcome. :)

I was wondering where I could use it.

I love the way Carlin narrates Thomas The Tank Engine. I can hear all sorts of subtext.

scumdog

13th July 2004, 22:46

Canada gets mentioned a bit on this thread but it has its having its own gun problems, their laws have toughened up but gun deaths rise and they have started gun registration which has a piss-poor compliance rate plus spiralling costs for a scheme that is floundering at best

Drunken Monkey

13th July 2004, 23:16

I'am prepared to stand corrected re the "teflon coated bullet" thing but I think it was one of those stories started by the media who claimed the bullets were teflon coated to make it easier to penetrate bullet-proof jackets. :blink:

Quick research indicates there is some legislature in the US specifically banning teflon- or other synthetic- coated ammunition. For example: http://www.davekopel.org/2A/IB/PreemptionOfLocalFirearmsLawBackgrounder.htm

I couldn't find anything categorically listing a box of ammo as 'teflon coated'. I can't say I ever noticed such ammo in a gun store either, but I don't look for those kinds of things, and to tell the truth it probably wouldn't be an ideal game hunting round anyway, so stocks would be limited if any.
I have often heard people say that assault rifle ammo is teflon coated. From my personal experience I understand that is complete balls - at least as far as armed forces are concerned: 5.56nato/.223, 7.62nato/.308, 5.54pact and 7.62pact are standard FMJ's = full metal jackets (steel jacketed lead, to be specific). Those four rounds encompass a large number of standard military small arms.
Granted, the cop-killers are probably specifically a handgun load - not too experienced with these. If that was the case, I would wonder why a full metal jacket round would be unavailable for handguns. Might try looking up something for 9mm Parabellum/Luger, 10mm or .45ACP = they're pretty popular handgun calibres.

Further reading: http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/copkill.html

A site search of a fairly popular ammunition manufacturer, 'Federal Cartridges', for the text field 'teflon' returned 0 results.
(http://www.federalcartridge.com/search.asp)

You may be correct there, scumdog.

scumdog

13th July 2004, 23:48

Did a bit more research and as usual the media got it wrong, the teflon coated bullets WERE made to penetrate hard surfaces, armour included, however they were made of such an extremely hard alloy that they could not "imbed" in the rifling in gun barrels so a thin metal jacket with a film of teflon was applied to them to enable the rifling to "grip" them and stabilise them for accuracy, amazing how the media can put a different "spin" on things!!! :argh:

Velox

14th July 2004, 00:18

The "emotive, subjective rubbish" is presumably the parts you disagreed with.
Moore's film is not a "documentary". The fact that the audience is manipulated doesn't invalidate his arguments. There is no objective truth.
To attempt to counter propaganda with anything other than cleverer propaganda is likely to end in failure.

While we have Moore and The Simpsons there is hope for America.

Fair enough in a way then - I watched it thinking it was going to be a factual documentary. Except if he made a movie in a more subjective style instead of "propaganda" it would be easier to believe and would leave room for people to come to their own decisions. But I guess that isn't what sells the film or attracts the viewers. And also I guess that's not what he was aiming for anyway.
PS: The 'emotive' stuff was when it just got a bit over the top, like when he left the photo of the little girl at Heston's house and music started playing as they filmed it sitting there. Maybe it's just a 'culture clash' though - a more American style.

Lou Girardin

14th July 2004, 06:49

Lou Girardin

14th July 2004, 06:53

scumdog

14th July 2004, 08:59

Quote from Lou:"They were teflon coated and they penetrated standard Police vests. That would be enough for me if I was a US cop."

The point being Lou that the teflon had very little to do with the armour piercing qualities of the projectiles yet the media drummed up that feature as what made them so deadly, how much time do you think they would have given the issue if the projectiles were just plain hardened steel? :blink:

moko

14th July 2004, 17:58

There was definitely some good stuff in that movie, but there was also a fair amount of emotive, subjective rubbish that took away from what he was on about.

Brit reviews of Farenheit 9/11 have said pretty much the same thing Velox with most reviewers agreeing with what he`s saying(as does just about everyone in Britain but being a democracy Blair wanted a war so we got one)but criticising some of the stupid stunts and o.t.t. shock tactics.to be fair he`s aiming primarily at a U.S. audience and they dont seem to go for "subtle".
O.K. So Moore`s loud,brash and all the rest of it but at least he`s managed to get a different side to 2 controversial subjects across to American audiences fed a diet of Fox News and other such crap.I`d rather a flawed,biased bloke got this stuff talked about in a country with hog-tied media than nobody at all.

Hitcher

14th July 2004, 18:15

I`d rather a flawed,biased bloke got this stuff talked about in a country with hog-tied media than nobody at all.
Agreed. I may not agree with what he says but I fully support his right to say it!

MikeL

14th July 2004, 20:30

Tonight's new Simpsons had a few relevant things to say about American patriotism...
Simply brilliant.

Drunken Monkey

14th July 2004, 23:02

Tonight's new Simpsons had a few relevant things to say about American patriotism...
Simply brilliant.

Yes, where's the line between patriotism and paranoia in the US today...

This latest series has been quite weird though.

moko

15th July 2004, 01:22

This latest series has been quite weird though.

And it`ll get weirder,all our local media have been full of the forthcoming Christmas Special featuring Lisa Simpson waving a Cornish flag and shouting "Independence for Cornwall",in Cornish.That one will baffle most of Britain let alone anyone other than a few ex-pats abroad particularly as apparently it`s not part of any story-line.

Coldkiwi

15th July 2004, 12:21

Yes, where's the line between patriotism and paranoia in the US today...

This latest series has been quite weird though.

fully agree. Quite funny and well scripted segments in there but definitely getting strange and bizarre. The whole itchy and scratchy influence seems to be coming through in other parts of the program too which is a little disturbing