Just fill your car with water and step on the gas

[degrom]

Friday November 24, 2006

Motorists are set for a hydrogen boost next month when vehicles are fitted with an American device that splits hydrogen from water and uses it to boost the fuel supply.

The hydrogen is injected into petrol or diesel engines to save fuel and reduce emissions, and vehicles will run for about 80 hours before needing a refill of their distilled water.

The fuel system - the Hydro-charger - will be launched in Queenstown on December 11.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/9/story.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10412142


What is this all about ? Is it for real?

Or is it BULL...

[McJim]

I'd like to see some more techie shit about this.

Theoretically the energy required to split the water molecules should be equal to the energy you get released when they bond...so if the splitting gets its energy from the car (electricity) and the car gets it's energy from the subsequent bond (combustion) where does the energy to make the car go forward come from?

I'm no physicist but it defies basic logic - so where's the clever bit?

Or is it a hoax?

[vifferman]

I'd like to see some more techie shit about this.

Theoretically the energy required to split the water molecules should be equal to the energy you get released when they bond...so if the splitting gets its energy from the car (electricity) and the car gets it's energy from the subsequent bond (combustion) where does the energy to make the car go forward come from?

In fact, at present it takes MORE energy to split the two than you get from it, so what's the point? It's about as dumb as using fossil fuels to make hydrogen and getting much less energy as a result, as a given volume of hydrogen produces far less oomph than the same volume of a complex hydrocarbon like, say, petroleum distillates f'rexample.

But at least it doesn't contribute to globular yawning...

[Disco Dan]

It appears to be a suppliment to petrol/diesel in vehicles rather than a complete replacement. The article stated emmsion reductions of up to 70% which indicates the hydrogen will suppliment the fuel to improve efficiency.

That was my interpretation anyway.

[degrom]

What exactly is a 70% more efficient petrol engine?

A normal petrol engine runs at about 25% efficiency, the rest of the energy generated is wasted as forms of heat and noise. So for a engine to be 70% more efficient it needs to run at 42.5% overall efficiency...

This 70% extra efficiency to me sounds like Xtra's latest broad-band plans....

Unlimited broadband,if you don't download stuff...

[Disco Dan]

What exactly is a 70% more efficient petrol engine?

A normal petrol engine runs at about 25% efficiency, the rest of the energy generated is wasted as forms of heat and noise. So for a engine to be 70% more efficient it needs to run at 42.5% overall efficiency...

This 70% extra efficiency to me sounds like Xtra's latest broad-band plans....

Unlimited broadband,if you don't download stuff...

hmmm interesting... possibly they were not taking all variables into account?
They may be reffering to mileage?

Shame there is no more information on this at hand, will google later...

[Matt Bleck]

I don't think it does actually split the hydrogen out from the water.

Worked for me dad for a while doing freelance Camera work. One job was working for the Holmes show. Was great we'd just show up and go out with a journo and go chase a story. Anyway one of these stories was this old guy, say early sixtees, had this car, it was like a humber? and what he did was add atomised water, directly after the carb, in the inlet manifold? He said that because water under combustion expands by something like 70% it gaves gain to econmy, dunno about horse power gains tho.

Was a while ago so don't quote me

[jeremysprite]

And what happens when said cletis runs out of water near the sea, and pours salt water into it? Sodium forms, which reacts with the water to produce hydrogen gas and heat, which promptly explodes. Yay.
And theres a lot more dangerous stuff that could be dissolved in water.

[Laava]

I find holding my thumb on the starter button as I ride round town greatly improves my power off the mark and my overall economy!:sunny:

[onearmedbandit]

BMW have been running a 760 Hybrid Hydrogen car for the past 12 months, if not longer. Now they are planning on introducing them in limited numbers into markets with Hydrogen pumping stations.

Found (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=39669) the article (although much reduced) I saw in the press.

http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/h2r_racer.htm

(Haven't read this one)

[Donor]

I'm a dumbass, so I'll rip this and post it from my fave daily read, Aardvark.

