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zooter
9th December 2006, 15:13
TTR600 only has kickstart. I keep flooding it and it's a beatch after that to get started. I'm only 65kg so it's all about technique for me to get her firing before she floods. Any pointers?
How many strokes does each healthy kick produce? All going well she bursts into life on the third kick. If I don't quite get enough welly into it on that magic third she's all over. Seems to be something about getting enough mixture sucked in, and let out again with the decompression gizmo, with enough violence to recompress with enough spark.

Vagabond
9th December 2006, 15:50
Make sure you're on the compression stroke before using the decompression lever and then give it one good kick, also don't open the throttle wide as this will flood it quicker. (barely blip the throttle)
Repeat sequence to find compression stroke and try again!

Motu
9th December 2006, 17:02
Don't get flusterd,keep calm and your mind upon the task,doing all the steps in order.It's embarressing blocking off a hill being stalled,but don't let it get to you.....it'll be even more embaressing when you flood it.

Mr. Peanut
9th December 2006, 17:31
Embarrassing? Cool bike!

NordieBoy
9th December 2006, 17:37
Get to TDC.
Decomp to get just past TDC.
Annnndddd jump on the kickstart.
Stay away from the throttle!

If flooded then kick it over a few times with the decomp held in and full throttle.

xwhatsit
9th December 2006, 23:36
OK I'll spell it out what NordieBoy and others are saying, because you sound n00by like me. I too have a kickstart only bike, mine's a single (is yours as well? I can't tell from google image search), so it's difficult to start. Add to that mine has major starting issues, and I'm less than your 65kg as well.

If your decompression lever isn't automatically on when you use the kickstart, turn it on. Pull out the choke a tiny bit, it sounds like you're using too much if you're flooding it. You will learn eventually where the right place to leave the choke is (different bikes like different settings), but it sounds like you're using too much right now. Don't use any throttle at all, your carbs aren't set up right if you need any.

First just push the kickstart down gently until it becomes harder to push. This means you're on the compression stroke. Next, remembering not to touch the throttle, give it an almighty boot. I find standing on the other peg and really getting some air helps, as I'm lighter than you. Try to follow through with the kick right through, I find if I don't do this I don't get the extra revolutions the engine needs. If it doesn't start, be sure to get the engine on the compression stroke again before booting it again. This maximises the number of power strokes you're getting for each kick.

If you can smell fuel, stop immediately, as you're on your way to flooding it. Push your choke right in, you won't need it anymore. If flooding still remains a problem, try not using the choke at all. Most more modern carbed bikes have a little fuel pump connected to the throttle -- each time you open the throttle, the carb sprays some extra fuel in. I find that I can start the engine from cold without the choke by this method (you won't flood it either). Kick it a couple of times with no choke, then before the third kick, rev the throttle a couple of times, which will get the extra fuel you need to start. Then (let go of throttle again!), kick it and it should fire into life.

Good luck... there's an art to it... after pissing around with my broken bike, I can kickstart almost anything that others can't (have done so twice with other people's bikes who couldn't start them in the city), but I still have problems with mine (it's broken... I have to bump start mine quite often).

Ask Ixion if you still can't get things working, he's of the old school of big singles, which I gather are complete bitches to start using your leg.

zooter
10th December 2006, 14:12
Thanks for the insights so far.
I think some better understanding of how it works would help with the maintenance of Zen while kicking it in the guts.
The decompression is automatic. It seems to decompress at the top of the kick if I've nudged it up to compression stroke. Not too sure if I'm just not kicking hard enough or started from the wrong point but sometimes I get 3/4 through the kick and feel "here we go, this is gonna fire" and all of a sudden I hit a wall of compression which would need a Jona Lomu sized leg to push on through. I wonder if that is when it's flooded and I'm trying to compress liquid?

I suspect the decomp only works on the top part of the kick stroke to let the kickee get some inertia into the flywheel before the next compression stroke does the business. Starting hot is generally straightforward.

When it's acting up it won't go through TDC at the top of the kick without a fight.

xwhatsit
10th December 2006, 14:37
The `wall of compression'; I had that when I first reassembled my top end... turned out to be my decompresser cable was not adjusted quite right. I don't know if you have a workshop manual or anything but you may need to adjust the cable, mine has a pair of locknuts on it that you turn until the cable has about 10mm of free play. Of course, it may be the flooding thing, and when I adjusted the decompression cable that was just a red herring.

