UNcomfortably numb- arm pump and similar probs

[TonyB]

Nope, this is not a thread about a Pink Floyd song.
I'm just curious to see how many racers suffer from 'arm pump' or other problems of a similar nature. I'm even more curious to see how you got/get around it.

When I've done track days on the FZR, I have frequently ended up with bad arm pump as a result of holding on way too tight, coupled with 'high effort' brakes. I know what it feels like and I know that if I concentrate on relaxing it'll go away within 1 lap (it takes me about half an hour to lap Ruapuna:zzzz:)

From past experience I also know that backpack straps, or even the elastic straps of a back protector, can put my arms to sleep, so I avoid having anything pressing on the area between chest and shoulder.

On Sunday, on my first BEARS outing on my Monster, a new issue surfaced- I was definitely hanging on too tight, but I also noticed that the less stretched out riding position meant that my upper arms were far closer to the upper body. I THINK this meant that the under arm seam of my leathers was blocking the circulation to my whole arm and this, combined with a death grip on the bars, was making my whole arm go numb. NOT a nice feeling. Within the space of one lap the loss of strength this caused would mean I went from easy 1 fingered braking to barely-able-to-stop- holey-shit-Im-going-to-die 3 fingered braking. This of course triggered all of the usual "survival reactions"- not looking ahead etc etc. Things were so bad I had trouble holding on tight enough to twist the throttle...

I'm sure its the seam thats doing it- if I put one hand under my arm and then hang that arm loosely by my side the effect is similar to tying a tourniquet around it- in a short time blood vessels swell up etc. I also know that if I sleep with arms by my side but over a sheet and thin duvet (ie the covers are up under my arm pits) I'll wake up with almost completely 'dead' arms- after quite a bit of exertion I can get them to slide upwards and over my head- can't lift them up for a few minutes though.

So in a nutshell- has anyone else struck this??? If so, what the hell do you do to stop it?? Is this why so many Motard riders ride with their elbows sticking out like wings???

[Buddha#81]

When you get back to the pits if your arms are asleep have a wank and it will feel like someone else is doing it.:yes: :gob: :love: :done:

[TonyB]

Sounds like you have a fair bit of experience with this :sick:

[Buddha#81]

I did live in Waiouru for 5 years it does give the sheep a break, Barbara liked watching though.

[gav]

Nah, Motard guys race like that from there MX background, dubbed the "Attack Mode"!. Do you have a bigger set of leathers to try, to see if that makes a difference? Do you stretch your fingers and wrists before starting? Pull the tops of your fingers back towards your body, should feel the muscles in your wrists stretch (carpel muscle?) Also rotate your wrists around as well.

[Buddha#81]

Or have a wank!

[Motu]

Back in the '90's MX riders used to have surgery to cut a muscle sheath to stop arm pump - the new generation of MX riders has possibly be geneticaly bred to remove this defective gene.

[WRT]

I havent tried it myself, but have seen some testimonials by top level MX riders that swear by this (probably sponsors) arm pump spray. Two quick places to get it from:

dirtbike.co.nz (http://www.dirtbike.co.nz/default.asp?pageid=69#)
($20)

trademe.co.nz (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-accessories/Other/auction-76753090.htm)
($25, but money back guarantee)

[Nonbeliever]

Try to relax whenever possible during a lap, you shouldn't be gripping the bars so tight anyway.

BTW, how does a FZR qualify for BEARS??

[Joni]

Tony get one of those powerball things - it strengthens your lower arm quite a bit... we just got one, its great! :yes:

[onearmedbandit]

He was on the Monster Nonbeliever.

I get arm pump as well, I loosen my grip on the bar and find it goes away.

[Toast]

Use the pegs and tank for body stability, your arms can be more relaxed and you'll be far less likely to get arm pump. Also the added benefit that the front can react to bumps without the burden of your weight through the bars.

[judecatmad]

So in a nutshell- has anyone else struck this??? If so, what the hell do you do to stop it??

I get this all the time - even when driving a car. Only in my left arm/hand. It's really annoying.

The only way I can sort it out is to hang my arm down at my side and shake/pump my hand a bit.

Of course, I'm not ever going speeds at which it's not possible to take one hand off the handlebars (or steering wheel) so mine's not such an issue - just an annoyance.

If you find a cause/solution for it - I'd be interested to hear :)

[Nonbeliever]

He was on the Monster Nonbeliever.

.

Ahh I see. I thought he was refering to his FZR as a "monster".

[diesel pig]

You just have to relax abit Tony! Pick spots on the track you are on that you don't have to hold on tight for, like Ruapuna for example one can relax on the front straight for Oh 5 or 10 seconds at least and 2-3 seconds on the back straight between the kink and the hairpin:yes:

[mart1]

20 pushups a day and stretch fingers, forearms before a ride. Also try not to let your arms take all your body weight, use your back aswell.
Works for me.

