NZ Roads: Criminal Negligence?

[idleidolidyll]

For some time I've been thinking about NZ roads and just how unsafe they are for us bikers.
It's not just the tin tops, trucks, tractors and the Sharks (I'm told by a police officer mate that that's what they call traffic cops: they despise em):
one of our real problems is the road surface itself.

Years ago, after all roadworks had been finished, the contractor was required to sweep up the gravel and crap they'd left behind. Now it seems they have no rule that forces them to think of the single track vehicles on the road (m'bikes and bicycles). In some countries this kind of practice can be challenged in court as criminal negligence. Here in NZ however, the councils and transit NZ protect the construction crews from prosecution.

Given that we seem helpless in court but that this remains a problem, I've thought about carrying a can of flouro paint and marking the road before the danger as "criminally negligent road works ahead" or similar. This would warn m'bikes of the danger and all other road users would see just what dangers riders we face.
With the number of hazards we face every day riding on NZ's roads, I reckon that the number of these signs would be very very high indeed and that it would be much harder for the govt and transit NZ to ignore motorcycles and bicycles.

I'm keen to give it a go, any takers?

[The_Dover]

I've got a broom you can borrow too.

You know, just for those of us who go too fast to see the flouro markings on the road. You could sweep up all the gravel whilst you're graffitiing the road.

[hXc]

With the number of hazards we face every day riding on NZ's roads, I reckon that the number of these signs would be very very high indeed and that it would be much harder for the govt and transit NZ to ignore motorcycles and bicycles.They don't ignore us, they neglect us. They hate us, because they know we are superior beings.


I'm keen to give it a go, any takers?I would, but you'll get charged with something. And if nothing exists that they can charge you for, then they'll pass a law that can charge you with something.

That's the way our government works. Want to get the NZ SAS to start a coup?

[idleidolidyll]

I've got a broom you can borrow too.

You know, just for those of us who go too fast to see the flouro markings on the road. You could sweep up all the gravel whilst you're graffitiing the road.

maybe we could equip someones bike with a sweeper and send them out an hour before our rides..................bags not me

[idleidolidyll]

They don't ignore us, they neglect us. They hate us, because they know we are superior beings.

I would, but you'll get charged with something. And if nothing exists that they can charge you for, then they'll pass a law the can charge you with something.

That's the way our government works. Want to get the NZ SAS to start a coup?

only if they catch us

[avgas]

Shit that sounds fantastic, bugger i just threw away a can too!

[boomer]

it seems my fairings and blade attract gravel, maybe i could do a pre-run for ya's.

Still won't make you any faster tho paddy

[The_Dover]

maybe we could equip someones bike with a sweeper and send them out an hour before our rides..................bags not me

wouldn't make much sense it being me either.

boomer would pass me within a few km's.

[Hellraiser]

HONDA makes good road sweepers

[idleidolidyll]

it seems my fairings and blade attract gravel, maybe i could do a pre-run for ya's.

Still won't make you any faster tho paddy

how about the guy on the yamaha supermoto?
he could go sideways around the corners in front of us spinning the gravel out of the way.............

seriously though, i'm gonna buy a can of flouro today

[boomer]

wouldn't make much sense it being me either.

boomer would pass me within a few km's.

no chance of that Pillsbury Dough Boy

[idleidolidyll]

HONDA makes good road sweepers

like the Leadwing etc?
if they tow a trailer then there's no reason why we shouldn't ask them to attach a sweeper

[boomer]

HONDA makes good road sweepers

You're mistaking them for gixxers, ya muppet.

[Goblin]

Hell yeah! I am so disgusted by the state of the roads around here. In the past it has been around March, end of the financial year, that the roadworks get into full swing but this year it hasn't stopped! From little cul-de-sac streets to rarely used country roads, have all been resealed and the fucken monkeys leave loose chip everywhere! They dont even do a good job of the resealing and now there's all these huge bumps at each end of the seal plus the original bumps are made worse. GGGRRRRR!!! Fucks me off! I went over one of my favourite twisty bits yesterday(Rotomas) and at Rotoiti, what used to be the most amazing hot-mixed beautiful corners is now rough as guts chip seal and the trucks are already chewing it up.
Anyone in the Rotorua area who might see an ugly bald cunt Robert McDonald and his band of fuckin monkeys working for Ministry of Works, give him the fingers for me! He's fucking our roads big time!
Rant over.

[Hellraiser]

Your mistaken them for gixxers ya muppet.

Oops my bad

[idleidolidyll]

Hell yeah! I am so disgusted by the state of the roads around here. In the past it has been around March, end of the financial year, that the roadworks get into full swing but this year it hasn't stopped! From little cul-de-sac streets to rarely used country roads, have all been resealed and the fucken monkeys leave loose chip everywhere! They dont even do a good job of the resealing and now there's all these huge bumps at each end of the seal plus the original bumps are made worse. GGGRRRRR!!! Fucks me off! I went over one of my favourite twisty bits yesterday(Rotomas) and at Rotoiti, what used to be the most amazing hot-mixed beautiful corners is now rough as guts chip seal and the trucks are already chewing it up.
Anyone in the Rotorua area who might see an ugly bald cunt Robert McDonald and his band of fuckin monkeys working for Ministry of Works, give him the fingers for me! He's fucking our roads big time!
Rant over.

I'm happy to start the ball rolling. Thursday night ride in sth Auckland and on the way to Wanganui at Christmas.
I hope when other bikers see it they'll help too.

[FilthyLuka]

sounds like a waste of time to me. Youll end up getting prosecuted for your good willed acts. i mean damnit! if your gonna tag the road, atleast say something like "F#ck the popo, the man aint gonna hold me down" or some such rebellious ranting no one cares about...

Just my two cents

Denis

[Hellraiser]

I'm happy to start the ball rolling. Thursday night ride in sth Auckland .

Dude you must have balls the size of watermallons ........... I wouldn't tag anything in Sth Akl the local Bro's might think your in a rival gang and give you da bash.

[Paul in NZ]

There are regulations which clearly outline the responsibilities of councils and contractors based on the class of road involved.

The first step is to ensure that these obilgations are being met before you start defacing property.

I'd suggest joining the AA and finding out how they lobby for change?

Paul N

[idleidolidyll]

sounds like a waste of time to me. Youll end up getting prosecuted for your good willed acts. i mean damnit! if your gonna tag the road, atleast say something like "F#ck the popo, the man aint gonna hold me down" or some such rebellious ranting no one cares about...

Just my two cents

Denis

if nobody tries it, we'll never know will we?

[idleidolidyll]

There are regulations which clearly outline the responsibilities of councils and contractors based on the class of road involved.

The first step is to ensure that these obilgations are being met before you start defacing property.

I'd suggest joining the AA and finding out how they lobby for change?

Paul N

The AA? You must be joking! The AA recently printed anti motorcycle articles. They don't give a rats arse about bikes.
I quit them in protest and sent them a letter telling them why.

[idleidolidyll]

Dude you must have balls the size of watermallons ........... I wouldn't tag anything in Sth Akl the local Bro's might think your in a rival gang and give you da bash.

ya think they'd catch me on a hogly or one of those mini choppers they ride?

[Drum]

After a reseal, "Surplus chips shall be removed from the sealed surface prior to the removal of the temporary speed restriction signs". Refer Transit Spec TNZ P/4:1995

http://www.transit.govt.nz/content_files/technical/Specification52_pdfFile.pdf

For general detritus (i.e. not after a reseal), including loose chip, the clearance period is specified by Transit in each individual maintenance contract.

That said, its not a perfect world and we will always encounter adverse conditions on the road. We have to take responsibility for our own riding and ride to the conditions.

[Paul in NZ]

The AA? You must be joking! The AA recently printed anti motorcycle articles. They don't give a rats arse about bikes.
I quit them in protest and sent them a letter telling them why.

Yet they are an effective lobby group (or at least were)

I'm just suggesting alternatives that have a better chance of working.

[idleidolidyll]

[["Surplus chips shall be removed from the sealed surface prior to the removal of the temporary speed restriction signs". Refer Transit Spec TNZ P/4:1995]]

hilarious!
how many times have you come around a bend and suddenly hit gravel with no warning signs?
I've lost count and THAT is the point

[idleidolidyll]

[["Surplus chips shall be removed from the sealed surface prior to the removal of the temporary speed restriction signs". Refer Transit Spec TNZ P/4:1995]]

i'm happy to get busted in the act, the publicity would be worth it.
road conditions are criminal negligence and transit doesn't seem to give a damn.
like others, they seem to build everything for cars and ignore the dangers to others

[idleidolidyll]

Yet they are an effective lobby group (or at least were)

I'm just suggesting alternatives that have a better chance of working.

Seriously Paul, I'm not knocking you but the AA are NOT an effective lobby group for bikers. The Dick in charge was on record saying that bikes should be legislated off the roads.

BRONZ is our lobby group but not enough bikers support them.
It's kind of sad but it's a part of the individualism that defines many bikers.

[vifferman]

like the Leadwing etc?
if they tow a trailer then there's no reason why we shouldn't ask them to attach a sweeper
This company (http://www.comingthrough.se/main.php?lang=UK&page=pro) would probably do one for you.

[sunhuntin]

how many times have you come around a bend and suddenly hit gravel with no warning signs?
I've lost count and THAT is the point

heading north towards kaikoura, theres a series of tunnels [one per lane, ie, one way only]
the first one i hit heading north, there was a sign on the south side depicting loose gravel, but no speed restrictions. i came out the other end at about 80k, maybe less, and what i expected to be a bit of road repair looked more like a truck had spilled half his load. if id been going any faster, i would have been off. even at 80k i nearly slipped over on it. it didnt appear to be roadworks related...it was just stones.
yeh all of the nearly complete just need to be painted works have signs for 30k max speed, when they can easily handle at least 50, if not faster. why the loose tunnel stuff wasnt speed restricted i dont know. guess i should just be grateful it wasnt in the tunnel itself cos it would have ended in tears.

[Kflasher]

Try ringing this number they respond to issues to do with roads "Action Line 09 486 8600" I know they respond to spills and such, but road works may be another issue, the more we speak up and sound off something may get done... my 2 cents.

[Paul in NZ]

Seriously Paul, I'm not knocking you but the AA are NOT an effective lobby group for bikers. The Dick in charge was on record saying that bikes should be legislated off the roads.

BRONZ is our lobby group but not enough bikers support them.
It's kind of sad but it's a part of the individualism that defines many bikers.

Trust me - I have zero regard for them myself but - we can learn from what they did, how they did it...

[XP@]

How about a sign on entry to NZ

"Warning: when driving expect the unexpected"

It would do as a sort of coverall statement which absolves the powers that be of any responsibility.

As a rider you should be aware that a change in road surface could be hazardous to your health. Also you may find other hazards on your way, these may be static or transient, which ever they hurt. In the overall scheme of things roadwork gravel (on corners) is only one of a massive list of potentials.

Our responsibility is to learn to look properly and use everything at our disposal to keep ourselves on two wheels. Learn to look for hazzards, if you can't see round the corner then assume there is a bus parked next to a possum that was killed when it slipped on gravel.

http://www.mikewaite.co.uk/factsheets/the-visual-point-and-dead-ground/

[PLUG]

tar bleed, in my book is worse than general debries ... they go around putting up slippery when wet signs ... phff ... the co-efficent of friction differance is massive ... this road condition contributes to alot of offs/prangs/deaths ... & what do they do about it ... pea gravel in the summer ... yeeeharr ...

[dnos]

This is a very good observation.
I have seen plenty of times a completed resealing, with all signs/markers removed and bloody gravel everywhere. It seems in some instances there is no effort to clean it up.
Not only can it be bloody dodgy to drive/ride on, but traffic flicks stones all over the place damaging other vehicles. Have you ever gone past a truck and trailer unit and been showered in gravel? It fucking sucks.
I might start noting these sites and let it be known to transit or the local council but i doubt very much they will give a shit.
Perhaps tagging the road isn't such a bad idea.

[sunhuntin]

How about a sign on entry to NZ

"Warning: when driving expect the unexpected"

It would do as a sort of coverall statement which absolves the powers that be of any responsibility.

As a rider you should be aware that a change in road surface could be hazardous to your health. Also you may find other hazards on your way, these may be static or transient, which ever they hurt. In the overall scheme of things roadwork gravel (on corners) is only one of a massive list of potentials.

Our responsibility is to learn to look properly and use everything at our disposal to keep ourselves on two wheels. Learn to look for hazzards, if you can't see round the corner then assume there is a bus parked next to a possum that was killed when it slipped on gravel.

http://www.mikewaite.co.uk/factsheets/the-visual-point-and-dead-ground/

be that as it may, it is still up to the people who do it to look after the general well being of the public. building sites are very well protected with fences and things to keep joe public safe...i dont see why the same doesnt apply to roads. after all more people use the roads than they would a building site.
they resealed outside my place a while back....i very nearly came off twice at slow speed just getting in and out of the driveway. even today theres loose stones, and holes where the new seal has rolled up on itself after hard acceleration by cars.

it is true, we never know whats around the bend, but the road workers could make things a little safer simply by using common sense.

[Motu]

I've got no problems with New Zealand roads - I think they are fantastic,we are really lucky to have such incredible surroundings to ride in.I am seldom caught out,and if I am I consider it as part of my riding challenge - gravel? I get over it ,literally.