See the other thing, is that if you get the bike to TDC before you boot it, you've got it through that wall of compression first thing, so you've got plenty of movement from then on. Also as you say it decompresses anyway first thing, so that may help a lot.

Strictly speaking you don't need the decompresser anyway... when I was having starting issues I disconnected the cable to see if it made it any easier to start, which it didn't, and got me more tired (it only kicked back once though :D), but they didn't have them in times gone by and I'm smaller than you and managed to get by with out it. Electric starters are for the weak, anyway ^_^.

Henk
10th December 2006, 17:23
Got the same bike. Easy to start hot or cold. Not so good lukewarm.
My techinique

On the for real kicks wind it over until you hear / feel the decompressor click over.

cold.
Half choke, no throttle, kick it over three times slowly then heave into it. Will usually fire up within the first three real kicks.

Hot
No choke no throttle, just kick it. First time every time

Decompressor cable broke last week. I had to find another way to get to work.

F5 Dave
11th December 2006, 11:49
Is this an off-road bike only? If you are dirt riding this then I can’t imagine a much more miserable noob bike. As a skinny 17yr old I had a TT500 & while it was fine on the road when you only had to start it once a trip in ideal conditions, my first real foray into the dirt was my last. (at least on that bike & put me off for years).

While the real men throw around enormous 4 strokes with aplomb I’m happy to leave them at it (they're all gay I hear). At 5”9 & 78kg I am thankful of a small light bike I can pick up & starts with a half hearted prod. My old kdx fitted the bill.

Ruralman
11th December 2006, 12:01
I don't suppose this bike was the one on Trademe form near Palmerston that sold recently??
Lots of good advise above. If you follow that you'll soon work out what works best for this particular bike. It sounded from one of your comments that maybe you weren't quite finding TDC.
Other than that, eat more pies!!!!!!! - and if you get sick of the bike and want to sell it send me a PM
Cheers

DingDong
11th December 2006, 12:37
So I take it you know how to get the piston to the top, remove the pussy decompression cable, put the bike on its stand, stand up on the pegs and give it all your wieght with a health grunt. (no gas)

Warning! if you bike tends to back-fire, slip your foot off the starter at the end of the stroke... or you could either eat knee cap or fly over the bars.

Decompression is for girls:dodge:

Motu
11th December 2006, 13:38
No no no - don't ''slip you foot off the kickstarter''!!!! A kickstart lever on a kickback rebound is a leathal weapon.Keep your foot on it and absorb the recoil with your leg muscles.On the old Britsh singles I would keep my whole body weight on the lever and let it push me up,absorbing the force with my leg if possible.Don't resist,you haven't got a hope in hell of stoping it.And don't let it take a stab at you with your foot off the lever.

I'm with Dave,I can't imagine a worse bike to learn on.Sure you can learn how to start them at your house,halfway up a muddy gully is not the place to find it's too big a task.

Mr. Peanut
11th December 2006, 14:05
Sounds like fun :) I wanna try.

Crisis management
11th December 2006, 14:25
Don't get put off with this, I'm 65kg and have no problem starting most things. It's all technique not force. Follows Henks instructions and learn how it best likes to be treated but make sure it is in good tune and eveything is working and properly adjusted.

After all that I realise that both my bikes are electric start only.......:gob:

timorang
11th December 2006, 14:57
Just a comment re finding "TDC". Years ago I had two Honda 500 singles (xl and xr) and once the kick start technique was sorted there were no problems, although if I recall correctly it was slightly different cold start vs hot start. With a cold start I would 'push' the kick start through its full rotation a couple of times, but not to start it. No throttle and perhaps a little choke as described by someone previously. TDC was at the point of most resistance. With the compression firming up on TDC I would bring the kick start back up to the top and then down a little to rest on TDC. Then it would be the time to give it the big push down through the complete range of the kick start. Perhaps with a small tweek of the throttle to catch the fire. With hot starting I found it best to pick up TDC straight away without the couple of 'priming' kicks. I have ridden quite a few kick start trailies since and generally this technique has worked with them all.

warewolf
11th December 2006, 14:59
A few comments to consider from someone who's BTDT recently.

