Body mechanics and countersteering

[Terminated]

Another good link:

http://www.thunderbike.co.nz/workshop/notes/lifeAfterCountersteering.htm

Heads Up and Enjoy

[Rhino]

This article raises several very good points.

Countersteering is a useful tool to have at your disposal, but it is not the be all and end all.

The comment about having your arms relaxed and bent is vital. If you ride with locked arms, you wil crash sooner rather than later. In 99% of cases, relaxing and letting the bike take its natural course will get you out of trouble.

Once you have used countersteering to "fall in" to a corner, you need to let the bike have its head and relax.

[Daffyd]

Very interesting. I tried countersteering for the first time yesterday and had the same problem. (Mental note...make sure arms and shoulders are relaxed when going round corners. Make that all the time.)

[JT.]

Very interesting. I tried countersteering for the first time yesterday ...

No you didn't, you just became aware of what you have always been doing without realising.

[Motu]

'Bloody Mechanics and Countersteering'

It's just a skill we learn from dealing with complaining customers.

[awd]

'Bloody Mechanics and Countersteering'

It's just a skill we learn from dealing with complaining customers.

Too bloody right there Motu!:yes:

[90s]

No you didn't, you just became aware of what you have always been doing without realising.

-Aha - how right you are. I did the RRRS course which is CS heavy. The instructors said many people say " ... but MY bike doesn't countersteer ... "
Having ridden scooters etc for years I said "well OF COURSE these real bikes all countersteer, but maybe because of the small wheels etc. you don't feel it on scooters ... " to which the instructor said in a resigned and weary voice, "no, they CS too". The frickin well don't I thought to myself.

But after really throwing the RG in CS for a few weeks practice I got to the point now where I only CS (except parking) and guess what - it feels exactly like riding the old scooters. A subtle 'push' down on the bar into corners. It seems I had taught myself to do it years ago without ever realising what I was doing. Only reason why I probably didn't self-discover it again on the RG was because I was obsessed with the idea of leaning sports bikes (which was fighting the bike without CS).

A friend recently got a bike for the first time and I took him through CS. He was very skeptical at first, but once he clicked he also realised it was exactly the way he pilots his racing (push) bike. Again, he never really realised what he had been doing.

Tacit skills eh?

[Mole_C]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644

Just a short vid i found to show the need for countersteering

[Shorts]

Here's an easy vid:

Counteering by RideYourRide (http://www.livevideo.com/video/RideYourRide/312271B36D844390B6122827DE5E79C5/3-24-07-part-2-countersteeri.aspx)

[cbr guy]

today i was mucking around, i counter steered and kept slowing down while keeping the handle bars in the same position, eventually the bike turned in the opposite direction to the original turn. jut saying because it might be interesting if anyone tried this, useless but fun

[90s]

today i was mucking around, i counter steered and kept slowing down while keeping the handle bars in the same position, eventually the bike turned in the opposite direction to the original turn. jut saying because it might be interesting if anyone tried this, useless but fun

There's a critical low spead under which the front wheel does not generate enough force to act as a gyroscope. On the RRRS course they reckoned any bike above 15k would safely be over the threshold, but we practiced at 40 or 50k.

I find on my GSX6 that CS works almost from a starting point, ie. above 5k. Pulling fast off into left hand turns at lights I CS staight in and can feel a very low-speed transition point. Apparently some bikes have a much higher switching point.

Anyone else want to post their bikes one?

[Macktheknife]

Here is another one for interest sake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5oriblk&NR=1
Shorts, that was a really good clip, well done.

[swbarnett]

Unless you're crawling you can't turn without counter steer. You may not know you're doing it but every time you lean into a corner it's an imperceptible amount of counter steer that starts the lean (the same is true for a bicycle).

Learning to do it consciously can be beneficial though as the bike does seem to relax into the corner with more counter steer.

[MVnut]

Sometimes, especially on a long ride or when tired, your arms may stiffen up when they should be relaxed. Occasionally flapping your arms ( like chicken wings... but keep your hands on the bars ) will relax them real quick.

[shcabbeh]

-Aha - how right you are. I did the RRRS course which is CS heavy. The instructors said many people say " ... but MY bike doesn't countersteer ... "
Having ridden scooters etc for years I said "well OF COURSE these real bikes all countersteer, but maybe because of the small wheels etc. you don't feel it on scooters ... " to which the instructor said in a resigned and weary voice, "no, they CS too". The frickin well don't I thought to myself.


Interesting, when I first read about counter-steering I immediately noticed it while I had my scooter. There is very little lean, but if you make yourself conscious of your actions (should do anyway) it's far easier to notice.

I might suggest not pushing too hard either...there are hidden, unexpected results! I got in touch with nature...via a ditch. :scooter:

[Chrislost]

yooouz all think too much.
suerly thatd be 2nd nature before you get back from your first ride?

[swbarnett]

yooouz all think too much.
suerly thatd be 2nd nature before you get back from your first ride?

Well put. That's exactly what I was trying to say. Albeit perhaps a bit thechnically.

[moT]

also important to lean with the bike or position your body into the corner otherwise your leaning the bike more than ur turning body position is also important when rideing in a curve hanging off the bike (not just siding your bum off the seat) but moving your whole body which makes your bike corner just as fast but at a less of a lean then ofcorse you can crank it right over whle hanging off to get the most turning you can out of your motorcycle,. this process should feel natural if it doesnt then your probably doing something wrong

[Raoul Duke]

Counter steering with the is the number one rule for sure, one other thing that's made a huge difference for me is twisting your hips towards the inside of the corner which in turn locks your outside knee and elbow into the tank that along with keepimg your inside elbow bent gives you a pretty damn good position. I could be full of WANK but it seems to work!!