[Ghost Lemur]

pfft

Or you could just ride to conditions ensuring that you keep enough in reserves to deal with any eventuality?

Personally I'm finding I like "shitty" roads. Can't imagine why? :Punk:

[scumdog]

[["Surplus chips shall be removed from the sealed surface prior to the removal of the temporary speed restriction signs". Refer Transit Spec TNZ P/4:1995]]

hilarious!
how many times have you come around a bend and suddenly hit gravel with no warning signs?
I've lost count and THAT is the point

So after six months the roads are going to be littered with crudely worded signs everywhere and we won't know which ones are current?

Or are you going to remove the paint each time the grit/loose gravel etc has been cleaned up??????

[idleidolidyll]

So after six months the roads are going to be littered with crudely worded signs everywhere and we won't know which ones are current?

Or are you going to remove the paint each time the grit/loose gravel etc has been cleaned up??????

beats sitting on your arse or watching your mates fall off around the next blind corner.

hmmm, flouro paint on the road or dead motorcyclists? tough choice eh

seriously, i doubt it'd take much for Transit or the Govt to get the point particularly if it was followed up with letters to the local MP, TV3 or Helenback

[idleidolidyll]

pfft

Or you could just ride to conditions ensuring that you keep enough in reserves to deal with any eventuality?



now THAT qualifies you for Ulysses or BMW membership

[Ixion]

Well, he ain't the one complaining that the roads are too difficult to ride on.

[idleidolidyll]

LOL sharks...its snakes mate. Comes from the old MOT days.

ahh, you're right, my bad

twas a week ago he mentioned it and it seems the old animosity is still there

traffic cops make me disrespect the whole force that's for sure

[idleidolidyll]

Well, he ain't the one complaining that the roads are too difficult to ride on.

difficult?

nah, dangerous is the word I'd use. Difficult is something road bikes experience trying to catch supermotos :Punk:

[The_Dover]

You mean I could get the sickness benefit? My haemorrhoids are really playing up today..

[The_Dover]

screw that, I want my sickness benefit. I'm fukin sick, no doubt about it.

[boomer]

Tell you what, why dont you reverse the mistake the government made 5 years ago when it decided that any doctor can authorise someone for the sickness benefit and take it back to how it was when special gp's have to evaluate and authorise it.

That way all the unemployed bums that are on the sickness benefit cause they have a methadone addiction or a sore eyebrow have to go back onto the unemployment benefit.

Once the real unemployment rate comes up, there will be an uproar and they will be forced to work like they are in Aussie unless they have a genuine medical problem.

All the money that is being used to pay them to sit on their asses at home can then be used for the roads.

:Punk:


fuck off, i want my money back.

and i like sittin on my arse thanks very much.

[boomer]

You as well? Well if you got haemorrhoids i guess thats all you can do. I only have enough cream for one of you though.


i aint sharing anything you've had any where near your dirty little brown star .. THANKS!

Dover won't have any use for it either, his is bleached and requires 'special' cream.. life as an arse bandit i guess? :yes:

[ManDownUnder]

You as well? Well if you got haemorrhoids i guess thats all you can do. I only have enough cream for one of you though.

'ang about...

You're offering to put your special cream on Dover's arse? Maurice'll be jealous. Are you prepared for that?

[ManDownUnder]

You can get some yourself from the supermarket. Its the stuff called "Deep Heat".

Are you mad??? I remember the time I ran out of vaseline.... :gob:

[boomer]

Are you mad??? I remember the time I ran out of vaseline.... :gob:

are you an arse bandit too MDU? what the fuck is it with you bastard homos!!!

[S&S]

lmao... some sick shit

[idleidolidyll]

Tell you what, why dont you reverse the mistake the government made 5 years ago when it decided that any doctor can authorise someone for the sickness benefit and take it back to how it was when special gp's have to evaluate and authorise it.

That way all the unemployed bums that are on the sickness benefit cause they have a methadone addiction or a sore eyebrow have to go back onto the unemployment benefit.

Once the real unemployment rate comes up, there will be an uproar and they will be forced to work like they are in Aussie unless they have a genuine medical problem.

All the money that is being used to pay them to sit on their asses at home can then be used for the roads.

:Punk:

Sounds good to me. Mind you, from someone who worked in the construction industry for 20 years, the govt theft from the fuel tax is just as bad. All those billions in surplus and Transit wants a toll charge to finish Auckland's motorway system.
I broke my back a coupla years ago. ACC gave me heaps of mobility equipment and meals on wheels (paralysed from hip to toe on one side). They paid for the spinal op and 6 month's worth of pysio. I didn't get a red cent in benefit.
I see plenty of people who have less serious illness/injury and who I know will bludge forever. What can we do about it? Vote for Winnie or ACT?

[ManDownUnder]

are you an arse bandit too MDU? what the fuck is it with you bastard homos!!!

I'll have you not question my parentage thanks all the same! Besides... I was speaking of cracking one off :tugger: , not taking one for the boys...:buggerd:

[idleidolidyll]

I'll have you not question my parentage thanks all the same! Besides... I was speaking of cracking one off :tugger: , not taking one for the boys...:buggerd:

What's the beef with homos? Hell I like that homos exist: more girls for those who appreciate them.

It's dykes that piss me off; they take two out of the game!

[boomer]

I'll have you not question my parentage thanks all the same! Besides... I was speaking of cracking one off :tugger: , not taking one for the boys...:buggerd:

hey, i'm not questioning anything matey... you came out with it! theres nothing wrong with it ( i 'spose ) but i'd rather not be privvy to it .. cheeers :yes:

[padre]

So after six months the roads are going to be littered with crudely worded signs everywhere and we won't know which ones are current?



That's surely better than them being littered with bodies. It won't hurt the govt to get some unemployed to clean up. A one off blitz could teach 'em good not to pull unsafe stunts on us again.

I'm in. Support that is. Remember to destroy anything that could be used....
Criminogenic thinking, straight up lads. Must be needing to get scared straight.

[idleidolidyll]

That's surely better than them being littered with bodies. It won't hurt the govt to get some unemployed to clean up. A one off blitz could teach 'em good not to pull unsafe stunts on us again.

I'm in. Support that is. Remember to destroy anything that could be used....
Criminogenic thinking, straight up lads. Must be needing to get scared straight.

it's a deal
watch for some markings around the top o the north from whycato to nth orklind

only real danger marked, no dumb taggin for the sake of it

[Bonez]

pfft

Or you could just ride to conditions ensuring that you keep enough in reserves to deal with any eventuality?

Personally I'm finding I like "shitty" roads. Can't imagine why? :Punk:Lots of good shitty roads out there with fuck all traffic on them to boot.

[Dai]

are you an arse bandit too MDU? what the fuck is it with you bastard homos!!!

Boomer it may not be the so called arse bandits problems.

It could be the PRETTY BOYS who excite them

[sunhuntin]

lemur....my beef is not with difficult roads, its with roads that are dangerous when they dont have to be [see my bit on the "spilled" gravel on the kaikoura tunnel]
i love a good twistie road as much as the next person, but a twistie road with badly marked piles of loose gravel that should be speed limited or swept up if in fact it is a lost load, is a recipie for disaster. especially when its wet and on the other side of a tunnel.
i was going about 80k, but likely less, and even i nearly came off....any one going faster would not come out the other end in one piece.

[Hitcher]

Something that has been bothering me for a while...

After Transit destroyed my beloved Kaitokes, they created amongst the ensuing multimillion-dollar monstrosity, two off-camber corners that require a bit of care. The first is the sweeping left-hander at the top of the first passing lane (the one with the skidmark in) and the next is the left-hander just past the Incline turnoff. This isn't the only bit of recent new road construction where I have observed this phenomenon. And the silly thing is there's no excuse for it.

Put the Kaitokes back the way they were! You bastards.

[idleidolidyll]

lemur....my beef is not with difficult roads, its with roads that are dangerous when they dont have to be [see my bit on the "spilled" gravel on the kaikoura tunnel]
i love a good twistie road as much as the next person, but a twistie road with badly marked piles of loose gravel that should be speed limited or swept up if in fact it is a lost load, is a recipie for disaster. especially when its wet and on the other side of a tunnel.
i was going about 80k, but likely less, and even i nearly came off....any one going faster would not come out the other end in one piece.

that's it exactly

i haven't been a victim yet but plenty of mates have and i've come close to it.
if it is criminal negligence shouldn't the compoany responsible pay to fix your bike instead of having to file an insurance claim and lose your no claims?

[Goblin]

Lots of good shitty roads out there with fuck all traffic on them to boot.
Yes...I like a good shitty road as much as the next bloke but it's the roads to get to the shitty roads and the high density traffic roads that should be kept up to some sort of standard. When the monkeys around here rip up perfectly good peices of road and leave shitty bumps and loose seal when they're done it's just an accident waiting to happen.

A few years ago, the Hamurana road around Lake Rotorua used to have these two hum-dinga crests with some great corners(apart from the bumps) in between. After a young motorcyclist and his pillion went head-on into the school bus, instead of taking the bumps out, they flattened and straightened the whole road and now the cars honk along there and barely slow down for the 70k residential area and tight corners that follow, then end up in the ditch. In fact all roads out of this town are now fast, open and potential death trap roads....not to mention revenue gatherer's paradise. Wish they'd put them back to how they used to be.

[SuperDave]

"Drive to the conditions if they change reduce your speed"

Havn't you heard this, this shows just how much they care about us, they go so far out of their way to spend thousands of dollars on advertising to ensure that we are aware of dangers on our roads...

Oh but wait, you say the gravel is dangerous to those on two wheels even at very low speed? Really? Who would've thought?

Obviously not them.

They don't care man, good luck trying to change them.

[pritch]

maybe we could equip someones bike with a sweeper and send them out an hour before our rides

Like mount a broom on these?

(Don't ask me, I don't know, they appear to be "tow trucks"...)

[pritch]

Well these anyway...

[scumdog]

That's surely better than them being littered with bodies. It won't hurt the govt to get some unemployed to clean up. A one off blitz could teach 'em good not to pull unsafe stunts on us again.

I'm in. Support that is. Remember to destroy anything that could be used....
Criminogenic thinking, straight up lads. Must be needing to get scared straight.


But WHO is going to be the person who removes the paint after the road problem has been fixed???

Or do we all ride around saying "shit, I wonder if there IS hazard there - or has it been fixed?"

[padre]

"Drive to the conditions" - ya cannae always notice gravel ahead.

OKay Okay Scumdog. So we need some less permanent signal till the stuff gets skidded outa the way. We could put down warning neon flags to drop da hint to transit and works boys. Easily relocated to da next destination they don't sweep up.

Hitch - could also be used to mark perfectly good road sections they've screwed up.

[Ghost Lemur]

But WHO is going to be the person who removes the paint after the road problem has been fixed???

Or do we all ride around saying "shit, I wonder if there IS hazard there - or has it been fixed?"

Or we could just always ride as if there is a hazard around the corner anyway without the need to spraypaint every corner.

[sunhuntin]

"Drive to the conditions" - ya cannae always notice gravel ahead.

OKay Okay Scumdog. So we need some less permanent signal till the stuff gets skidded outa the way. We could put down warning neon flags to drop da hint to transit and works boys. Easily relocated to da next destination they don't sweep up.

Hitch - could also be used to mark perfectly good road sections they've screwed up.

what about something similar to the reflecta-sticks they have on roadside? cept have the sticks a different color where the real ones are red? maybe green?

[Biff]

Throughout Europe and the US you could at least take the local authority to court, and in the UK and US you could sue for millions if the road contractors failed to made the roads 'fit' for their intended purpose.

The laws protecting the contractors and local authorities stinks here in NZ. The govinmunters protect them at the expense of public safety.

People should stop making excuses for this lazy and dangerous practice. FFS - the rest of the developed world manage to clean up their shite after they've re-sealed their roads. Albeit they tend to make their roads out of decent materials, like tarmac, not the loose shit they predominantly use here.

[Bonez]

Or we could just always ride as if there is a hazard around the corner anyway without the need to spraypaint every corner.Then you get classed as a nanna rider. Can't have that can we?

[crack]

RE: The roads! and laws protecting Councils, Doctors,Police etc etc.

My Question: What is a "DEMOCRACY",

Any political Professors, tutors amongst us?.

Some one said in a Thread some where, " bring on the revolution" I am 50, and after being back in NZ full time the last 2 plus years, I am shocked, by the GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION:

Any way I don't want to go into one of my rants, but I would appreciate an answer, be good to compare.

:whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :love:

[Sanx]

Ingedients required:

- One biker willing to take one for the boys. Suggest Harley rider.
- One lawyer
- One munted bike, slid across the gravel
- One stretch of road, covered in gravel, no warnings

You can't sue for personal injury in NZ, but you can sue for damage caused to personal property. If anyone does come off and survive, sue for damage to the bike, plus leathers and helmet. Make sure there's lots of publicity around the case too.

Otherwise, it's back to writing letters and generally being ineffective.

[Ixion]

Throughout Europe and the US you could at least take the local authority to court, and in the UK and US you could sue for millions if the road contractors failed to made the roads 'fit' for their intended purpose.

,,.

However, "fit for their intended purpose" is driving or riding in a safe,prudent and law abiding fashion. Not racing.

Never quite seen the issue m'self. If you can stop in the clear hazard free length of road visible ahead, then , if you see gravel ahead, just slow down. If you can't stop in time, you are , by definition, not riding in a safe and law abiding fashion.

Only times gravel has scared me is when I've been riding faster than safe visibility. Which has happened. More than a few times. But then I blame myself for not riding safely. Nobody else is responsible for my safety. Just me. And my own observation is that it is rare for there not to be a "road works" sign at the beginning of the stretch. Usually with a 30kph limit sign, which everyone ignores.

So, if a rider doesn't see the gravel, why is he going to see something painted on the road? And if he can't slow down for the gravel, how is he going to slow down for a painted mark? Unless maybe the said rider is riding at excessive speeds?

[idleidolidyll]

"Drive to the conditions" - ya cannae always notice gravel ahead.

OKay Okay Scumdog. So we need some less permanent signal till the stuff gets skidded outa the way. We could put down warning neon flags to drop da hint to transit and works boys. Easily relocated to da next destination they don't sweep up.

Hitch - could also be used to mark perfectly good road sections they've screwed up.

Not an issue.
Transit has gone to great lengths to find a paint that will stand constant traffic. A bit of flouro marker paint (the type they use on the roads BEFORE fucking them up with gravel) won't last long at all.

This is a safety issue that has existed for a decade or more. Prior to about that time the road workers DID at least make some effort to create a safe surface for all vehicles.

Perhaps we are doing Transit and the Councils a favour: maybe they don't know that the road surfaces are dangerous to bikes because they are not programmed to think about us. How many potholes, shiny bits and constantly gravelled sections will it take before they get the message? Probably not many if the thing is handled well. A quality anonymous video and covering letter sent to the Cambell Show, some calls to talkback stations, a few anonymous safety tagger letters to MP's and the Govt and we are quite likely to get air time. Some know and some don't but it only takes 10-20 letters to Parliment, television or a Councillor get something started. That's a sad indication of Kiwi apathy but it can work in our favour.

Regardless, it has to start somewhere, the status quo is not working and is costing cyclists and motorcyclists money, injuries and possibly death.

[idleidolidyll]

However, "fit for their intended purpose" is driving or riding in a safe,prudent and law abiding fashion. Not racing.

Never quite seen the issue m'self. If you can stop in the clear hazard free length of road visible ahead, then , if you see gravel ahead, just slow down. If you can't stop in time, you are , by definition, not riding in a safe and law abiding fashion.

Only times gravel has scared me is when I've been riding faster than safe visibility. Which has happened. More than a few times. But then I blame myself for not riding safely. Nobody else is responsible for my safety. Just me. And my own observation is that it is rare for there not to be a "road works" sign at the beginning of the stretch. Usually with a 30kph limit sign, which everyone ignores.

So, if a rider doesn't see the gravel, why is he going to see something painted on the road? And if he can't slow down for the gravel, how is he going to slow down for a painted mark? Unless maybe the said rider is riding at excessive speeds?

I'm sorry, you seem to live in a different NZ than I do.
I can't count how many times I've come around a corner or over a crest doing the legal speed limit and found the road suddenly covered in gravel, wet shiny tar or massive potholes that even a Goldwing would disapear into without trace.

The point is that the roads are supposed to be safe for all traffic at the marked speeds with a margin of error. Why should we settle for anything less and allow the govt to steal some 50% of fuel tax to top up its slush fund instead of using it for the purpose it was designed for?

[The_Dover]

So, if a rider doesn't see the gravel, why is he going to see something painted on the road? And if he can't slow down for the gravel, how is he going to slow down for a painted mark? Unless maybe the said rider is riding at excessive speeds?

That's why I offered my broom.:second:

[cooneyr]

/Rant on
I'm not even going to bother reading all of this thread. I've worked on a chip sealing gang for three summers and know of at lease 3 times where bikers have come off cause they have ignored the loose chip signs. We had a little yellow truck working hugh days trying to keep up with the sweeping behind us. The requirement on State Highways is that the road is swept and marked within 48 hours of sealing.

I'm an engineer so I know that chip seal will always loose chip (the rate of loss depends on the type - and yes there are numerous types of chip seal) unless it is blead i.e. bitumen through the chips. Either way there is potential for something to slide on. Best you ride to the conditions, if the change reduce your speed!

Another point - numerous times some wally contractors drops crap on the road aggregate, concrete etc - this is actually againse the law and transit will prosicute if it is not cleaned up and it poses a hazard. Most often these contractors are not roading contractors. I know of many sites where vehicles are required to be washed before they leave to stop this happening.

The road is not a race track
Rant off/

Why dont you just get an adventure bike - gravel is much more fun than a sealed road?

R

[Ixion]

I'm sorry, you seem to live in a different NZ than I do.
I can't count how many times I've come around a corner or over a crest doing the legal speed limit and found the road suddenly covered in gravel, wet shiny tar or massive potholes that even a Goldwing would disapear into without trace.

The point is that the roads are supposed to be safe for all traffic at the marked speeds with a margin of error. Why should we settle for anything less and allow the govt to steal some 50% of fuel tax to top up its slush fund instead of using it for the purpose it was designed for?

No they're not. Where did you get that idea? The speed limit is just that, a speed LIMIT. There has never been any suggestion, let alone a guarantee, that anyone can drive or ride safely at that speed anywhere.

If you come around a corner, or over a crest , and find the road "suddenly" covered in anything (including bathtubs) , then you are going too fast. The correct speed around any corner, or over any crest, is that speed which allows you to see sufficient of the road ahead to be able to safely stop in the visible distance . That speed, on a blind corner, or crest may be very much less than the speed limit or any posted speed. And very much less than the maximum speed that the vehicle can go round the corner at. It's all in the road code .

[idleidolidyll]

No they're not. Where did you get that idea? The speed limit is just that, a speed LIMIT. There has never been any suggestion, let alone a guarantee, that anyone can drive or ride safely at that speed anywhere.

If you come around a corner, or over a crest , and find the road "suddenly" covered in anything (including bathtubs) , then you are going too fast. The correct speed around any corner, or over any crest, is that speed which allows you to see sufficient of the road ahead to be able to safely stop in the visible distance . That speed, on a blind corner, or crest may be very much less than the speed limit or any posted speed. And very much less than the maximum speed that the vehicle can go round the corner at. It's all in the road code .

actually the posted speed limits indicate a contract between the driving public and the road keepers.
The contract is that as long as we drive within the posted speed limits, the roads will be relatively safe for our use.
with regard to the shocking state of roads with respect to motorcycls; you might be happy to bend over and take it but i'm not
if we were to take your suggestion as the word of dog, we would all ride at 30kph anywhere we couldn't see 30 metres in front of us.

however, if you object so much to this cunning plan, you have no obligation to join in the protest but don't think for a second that anyone here is going to take the idea of riding from Clevedon to Kaiaua at 30kph seriously

[Motu]

There may not be signs,but the clues are there well before the road works,I actualy don't look for the road signs,I'm aware ''something is up'' before I'm on them.Once you are off the main highways you are into rural roads that are the life blood of the area...people are going about their daily tasks,getting with life - you are the intruder,be respectfull.

You have to be aware of your surroundings,where you are and what time of the day - around 4.00pm I expect to see cows wandering across the road to the milk shed,mid morning and late afternoon I expect to come across milk tankers,late december early january I expect to see hay making equipment being transported between farms.Know your surroundings and fit into them,don't try and make them fit your ideals.Slow down and look around,it's a nice land out there.

[scracha]

Never quite seen the issue m'self. If you can stop in the clear hazard free length of road visible ahead, then , if you see gravel ahead, just slow down. If you can't stop in time, you are , by definition, not riding in a safe and law abiding fashion.


Ixion, I've not been riding in NZ long but as others have said, there's been plenty of corners I've ridden round at say, 60Kmph only to find loose gravel & $hit halfway round causing me to run wide as I'm trying to scubb off a little speed and turn at the same time. Yes, I try and spot stuff like this and accordingly corner/brake at maybe 50% of my max in NORMAL riding but sometimes even this isn't enough. Have you tried spotting gravel on a bike at night or are you saying we should all ride at 70Kmph?

What if the kiwi mafia...sorry...Fulton Hogan left oil on the road. Would that be our responsibility to anticipate too? Nobody's saying the roads should be all billiard smooth sticky tarmac. We're just saying that after work is done on the road some common sense should apply and the excess gravel removed.

As for the road building process over here (reportedly it costs an 8th of laying tarmac).....well it can't be that good as they seem to have to fix the same stretch of road every couple of years.

[Ixion]

actually the posted speed limits indicate a contract between the driving public and the road keepers.
The contract is that as long as we drive within the posted speed limits, the roads will be relatively safe for our use.
with regard to the shocking state of roads with respect to motorcycls; you might be happy to bend over and take it but i'm not
if we were to take your suggestion as the word of dog, we would all ride at 30kph anywhere we couldn't see 30 metres in front of us.

however, if you object so much to this cunning plan, you have no obligation to join in the protest but don't think for a second that anyone here is going to take the idea of riding from Clevedon to Kaiaua at 30kph seriously

Goodness. It takes you 30 metres to stop from 30kph? Now I see your problem. I suggest either a bike with better brakes, or a riding course. Those run by the Ride Right Ride safe organisation are well recommended. They will be able to teach you how to stop much more quickly.

But I am afraid that there is no contract anywhere that says that "as long as we drive within the posted speed limits, the roads will be relatively safe for our use." How indeed could there be. You have been listening to too much LTSA propaganda. Just keeping to the speed limit is never any guarantee of safety . Nor, conversely, is exceeding the speed limit inherently unsafe (though given your braking problems, it probably would be for you)

[idleidolidyll]

Goodness. It takes you 30 metres to stop from 30kph? Now I see your problem.
No sweetie, that's the MOT recommendation and since you seem such a puerile stickler for regulations, i offered that as consistant with your simplistic mindset.

I suggest either a bike with better brakes, or a riding course. Those run by the Ride Right Ride safe organisation are well recommended. They will be able to teach you how to stop much more quickly.
Your suggestion is noted and I'll think on it the next time my back wheel is waving at the sky or as I zoom past you into a corner

But I am afraid that there is no contract anywhere that says that "as long as we drive within the posted speed limits, the roads will be relatively safe for our use." How indeed could there be. You have been listening to too much LTSA propaganda. Just keeping to the speed limit is never any guarantee of safety . Nor, conversely, is exceeding the speed limit inherently unsafe (though given your braking problems, it probably would be for you)
Dear ickyone, it's a social contract, an expectation of safety if one is to drive/ride within the bounadries of the law. You'll find, if you look beyond your fragile ego, that such social contracts are the very basis of modern society

[cooneyr]

No they're not. Where did you get that idea? The speed limit is just that, a speed LIMIT. There has never been any suggestion, let alone a guarantee, that anyone can drive or ride safely at that speed anywhere.

I'm with Ixion here. The speed limits are maximums for that length of road. The corner advisory speed limits are just that advisory. Basically you are on you own on the road - ride to the safe speed. It is entirely up to you to judge how fast is safe. Are Transit/Councils goingto run around putting up signs for cows crossing the road, tractors travelling along the road etc etc. Think about it logically - there is no way Transit/Council can warn you or every hazard.

From the online road code at
http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roadcode/wordindex.html

4. Knowing your limits
Speed
Safe speed guidelines

You can drive at any speed under or equal to the limit, provided:

your speed is safe for the traffic conditions - eg, busy road, pedestrians, joggers, etc
your speed is safe for the road conditions - eg, bumpy, narrow, wet or icy roads
your speed is safe for the weather conditions - eg, rain, wind or fog
you can stop short of a vehicle that you are following - if a vehicle ahead of you stops suddenly and you run into the back of it, you will be in the wrong
on a road with no centre line or lanes (eg, a narrow country road where vehicles may meet head-on) you can stop in half the length of clear road you can see in front of you
on a road with a centre line or lanes, you can stop in the length of clear lane you can see in front of you

R

[Ixion]

Ixion, I've not been riding in NZ long but as others have said, there's been plenty of corners I've ridden round at say, 60Kmph only to find loose gravel & $hit halfway round causing me to run wide as I'm trying to scubb off a little speed and turn at the same time. Yes, I try and spot stuff like this and accordingly corner/brake at maybe 50% of my max in NORMAL riding but sometimes even this isn't enough. Have you tried spotting gravel on a bike at night or are you saying we should all ride at 70Kmph?

What if the kiwi mafia...sorry...Fulton Hogan left oil on the road. Would that be our responsibility to anticipate too? Nobody's saying the roads should be all billiard smooth sticky tarmac. We're just saying that after work is done on the road some common sense should apply and the excess gravel removed.

As for the road building process over here (reportedly it costs an 8th of laying tarmac).....well it can't be that good as they seem to have to fix the same stretch of road every couple of years.
Oh, so have I of course. As we all have. And jolly scarey it can be, too. But if I have steamed round a corner at a speed that events show was unwise (and, after all, had you known what lay round the corner, you would have gone slower, right? So manifestly the speed was unwise) , and given myself a fright, then I blame myself, for being impetuous. Not the road. Or the makers of it. My safety: my responsibility. No-one else's.

And if 70kph is the maximum speed which permits safe riding and identification of hazards, then , yes, 70kph is the speed which we should ride at. Like most, I will probably ride rather faster. and then get a fright. But that is my fault for not sticking to the boring, but safe, 70kph.

I would also prefer that loose gravel was removed. But it is not. Sometimes it is, but the chips loosen up and break free over a period. It is an imperfect world. In a perfect world the roads would be free of all obstructions (and other traffic). But in this imperfect world they are not. Sometimes there is gravel on them. I deal with it. My job. My responsibility. And I am more worried about bathtubs, and Mabel, than gravel.

[cooneyr]

Dear ickyone, it's a social contract, an expectation of safety if one is to drive/ride within the bounadries of the law. You'll find, if you look beyond your fragile ego, that such social contracts are the very basis of modern society

Good luck with that one in court! The law is NOT confined to the posted speed limit which is a maximum - read the remainder of the statement from my last post. There is enough in there to make it your responsibility.

R

[idleidolidyll]

Good luck with that one in court! The law is NOT confined to the posted speed limit which is a maximum - read the remainder of the statement from my last post. There is enough in there to make it your responsibility.

R

cheers cooneyr, you may or may not be correct but imo it's time that criminal negligence was at least suggested in reference to our roads and motorcyclists.

[idleidolidyll]

Oh, so have I of course. As we all have. And jolly scarey it can be, too. But if I have steamed round a corner at a speed that events show was unwise (and, after all, had you known what lay round the corner, you would have gone slower, right?

posthumous recognition of the road conditions may give Transit NZz and Fulton Hogan succor but the grieving relatives of dead motorcyclists will hardly thank you for the mention

[Ixion]

Dear ickyone, it's a social contract, an expectation of safety if one is to drive/ride within the bounadries of the law. You'll find, if you look beyond your fragile ego, that such social contracts are the very basis of modern society

Ah, your expectations are greater than mine. I expect nothing, and am thus seldom disappointed.

But, do you then endorse the corollary of your argument? That the government should reduce the speed limit until it is low enough that driving/riding within it is safe against any possible hazard? If so, your problem with gravel is easily solved.

Or do you think that the present speed limits offer such a guarantee (as you appear to be saying elsewhere) . If they do, and you have problems, then it must be that you are riding at a speed in excess of the speed limit. Which a person with your respect for the law would not do, I am sure. From observation, the speed limit in the vicinity of road works is usually 30kph, most riders should be able to negoiate gravel at that speed (if not, see the recommendation for Ride Right, Ride Safe, above)

[idleidolidyll]

Ah, your expectations are greater than mine. I expect nothing, and am thus seldom disappointed.

But, do you then endorse the corollary of your argument? That the government should reduce the speed limit until it is low enough that driving/riding within it is safe against any possible hazard? If so, your problem with gravel is easily solved.

Or do you think that the present speed limits offer such a guarantee (as you appear to be saying elsewhere) . If they do, and you have problems, then it must be that you are riding at a speed in excess of the speed limit. Which a person with your respect for the law would not do, I am sure. From observation, the speed limit in the vicinity of road works is usually 30kph, most riders should be able to negoiate gravel at that speed (if not, see the recommendation for Ride Right, Ride Safe, above)

why certainly. that is indeed one option. obviously i prefer another option; ensuring the safety of the roads to the best of their ability for all road users

i never said there were any guarantees in life, even social contracts are subject to the good will of the parties

however, please don't confine your comments to road works and gravel leftovers. this thread was intended to identify potholes, slippery shiny surfaces, off camber corners, grooves running down the the road around corners and more.

the surest way to ensure nothing is done for motorcycle safety on our roads is to accept the status quo and blame the victim for the accident

[jahrasti]

/Rant on
I'm not even going to bother reading all of this thread. I've worked on a chip sealing gang for three summers and know of at lease 3 times where bikers have come off cause they have ignored the loose chip signs. We had a little yellow truck working hugh days trying to keep up with the sweeping behind us. The requirement on State Highways is that the road is swept and marked within 48 hours of sealing.

I'm an engineer so I know that chip seal will always loose chip (the rate of loss depends on the type - and yes there are numerous types of chip seal) unless it is blead i.e. bitumen through the chips. Either way there is potential for something to slide on. Best you ride to the conditions, if the change reduce your speed!

Another point - numerous times some wally contractors drops crap on the road aggregate, concrete etc - this is actually againse the law and transit will prosicute if it is not cleaned up and it poses a hazard. Most often these contractors are not roading contractors. I know of many sites where vehicles are required to be washed before they leave to stop this happening.

The road is not a race track
Rant off/

Why dont you just get an adventure bike - gravel is much more fun than a sealed road?

R


Ahh you beat me to it ya bastard:yes: If you have that much of a problem instead of bitching and blaming Transit, why don't you inform them of your concerns.
Transit themselves don't do the construction. If they find out about dodgy subbies then they can do something about it.
I survey rehabs for the roads and because we are walking on to the road to get a shot we put 50kph speed restrictions up and bikies are some of the worst offenders. I sometimes think that some bikies are to arrogant to obey the speed restrictions.

[jonbuoy]

Sticking to the speed limits and riding to the conditions is all well and good but if some fuckwit has sprinkled loose seal on a blind corner with no warning signs your in the shit. If it affected cars grip in the same way it does ours it would have been stopped long ago.

[cooneyr]

Chip sealing speed limit while sealing work in progress 30 kph
Chip sealing speed limit after sealing but during sweeping and marking 50 kph
Road works where you drive on gravel/loose surface 50 kph
Road works where you drive on seal but with construction traffic - individual site assessment but 50 or 70 generally

Would anybody expect to go ripping over the Desert Road or any alpine pass in the middle of winter at the speed limit? No you excercise judgement and slow down with the anticipppppppation (ohhh rocky :Offtopic:) of ice/ice grit. Apply the same judgement at all times - there maybe, just maybe something around this corner that could cause me grief.
R

[cooneyr]

Ahh you beat me to it ya bastard:yes: If you have that much of a problem instead of bitching and blaming Transit, why don't you inform them of your concerns.
Transit themselves don't do the construction. If they find out about dodgy subbies then they can do something about it.
I survey rehabs for the roads and because we are walking on to the road to get a shot we put 50kph speed restrictions up and bikies are some of the worst offenders. I sometimes think that some bikies are to arrogant to obey the speed restrictions.

We use to fine that walking out onto the road to "inspect" something was a good way of slowing people down - oooohhhh sorry I didnt see you comming (you fugn pillic).

Sucked when cars when through the site even at 50 kph and flicked stones at you - kinda hurt and for no reason.

R

[Ixion]

...
however, please don't confine your comments to road works and gravel leftovers. this thread was intended to identify potholes, slippery shiny surfaces, off camber corners, grooves running down the the road around corners and more.

...


'ere, that won't do. I *like* potholes and off camber. You leave them alone, they are fun. (so is gravel of course, if there's enough of it, a proper metal road - just the pea gravel over seal is not so nice)

[Ixion]

,, Apply the same judgement at all times - there maybe, just maybe something around this corner that could cause me grief.
R

Bathtubs. Blurdy bathtubs.

[idleidolidyll]

'ere, that won't do. I *like* potholes and off camber. You leave them alone, they are fun. (so is gravel of course, if there's enough of it, a proper metal road - just the pea gravel over seal is not so nice)

Dear ickyone, I'm munificent by nature; I do this not for myself but for my comrades on their rigid road bikes so poorly suited to New Zealand's goat tracks laughingly designated as public roads.
I feel confident in my personal choice of a chook chaser for a 'road bike' and i too enjoy massive rooster tails of gravel as I pass such 'roads' grinning with malevolence at the thought of the pristine 999 or MV August F4 carefully picking their way through in my wake.

[idleidolidyll]

Sticking to the speed limits and riding to the conditions is all well and good but if some fuckwit has sprinkled loose seal on a blind corner with no warning signs your in the shit. If it affected cars grip in the same way it does ours it would have been stopped long ago.

THAT is the crux of the issue: New Zealands rods are designed for cars and little to no thought is given to motorcyclists.

[jahrasti]

Sticking to the speed limits and riding to the conditions is all well and good but if some fuckwit has sprinkled loose seal on a blind corner with no warning signs your in the shit. If it affected cars grip in the same way it does ours it would have been stopped long ago.

What is'Sprinkling?' If you mean after potholes have been filled or patches have been completed then yes the contractor should sweep. If it has just been ripped up what do you want, network inspectors driving the road constantly 24/7 for a few loose chips and sealing crews on permenant stand by to fix it/sweep up even if it is 2am and a few loose stones?
I can't speak for the whole countries roads but the network we maintain have few bikers down but plenty of trucks and cars.

[jahrasti]

THAT is the crux of the issue: New Zealands rods are designed for cars and little to no thought is given to motorcyclists.

How? the road we design are either for fixing up problem areas flushing etc or for safety. I don't like when my favourite corners are in the pipe line to be taken out. It is for safety, what about truckies that also ride bikes? If they fall off while driving then they won't be there to enjoy the roads will they?

[idleidolidyll]

How? the road we design are either for fixing up problem areas flushing etc or for safety. I don't like when my favourite corners are in the pipe line to be taken out. It is for safety, what about truckies that also ride bikes? If they fall off while driving then they won't be there to enjoy the roads will they?

the use of chipseal alone, that abrasive material so hated by any fallen motorcyclist, should provide ample indication that our road designers give little to no thought to two wheeled vehicular traffic.

your opinion however, is welcome; please do continue

[cooneyr]

the use of chipseal alone, that abrasive material so hated by any fallen motorcyclist, should provide ample indication that our road designers give little to no thought to two wheeled vehicular traffic.

your opinion however, is welcome; please do continue

What you would rather have hotmix or concrete. Naff off! The skid resistance of both those materials is far below that of chip seal especially so when wet. Seems the point of this thread is that you are after cornering grip - can't have it and then expect not to experience abrasion when you have an off.

This is all besides the point that all of your salary would need to be collected as tax to pay for it. As previously stated hotmix is around 8 times more expensive to lay than chip seal - concrete is many times more expensive again.

R

[idleidolidyll]

What you would rather have hotmix or concrete. Naff off! The skid resistance of both those materials is far below that of chip seal especially so when wet. Seems the point of this thread is that you are after cornering grip - can't have it and then expect not to experience abrasion when you have an off.

This is all besides the point that all of your salary would need to be collected as tax to pay for it. As previously stated hotmix is around 8 times more expensive to lay than chip seal - concrete is many times more expensive again.

R

ahh, motorcyclists lives and limbs are to be sold cheaply, sacrificed on the altar of 4 wheeled pandering by govt.

and here i was thinking your argument was actually based on some PC fantasy

never mind, each to their own. you can suck up to Transit, Fulton Hogan and Helenback, I'll protest the pathetic lack of due care for motorcyclists in my own way as described in the original post.

[idleidolidyll]

The skid resistance of both those materials is far below that of chip seal

R

really? then please tell me why thy don't pave race tracks in chipseal

[Ixion]

Hm. I have never experienced any issues with adhesion on concrete, even when wet.

And I suggest that the grip quality of chip seal is overrated. Granted it may be good when the seal is new and the edges of the chips are sharp. But I have observed that after a while, the chips become polished and rounded and then the grip becomes quite poor. You can spot the polished off chip seal when riding, I always treat it with great caution.

If concrete is so expensive, why was it used extensively for roads in the 1930s through 50s (those that were not gravel off course). There was less money then than now.

I have argued before that in fact , in the long run, concrete is CHEAPER than chip seal, because it lasts so well. Those 1930s concrete roads are mostly STILL there, buried under a few inches of hotmix. You can see them when they rip the hot mix off to relay it, and the concrete is STILL in good nick, after more than half a century.

[cooneyr]

ahh, motorcyclists lives and limbs are to be sold cheaply, sacrificed on the altar of 4 wheeled pandering by govt.

and here i was thinking your argument was actually based on some PC fantasy

never mind, each to their own. you can suck up to Transit, Fulton Hogan and Helenback, I'll protest the pathetic lack of due care for motorcyclists in my own way as described in the original post.


Forget the money read the first para of my post. And before you say that race tracks are made from hotmix therefore must provide better grip - the surfacing has to withstand much much higher cornering forces without being ripped to shreads.

R

[jonbuoy]

What is'Sprinkling?' If you mean after potholes have been filled or patches have been completed then yes the contractor should sweep. If it has just been ripped up what do you want, network inspectors driving the road constantly 24/7 for a few loose chips and sealing crews on permenant stand by to fix it/sweep up even if it is 2am and a few loose stones?
I can't speak for the whole countries roads but the network we maintain have few bikers down but plenty of trucks and cars.

I mean like this : http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=39552
After repair work, everyone understands roads have to be maintained, fresh seal is not a problem as long as we know about it. When the signs are not put up or taken away too soon then it is a problem.

[Motu]

Your safety is in your hands,not the hands of others.I don't care if nothing is ever done on our roads,they will revert back to gravel and I'll be happy.How long have you moaners been riding not to understand Ride To The Conditions?

[idleidolidyll]

Forget the money read the first para of my post. And before you say that race tracks are made from hotmix therefore must provide better grip - the surfacing has to withstand much much higher cornering forces without being ripped to shreads.

R

too late

now please be kind enough to provide the friction coeffiecient for both materials

BTW: it's the basecourse and hotmix proportions that provide a road with its strength.
FYI: I worked in the construction industry for decades, rollers and pavers were my staple, FH and WorksCorp were my biggest customers

[cooneyr]

Hm. I have never experienced any issues with adhesion on concrete, even when wet.

And I suggest that the grip quality of chip seal is overrated. Granted it may be good when the seal is new and the edges of the chips are sharp. But I have observed that after a while, the chips become polished and rounded and then the grip becomes quite poor. You can spot the polished off chip seal when riding, I always treat it with great caution.

If concrete is so expensive, why was it used extensively for roads in the 1930s through 50s (those that were not gravel off course). There was less money then than now.

I have argued before that in fact , in the long run, concrete is CHEAPER than chip seal, because it lasts so well. Those 1930s concrete roads are mostly STILL there, buried under a few inches of hotmix. You can see them when they rip the hot mix off to relay it, and the concrete is STILL in good nick, after more than half a century.

You are quite correct - chip does get polished. This is one of the things that sets the standard behing sources of rock for chip and the interval behind sealing.

Concrete was used back in the "old days" cause that is what the yanks did. It is a good material if you have really really crappy ground to go over, poor quality or not enough aggregate and very very high volumes of traffic (higher than we have in NZ). The last point explains why the concrete is still OK(ish) today - the very low traffic volumes. There are a couple of stretches still here in little old chch.

Damn it, yer allright, (ammo for you) it is damn expensive to lay first time round too even if it does have a long life cycle.

R

[jonbuoy]

Your safety is in your hands,not the hands of others.I don't care if nothing is ever done on our roads,they will revert back to gravel and I'll be happy.How long have you moaners been riding not to understand Ride To The Conditions?

How can you ride to the conditions if you don't know they are going to change around the next bend? Or should we all be riding at 80KM/h just in case?

[cooneyr]

too late

now please be kind enough to provide the friction coeffiecient for both materials

BTW: it's the basecourse and hotmix proportions that provide a road with its strength.
FYI: I worked in the construction industry for decades, rollers and pavers were my staple, FH and WorksCorp were my biggest customers

Done have the data re skid resistance off hand.

The the stength of pavements - basecourse provides the strength if thin surfacing like chipseal or <40mm of hotmix. Can stabilise the crap subgrade you guys have upnorth to help if structural pavement not justified. Structural (notice the name) hotmix or concrete is generally over 100mm. Apart from an airport and some very limited locations in auckland find me a site with 100 or greater of hotmix in nz.

What happend to works anyway. Down here in canterbury here are ambny instances of where they can build a chipseal road for shit. Use to do a good job but not anymore.

R

[idleidolidyll]

the honest answer to why NZ uses chipseal rather than other surfaces has nothing to do with friction.
it's about money, particularly in rural areas. gravel is relatively plentiful and cheap in NZ and often a crusher can easily be set up near a river bed where the material is plentiful.
the road designers do not pay much attention to the damage done to motorcyclists skidding along their chipseal roads nor to the highly elevated wear rates of tyres. Our costs are hardly thier issue, their costs define their ability to win tenders.

but we digress, the issue is not just one of current road works and the use of chipseal. As previously mentioned, it is about seemingly permanent potholes, shiny surfaces, truck damage, armco barriers and much more.
NZ roads are not designed or maintained with motorcyclists in mind.

[idleidolidyll]

Done have the data re skid resistance off hand.

The the stength of pavements - basecourse provides the strength if thin surfacing like chipseal or <40mm of hotmix. Can stabilise the crap subgrade you guys have upnorth to help if structural pavement not justified. Structural (notice the name) hotmix or concrete is generally over 100mm. Apart from an airport and some very limited locations in auckland find me a site with 100 or greater of hotmix in nz.

What happend to works anyway. Down here in canterbury here are ambny instances of where they can build a chipseal road for shit. Use to do a good job but not anymore.

R

why thanks for underlining my point that it's about cost and that motorcyclists safety doesn't enter the equation cooneyr

[cooneyr]

but we digress, the issue is not just one of current road works and the use of chipseal. As previously mentioned, it is about seemingly permanent potholes, shiny surfaces, truck damage, armco barriers and much more.
NZ roads are not designed or maintained with motorcyclists in mind.

You might as well ask why is helen in power. You are entering the relm of policies and politics which we could debate all day, I however have work to do building/validating a transportation model - been nabbed.

Read this thread for more arguments/discussions.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=29772

R

[idleidolidyll]

Done have the data re skid resistance off hand.

The the stength of pavements - basecourse provides the strength if thin surfacing like chipseal or <40mm of hotmix. Can stabilise the crap subgrade you guys have upnorth to help if structural pavement not justified. Structural (notice the name) hotmix or concrete is generally over 100mm. Apart from an airport and some very limited locations in auckland find me a site with 100 or greater of hotmix in nz.

What happend to works anyway. Down here in canterbury here are ambny instances of where they can build a chipseal road for shit. Use to do a good job but not anymore.

R

BTW cooneyr, I'm from Makarewa in Southland and a long time ex resident of Chch by way of Avonside, Lyttelton and Corsair Bay. Indeed a decade at least of my construction employment was in your region and Chch CC, FH, Works Corp etc plus the hire companies were all my best customers. I worked orignally for Compacting Equipment Ltd opposite Wigram. The company is now no more but you should define their business forte from the company name. We sold Sakai, BlawNox, Takeuchi, TCM etc

and thanks for underlining my point that it's about cost and that motorcyclists safety doesn't enter the equation mr cooneyr

it's been pleasant discussing this with you all and all opinions are appreciated.
i'll take action my way and of course you are free to join me or not

[idleidolidyll]

You might as well ask why is helen in power. You are entering the relm of policies and politics which we could debate all day, I however have work to do building/validating a transportation model - been nabbed.

Read this thread for more arguments/discussions.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=29772

R

poloicies and politics are EXACTLY the issue Mr CooneyR and that is the point being made.
Unless we bring this issue to the attention of the decision makers, nothing will ever be done; they rely on Kiwis to sit on their arses and whine but not to actually do anything.

[scumdog]

poloicies and politics are EXACTLY the issue Mr CooneyR and that is the point being made.
Unless we bring this issue to the attention of the decision makers, nothing will ever be done; they rely on Kiwis to sit on their arses and whine but not to actually do anything.

We motorcyclists don't have the numbers or political clout to make any difference, grin and bear it.

[idleidolidyll]

We motorcyclists don't have the numbers or political clout to make any difference, grin and bear it.

as i said, that's exactly the attitude they rely on; it saves them lots of dosh

[scumdog]

as i said, that's exactly the attitude they rely on; it saves them lots of dosh

So the positive thing we can do is??

It's all in the numbers, end of story, we haven't a chance even if we did not have the attitude you mentioned.

[Motu]

It's all in the numbers, .

I think post count numbers is what he is after....

[Ixion]

How can you ride to the conditions if you don't know they are going to change around the next bend? Or should we all be riding at 80KM/h just in case?


Back to the first point. "Ride at all times so as to be able to safely stop in the clear hazard free length of road visible". Sorted. If that means 80kph then it means 80kph. Not saying we do it all the time - but if we don't and something nasty (like a bathtub) *is* lurking round that blind corner we have only ourselves to blame for not following the rule , don't we ?

[cooneyr]

Alright I'm back (looks over sholder). Scumdog is right we are a minority. With respect to policy changes I think i would prefer they are left alone. I'm definatly for personaly responsibility rather than even more of a nanny state.

I also subscribe to the horse for course philosophy. No point in having the absolute best everywhere if It means I'm so heavly taxed that I can afford a bike.

Ride the the conditions if they change reduce your speed (sing along you'all)

R

[idleidolidyll]

So the positive thing we can do is??

It's all in the numbers, end of story, we haven't a chance even if we did not have the attitude you mentioned.

mate, it's true i'm a PR graduate and from that i can also tell you that you'd be horrified at just how small numbers can be to be regarded as 'significant' by MP's, Councils etc.
ask any City Councillor and you'll discover that if they receive 5 letters on the same subject from 5 different people, they think it's an issue that should be aired at the least and dealt with at best.

the thing is, if everyone is convinced that we can't muster the numbers required, Kiwi apathy suggests we never will

[jahrasti]

I mean like this : http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=39552
After repair work, everyone understands roads have to be maintained, fresh seal is not a problem as long as we know about it. When the signs are not put up or taken away too soon then it is a problem.

Then tell Transit. I keep reading 'what can we do about it'.
Remember i said Transit don't do the work. If you tell them about dodgy processes then the contactor will be sorted.They actually are pretty good at giving a shit.

[jahrasti]

I don't know about down south but who uses river stone now days?
If you worked in the industry then you will know the specs that the material(m4 etc) must meet.
If we want the road resealed with hot mix then where does the money come from? I bet Transit don't have enough. I would love beutiful roads that flow, have limitless grip etc, I would be behind you 100% but untill who ever is in charge gives them the money then it is status qua.

[idleidolidyll]

Then tell Transit. I keep reading 'what can we do about it'.
Remember i said Transit don't do the work. If you tell them about dodgy processes then the contactor will be sorted.They actually are pretty good at giving a shit.

been there done that, waste of time, nothing changed

nobody's forcing you to join my protest

do you work for transit or FH?

[idleidolidyll]

I don't know about down south but who uses river stone now days?
If you worked in the industry then you will know the specs that the material(m4 etc) must meet.
If we want the road resealed with hot mix then where does the money come from? I bet Transit don't have enough. I would love beutiful roads that flow, have limitless grip etc, I would be behind you 100% but untill who ever is in charge gives them the money then it is status qua.

southern councils still crush river stone if they can get the required resource consent, probably some of the northern ones too; depends more on the quantity avaiolable and the grade

as for naming specific councils or contractors, pedantic in extremis

as for staus quo, that's the point: it ISN'T status quo: roads and maintenance plans are designed around 4 and more wheeled vehicles. It's just assumed that what's good for them is good for us too. otherwise why would they give us cheese graters and chip seal?

[idleidolidyll]

Alright I'm back (looks over sholder). Scumdog is right we are a minority. With respect to policy changes I think i would prefer they are left alone. I'm definatly for personaly responsibility rather than even more of a nanny state.

I also subscribe to the horse for course philosophy. No point in having the absolute best everywhere if It means I'm so heavly taxed that I can afford a bike.

Ride the the conditions if they change reduce your speed (sing along you'all)

R

mate, you're already heavily taxed for roading through fuel taxes.
the problem is they don't spend all that money on the roads; up to 50% goes into various slush funds. don't you care what your supposed road tax is spent on?

[jahrasti]

been there done that, waste of time, nothing changed

nobody's forcing you to join my protest

do you work for transit or FH?

neither, the company I work for is Transits service provider for SH 3,4,39,31,30.
I am not interested in starting a shit fight, but to say that instead of bitching about it on line IF it is a state highway then complain to Transit.
We can be asked to explain ourselves to transit of they believe there is a problem.
As to the chipseal issue, it is a big can of worms to which people that give themselves big payrises each year can answer.
My PERSONAL opinion is that chip seal is fine PROVIDED that the base coarse is constructed correctly and water does not penetrate during the sealing process.(sealing with water in the basecoarse etc)
If you are going to write on the road I believe that won't achieve anything but vandalise the road and spray paint can last for months and still be clearly visible.
Will the motorcyclist see and understand what you have written if they are travelling at 100kph?
If you can take the fight to MP's full power to you.

[jahrasti]

[QUOTE=idleidolidyll;850798] otherwise why would they give us cheese graters


I to despise cheese graters, jeepers something in common what going on in this crazy world we live in.

[idleidolidyll]

neither, the company I work for is Transits service provider for SH 3,4,39,31,30.
I am not interested in starting a shit fight, but to say that instead of bitching about it on line IF it is a state highway then complain to Transit.
We can be asked to explain ourselves to transit of they believe there is a problem.
As to the chipseal issue, it is a big can of worms to which people that give themselves big payrises each year can answer.
My PERSONAL opinion is that chip seal is fine PROVIDED that the base coarse is constructed correctly and water does not penetrate during the sealing process.(sealing with water in the basecoarse etc)
If you are going to write on the road I believe that won't achieve anything but vandalise the road and spray paint can last for months and still be clearly visible.
Will the motorcyclist see and understand what you have written if they are travelling at 100kph?
If you can take the fight to MP's full power to you.



I am not interested in starting a shit fight

It's not a shit fight jahrasti, it's a signal of frustration at being perceived as 2nd class citizens ever since I can remember but more so in the last 15 years.
i asked that question because i had a suspicion you had some kind of vested interest other than m/bikes.

i worked in construction for decades mate and as you do too you'll recognise a few of the products my company sold: Blaw Knox, Sakai, TCM and prior to that Bomag etc.

trust me on this one, i HAVE asked the question through the right channels but nothing has ever been done except on individual problems. The powers that be need to understand that the high ACC rate for motorcyclists has more reasons behind it than just poor riding.

[[ Will the motorcyclist see and understand what you have written if they are travelling at 100kph?]]
Well why not? They are expected to be able to see the hazards themselves and react in time to prevent an accident. Highlighting them can't make them any LESS visible.
I'm not interested in the micro level of awareness with regard to an individual contractors work, I'm interested in the macro perspective that treats motorcyclists as 2nd class citizens. That means highways AND council roads.

The only way we'll see whether motorcyclists will see hazard warnings is to try it. Bad potholes, invisible gravel on chipseal roads, shiny tar, truck deformations etc are targets. I figure a circle around the problem so it can be avoided and a warning before it so the rider knows it's coming will suffice.

BTW: given the 'concern' you seem to have at just the idea of it, i feel encouraged to go ahead and do it; obviously it WILL be noticed.

[_Gina_]

I think post count numbers is what he is after....
If it looks like a dog, smells like a dog, barks like a dog.....
It could always be a cat pretending to be a dog I s'pose.....

[Ghost Lemur]

why certainly. that is indeed one option. obviously i prefer another option; ensuring the safety of the roads to the best of their ability for all road users

i never said there were any guarantees in life, even social contracts are subject to the good will of the parties

however, please don't confine your comments to road works and gravel leftovers. this thread was intended to identify potholes, slippery shiny surfaces, off camber corners, grooves running down the the road around corners and more.

the surest way to ensure nothing is done for motorcycle safety on our roads is to accept the status quo and blame the victim for the accident


If ANY government has to choose between spending billions more on roads or dropping the national open road limit to 80kph, it's not hard to see which they'll choose.

Personally I'm for letting Darwin take care of the problem and not blaming anyone other than the one in control of themselves.

You may want to live in a Nanny state where the goverment protects you from dangers, but I'll stick to have that responsibility myself (and the freedom that that entails).

[idleidolidyll]

If it looks like a dog, smells like a dog, barks like a dog.....
It could always be a cat pretending to be a dog I s'pose.....

wow! it's amazing how many thin skinned people here are challenged by motorcycle discussions

[_Gina_]

I think the word I am looking for is....context - (feel free to correct me if I have fucked it up)

I have no idea whether you are seriously offended, having a laugh or taking the piss with your responses to different posts in this thread and others.

And hey, having thick skin is not all that bad is it??? It's kinda like having extra protection when you fall off your bike and the leathers wear through on the coarse chip....

:)

[Hitcher]

it's true i'm a PR graduate

Please god, tell me that qualifications aren't being issued in this subject matter. Run, run to the hills!

[Motu]

How can you ride to the conditions if you don't know they are going to change around the next bend?

Oh boy - ok,you come around a corner and find a patch of unmarked gravel,a bloody great pothole or some such.You crash and do much damage to your bike,it's even written off,and you broke your collar bone and sprained a finger.Some one is to blame,the bloody roading contactor I expect....you make him pay for your bike and loss of earnings.

Same corner,same conditions,same speed - you come around the corner and find an unmarked two year old girl...you can't stop in the available distance,run her down and kill her.Some one is to blame,the stupid parents I expect....

I know who I will blame.

[HTFU]

quote - it would be much harder for the govt and transit NZ to ignore motorcycles and bicycles. I'm keen to give it a go, any takers?

Bro go hard, I don't think any rider would disagree with the state of our sealed highways and the frustration of nothing changing (as with everything - health, roads, education, legal system, crime etc) . Even those who like gravel hate it on the top of the seal. These hybrid roads our taxes pay for also cause cars to come to grief, so yes, as some have stated, its our responsibility to be careful and weary of every bend you ride but the general state of them is in my humble opinion is still not up to standard.

So do like a South Aucklander and mark your territory ( paint, signs, tags are all good ideas for those who have the energy and passion - I mean shock horror people actually acting on their discontent of a government system - how dare you). As for the politics of the whole issue (political issues seem to get the most replies) two words "liberal government" try teaching secondary school level where kids need 10 warnings fully documented for doing stupid things before anything happens. Does your head in as does this roading issue.

As someone new to the world of motorised riding I can see how motorcycle issues are missed in the world of government - as a non rider you just don't see and appreciate the issues. You simply go about your life in the car blind and unaware. I was fully aware of cycling issues and had similar frustrations as a cyclist but you don't give a thought about motorbikes even though there are similar issues.

On a side note I have clocked up 7000km on my 4 month old GN 250 which now sports duro median dual purpose tyres. This little chinese hog goes everywhere (slowly).

Safe riding people.

[crack]

However, "fit for their intended purpose" is driving or riding in a safe,prudent and law abiding fashion. Not racing.

Never quite seen the issue m'self. If you can stop in the clear hazard free length of road visible ahead, then , if you see gravel ahead, just slow down. If you can't stop in time, you are , by definition, not riding in a safe and law abiding fashion.

Only times gravel has scared me is when I've been riding faster than safe visibility. Which has happened. More than a few times. But then I blame myself for not riding safely. Nobody else is responsible for my safety. Just me. And my own observation is that it is rare for there not to be a "road works" sign at the beginning of the stretch. Usually with a 30kph limit sign, which everyone ignores.

So, if a rider doesn't see the gravel, why is he going to see something painted on the road? And if he can't slow down for the gravel, how is he going to slow down for a painted mark? Unless maybe the said rider is riding at excessive speeds?

I don't know about you, or the rest of you, but what happens when you are out in the Suburbs, or out around the hills, all nice and windy, you lean into a corner at 20-30kph, and as you get into the corner, to late you see GRAVEL, down you go, scratch your paint, rip a glove,break a clutch lever, or you are riding in the wet, take a line through a corner, you can see right through the corner, but you can't see the metal manhole, due to the rain, and down you go.

Shit I have even had it where there are no warning signs where there jolly well should have been.

This is bull shit where we have organisations that will only limit there liability to personal damage, not injury, not the cost of getting a lawyer, not the cost of time off work, sorry but IXION, you are wrong.

I do agree with your comment about the concrete roads , very sensible, and practicle solution, it is what they us in the USA, and Europe.

Hang on did I use the word sensible, nah can't have.

:love: :love: :love: :love: :done: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :scooter:

PS: am going to be out of touch for a while, be good now.:love:

[idleidolidyll]

If ANY government has to choose between spending billions more on roads or dropping the national open road limit to 80kph, it's not hard to see which they'll choose.

Personally I'm for letting Darwin take care of the problem and not blaming anyone other than the one in control of themselves.

You may want to live in a Nanny state where the goverment protects you from dangers, but I'll stick to have that responsibility myself (and the freedom that that entails).

do you really think that's the choice?
all that's being asked is for existing regulations to be practiced and for recognition to be given to the fact that certain road conditions are particularly dangerous to single track vehicles.

[Lou Girardin]

The question is whether anyone has tried to sue the roading authorities for criminal nuisance in these cases. We couldn't rely on the Police to take action against a Govt Dept, perhaps a lawyer wanting to make a name for himself would do it on a pro-bono basis.

[idleidolidyll]

quote - it would be much harder for the govt and transit NZ to ignore motorcycles and bicycles. I'm keen to give it a go, any takers?

Bro go hard, I don't think any rider would disagree with the state of our sealed highways and the frustration of nothing changing (as with everything - health, roads, education, legal system, crime etc) . Even those who like gravel hate it on the top of the seal. These hybrid roads our taxes pay for also cause cars to come to grief, so yes, as some have stated, its our responsibility to be careful and weary of every bend you ride but the general state of them is in my humble opinion is still not up to standard.

So do like a South Aucklander and mark your territory ( paint, signs, tags are all good ideas for those who have the energy and passion - I mean shock horror people actually acting on their discontent of a government system - how dare you). As for the politics of the whole issue (political issues seem to get the most replies) two words "liberal government" try teaching secondary school level where kids need 10 warnings fully documented for doing stupid things before anything happens. Does your head in as does this roading issue.

As someone new to the world of motorised riding I can see how motorcycle issues are missed in the world of government - as a non rider you just don't see and appreciate the issues. You simply go about your life in the car blind and unaware. I was fully aware of cycling issues and had similar frustrations as a cyclist but you don't give a thought about motorbikes even though there are similar issues.

On a side note I have clocked up 7000km on my 4 month old GN 250 which now sports duro median dual purpose tyres. This little chinese hog goes everywhere (slowly).

Safe riding people.

well said.

i too am a cyclist as well as a motorcyclist and yes, i drive a tin top too.

as a cyclist i shudder at the unecessary injury and death rate due largely to the lack of a kerb strip that bikes can ride on rural roads: the moment a truck or car passes too close. their lives are in mortal danger. likewise in most of our cities where provision for cyclists is woeful to say the least and downright dangerous in reality. On a trip into Auckland city from Manukau, a distance of 18km, I once counted the potential life threatening situations presented; it was staggering; more than 100 each direction.

As for motorcycles, well you've probably read what I think by now. Too many here have taken the usual escape routes that Kiwis so often take; apathy and the tall poppy syndrome.
Fine, don't do anything but please, don't expect me not to do anything. As motivation all I have to do is remember my wife dropping her little Ducati on a West Coast sealed road covered in invisible gravel or the fear she had when the Kawakawa to Orewa Rd was covered in much the same way after it had been constructed. In both cases there were no warning signs at all.

As I said, I'm happy to make a stand for two wheeled transport. If I'm arrested in the process I will WELCOME the opportunity to put our case before the cameras and newspapers of the country.

[Motu]

Goody - now that he has shone brightly for a short time and extinguished himself we can carry on without his constant interference.So now I can jump over the fence and work from his side and complain about roading contractors.

The randomness and variable quality of the spray with tar and toss on some chip repair puzzles me....response from the guy who knows is welcome.This is a Private Investigation,Not a Public Inquirey.3 I have noticed recently -

Mahia Rd in Sth Auck was done a few months ago,it has mostly come off leaving a hell of a mess,WTF? Why even bother? In Mt Roskill Dornwell Rd and Britten Ave were rechipped - while they were doing it someone dug a trench across the road,they worked around it and the trench was filled with hot mix,while they were still doing the chip!!!! Like...like,oh,I just give up.There is still loose chip because they can't sweep with all the parked cars.Why don't they just close the road,do the job,and finish it....too much PC crap in their way.

The entry and exit of the Rangiriri bridge were done a few days ago - I knew that because the road had paint marks and bad spots marked.There is a hump pushed up in the middle of the corner on the west side,by the Te Kauwhata Transport trucks.It's in the centre of the road and in no ones way...unless you cut the corner or run wide....and it was marked with yellow paint,that's good I thought.So they have rechipped....and the hump is still there,they just tarred and feathered right over the top!

I'm not complaining about the contractors really,they are capable of doing a good job - but there seems to be no guidance from above,they just go and do what they are told,doing what they are told is what they are paid for.Someone can't see the whole picture,it just seems such a waste of manhours we all pay for.

So how's that for changing side mid battle?

[The_Dover]

Perhaps the civil engineers and project managers that are co-ordinating these works should take some responsibility about the quality of the job?

After all, at teh end of the day, someone has to sign off the job do they not?

[dnos]

Seeme to be the way it goes eh.
They were resealing the road outside our flat a couple months ago and not only was i shocked about the lack of effort displayed by the road workers and the time it took to complete, but the finished product was absolute crap. There was no attempt made to sweep the road once marking was done, and the first hot day we had it all melted and was messed up by the small amount of traffic on the road.

Your right these guys are just doing what they are told - all to a contract price. There needs to be some clear guidelines as to just what is expected, and what I really want is some resealing to be done that can last more than six months without breaking up and becoming bumpy potholes and lumps.
On one set of works along the state highway up here one section of resealed road started getting potholes before the rest of the job was even completed! This was fixed, but why can't it be done right the first time?

[cooneyr]

The randomness and variable quality of the spray with tar and toss on some chip repair puzzles me....response from the guy who knows is welcome.This is a Private Investigation,Not a Public Inquirey.3 I have noticed recently -

Following comments in the interests of providing some technical info only - had enough of the politics. Tar is what they use to use till the coal gas plants were closed, now days it is bitumen, which is a heavy component of oil (butane is a light component of oil). Bitument was originally promoted by shell as they had excessive amounts of it liying around and they wanted to find a market. Bitumen is better than tar in that it is a more consistant product.


Mahia Rd in Sth Auck was done a few months ago,it has mostly come off leaving a hell of a mess,WTF? Why even bother? In Mt Roskill Dornwell Rd and Britten Ave were rechipped - while they were doing it someone dug a trench across the road,they worked around it and the trench was filled with hot mix,while they were still doing the chip!!!! Like...like,oh,I just give up.There is still loose chip because they can't sweep with all the parked cars.Why don't they just close the road,do the job,and finish it....too much PC crap in their way.

Most city council standards now requre that any road opening (trench) be surfaced with mix. This is bacause of a number of reason as I understand it
1 - Easier for most contractors to turn up with a bit of mix on a truck than to heat and transport bitumen to site.
2 - High traffic volumes (anywhere in town) generally ruin chip seal before it gets a chance to go off i.e. bitument cool and thinners (desiel/kero) evaporate. This is especially true in turning and accelleration/braking areas including parking areas (even on street parking). Mix is much more durable in a much shorter period.

In saying all of this it is pretty crappy (looks shit if nothing else) to put a mix patch in a brand new seal - especially when seal is being laid at the same time. Some engineer who signed off onthe road open notice should have spotted the overlap of works at the site and adjusted reqirements.

Sweep can sometimes be posponed due to point 2 above. The excess chip protects the seal/bitume while the bitumen is going off. Would have expected that a week should be sufficient though. Any longer than this is lazyness on contractors behalf and poor management for not following through. Also chip seals weill continue to loose chip for quite a long time afterwards (could be a year depending on traffic). This is because often loose chips get caught betwen others and are not swept up but as the stuck chips settle due to traffic the loose chips can become properly loose and flicked out. There can be a supprising amount of this depending on heat of day, how little or much traffic there is and the type of chip seal.


The entry and exit of the Rangiriri bridge were done a few days ago - I knew that because the road had paint marks and bad spots marked.There is a hump pushed up in the middle of the corner on the west side,by the Te Kauwhata Transport trucks.It's in the centre of the road and in no ones way...unless you cut the corner or run wide....and it was marked with yellow paint,that's good I thought.So they have rechipped....and the hump is still there,they just tarred and feathered right over the top!

Trucks turning into yard possibly rolling chip (stones can be turned in bitumen) hence bringing bitument to top (called bleeding). This is a skidding hazard and also causes a mess (ever played in hot bitumen). Old fasion practice is to burn the bitumen off but this produces massive clouds of icky smoke. Now days either waterblast and suck up crap or seal over again with reduced quantities of bitumen to try and stop bleeding. As for hump - chip seal does nothing to smooth a road - that requires diging the lump out and there may be good reason for it being there such as making sure there is the minimum cover over a buried pipe. This is to ensure the loadings on the pipe are not to high as aggregate over a pipe distributeds the load (there is a maximum cover for pipes as well but that is usually 10's of metres deep).

Hope this is informative.
Cheers
R

[_Gina_]

Can't remember where this brain snippet came from (20/20, Talkback, NZ Herald...)

Apparently Utility Services companies are at cross purposes and will often dig up the same section of road to access different cables, lines etc.

This has an impact on all manner of things, not the least of which is the road condition and substandard repair methods.

[cooneyr]

Seeme to be the way it goes eh.
They were resealing the road outside our flat a couple months ago and not only was i shocked about the lack of effort displayed by the road workers and the time it took to complete, but the finished product was absolute crap. There was no attempt made to sweep the road once marking was done, and the first hot day we had it all melted and was messed up by the small amount of traffic on the road.

Your right these guys are just doing what they are told - all to a contract price. There needs to be some clear guidelines as to just what is expected, and what I really want is some resealing to be done that can last more than six months without breaking up and becoming bumpy potholes and lumps.
On one set of works along the state highway up here one section of resealed road started getting potholes before the rest of the job was even completed! This was fixed, but why can't it be done right the first time?

There are detailed standards for all works especially road construction and chip seal. Process comonly used is council asks contractors for price to complete work to require standard (much more to it than that like quality plans etc etc).

Since the minestry of works was disbanded there seems to be a drop in the quality of road construction. I think it may be because some of the skills learnt by the MOW formen etc have been lost. While the process is heavly engineered there is still and art to it.

R

[cooneyr]

Can't remember where this brain snippet came from (20/20, Talkback, NZ Herald...)

Apparently Utility Services companies are at cross purposes and will often dig up the same section of road to access different cables, lines etc.

This has an impact on all manner of things, not the least of which is the road condition and substandard repair methods.

Utilities have the right to put services inthe road but often dont talk to each other and the councils have a nightmare of a task coordinating them so that they dig once and fix many services. Often the utilites dont do a lot of forward planning too so council seals one year then next year service is dug up when coucil would have happily waited till after service was dug up then sealed.

R

[Sanx]

CooneyR has given a number of reasons why repairs and resealing are done in certain ways. I have my own little theory.

The contractors hired by the councils / Transit are working to a budget and hoping to make as much profit as possible. As a result, they do things slowly, badly and with as little quality control as they can get away with. Essentially, to paraphrase the thread title, it's wilful negligence.

This negligence is then compounded by engineers that seem to know jack about their chosen subject. If, as CooneyR states, chip seal in high traffic areas is often ruined because the solvents don't have enough time to go evaporate then why the hell are they putting it there in the first place? Do they not know it gets ruined? Do they not know it's a high traffic area, or - as I feel might be the case - do they simply not give a flying f*ck?

The A12 is a motorway-class road in the UK. It's two or three lanes in each direction and runs between Ipswich in Suffolk and London. A large section of the road, between Marks Tey and Witham (about 20 miles) was built using precast concrete slabs laid in the mid 70s. It lasted almost thirty years before having to be resurfaced, and then the foundations remained solid. The road gets very high levels of traffic - levels that would cripple the Auckland motorway network. Other sections, laid in traditional hotmix, have lasted similar lengths of time.

Now I don't know what the comparitive costs of road laying methods are, but it's been suggested that bunging a quick layer of chipseal down is 12.5% of the cost of hotmix. If a well-constructed hotmix road can last thirty years or more, surely it would be more economical to do the job properly just once than to continually redo the job time and time again leaving a substandard surface and causing incidental economic damage as a result of accidents, damage to vehicles, premature wear, and so on.

The new bit of SH1, near Matamata, has large sections of chipseal. After less than two years, these roads are breaking up. Potholes are developing and the chip is wearing off. This road gets a fraction of the traffic I'm used to from the A12 in the UK, yet the road (seemingly constructed at vast expense) has lasted less than 24 months. At this rate, putting hotmix down would work out cheaper in just 16 years. Assuming a thirty year lifespan, it'd end up costing half as much (and this figure doesn't take into account inflation, increased materials costs, and so on) as the chipseal alternative.

What this country needs is a government who are prepared to invest in infrastructure. Until then, us bikers will have to put up with lazy contractors, mindless road engineers and conditions that are seemingly designed to put as many of us in hospital as possible.

[cooneyr]

The contractors hired by the councils / Transit are working to a budget and hoping to make as much profit as possible. As a result, they do things slowly, badly and with as little quality control as they can get away with. Essentially, to paraphrase the thread title, it's wilful negligence.

I doubt the contractors managers would want things done slowly. Most often they get paid by the job not by the hour, i.e. more jobs more money.


This negligence is then compounded by engineers that seem to know jack about their chosen subject. If, as CooneyR states, chip seal in high traffic areas is often ruined because the solvents don't have enough time to go evaporate then why the hell are they putting it there in the first place? Do they not know it gets ruined? Do they not know it's a high traffic area, or - as I feel might be the case - do they simply not give a flying f*ck?

Cause subject to all the stupid fucks out there respecthing to road itself and not putting the foot down or breaking to hard the road will be ok after a while . Then will last 8ish years with abuse and still shit loads cheaper than hot mix.


The A12 is a motorway-class road in the UK. It's two or three lanes in each direction and runs between Ipswich in Suffolk and London. A large section of the road, between Marks Tey and Witham (about 20 miles) was built using precast concrete slabs laid in the mid 70s. It lasted almost thirty years before having to be resurfaced, and then the foundations remained solid. The road gets very high levels of traffic - levels that would cripple the Auckland motorway network. Other sections, laid in traditional hotmix, have lasted similar lengths of time.

You are right - there is traffic then there is traffic. We dont even get close to the volumes of traffic that justify concrete roads. Engineers have looked at lifecycle costs (including construction, dafety, maintnenace etc etc) for both mix and concrete many times and still cant justfiy its use.

I highly doubt that the mix has lasted 30 years without replacent. Bitumen oxidies and becomes brittle hence mix or chip seal looses stones after time. Mix lasts longer than seal but still around 10-12 years (oh I forgot dont have sun in england so doesnt oxidise - seriously the lack of ozone layer has an effect in that seal layers are shorter hear - think about how long it takes to sun burn in NZ compared to the UK).


Now I don't know what the comparitive costs of road laying methods are, but it's been suggested that bunging a quick layer of chipseal down is 12.5% of the cost of hotmix. If a well-constructed hotmix road can last thirty years or more, surely it would be more economical to do the job properly just once than to continually redo the job time and time again leaving a substandard surface and causing incidental economic damage as a result of accidents, damage to vehicles, premature wear, and so on.

See para above.


The new bit of SH1, near Matamata, has large sections of chipseal. After less than two years, these roads are breaking up. Potholes are developing and the chip is wearing off. This road gets a fraction of the traffic I'm used to from the A12 in the UK, yet the road (seemingly constructed at vast expense) has lasted less than 24 months. At this rate, putting hotmix down would work out cheaper in just 16 years. Assuming a thirty year lifespan, it'd end up costing half as much (and this figure doesn't take into account inflation, increased materials costs, and so on) as the chipseal alternative.

This is nothing to do with the surfacing i.e. chip seal rather a problem with the aggregate underneath. This comes back to my comments earlier about loss of skills following MOW disbandment. If the aggregate is not suitable or the traffic volmes are really high then mix should have been considered. Given that it was sealed I would suggest that the road wasnt constructed properly.

R

[cooneyr]

You fullas and fulleses all carry and argument well but I would suggest that you do some research as to why things happen rather than making assumptions (most of you are) about why things happen. I know - 4 years at uni, 3 summers working for contractors, time working in an engineering lab, time working for transit, time working for councils, and time working for a consultant (all in eleven years worth now).

More than happy to help with referances (where I know of one) but sick of the "its the fault of contractors, chip seal, engineers, do it like this" crap.

Not meaning to attack anyone personally - debate is good as long as it is two way debate.

R

[dnos]

Not meaning to attack anyone personally - debate is good as long as it is two way debate.

R

Nah bro its good to have someone prepared to spend a bit of time giving us these answers. Makes for a much more interesting read than one way whinging.

[madandy]

Cause subject to all the stupid fucks out there respecthing to road itself and not putting the foot down or breaking to hard the road will be ok after a while . Then will last 8ish years with abuse and still shit loads cheaper than hot mix.

Obviously, roading contractors need to be able to restrict or control traffic flow long enough to allow the surface to cure. Allowing heavy vehicles and higher speeds on freshly laid surfaces is going to ruin a road before it has a chance to set. Who decides when to allow traffic back onto new surfaces and to what limitations?

[Motu]

A loss of skills for sure I think.My father worked for Bitumix when I was a boy,and an uncle was a foreman for NZ Roadmakers...my mother used to always give him heaps for turning farmland into roads....his crew made the first motorway from Penrose to Mt Wellington.I know squat about roads,but grew up with words like Blaw Knox as part of my vocabuary.

They know how to make good roads and how to maintain them - the Aucklad motorways for instance.It's a good surface and the repairs and resurfacing are done free of vehicles.I was surprised when they did my end of Carr Rd a few years ago - there is 300mm of hotmix in there,it's certainly not a rough or cheap job.Back roads are often just tar and chip over the existing surface.When I lived on Waiheke Island a lot of roads were sealed when the Island was taken over by Auck City - I would ride my bike to work on a gravel road and ride home on a sealed road.No prep,just sealed.So it's no wonder a lot of our back roads are not that good.There is pressure to be seen to seal the back roads....sealing a road creates more traffic (sports bikes who would never be seen in the area come in hunting packs),Riders crash,riders complain.I'd rather they be left gravel...less traffic less maintenance,less complaining.

[Skyryder]

I have not read all the posts on this but I have been riding off and on for nigh on forty odd years and there is not doubt the state of the roads have 'gone off the boil. That's certainly true out in suberbs. It was not too long ago when local councils had the responsibility along with the now defunct MOW for road repair and construction. Now it's all private contractors who can not wait to get started on the next job.

Skyryder

[sunhuntin]

think our roads are bad?

I will never complain about potholes again!

This is the Russian Federal highway that runs from Moscow to Yakutsk.

The road doesn't have asphalt surface, though it is a vital Federal highway.

Every time it rains, the traffic flow gets paralyzed; these shots were taken a few days before a traffic jam of 600 cars got stuck there. Hunger and lack of the fuel followed, according to witnesses. One woman gave birth to a child right in the public bus she was riding on.

Construction teams were afraid to appear on site because during their previous visit they were beaten by people who were stuck for a few days. People were breaking the locks on the trucks in search of food and warm clothes.

Fuel, food, firearms and steel tow-lines are the things that are needed most these days on this Federal highway.

[scracha]

More than happy to help with referances (where I know of one) but sick of the "its the fault of contractors, chip seal, engineers, do it like this" crap.
R

My observations as a yurropean.

1) Kiwi's do seem to have a "grin and bear it cos we can't make a difference" or "someone else will report the problem" attitude. If I complain about anything I'm called a "wingeing pomm" (I'm not even a bloody pomm) and comments like "if you don't like it then fuck off" normally follow.
2) As I stated before, nobody expects perfect roads. However, I just can't see why the common sense approach of sweeping up gravel isn't applied once it is deemed safe enough for the 50kmph signs to be removed (and maybe again at a later date if some of the stones/chip become loose)
3) Yep, a lot of bikers are to arrogant to go through the roadworks at 50kmph. When guys are working on the road it's not nice and it's not clever.
4) As I stated before, the current road construction process doesn't seem to make long lasting road surfaces. Roads here are have low volumes of traffic (yes, even Auckland) so there's no excuse for a new road to start breaking up after a few months. If local authorities were held responsible for damage caused by neglected roads I'm sure the roads would be in a better state. I'm also sure that taxes would go up as a result (don't think there'd be any reduction in crashes as the better/wider the roads the faster people drive).
5) Why the hell isn't there there an and active riders rights organisation in New Zealand? Organisations like FEMA work. This forum alone has over 5000 members, probably around 2000 are semi-regular "active" members. Why don't WE start one or actively support the existing one (can't remember what it's called)?

[eliot-ness]

Having read through all the posts and being in full agreement as to the low quality of some roads, not all, and , having ridden on roads of the same standard for over twenty years in the UK i'm puzzled about something. Why, when modern bikes are so much better in most respects, did the old bikes handle rough roads so much better than the modern stuff?
We certainly didn't hang about in the old days. Cruising speeds were generally higher than now but I don't remember a time when I was worried about loose chip or potholes and I never had a problem with them, so, I reckon a lot of todays problems are built into the bikes we ride. One thing, steering geometry, in the search for quicker steering, has changed a lot.Great on smooth seal but less stable on the loose stuff. Second, and perhaps more important, Tyres. The old bikes were shod with real tread, designed to handle just about everything you were likely to come up against and you didn't need to check the pressures, Blow 'em up with a bicycle pump and they did the job. Not good enough for todays high performance bikes but adequate for the time. Todays tyres are designed for high grip on smooth surfaces, wet or dry, and high speeds. but on loose surfaces are almost useless. Dropped bars and clipons also give less control. Wide bars and a more upright stance may be retro and not be the look a sportsbike rider wants but they certainly give more control when things go pear shaped. In short, manufacturers have provided what modern bikers want but road designers haven't, and in the case of rural back roads it's unlikely they ever will.

[cooneyr]

think our roads are bad?

I will never complain about potholes again!

This is the Russian Federal highway that runs from Moscow to Yakutsk.

The road doesn't have asphalt surface, though it is a vital Federal highway.

Every time it rains, the traffic flow gets paralyzed; these shots were taken a few days before a traffic jam of 600 cars got stuck there. Hunger and lack of the fuel followed, according to witnesses. One woman gave birth to a child right in the public bus she was riding on.

Construction teams were afraid to appear on site because during their previous visit they were beaten by people who were stuck for a few days. People were breaking the locks on the trucks in search of food and warm clothes.

Fuel, food, firearms and steel tow-lines are the things that are needed most these days on this Federal highway.

That is awsome. You fullas can have your sealed road arguments - I want roads like that!!!! Not supprising I liked the segment when Chalie and Ewan did the Road of Bones.

Thanks for that Sunhuntin

Cheers
R

[Motu]

Ah! At last,someone who has seen the real problem - it's the bikes.But you can't tell these guys they are riding the wrong bike for the condition,'cause their bike's real fast y'know.The ideal bike for NZ conditions has a 50/50 weight dist,low CG,almost upright riding position,pegs under your but and wide bars - and that doesn't mean a dirt bike,there are plenty of bikes out there set up like that.Not super fast,but not dangerous when something out of the ordinary crops up.

[Ixion]

The old bikes, even the 500s and 650 also had wheel and tyre sizes better suited to bad roads. 19" fronts and at most a 4 1/2 inch rear tyre.

[Motu]

And tread - remember when tyres had that?.....did they or am I just dreaming again?

[Ixion]

I think it was (is) the type of tread. Modern road tyres have tread, but the grooves are those wiggly snail trail things. The old tyres (the rears anyway) had squarish tread patterns, which could flick gravel and stones out of the way. And the rib tread on things like Speedmasters made them directionally stable if the front hit gravel, they'd just flick sideways a bit.

[Biff]

However, "fit for their intended purpose" is driving or riding in a safe,prudent and law abiding fashion. Not racing.

Never quite seen the issue m'self. If you can stop in the clear hazard free length of road visible ahead, then , if you see gravel ahead, just slow down. If you can't stop in time..

So by your definition you have a legal responsibility but the local authorities and contractors don't?

The onus of responsibility is shared.

[Ixion]

Perhaps the legal responsibility is shared, but the pain is not. My responsibility to myself (and my wife etc) means that I must regard my safety as my responsibility, up to me. Not much fun crying "but I'm only half responsible" from a hospital bed.

[James Deuce]

Ah! At last,someone who has seen the real problem - it's the bikes.But you can't tell these guys they are riding the wrong bike for the condition,'cause their bike's real fast y'know.The ideal bike for NZ conditions has a 50/50 weight dist,low CG,almost upright riding position,pegs under your but and wide bars - and that doesn't mean a dirt bike,there are plenty of bikes out there set up like that.Not super fast,but not dangerous when something out of the ordinary crops up.
Took me a while to get that, but now I've done it, I'll probably end up on a chook chaser eventually.

[Ixion]

Which prompts me to ask, why don't bikes have wider bars? Some do of course, but most sporty bikes (and all those with clip ons) are quite narrow.

For almost any purpose, wider bars, within reason, will give better control.

And on road bikes, I can't see a downside to wider bars. On the track, wider bars might reduce aerodynamic efficiency, so there is some logic in keeping things as narrow as possible. . But looking at sprotsbikes, it appears that almost always the fairing with lights, indicators, mirrors etc is wider than the bars, so extending the latter should make no difference.

Obviously, there are limits.

[Dai]

Which prompts me to ask, why don't bikes have wider bars? Some do of course, but most sporty bikes (and all those with clip ons) are quite narrow.

For almost any purpose, wider bars, within reason, will give better control.

And on road bikes, I can't see a downside to wider bars. On the track, wider bars might reduce aerodynamic efficiency, so there is some logic in keeping things as narrow as possible. . But looking at sprotsbikes, it appears that almost always the fairing with lights, indicators, mirrors etc is wider than the bars, so extending the latter should make no difference.

Obviously, there are limits.

WHY?

Because Sex and Sex Appeal Sells.

Marketing will always produce what ever sells.

We all love to watch our heros in our sports and we all secretly wish we could be just like them.

In our sport it is the competition bikes.

F1 is sexy, we see our favourite riders like Rossi and co and we wish to emulate them. We buy the gear to look just like them. We buy the bikes to look just like them.

Motorbike companies are in the business of selling bike. If they can sell more bikes by making them look like our heroes models they will and this means we will buy bikes with narrow racing bars.

It may not be F1 that floats your boat but I am willing to wager that we all have someone we would love to emulate. Be it in F1, motocross, endurance, drag racing or trials.

Ixon, who have you admired in the motorcycle sports?

I bet that that admiration has led you in some way to the bike you presently ride or have ridden.

It may not even be the field of sports. How many Harley rider have seen Easy Rider? How many wish to emulate the freedom expressed in that movie.

Old bike riders. How many of you watched Steve McQueen in "The Great Escape" and wanted an old beemer or trail bike.

How many of us lately have seen "The Worlds Fastest Indian" and wished we could do something like Bert Munro?

The list goes on.

These are my personal view and in no way reflect the attitude of Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki et al.

Unless they really do and the only reason they are involved in bike racingis to sell more bikes.

Chris

[Lou Girardin]

Just by sheer co-incidence, I had two Aussies rent bikes yesterday. They went up 16 and did the Dargaville - Whangarei - Mangawhai loop, they were really impressed with the amount of road works and the way loose chip was left all over the roads. They were also very grateful for the way the road workers would wet the construction areas before they let vehicles through.
This just doesn't happen in their part of Queensland.
What is it about NZ'ers that we let Govt agencies treat us like morons?

[Motu]

They have water in Australia? I bet their road workers would love to wet the road down....but they need the water to fight fires I suppose.

[idleidolidyll]

Was it some kind of conspiracy? Did Transit NZ set me up?
Did one of you whiners figure out our ride map and set the trap?

Buggered if I know but NZ's crap roads GOT me last night on the way back to Clevedon. New tyre on the back of the Supermoto (the Pirelli Scorpion) so the usual bald trye puncture wasn't the excuse.
No, it was a CONSPIRACY I tell ya!
It was Transit NZ, some contractor who read my rant or one of YOU bastards who read my mind and booby trapped our route.

And DAMMIT! you did it well too. That cut was BIG. Yes, i did manage to get a worm into it and 3 small botles of CO2 to limp home on, but there was no way the tyre shop was gonna let me outta there riding on that tyre! Kaching! Fork over $350 for your new tyre sir, you will not be allowed to use the remaining 5mm of tread left on the 'old' one.

So I owe you bastards, I'm filling up my gas bottles and I'm gonna set the goddam flames on maximum!

[Edbear]

[COLOR=Yellow][SIZE=3][COLOR=Cyan]Was it some kind of conspiracy? Did Transit NZ set me up?
Did one of you whiners figure out our ride map and set the trap?


You learn fast...:yes:

Back on topic... The Manufacturers make what sells, as has been well pointed out. I've noticed an increase in the number of "multi-road" bikes lately so when they become as sexy as GSX-R's and R1's, etc. the manufacturers will jump on the bandwagon. It's not the manufacturers that need educating, it's the riders!

I intend to upgrade my 'F' to something like a DL1000 V-Strom or similar, just wish they were a bit better looking. HAving said that there are a few manufacturers beginning to design some good looking multi-road bikes. I love the 'F' on most roads, but plan on doing a bit of touring over the holidays and a V-Strom would be far better suited to where I want to travel.

The roading authorities should be looking at safety far more than they do rather than simply accepting the lowest quote, of course, but I'm also reminded of an old poem: "Here lies the body of William Gray, he died maintaining his right of way. He was right, dead right as he rode along, but now he's just as dead as if he was dead wrong."

Take responsibility for your own life. Fat lot of good complaining about it being the road's fault if you bin. It's still you that suffers.

[idleidolidyll]

How's this for a start.

Many here agree that it's negligent to have unmarked road works with gravel left all over a sealed road.
Many also want to point out other road defects that Transit etc may not realise are dangerous to motorbikes more than to cars (if they don't have the info they can claim the "It's not negligence" defence).

Anyway, I reckon there have been enough comments to indicate that most motorcyclists would like to see something done about this issue other than go through the tedium and burocracy of an official complaint to Transit NZ.
On that note I'll write to Transit and contact them by phone to see if we can set up some kind of feedback forum here where bikers can report road dangers and unmarked roadworks so that Transit can get onto their cases.
That way we could post the location of the danger and get Transit onto the case fairly quickly. It would also ensure that they could NOT claim that they "didn't know" that certain road conditions are dangerous to bikes.

Once in place, such a thread could become a resource for our use as we cruise the roads. It would be great if those with GPS devices could send in specific locations and lengths of unmarked roadworks and road hazards.

[jahrasti]

We should get sky cars up and running then we could moan about something completly different?

[Roj]

That is awsome. You fullas can have your sealed road arguments - I want roads like that!!!! Not supprising I liked the segment when Chalie and Ewan did the Road of Bones.

Thanks for that Sunhuntin

Cheers
R


Now they had problems with roads, great series that, watched it on DVD:scooter:

[Roj]

I probably don't ride as fast as some, but my old girl will go just about anywhere on a formed road, I have been over gravel and roadworks, been through unmarked bits of gravel, the worst problems I have experienced have been deisel spills in light rain, these have made my bike twicth more than anything else. Maybe I just ride too slow...:scooter:

I will agree that the quality of road building seems to have declined (this is a subjective view) and perhaps this is where those who feel something should be done should make the push, I know some older ex MOW workers, one of the things they have noted is that "modern " roading includes sealing in winter which they would never do because the roads would take to long to cure as well as they would leave a road unsealed for an extended period of time to use traffic to compact the base

BRONZ seems to be one of the few bikers lobby groups, we should support them, and if they are not good enough, get in there and work to improve the organisation rather than run it done, that way an effective lobby group can be set up, it is not numbers that count but just how squeaky the wheel is

[EZAS]

Touchy subject for me, my grandfather has worked on the roads for nearly 50 years. He has also ridden bikes for the majority of that period and bought be my first bike when I was 6.

I wouldn't say you can specifically blame one NZ transit for not sweeping up the roads. I've had a "shark" cut me off and spit gravel all over my 900cc Justy just to pull someone over and give them a warning. I got out to give him an earful. Despite the fact that he didn't care he had nearly run me off the road, put stone chips in the bonnet and blinded me with the gravel, he said that it was the my job as a member of the public to identify and report faults, so If I had an issue with how the "gravel" I should either get my ass on harbour bridge and sweep it up, or complain to the LTNZ.

In my area its rather easy to identify where "gravel" or bad road surface area's are located. Ain't no gravel on the motorway.

[scumdog]

Was it some kind of conspiracy? Did Transit NZ set me up?
Did one of you whiners figure out our ride map and set the trap?

Buggered if I know but NZ's crap roads GOT me last night on the way back to Clevedon. New tyre on the back of the Supermoto (the Pirelli Scorpion) so the usual bald trye puncture wasn't the excuse.
No, it was a CONSPIRACY I tell ya!
It was Transit NZ, some contractor who read my rant or one of YOU bastards who read my mind and booby trapped our route.

And DAMMIT! you did it well too. That cut was BIG. Yes, i did manage to get a worm into it and 3 small botles of CO2 to limp home on, but there was no way the tyre shop was gonna let me outta there riding on that tyre! Kaching! Fork over $350 for your new tyre sir, you will not be allowed to use the remaining 5mm of tread left on the 'old' one.

So I owe you bastards, I'm filling up my gas bottles and I'm gonna set the goddam flames on maximum!

Blame the homie losers that drink their lollie water 'alcopops' and then throw the bottles out the window of the 87 Corrona they're trying to look cool in.

[NighthawkNZ]

Blame the homie losers that drink their lollie water 'alcopops' and then throw the bottles out the window of the 87 Corrona they're trying to look cool in.

:killingme

[dnos]

Blame the homie losers that drink their lollie water 'alcopops' and then throw the bottles out the window of the 87 Corrona they're trying to look cool in.

Now if they were driving an alcopop and drinking corona, then at least they would have a nice drink.