[TonyB]

Lets see.
Gav- yep, stretch my arms constantly. Nope- no bigger leathers, might try a shorter back protector though.
Joni- so those powerball things actually work? I just dismissed them as the usual 'as seen on TV' crap.
Motu- I had big problems with the old carpal tunnel muscle whatsit back when I did a bike courier run. I always use the clutch, so I was doing 100's of gear changes a day. From memory my left hand would get BAD pins and needles at night, over everything except the little finger and outside of the palm. Used to drive me insane(r). Thats not whats happening at the moment.
DP, OAB etc- yep, am well aware that I need to relax. Its just that this is affecting my upper arms which have never had a problem before, despite that fact that I hold most of my weight on my triceps with the Bucket/FZR and no weight on the Monster. It seems back the front. Will start doing some pressups, and I need to get back out on my MTB- thats very good for strengthening arms, funnily enough. The problem actually goes away through the corners and is at its worse at the first right hander.
Might give that spray a go- it's cheap enough.

Just out of curiosity- If I squeeze a set of bathroom scales with both hands I can get it around to about 85-90kg. Would that be normal, or a tad on the weak side?

[Shaun]

Get in touch with Dom Jones Tony, he has had that drama and has been shown some very good ways to help the scenario

[TonyB]

Funny you should say that Shaun- Peter sent me an email suggesting just that. He outlined his findings and said post them if you want, so....

1) The solution (hopefully) comes from applying many small changes, no one big one. (How most probelms are solved!)

2) Arm pump is a slang term, very american, very motocross related. There are two categories, possibly overlap as well


1)Cramp, which is related to nutrition, fitness, relaxation, hydration etc. To identify this it generally passes within a few hours, no residual discomfort. You can picture this amongst riders who travel long distances, living on pies, beer and cigarettes and little sleep.

2) Compartment Syndrome. This is common with Road Racers, (Freddie Spencer had it really bad) board sailers and long distance runners (in their calves) This characterised by muscle shut down of strength, pain and loss of feeling in the parts beyond. ie the hand. On the right side of course this means loss of control of brakes and throttle. Recovery from this can be as long as a week. From what we can see this is congenital, or caused by accident damage to the "layout" of the arm muscles, nerves and blood vessels. In either case, often an operation is performed called a fasciotomy, which "relieves" the tissue compartment surrounding the muscle. From what we can tell it works really well.

Suggest you Google search "compartment syndrome" which gives quite a bit of info.

[Ivan]

As chopper would say

Harden the fuck up and grow a mostuche:mellow:


Nah I get it in my leg muscles after wards though it hurts but yeah

[TonyB]

Freddie Spencer aparently used to do pretty much the whole race with his butt about 1 inch off the seat. Surely he gave himself a break on the straights?!? Either way, imagine the leg strength and endurance that would take- remember this GP length racing, not 4 to 6 laps like we do here

[gav]

And when he raced the 250 and 500 in the same season, the extra load basically wore him out. Don't forget it wasnt just the racing but the practice and qualifiying sessions as well, literally climbing off one bike and hopping onto another.

[Joni]

Joni- so those powerball things actually work? I just dismissed them as the usual 'as seen on TV' crap. Yeah I reckon one will help for sure.... strenghthen your muscles using it and then apply the other suggestions made here and I reckon you would be in a stronger place on the track :yes: Every bit helps I reckon...

It takes some time to get used to the thing and to really get it moving... just keep at it, oh and get one of the "heavier" ones, ours goes to 12kg's, I think its perfect for me, but too light for Kick.

[FROSTY]

Tony --Probably repeating other peoples advice.
I used to get arm pump really bad.
Nowadays how I get over it is 3 things
1)hydration--drinking heaps during the day
2) Being relaxed --its all in the head to a fair degree --use the straights to relax ya upper body and even shake the arm thats pumped worse
3) LAPS -plain n simple mate--the more ya do the more race fit your body becomes-it has two effects-Your body becomes more "race fit" and you relax more as you get comfortable on the beast.

Another huge difference has been getting my leathers tailored to fit me -ON the bike

[Mr. Peanut]

Lets see. Just out of curiosity- If I squeeze a set of bathroom scales with both hands I can get it around to about 85-90kg. Would that be normal, or a tad on the weak side?

A tad on the strong side, I only got 84, but that could be the scales.

[gav]

Yeah I reckon one will help for sure.... strenghthen your muscles using it and then apply the other suggestions made here and I reckon you would be in a stronger place on the track :yes: Every bit helps I reckon...

It takes some time to get used to the thing and to really get it moving... just keep at it, oh and get one of the "heavier" ones, ours goes to 12kg's, I think its perfect for me, but too light for Kick.