[moT]

Counter steering with the is the number one rule for sure, one other thing that's made a huge difference for me is twisting your hips towards the inside of the corner which in turn locks your outside knee and elbow into the tank that along with keepimg your inside elbow bent gives you a pretty damn good position. I could be full of WANK but it seems to work!!

yeah i find locking elbow helps especialy thru a high speed corner eg: 7th corner taupo the sweeper

[Stella]

So how do I tell if I am counter-steering?
It always looks to me like the handlebars are perfectly straight, I am not consciously doing anything apart from leaning. As far as I can make sense of it, leaning without counter-steering would also turn.

If I want to try counter-steering, do I still actively lean or not?

(Also, I think I always start turning too soon, sometimes having to straighten mid-turn. Any pointers on how to know where to start? Thanks)

[swbarnett]

So how do I tell if I am counter-steering?
It always looks to me like the handlebars are perfectly straight, I am not consciously doing anything apart from leaning. As far as I can make sense of it, leaning without counter-steering would also turn.

Without a force applied perpendicular to your direction of travel you will not turn. This force can be initiated at low speeds by turning the handlebars or at higher speeds by counter-steering. Leaning alone does not provide sufficient force as the angular momentum of the wheels is resisting any change in position. Essentially you're riding a pair of gyroscopes.

In a straight line the rotation of your front wheel is pushing your rear wheel into the road. When you counter-steer this rotational force moves away from the line of the bike and acts towards the back and a little to the side.

Go around a corner as normal but hold the bars loosely and observe which side of the bar is pressing into your hand. You will find that for a left-hand corner there is pressure backwards into your right hand. This shows that the bars are turning imperceptibly to the right


If I want to try counter-steering, do I still actively lean or not?

Just try going down a straight road and gently push the right handle-bar forwards. The front wheel will turn left and your bike will start to lean to the right. The same will happen in the opposite direction (push left bar, wheel goes right, bike leans left).



(Also, I think I always start turning too soon, sometimes having to straighten mid-turn. Any pointers on how to know where to start? Thanks)

This will come with experience. You'll start to sense how far you need to lean for a given corner radius and then you'll learn to judge where to start to match that lean to the corner. Better to turn too early and have to straighten than to overshoot and have to lean more than you're comfortable with.

[Stella]

Thanks heaps, swbarnett, that helps a lot :) Good explanations.

I will definitely try the straight road thing.

[JoeNormal]

Check out this short video on you tube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5oriblk&NR=1

[90s]

yooouz all think too much.
suerly thatd be 2nd nature before you get back from your first ride?

The important thing is to really understand countersteering and how it works. The reason is that when a rider who is not experienced (or often is) stuffs up going far too hot into a corner or needs to avoid a sudden event (ie. something falling in your path or a big pothole) you do the 'normal' thing.
Countersteering is the most effective way to initiate a FAST turn and to get you through a too hot corner. If you really understand it and have practiced it will be second nature.

Now many riders CS without realising it after their first ride like you say. But when they ride into trouble they do something else - often with bad results.

This safety announcement was bought to you by the good people at repsol - pure spanish olive oil.

[Stella]

THANKYOUSOVERYVERYMUCH!!!!!!!!
That video is brilliant, and I looked through the other videos in his series to. It finally makes sense!
And yes, I do it, and did it when I was a kid on my bicycle :)
Should be compulsory newbie viewing.
:D

[Reckless]

So how do I tell if I am counter-steering?
It always looks to me like the handlebars are perfectly straight, I am not consciously doing anything apart from leaning. As far as I can make sense of it, leaning without counter-steering would also turn.

If I want to try counter-steering, do I still actively lean or not?

(Also, I think I always start turning too soon, sometimes having to straighten mid-turn. Any pointers on how to know where to start? Thanks)


Here is one that is racer based.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWb3lGjF928&mode=related&search=
Don't know how to do that video window thing??
Stella alot of people think countersteering is opposite locking all the way through a corner. Don't confuse this, you still lean normally. Its usually for the initial turn in only (although it can tuck it in a bit better during a sweeping corner as well). Some of the descriptions here are when riders force the countersteer to get it down quickly or to get it into a corner when they have gone in a bit hot. And its not easy to deliberatly do when your arse is tryin to suck the seat cover into it cause your goin far too fast!!

[Ocean1]

Nobody has mentioned it but you also countersteer to pull the bike up coming out of a corner (steering in towards the curve). In fact you use the same slight pressure on the bars to maintain your line at any time.

If you doubt that then (as previously observed) try to maintain any line with your hands off the bars. Takes a fair bit of body lean to initiate even minor corrections on a straight let alone a corner.

I'm interested to learn about the very different body positions used on dirt and road bikes. I'm very aware of why on a dirt bike you lean the bike and more or less keep your body upright, weighting the outside peg definitely eases the lateral pressure on the tyres, keeps the weight (and therefore grip) more "down" into the ground. Trust me, it's faster, and way less likely to wash out (particularly the front) at/on any given speed/surface.

I can understand that a road bike can get WAY more grip all round, and that in a cornering you can approach the angular limit of the tyres contact patch. I imagined that the purpose of leaning in towards the corner on a road bike was therefore to allow a tighter turn while keeping within the tyres limit. Some comments here seem to suggest that it's a faster technique even when not pulled right over on the limit. Motard riding style looks to me like the simple transplanting of dirt techniques onto asphalt. Is that because the bikes are geometrically in fact dirt bikes? If so what’s the differences in geometry that make the riding technique “appropriate”.

Anyone?