Kick-starting big 4T singles when cold is about priming the cylinder/carb then trying to kick it into life. Only the latter step requires effort, and can be wasted effort if you didn't do the former. On the KTM 640 I hold the decomp lever in, kick effortlessly for 5-6 kicks to prime, then release decomp, find TDC, ease past, choke & ignition on, one big kick...voila! :scooter:

It is the speed of the kick at the bottom of the stroke that is important. Slamming the top of the kick doesn't do anything useful, particularly if you are light like me (67kg) in which case you'll bounce off it and have a resultant slow kick and/or not be able to kick it all the way through. Start the kick slow and careful, then accelerate it down once it is moving, slamming into the bottom of the stroke.

Kick it all the way through, as most modern kickstarts disconnect at the top and bottom of the stroke, the latter to avoid kick-back. You'll only get kick-back if you didn't get it all the way down. Kick it down, hold it down, no kick-back.

When hot it often likes just a touch of throttle to help it keep running after firing. We're only talking about one mm on the throttle grip. Open it, hold it steady. Don't wildly pump the throttle, 4Ts don't like that. Just crack it open a smidge and hold it. Don't add choke.

When flooded, you'll need to clear the carb. I'm no expert on this step, but I'm told hold the throttle wide open, pull the decomp, and give it 5-10 kicks to clear it out. Then follow normal hot-start procedure.

The DR-Z250 is auto-decomp only. Priming means kicking it over without trying to start it, a bit harder without the manual decomp. It's much harder to find TDC and to clear when flooded...I cheat & use the button.

btw Flooding means too much fuel (rich), not so full of fuel you'll feel hydraulic lock on compression. That's what breaks conrods & crankcases after water ingestion when the engine is running.

Hope this helps.

timorang
11th December 2006, 15:19
Everything that warewolf says which is right is correct! I think we are in effect saying exactly the same things. If this technique does not work then the bike may need a thorough tune (carb, timing, plug, cables etc). Good luck.

Ixion
11th December 2006, 15:30
Thing to bear in mind when kickstarting or bumpstarting a big single, is that very few people would be strong enough to kick the engine through TDC fast enough to fire it.

So what you have to do is get the engine turning at a reasonable speed BEFORE it hits compression, and then let the weight of the flywheels bump the engine over TDC.

That's why starting the lick on the right part of the cycle is important. Warewolf and others got the cycle right. Turn over a few times with decompressor to get some fuel in the cylinder. Then find compression ease over it , down to the bottom of the stroke, back up, now you've got a whole cycle to get the engine spinning before it hits compression, and the traditional "long swinging kick" with all your weight and strength . Use you body weight , not your leg muscles. Basically jump on the kickstarter not kick it. And make sure you go all the way through then if it kicks you won't break your leg.

Oh, and if by chance you have manual ignition timing RETARD THE IGNITION.

warewolf
11th December 2006, 15:34
Everything that warewolf says which is right is correct! I think we are in effect saying exactly the same things. If this technique does not work then the bike may need a thorough tune (carb, timing, plug, cables etc). Good luck.
yep, you posted while I was writing :-)

Henk
11th December 2006, 17:33
No manual decomp on the TTR, it's driven off the kickstart.
Somebody said "Not a good dirt bike". Correct, I have ridden mine in woodhill and the easy bits of riverhead and it is a tad heavy, you can do it but you have to work quite hard. Stunning bike for gravel roads and twisties though. And you can cart camping gear to all sorts of neat places.

F5 Dave
12th December 2006, 08:55
Yeah, after I said that I realised it wasn't in the Dirt section but the Adventure one. But I would have thought the KDX would have gotten a 'Hell Yeah' from the likes of you.

Off the subject -oh just a little bit -I spied a DT230 on the last trail ride & thought that would make a cracking Adventure bike. Appeared to cope with the trail all right & should be road reliable enough in a way that I wouldn't ride my GasGas a zillion miles. Must look up Motu's old threads. Ahh heck I just bought a house, it is a silly time to think about another bike. But one day it would be good.

zooter
12th December 2006, 11:47
Thankyou one and all. It's nice to have my theoretical suspicions confirmed.
So the priming kicks are akin to a bit of extra "choke" on the very first firing methinks.
This automatic decompression is still a bit of a mystery. I gather it is supposed to make it idiot proof, giving decomp on a kick in the wrong part of the cycle and compression when it might actually catch.
I'll have to figure a way to manually activate it while kicking for clearing flooding. It's easy enough to do from off the bike.

She runs very well and gets 20km/l on the highway so I'm pretty sure it's not a case of tuning.