So what you're saying is Kickaha needs bigger balls........:dodge: :yes:

[Kickaha]

So what you're saying is Kickaha needs bigger balls........:dodge: :yes:

well if I needed a bigger belly I'd know who to see :bleh:

[gav]

Hmmm, Spudracer?

[Bren_chch]

:laugh: :laugh:

[Buddha#81]

Hmmm, Spudracer?

Not very sporting, you will keep.:dodge:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah I reckon one will help for sure.... strenghthen your muscles using it and then apply the other suggestions made here and I reckon you would be in a stronger place on the track :yes: Every bit helps I reckon...

It takes some time to get used to the thing and to really get it moving... just keep at it, oh and get one of the "heavier" ones, ours goes to 12kg's, I think its perfect for me, but too light for Kick.

Actually Joni, I hate to say this, but they're the last thing someone with arm pump needs. Building up muscles is not the go......being limber and relaxing the grip on the bars will help....big forearm muscles will make things worse.

[Joni]

Actually Joni, I hate to say this, but they're the last thing someone with arm pump needs. Building up muscles is not the go......being limber and relaxing the grip on the bars will help....big forearm muscles will make things worse.I apreciate your experience in this, so I wont argue, but will ask for your reasoning.

I was not suggesting he build muscle at all, I was suggesting a bit of strenthening of the muscle groups, however as I said also take all the other advice into consideration, relaxation and not gripping the grips is a huge part I agree, seeing Tony races maninly at Ruapuna the advice DP gave was great...

So if I am agreeing with you but did not voice what I was saying properly apologies... if you still dont agree with me I would love to know why, it would be educational for me as it does not make logical sence.

[TonyB]

What he means is that arm pump is often caused by over developed muscles squashing the nerves in the carpal tunnel, or in other areas. Read Kenny Roberts' book- he had arm pump and assumed he was too weak, so he did more and more strength training, only to find the problem got worse and worse.

[Joni]

Yes I get that Tony, I was never suggesting over developed muscles... anyway I will shut up now, obviously Im putting my point across well.

Good luck with your problem...

[TonyB]

sweet. I should add that in my case I think some strength training would fix most of the problem. And time on the bike will help too, cause i'll be a whole lot more relaxed.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yes I get that Tony, I was never suggesting over developed muscles... anyway I will shut up now, obviously Im putting my point across well.

Good luck with your problem...

Yeah sorry Joni....I was taking it as you were suggesting building the muscles up in the forearm...a no-no.
I raced moto-x on 500cc 2 strokes from a young age, and being a runt of a man always struggled with arm pump. I read a lot about it and just about every book by the moto-x greats advised against forearm excercises of any sort. Learning to relax your grip and hold the bike with your knees/legs was the simple answer. If you have a look at the moto gp bikes, alot of the smaller riders have a huge foam pad on the rear cowling to hold them in place under accelleration. This stops them having to hang on with their arms inducing arm pump.

[Shaun]

I apreciate your experience in this, so I wont argue, but will ask for your reasoning.

I was not suggesting he build muscle at all, I was suggesting a bit of strenthening of the muscle groups, however as I said also take all the other advice into consideration, relaxation and not gripping the grips is a huge part I agree, seeing Tony races maninly at Ruapuna the advice DP gave was great...

So if I am agreeing with you but did not voice what I was saying properly apologies... if you still dont agree with me I would love to know why, it would be educational for me as it does not make logical sence.



Your advice was based on info you have been given, but perhaps that info was not givin to you clearly enough, nor explained well

Exercise for these muscle's is Perfect! But it must be the correct type of exercise!

PUSHUPS Tony, and exercise that actually works and stretches the muscle at the same time is the go, purely building muscle mass will compound the issue, you must exercise, but 100% critical that you do an exercise that really stretches the muscle at the same time.

Try to avoid doing anything with that arm that would or could be to repetitive, ie hammering etc, make sure you Hydrate well, get some Vultarin cream and rub into the arm at least 1 hour before riding ( Anti Flam ajent)

Go talk to Vaughn about health based products that may help

[TonyB]

Its interesting that the subject of stretching has come up. The natural relaxed position for my hands when my arms are by my side is kind of hook shaped. The ends of the fingers are often at 90° to my palms. I normally do pressups on my knuckles with the hjands in a fist, cause doing them palms don is pretty uncomfortable. Looks like stretching is the go.

[laRIKin]

These may be worth a try.

http://www.fuggles.netfirms.com/

PS: It's a NZ site

[TonyB]

Problem solved!
I had so many people telling me "you need to relax", "you're holding on too tight", "it's all in your head" etc that I had started to believe they were right.

BUT- after the last have a go day, I sat down and had a bloody good think about it. I had gotten much worse- to the point where my entire arms were completely stuffed after 2 laps. Not just the wrists and forearms, but the ENTIRE arm. Think about it- if you grabbed a pair of handlebars and grabbed them with your arms tensed up, would YOUR arms become completely exhausted after 4 minutes??? I mean exhausted to the stage where you struggle to pull in the brake lever, or hold your body up, or even twist the throttle?

So I analysed it.

The problem has gotten progressively worse.
I never used to have this problem- not like this, yes I had pins and needles in my hands after a long ride, but not this.
I used to ride 100's of kilometres a day at speeds I'm not putting on here- never had this problem.

The only things that were different were-

the new bike
newish leathers
and the fact I'd gained a fair bit of weight.


I had experienced a milder version of the problem when I had the FZR on the track, wearing the same leathers. But I was also lighter then.

So the only truly new variable was the extra weight. I decided the leathers could be too tight and cutting off the circulation to my arms. So I rang Dangerous and borrowed his. The jacket was a size or two bigger, and much more comfy.

I hit the track, and lapped for 20 minutes in the rain, holding on too tight, with no sign of the problem!!!! The relief was .... indescribable. I was VERY happy. So happy in fact, that when Dangerous said "Are you sure it's not all in your head- you are expecting it to work, so it did", I didn't attempt to kill him!:nono:

[Shaun]

Haha ya plonker

[TonyB]

Haha ya plonker

:rolleyes: hey it's not easy to tell, it's not like they're skin tight or anything. The seam at the front of the shoulder is just slightly tight.

[gav]

I'd be asking the importer of those leathers for my money back if I was you.... :innocent:

[TonyB]

I'd be asking the importer of those leathers for my money back if I was you.... :innocent:

Nah- he's too broke.

[Shaun]

:rolleyes: hey it's not easy to tell, it's not like they're skin tight or anything. The seam at the front of the shoulder is just slightly tight.



Only having a laugh at your exspense mate:rockon:

[TonyB]

Only having a laugh at your exspense mate:rockon: Join the club

No offense taken

[Toaster]

Tony get one of those powerball things - it strengthens your lower arm quite a bit... we just got one, its great! :yes:

I'd rather get the powerball thingy in Lotto!

[Cleve]

I got arm pump quite badly in the first 20 lap race at the Manfeild Nat's last weekend. Jill told me to deep breath as much as I could during the 2nd 20 lap race and try to relax arms when can (only place for me to do that is the final sweeper for a few seconds...)
It helped. My arms were a lot better...

[vagrant]

Yeah sorry Joni....I was taking it as you were suggesting building the muscles up in the forearm...a no-no.
I raced moto-x on 500cc 2 strokes from a young age, and being a runt of a man always struggled with arm pump. I read a lot about it and just about every book by the moto-x greats advised against forearm excercises of any sort. Learning to relax your grip and hold the bike with your knees/legs was the simple answer. If you have a look at the moto gp bikes, alot of the smaller riders have a huge foam pad on the rear cowling to hold them in place under accelleration. This stops them having to hang on with their arms inducing arm pump.

I also noticed quite a few of the guys at Paeroa had something like skateboard anitskid deck tape on the rear of the tank and round the fairings under the seat, I guess so you would not have to grip so hard with your legs?

[Buddha#81]

Its interesting that the subject of stretching has come up. The natural relaxed position for my hands when my arms are by my side is kind of hook shaped. The ends of the fingers are often at 90° to my palms. I normally do pressups on my knuckles with the hjands in a fist, cause doing them palms don is pretty uncomfortable. Looks like stretching is the go.

Missing link! Are you sure that your knuckles wern't dragging on the ground.

[Buddha#81]

After two days in Dangerous's leathers has your hair started turning ginger yet.:sick: If you needed leathers with extra room you only had too ask.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I also noticed quite a few of the guys at Paeroa had something like skateboard anitskid deck tape on the rear of the tank and round the fairings under the seat, I guess so you would not have to grip so hard with your legs?

Yeah I've not used it, but I gather it's so they don't have to once again...try and hang on too tightly. Left feild I know....but bit like a golf glove.
If you play without one....you tend to try and grip the club too tightly, which in turn can fuck the rest of your swing up.

Motorcycles hate sudden and/or violent inputs, so if you've got yourself a good grip of it without trying.....gotta be good!

If you have a 'death grip' on the bars, you can actually be pulling on them without even knowing it.....not good.

Ask people like Shaun.....seeing as he's sick enough to ride AND win round the Isle.....he above all people will know how/why!

It can get no harder to hang onto a race bike than round there!

[Kickaha]

If you needed leathers with extra room you only had too ask.

He didn't need a set he could fit the whole family in :lol: