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andy1
23rd May 2003, 21:21
well i was wondering, does anyone know what the main cause for motorcycle accidents is?

i have had three bad ones, i am recovering from one which was a week ago, i suffered a broken collar bone, a bad k.o and scrapes on my legs. i remember nothing about the accident, until i awake in a bed in hospital where i spent the night. i have broken 3 bones, 2 k.o and i have had 18 stitchs in my leg and a lot of scrapes while i have been riding.

i now need to make a chose weither to keep riding or stop until im older. i love to ride my motorcycle. should i keep riding?? i know there is racing but its a cost and time which i dont have.
maybe i am over reacting about this, has anyone suffered bad motorcycle accidents? not just a slide down the road, but a serious one.
sorry to bring this up. help would be awesome.

wari
23rd May 2003, 21:32
Wouldn't like to see you give up mate ... but I wouldn't like to hear you're dead either !

Some more info on the accidents would help ...

SpankMe
23rd May 2003, 22:15
When I started riding I had more accidents than I can count on my fingers and toes. :o I totaled 5 motorbikes, but the worst injuries I got was a couple of broken ribs and some scrapes. Everyone at work started calling me crash. The thing you need to get used to when riding bikes is total concentration on the road surface and other vehicles. Think about what might happen and never assume the cage drivers see you.

Marmoot
23rd May 2003, 22:44
Reflection, mate. The only thing you can do now is reflect upon why you crashed. What has gone wrong? After a wee bit while we tend to forget the basics of riding and start doing dangerous habits.
Only re-learning and reminding yourself all the time will keep you alive.

About the bike, don't worry. If you don't have the dosh now, just repair it slowly.

And, if it helps at all: remember....CHICKS DIG SCARS!!! :D

Urban Terrorist
23rd May 2003, 23:27
Sorry to hear you had an accident Andy, :doctor: and I hope you heal quickly.
I'd suggest you wait till your bones have healed and some time has passed before deceiding what to do in the future. What were the causes of your previous accidents ?
If I remember correctly, more than 1/2 of all injury accidents are caused by cars invading a bikes right of way (turning in front, u-turns etc), next on the list was riding too fast for the conditions (weather, road surface, corners).
As said above, ride like they can't see you and concentrate 100% on the task at hand.
Even if you do deciede riding isin't for you, at least you gave it a good shot, and got out alive.

Cheers, Justin

Slim
24th May 2003, 02:56
Hope you heal quickly, Andy.

Have you thought about some advanced riding training?

Also, you didn't mention how long you've been riding, which licence you're on, and what bikes you've crashed on, or how long you'd had them.

I had four, luckily minor, accidents during the first couple of years I was riding and they were mostly due to lack of experience in what to do during unexpected situations. The only reason I got away without broken bones when I was t-boned by a c@r, was that it was a Triumph Spitfire and not a Holden fitted with bull-bars! :shit:

Antallica
24th May 2003, 08:55
I can only imagine the amount of cash that will be spent getting your bike fixed.... bugger.

I would say the main thing responsible for your crashes (and applies to mine) is the driver. You are either not as good as you think you are and/or probably pushing your luck with your usual driving/stunts.

All I can say is, shit happens. Just don't get caught ;)

Get better soon eh.

Motu
24th May 2003, 15:13
They say you can't put an old head on young shoulders - but I would hate to see that.It's bad enough seeing an old fart riding an unexciting bike at unexciting speeds.....a serious mature young person is a crime against nature.Just raise your awareness levels - practise taking IN as much information as you can...you need it ALL to stay in one piece.

bikerboy
24th May 2003, 16:51
Don't give up, you'll only reget it. I was almost in a massive accident.

After, I decided drivers were just too insane here, that biking was too dangerous, so I stopped. However, I always regretted it but wouldn't admit it. Then a close friend was diagnosed with cancer and given three months to live. Suddenly I realized how many things I put off or avoided due to risks.

If you enjoy it, keep doing it. Get advanced training, do track days to get your speed fix, whatever. From what I saw of your riding to Kawhia you are very skilled; maybe you take risks you shouldn't, only you can answer these questions, maybe the accidents were totally out of your control.
I wasted six or so years of skill improvement and am now trying to catch up.

Just rest, get well and reflect on what you can do to improve. You're young and have plenty of time. Just don't waste it denying yourself things you enjoy. Life's too short and we only get one go at it!

:done:

andy1
24th May 2003, 17:09
thank u for the advise, thinking about buying a supermotard.
may help. i am bit of a crazy rider racing with bigger bikes but its the way i like to ride. i love to get my knee down a scrape round cars, and blast through the twisties. i have only come off once because i was going to fast, in hunia i got a mad tank slapper and got fired of the bike going about 150k. small bikes dont handle to well. other than that i have been hit from behind from a car also another car pulled out on me, fuck i hate some drivers.
but i guess its life, shit happens, im tired of getting hurt because someone doesnt care to look.
well thanks, laterz

Pickle
24th May 2003, 18:43
Hey , get some advance rider training, do track days to practice skills & ride like everyone is out to get you treat every other road user like they are idiots. Concentrate on your riding.

Marmoot
24th May 2003, 22:36
Well, if you're quiting sportbike, at least you've proven enough. Defeating R1 on a 250 is not a small feat :)

Motoracer
25th May 2003, 00:22
I'am looking forward to ride with you when you get a supermoto. Its not like I would be able to keep up probably, but I'll give it my best.:)

bluninja
25th May 2003, 13:05
Get well soon Andy. I've only had one road traffic accident; it was on a bike....and it could well have been my last. I had soft tissue damage to both thighs, shoulders, upper arms, one forearm, and one knee and lower leg (takes longer to heal than a fracture!). The insensitive bitch that had replaced the caring nurse for the day suggested that I wouldn't seriously consider getting back on a bike after this....turns out she had crashed her car 5 times.....and she still drove!

I ordered my next bike whilst still unable to use my crutches to get around :D

2 years on and I ride slower on the road (and track) than I used to, and my confidence is only slowly improving. On the road there is no right or wrong if you are on a motorcycle, just whether you end up hurt or not. A good advanced riding course that helps you with hazard awareness and gives you strategies and skills to make sure you don't get hurt is well worth it.....and that doesn't mean you pootle around like an old fart either. Take your time and decide what you want to do.

TTFN

750Y
26th May 2003, 11:23
Some great perspectives here guys.
the cars will always be there, the risks won't go away but as people pointed out you can help reduce them by learning to ride smarter(and practising that). make your own mind up. I've had those moments while lying in a hospital bed when i tried to weigh it all up. stop riding on the road and you will have less risk in your life. it's that simple. my life motto is ...do what makes you happy.

wkid_one
26th May 2003, 18:49
I reckon there are two main causes for accidents - other factors (car/gravel etc) or confidence exceeding capacity.

Unfortunately, the nature of two wheels is that when something goes wrong - invariably you are going to fall off - it sucks - but it is motorcycling.
Yeah - racing is great - but show me a racer who has never fallen off...plus you still have to pay for the parts anyway.

Ultimately, you either live with the fact you may fall off or quit.  Or given most accidents happen within 1km of home - you could move?

The only real solution to reducing accidents is experience - knowing when to avoid certain 'hazards' etc - it is all about saddle time.  Knowing when to expect cars to pull out, knowing when to expect kids to run out etc.....is about experience. 

Track Time and Advanced training is great - but extremely contrived as you know a hazard is coming.  Yes - it will teach you to avoid hazards ONCE THEY HAVE HAPPENED - but you will never practice the skills enough for them to be second nature.  The idea is to avoid hazards BEFORE THEY HAPPEN - ie pre-empt them - and that like anything is experience of knowing where they are likely to occur.

Also - reaction times are important - something which has been demonstrated in scientific studies can only be marginally improved - you will be stunned to know - I have the same reaction times and Michael Schumacher (as most of you do) - what makes him better - he has experience behind a race wheel and the knowledge of the tracks etc....same as riding.

Unfortunately it is a case of taking the good with the bad - you may never have another accident the rest of your life (or you may have one tomorrow) - but who wants to live in cotton wool to avoid it! 

The other thing is trust you bike - if it is well serviced - you will usually chicken out well within the limits of the bike - a lot of accidents occur because the rider gave the bike incorrect inputs at the wrong time because of panic - eg sudden braking in a corner, rolling off throttle, or standing the bike up - where you should in fact be doing the opposite.

It is just that the cost of learning from these mistakes has a higher price on a bike.

 

Kwaka-Kid
26th May 2003, 18:54
nice1 750Y

dude i reckon keep riding! ive had my fair share i feel and am definatly going to keep on riding, and even if u think u shudnt, DO! :P we need all the riders we can get

i was told hte biggest cause of death of motorcyclists involved in accidents is a broken top leg part (fema? somtrhing like that) and the bone marrow leaking out.. :S

Redstar
26th May 2003, 20:08
Editied off potentiallly bad advise?

bluninja
26th May 2003, 20:43
On left handers you should be close to the centre line so that you have maximum visibility....ie you can see the gravel earlier...but you never sacrifice grip for a good vantage point.. The problem with left handers is that you have the camber in your favour until you cross the centre line and then it goes away from you....so if you screw up and cross the line then you suddenly have the road (comparitively) going away from you and it's much harder to get back. You're also into any oncoming traffic.I guess you are also more at risk on left handers of cars cutting the corner to your side of the road.

As for cause of death KK....well a fractured femur is going to lose you a couple of litres of blood from internal bleeding, which could easily kill you from medical shock without prompt attention.

WKID, only problem with experience is that you have to survive each new experience. With good training you can use other riders experience and tried and tested systems to avoid having to learn some things by yourself.....The CAVEAT of course is that you have to practice and practice and practice........maybe that's the real difference between you and Schumaker, not the reaction times.

TTFN

Redstar
26th May 2003, 20:52
shit I never did know my left from my right? anyway the above is right or left you know what I mean?

Redstar
26th May 2003, 21:06
Edited off bad advise.

wkid_one
27th May 2003, 19:05
The aim on any corner is to go through it with the minimal amount of lean at the maximum speed possible.  The more you lean - the slower you have to be travelling. 

ON public roads - Si is right - staying out and turning late is a good idea as it allows you time to 'see' the corner and make adjustments PRIOR to committing to your line.

Catch 22 tho Simon - is not riding a bike practicing?  Yes training is good - however it also creates a false sense of security.  Similarly - how many people have crashed on Puke - because they feel secure as they know the track and their bike and push too hard.  Most accidents are caused by rider capacity (if not by external influences).  Keith Code touches on the 7 adverse reactions riders have in TOTW2.  One day of rider training is not going to overcome this - but experience will.  Yes - rider training is good - however that in itself is not the answer - it is a very contrived situation through the nature of the teachings.  Does Defensive Driving courses make youngers drivers better??  I don't think so.

You have to make yourself let go of the brake in the corner and fight every instinct that is normal.  KK's crash (sorry Mate) was an example of this - had he stayed down and on the throttle he would have made the corner - but our brain is a powerful enemy on a bike.  We need to condition it to riding a bike.

We are no doubt saying the same point - experience is important - as is training - however training by itself will never be any good.  Experience will however.  How many people have you seen that make excellent riders but have never had a training course in their life?

You are never going to stop some accidents as their are idiots on the road.  Training shows you how to avoid accidents - but not how to spot them before they happen - which is my point.

I argue that in order to avoid car drivers - you need to be one.  By driving a car - you naturally position yourself and think like a car driver when in traffic.

aff-man
27th May 2003, 19:29
No serious accidents for me but went sliding down the road on my arse the first week riding, lucky no cars around just one mate who i was following saw me go sliding down the road in his rear views. Then i did it again a week later going around a corner all by myself almost landed under a car luckily just re-bloodied my legs. Some new tires and a few tips from more experienced riders and a havn't had any accidents in like the last year and a bit. The thing i found most usefull was to go for rides with more experienced riders and watch thier lines body positions ect.. and ask if you want to know there are always heaps of people willing to help!! :rockon:

bluninja
27th May 2003, 19:53
Originally posted by Redstar

They reckon its better to throw a slide if the shit hits the fan have go full frontal into the rear of a truck.