You can find the original article at http://www.aardvark.co.nz/daily/2006/1124.shtml

**By creating hydrogen and oxygen through the electrolysis of water, using the car's alternator, the system promises fuel savings of up to 70 percent.

Okay -- so where's that 70% of extra energy coming from?

I'll admit that I'm not a chemist - so perhaps there's some fiendishly clever molecular shuffling going on when that hydrogen and oxygen are mixed with your regular petrol and burnt under high compression in a combustion chamber -- but even that would violate the laws of thermodynamics.

We're talking about gaining around a three-fold increase in energy from the petrol burnt in a car's engine. That is just plain impossible.

Modern internal combustion engines are already running at about 30% efficiency with a maximum theoretical efficiency of around 60% and the *practical* maximum efficiency is little over half that figure. The laws of physics would therefore indicate that the claimed three-fold increase in fuel-efficiency (by what ever means) is just not possible.

You'd think a trust chaired by a university professor would know that -- or at least do the research.

So, is this yet another case of a con-job based on shonky science?**

[Ixion]

I don't think it does actually split the hydrogen out from the water.

Worked for me dad for a while doing freelance Camera work. One job was working for the Holmes show. Was great we'd just show up and go out with a journo and go chase a story. Anyway one of these stories was this old guy, say early sixtees, had this car, it was like a humber? and what he did was add atomised water, directly after the carb, in the inlet manifold? He said that because water under combustion expands by something like 70% it gaves gain to econmy, dunno about horse power gains tho.

Was a while ago so don't quote me


Water injection , into the inlet manifold, which is a quite different thing to the black magic "water as a fuel" mumbo jumbo, was quite common in the 1950s.

It does work, in as much as it helps reduce detonation. Back then fuel was very low octance compared with overseas (72 octance from memory, but it was a long time ago, correct me someone). Post war cars had relatively high compression engines (in some cases a giddy 8:1) and tended to preignite badly.

Water injection helped reduce the preignition. The engine ran smoother, and usually some fuel economy benefit , and maybe even a bit more performance. Especially if the ignition had previously been retarded to avoid damage from detonation, and could now be advanced a bit

But if the engine isn't pre igniting, it has no value

EDIT From memory Gelignite Jack used to swear by it, and I guess he'd know.

[WINJA]

Im Working On A New Engine Which Will Be Featured In The Herald Next Thursday, Its A 3 Cylinder , One Cylinder Runs On Diesel One On Petrol And The Other On Granulated Charcoal ,the Petrol One Is Ignited By A Flint And Striker Arrangement In The Combustion Chamber , The Diesel Will Be Run Thru The Engine First As A Lubricant And The Charcoal For The Charcoal Cylinder Will Be Scraped From The Exhaust Pipe And Run Up A Conveyer/hopper/granulator Arrangement Back To The Top Of The Engine ........... What You Believed The Other Stories

[Disco Dan]

Okay -- so where's that 70% of extra energy coming from?

We're talking about gaining around a three-fold increase in energy from the petrol burnt in a car's engine. That is just plain impossible.



We do not know if it means more power as such, rather a more feasible scenario would be that the hydrogen powers the vehicle independently of the petrol. Ie. around town uses hydrogen, on the highway it uses petrol?

Im no expert, just trying to unpack what is written

[degrom]

I find holding my thumb on the starter button as I ride round town greatly improves my power off the mark and my overall economy!:sunny:


How could I have forgotten that we are all driving Hybrids... (The Manual kind!!!)

[Ixion]

Im Working On A New Engine Which Will Be Featured In The Herald Next Thursday, Its A 3 Cylinder , One Cylinder Runs On Diesel One On Petrol And The Other On Granulated Charcoal ,the Petrol One Is Ignited By A Flint And Striker Arrangement In The Combustion Chamber , The Diesel Will Be Run Thru The Engine First As A Lubricant And The Charcoal For The Charcoal Cylinder Will Be Scraped From The Exhaust Pipe And Run Up A Conveyer/hopper/granulator Arrangement Back To The Top Of The Engine ........... What You Believed The Other Stories
Plagiarist! You are NOT "working" on such a design, because you have simply cribbed the design details of the famous Zorch Combinette. Not the least famous , or exotic design to come from the ateliers of that famous marque.

[degrom]

I'm a dumbass, so I'll rip this and post it from my fave daily read, Aardvark.

You can find the original article at http://www.aardvark.co.nz/daily/2006/1124.shtml

**By creating hydrogen and oxygen through the electrolysis of water, using the car's alternator, the system promises fuel savings of up to 70 percent.

Okay -- so where's that 70% of extra energy coming from?

I'll admit that I'm not a chemist - so perhaps there's some fiendishly clever molecular shuffling going on when that hydrogen and oxygen are mixed with your regular petrol and burnt under high compression in a combustion chamber -- but even that would violate the laws of thermodynamics.

We're talking about gaining around a three-fold increase in energy from the petrol burnt in a car's engine. That is just plain impossible.

Modern internal combustion engines are already running at about 30% efficiency with a maximum theoretical efficiency of around 60% and the *practical* maximum efficiency is little over half that figure. The laws of physics would therefore indicate that the claimed three-fold increase in fuel-efficiency (by what ever means) is just not possible.

You'd think a trust chaired by a university professor would know that -- or at least do the research.

So, is this yet another case of a con-job based on shonky science?**


But just think... What if it's true!!!

This would be the end of OPEC and it's monopoly on oil prices.

Just think what 70% saving on transport will mean to the New Zealand and the rest of the work.

And to think America is just giving it away... The sky must be falling!!!

[The Pastor]

Oh but wait where the new water fuel tax......

[WINJA]

Plagiarist! You are NOT "working" on such a design, because you have simply cribbed the design details of the famous Zorch Combinette. Not the least famous , or exotic design to come from the ateliers of that famous marque.
PUT A LINK HERE BULLSHITTER CAUSE I JUST MADE ALL THAT SHIT UP

[degrom]

Oh but wait where the new water fuel tax......

F**K, you must be working for the IRD.... :gob:

[The Pastor]

F**K, you must be working for the IRD.... :gob:

Well we cant have a new fuel and not tax it now can we, where the hell will we get our hip hop tour funding from. Unless they raise income tax or gst, we really don't pay enough taxes in nz. Vote labour!

[WINJA]

F**K, you must be working for the IRD.... :gob:

FUCK NOT THAT GUY , MORE LIKE IHC

[degrom]

Well we cant have a new fuel and not tax it now can we, where the hell will we get our hip hop tour funding from. Unless they raise income tax or gst, we really don't pay enough taxes in nz. Vote labour!

Let me see... You are still hoping that the pre-taxed water fueled bulldozers is going to build the water-front in Auckland paid for by the people from NZ(AKA good paying tax payers!!!)...

[The Pastor]

Let me see... You are still hoping that the pre-taxed water fueled bulldozers is going to build the water-front in Auckland paid for by the people from NZ(AKA good paying tax payers!!!)...


Actually I wanted an under water stadium.

[degrom]

Actually I wanted an under water stadium.

Just think of all the water they can use to power the stadium... LOL

[degrom]

FUCK NOT THAT GUY , MORE LIKE IHC

Ischemic Heart Disease?

[The Pastor]

Ischemic Heart Disease?


Intellectually Handi Caped people.

IHC is the place where all the retards go. Dover was from IHC orgianlly, untill winja and his two dads bailed him out.

[WINJA]

Ischemic Heart Disease?

AND YOU TOO YA FUCKEN TARD , WHERE DID YOU GET THE D FROM

[Ixion]

PUT A LINK HERE BULLSHITTER CAUSE I JUST MADE ALL THAT SHIT UP

I know. So did I. Zorch never made a Combinette!

The nearest was the rare and wonderful MkIII.IIa, with its coal-fired
transverse mounted engine, leather brakes, and two front wheels.

Some info about this famous competitor of our own Spagthorpe (be still, my beating heart) can be found at http://groups.google.co.nz/group/rec.motorcycles/browse_thread/thread/67da5d316a9abb62/c0af8dfc0f21b176?lnk=st&q=zorch+motorcycle+coal&rnum=2&hl=en#c0af8dfc0f21b176