At the moment the bike is away getting a towbar fitted. The bruises in my shin have just about healed, lucky I didn't catch my kneecap :eek5:

Starting lukewarm looks like the biggest obstacle now. I guess I'll just have to suffer the flooding until I get used to how cold it has to get to need choke. She needs a fair warm up time on choke before she will idle without. Far more than my 1100 or any two stroke I've had. Last time she cold started on the third kick but I killed her pushing in the choke too much too soon. After that all I could get was a cough before flooding again, and again, and again, choke or no choke. Hopefully I am past that now.

Motu
12th December 2006, 12:03
Ahh heck I just bought a house, it is a silly time to think about another bike. .

I bought the DT230 when we bought a house too! I got the DT230 for less than I had accumulated by selling all my other bikes - I was damn lucky to get out of it with the DT!

Ixion
12th December 2006, 12:20
Well it's a matter of priorities, isn't it. I mean, you can't ride a house.

Ixion
12th December 2006, 12:25
Thankyou one and all. It's nice to have my theoretical suspicions confirmed.
So the priming kicks are akin to a bit of extra "choke" on the very first firing methinks.
This automatic decompression is still a bit of a mystery. I gather it is supposed to make it idiot proof, giving decomp on a kick in the wrong part of the cycle and compression when it might actually catch.
I'll have to figure a way to manually activate it while kicking for clearing flooding. It's easy enough to do from off the bike.

She runs very well and gets 20km/l on the highway so I'm pretty sure it's not a case of tuning.

At the moment the bike is away getting a towbar fitted. The bruises in my shin have just about healed, lucky I didn't catch my kneecap :eek5:

Starting lukewarm looks like the biggest obstacle now. I guess I'll just have to suffer the flooding until I get used to how cold it has to get to need choke. She needs a fair warm up time on choke before she will idle without. Far more than my 1100 or any two stroke I've had. Last time she cold started on the third kick but I killed her pushing in the choke too much too soon. After that all I could get was a cough before flooding again, and again, and again, choke or no choke. Hopefully I am past that now.

The priming kicks are just to suck a bit of fuel mix into the cylinder before you go for it. Briddish iron , the carbs had a tickler so you could actually let a bit of raw fuel flow down into the inlet. I miss carb ticklers. Blurdy yanks.

The "needs to be hot before it'll idle" is common on big singles.As is the "prick to start when luke warm" thing.

The auto decomp isn't anything clever, it just lifts the exhaust valve a bit at TDC compression stroke (a bit before strcitly) , when the kick starter is being used.

Motu
12th December 2006, 12:49
I hate auto decomps,it means you can't find compression.I like to bring it up on comp,ease it over with the valve lifter,then lay into it.I have disconnected the auto decomp on my TLR200,for a small low compression single it gets a tight knot in the lever,but still it's not too hard to get over the top.

Those small Hoda singles have kickstart pinion problems - caused by young guys just fanging into that kicksart like it was a foot pump....smack,smack,smack.Never give a problem if you engage the gears and then give a good bodyweight kick.

I was watching a big multi rider spill at the Nationals in Mercer,they pick those WRf's and CRf's up and just slam into the kickstarter like it was to blame for them crashing,no due care and attention there.Just another cost of the high maintenance 4 stroke...but one that could be avoided.At the cost of winning the race I guess....

Henk
13th December 2006, 18:08
With the decomp when flooded thing, don't bother with a manual workaround. Just hold the throttle wide open and kcik through about 6-8 times.
With the choke leave it on until you are on the move. 50 - 100 meters sems enough to warm everything up properly, but then I'm a bit rough.

Oscar
14th December 2006, 17:41
Get to TDC.
Decomp to get just past TDC.
Annnndddd jump on the kickstart.
Stay away from the throttle!

If flooded then kick it over a few times with the decomp held in and full throttle.

+1
NordieBoy knows his shit...

XP@
14th December 2006, 23:27
As they all said... but also,
When you tart to feel things just ain't going your way take off your jacket and lid, cool down and then have another go.
If you let yourself get too hot it will just get harder and harder.

xwhatsit
14th December 2006, 23:29
As they all said... but also,
When you tart to feel things just ain't going your way take off your jacket and lid, cool down and then have another go.
If you let yourself get too hot it will just get harder and harder.

+1, Insightful.

What I generally took to doing was before I put on my helmet, jacket, gloves etc, I would try and start the bike. Then, I would still be relatively cool -- even if I had to bump start it lol. Then I could put on gear while the bike warmed up on idle.