What utter BOLLOCKS:angry2:Redstar, I know you were only passing on advice, but if I had heeded this advice I would have been dead. I would hate for someone else to take on this advice and end up that way.

When you slide (uncontrolled) you have no control of the bike, you can't steer, you can't brake, and the friction generated by the side of your bike is about a tenth of what you get from your tyres. Sure you could get lucky and slide under the truck miss the wheels and come out the other side:gob:

More likely you hit the truck going faster than you would on the brakes. Depending on your level of skin protection, you could slide down the road abraded down to the bone....and then hit bike and truck with more force than if you stayed on the bike. If you reckon you could dive or slide out of the path of the truck, then you could certainly have steered out of the way.

Always brake until virtually the moment of impact trying to position the bike to go around the obstruction. If you can't miss it, try jumping over (cars not trucks or tractors) or using your arms and legs to slow down your impact whilst your front wheel crumples before you physically hit (at a reduced speed).

BTW WKID we are saying the same sort of thing.....training to learn skills and safe systems, riding specifically practicing them so they work for you and become part of your riding habits. But you have to want to do it....possibly why defensive driving doesn't work on teenagers. It's a shame I didn't read TOTW2 BEFORE my accident, I would have avoided it....and that would be training/learning over experience.

TTFN

 

Marmoot
27th May 2003, 22:32
Be careful.....
Good Judgements come from experience.
Unfortunately, experience most likely comes from bad judgements.

:o

Kwaka-Kid
28th May 2003, 04:56
*reading posts/advice carefully to take in*  except on the gs1000 im on atm it doesnt matter about any of this advice etc :P its purely that you have to take it REALLY easy, because i can bruised fingures from ripping the front brake in so hard and it still stops 5x slower then any other car/bike out there, and is friggin sore! (its gotta VT250 brake level/resivoir) and its not big enuf i dont think to push the brake fuild needed, dunno, and also the throttle staying jammed slightly open never helps, it becomes like a 2 stroke, no engine brakeing.  and lastly having a square 20yo hard rear tyre, and a round but bald front tyre makes the bike feel very odd when hte front wants to lean but the rear gets about 20%lean and doesnt want to go any further,, and when u get it passed that point its all very very fast @ wanting to fall over or come back up to balance point.  ahahha the fun of it, about the only bike ill admit that scares me when i try to ride it the way id like to be able to.  Anyone want a ride on it to find out for themselves? Rear tyre has not gone visibly down in tread in over 10,000k's, and many unintentional burnouts @ 50-100kmph :niceone:

Dave
28th May 2003, 10:37
sounds like we'll be reading about your crash next KK,
by the way-is that your new bike in the picture?

bikerboy
28th May 2003, 13:32
I hope the new bike has all the proper parts and decent tires KK.

If not I don't fancy my chances on the track with you around.:o

If you see me at the track in the future please give me a signal so I'll know when to panic!:D

Kwaka-Kid
28th May 2003, 16:24
well yes tahts my new bike (or an identical one) but im prolly modding a full race TZR250 fairing i have lieing around from the old days onto it, and selling all street gear as mike @ mt eden is very keen on it, pla yswapsies for ZXR400 parts.  um yeah this bikes alrite, atm it has less then legal front tread and 30% rear tread, i said id buy new tyres before i raced but im not sure now.. apparently they wear out after a race day or so? i cant afford that!

and dont worry BB, the signal is the loud scraping sound coming from behind as half the parts on the bike are hanging and touching the ground :)  - haha wont forget when i crashe my ZXR400 @ puke, the tank literally flew from corner 1 down to the start of the backstreight, like 100m :P with a FULL tank of gas! :P haha because i didnt have it bolted down, and as i was riding i noticed it was jumping around into my belly for the first 2 laps, hahah the rush jobs and most random things you forget to put on, oh yeh like last time i forgot to put the R clip in the rear wheel :P imagine the fun i woulda had if it hada come off :P haha!, oh and the time b4 that @ Tracktime 4,  i spose its long enuf away that i can mention, i rubbed dirt thick over some of tyre so when it got scrutineerd they wudnt see the galvanised flat head nail rammed into my rear tyre :P i only found it the night before! (or maybe 2 days before, but still wasnt prepared to fix it in that time) fuck imagine a 190kmph blowout :P damn i was pumping some adrenalene when thinking about that on the track :) made me feel good.