NordieBoy
15th December 2006, 07:30
As they all said... but also,
When you tart to feel things just ain't going your way take off your jacket and lid, cool down and then have another go.
If you let yourself get too hot it will just get harder and harder.

Also.
Don't let the bike know you're in a hurry.

Mentioning a "Trip to the wreckers" and "Taking the bus home" sometimes works.

Bikes are dumb.
They fall for this reverse psychology shit.

zooter
19th February 2007, 15:02
........................and the short answer is yes. Blew my ankle to bits. Anybody want a low milage ttr600? Recommended for pie connissoirs, connisours, conissirs......big fat bastards wot like lots of pies.

Paul in NZ
19th February 2007, 16:24
Yeah I'll take it off your hands before anyone else gets hurt... No no - don't thank me - I'm kind like that...

I guess the old saying - Life - Bite off more than you can comfortably chew and chew like crazy isn't true?

Paul N

ps - hope you are not actually injured mate?

zooter
22nd February 2007, 00:08
$6000 drive away. Surgeon said I had a "nasty" fracture. Bits broken off all over the place. Not a bike for a 65kg piece of scrawn.

xwhatsit
23rd February 2007, 01:51
Ho fuck. Sorry to hear that! I didn't know that could happen -.-''... maybe I will fit the decompression cable on my bike after all. Bits blown off everywhere is not good -- I know that from my kneecap, it's just like having swarf in your bearings. Does it need operation or are they small enough to dissolve?

Gah, good luck mate. I'm glad the biker bug is incurable, or we might have lost you!

XP@
23rd February 2007, 22:57
Ho fuck. Sorry to hear that! I didn't know that could happen -.-''... maybe I will fit the decompression cable on my bike after all.

Hmm... the decomp cable broke on my cow. It was a bitch to start... then all of a sudden it got real easy to kick over. Down side was I was at the cold kiwi at the time, and could not find any spare valves.

zooter
24th February 2007, 20:06
Ho fuck. Sorry to hear that! I didn't know that could happen -.-''... maybe I will fit the decompression cable on my bike after all. Bits blown off everywhere is not good -- I know that from my kneecap, it's just like having swarf in your bearings. Does it need operation or are they small enough to dissolve?

Gah, good luck mate. I'm glad the biker bug is incurable, or we might have lost you!
I believe if you're doing it right then a decomp won't make a blind bit of difference to the kickback potential. If you've nudged it up and over the compression stroke then you've got 2 revs to do the business. If you're getting to the compression and failing to push through then a kickback is likely if the motor is in good shape.

I don't know about dissolve but they seem to think it's healing slowly. I think they might be skimping on me 'cause they needed a CAT scan to see all the damage when I did it but only xrayed it when I went back on Tuesday. It's mobile but can't take weight so I have to cart a stick around with me on the vespa.

Motu
24th February 2007, 20:43
I'm just choosing which hat to eat - my XT is now a 600 kickstart.Anyone got any tips on how to start a big single?

spookytooth
24th February 2007, 20:55
had a lot of big thumpers the auto decom is a pig idea .They dont like to start after a drop when hot and a manual decom is a godsent then,Anyways first one i had i had to put me gas hand on the bar to stop twisting it and flooding.takes bugger all to flood em :)

zooter
1st June 2007, 02:01
Going under the knife this afternoon to take out loose bits and grind off the bit that stuck on in the wrong place. I'm a good advert for private heath insurance. 3 and a half months from "it's supposed to be getting ok to walk on now isn't it?" to finally getting a cat scan to see why not and getting an op.

vifferman
1st June 2007, 07:51
Strictly speaking you don't need the decompresser anyway.
Indeed.
I was thinking, "What wussies! Decompressor?!?" My XBR500RS didn't have one, and it was a piece of piss to start: just fold up the right footpeg, use the kickstart to get the cylinder up near TDC, then jump on it.

Crisis management
1st June 2007, 08:18
But thats a honda Viffer........

Real bikes are different! :dodge:


Sorry to hear about the ankle Zooter, I hope the op clears it up for you. I can highly recomend DR650's, being a similarly scrawny bugger the electric start is my best mate.

Hope it heals well and soon!

zooter
5th June 2007, 20:09
Well they took a CHISEL to it but it's starting to feel better now and I can wiggle it round almost like the other side. Anyone want a ttr600?