SPman
28th May 2003, 17:55
:eek:   

SPman
28th May 2003, 18:04
meanwhile...............


Originally posted by andy1
well i was wondering, does anyone know what the main cause for motorcycle accidents is?
.

One of them's probably riding bikes with tyres like KK's! :doctor: :buggerd:

Inattention, Volvos,overconfidence,Vulvos,lack of skills,more fucking Volvos and just plain bad luck, sometimes!:beer:

Kwaka-Kid
28th May 2003, 19:52
the trick with my and my bikes on the track is just dont ask questions :) its better u think "hmm the bike doesnt look tooo bad.." then me tell you the jobs ive done and all the corners ive cut :p: haha, economy vs safety = economy will always win.  But nah im going to try and have my RVF400 really perfect aye.. no botch jobs on that baby, maybe just tyres-wise, dunno, they seem the biggest expense, ohh i know, Bluninja how often do you go thru tyres etc? and price etc? as much info as poss dude :) cheers!

Redstar
28th May 2003, 21:54
someone accused me of utter bollocks advice?
like if you take it you'll be dead.
true I've never tested the thoery. of sliding as opposed to a full frontal attack on the back of a truck. and no I aint dead either and hell let me check my licence.. oh look 25years of death defying biking. if you read what I said it said if the shit hits the fan. so that assumes all the micro seconds of decision making have elapsed. The speed scrub off is done and the choice is the the metal back end of a 25 tonne immovable object or a slide
you decide then and we will compare notes pearly gate land.:angry2:
there is hell of a lot of theory but most dead people never get to explain.

Kwaka-Kid
29th May 2003, 04:54
am i sensing some servre hostility in the air here today? pr am i just tired because ive been up for the last hour? -waking up so early kinda sucks

bluninja
29th May 2003, 10:15
Redstar I stand by what I said...utter bollox...that advice. I've been there with a tractor (shouldn't have allowed myself to be in that dangerous place in the first place) and survived, unlike my bike which was trashed. Had I slid, even at the last moment I would still have hit faster than staying on the brakes right to the end (it takes motoGP riders half a second to get their bikes over....think how much speed you can scrub in half a second....and are you really that good that you can get your bike on it's side in under half a second?)....oh and had I slid under, between or in front of the wheels then he would have run me over cos he carried on driving across the road for 10 metres after impact.

So in your 25 years of staying alive you've never tested your theory...why not take advice from somebody that has researched their theory and survived when it had to be put into practice ? If you think I'm still being harsh on the advice well do me a favour; sit down and work out the impact speeds of the various scenarios  to see which offers the best chance of impact survival. Then work out how far away from the vehicle you would have to be to get it on it's side in time....then work out if you can acurately measure that distance by sight in all conditions....maximum braking is a simple and effective way of increasing your chances of survival. Who knows you may even stop before you hit....something you wouldn't do if you opted for a slide.

Just offering old wives tales, illogical or unresearched advice is not a good way to improve things. And before you get all your emoticons in a twist remember it is the advice that I'm attacking, not you. 

TTFN

Kwaka-Kid
29th May 2003, 16:24
Hard man Hard man... :p: hahaha! if it was me id be feeling pretty damn well shot down right about.. Now! :p: but then again im only 17 and have alot to learn about advice etc :p:

Redstar
29th May 2003, 17:34
I,ve given this some thought and hate to admit it cause I like a good debate but the man has a point the whole argument is far to nebulus anyway because its all conditional.

I get the Megarider newsletter and my comment was based an a case history so I wasnt being totally uninformed

speed road conditions visability,options so yep It was twat advise to even offer advise for the risk of misunderstanding of even good advise.

If I can savour some pride from this though Id say you cant really separate critical comment on advise, from critical comment on the giver on the basis of this logic.

I say to my wife "hey babe your fat" but dont take it personally its your fatness I am commenting on not you..

I could have taken initial offence at the utter bollocks comment
more than the logic of your argument? pehaps I think this advice presents some risks might have been more acceptable to me?

I dont mind the utter bollocks approach so long as you dont though?

If you get my point? Im going back to edit out my advise on the basis of your comment and the risk it presents.

Hope we have reached common ground cause im

:done: :done: :done:

Dave
29th May 2003, 17:38
We have a politician among us-very smooth

bluninja
29th May 2003, 17:59
Try this formula....

   x =  x0 + (v0 * t) - (1/2 * a * tē)

where:

      x = distance traveled (metres)
     x0 = starting distance (metres - or take 0.5 seconds * v0 as your time to react and get the brakes on)
     v0 = initial velocity  (metres per second or divide kmh by 3.6)
      t = stopping time     (seconds)
      a = deceleration rate (metres per second per second 1g = 9.81 which you won't get on the road so multiply this by 0.6 to get a better aproximation of 'normal' conditions).

Also since v = a * t you can get an idea of the rate of slowdown for a given braking force...so 0.6g of braking would slow you by 21 kmh each second. Guessing that your skin and leathers slow you at 70% (optomistic) of your bikes braking you would actually hit 6 kmh faster if you dumped 1 second before impact. The higher the actual braking force on your bike the bigger the difference between your impact speed on bike versus sliding down the road.

And for empirical evidence of this effect go and watch a few vids of bikes racing and sliding. The bike slides faster than the rider, and the following riders are able to brake and slow much quicker than either the fallen rider or their bike.

&nbsp;<!--mstheme-->:done:

bluninja
29th May 2003, 18:14
Damn....I go off and get the math and it's all gone away:argh:

Redstar maybe we can have a good debate about how people identify with their thoughts and well intentioned advice:D Yes I could have approached it differently, but in this case I wanted to provoke response to advice that has already crept into motorcycling mythology and accepted wisdom, with people no longer challenging it's source or validity. Especially when the results are potentially fatal.

And yes I have no problems with you referring to my diatribe as utter bollox. If I've not though things through or I'm plainwrong, bring it to my attention. I don't have problems with people disliking, disagreeing, or ignoring my views, advice or thoughts.

BTW if you called me fat, I wouldn't be offended....I went to a hotel the other day and said to the guy behind the desk "Do you mind if I look round?" he replied "You look round to me you fat bugger!":gob:

Kwaka-Kid
29th May 2003, 20:39
i quit skool for a reason, dont make me quit kiwibiker. :angry2:

hahahhaa! and i&nbsp;passed skool C maths.. and i passed 6th form physics.. but was always told you never really need it in real life... well thats kinda true, but you still need it in the E-World :P you guys and ur blimmin E-Debatse and ur E-Physics and all the rest :P hahaha! ohh it makes me laugh because i am not reading any posts with any math crap in them at all :P sorry simon :Oops:

Redstar
29th May 2003, 21:15
e=mc2
Politician um, is that good or bad? im sure keen to get us on the bus lanes.

bluninja
30th May 2003, 08:22
If someone called me a politician, I'd be more offended than if they said I was fat:D

KK so what did you get in english??...at skool:) Funnily enough I had to do loads of physics, applied mechanics and thermodynamics stuff to qualify as an engineer. Apparently it's quite useful when you are looking at the potential for tunging and engine too......but most people don't use it cos we all know tuning is a masonic black art:cool:

&nbsp;

TTFN

Kwaka-Kid
30th May 2003, 16:00
well i the highest score in 6th form was transactional writing with 82% :) and then the years average i got a grade 2 or 3, 6 is just a pass (50% if you will)

and pjysics i got a 4.&nbsp;&nbsp; oh and 5th form english, farout that was ages ago, hmm,&nbsp; too hard to think, but i got it, and electronics, and i cant remember other subjects, it gets difficult when u get older to remember skool days. but i do remember in 6th form scoring 2nd highest in MRGS 6th form in both I.T and Business Studies :) bahaha, my mother went nutz when i told her i dont need it coz im only going to be a constable all my life :P mahahaha! :D

bikerboy
30th May 2003, 16:11
:argh: And we wouldn't want an educated constable now would we?

I meant over educated! :Oops: