OK - wat the f@ck is going on??

[mstriumph]

there have been a couple of useful threads lately that i have posted to ---- that have suddenly disappeared without a trace

the latest is the 'respect' thread started by Lou --- some of the comments were near the bone but they were real and they were honest and some of us were, through the thread, groping our way towards understanding, closure and acceptance both of the situation and of ourselves

now - i know this place is moderated - fair enuff
but CENSORED??

THAT makes me very uncomfortable
because i VALUE coming here

please, PLEASE don't turn this into another narrow, subjective, censorous POLITICAL little no-account mainstream forum

WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT

.................... and -
WE DESERVE BETTER!!!!!

[bluninja]

Through the sad news of the last few weeks I've been lurking, saying nothing in those threads as there was nothing for me to say. Whilst heart wrenching for those involved I don't see a need to start removing threads because it's too painful for some people to take just now.

I lost a very good friend this year on his motorbike. His partner announced the news with "Gary wasn't as skillful at bouncing off tractors as you". Nobody on Kiwibiker knew him; and the posts about stupid stunts and offs and speed limits were there every day. I doubt that any would have been moderated or pulled if I had complained.

How will the moderators know when 'certain' threads can be posted again without cause of emotional harm and pain? What if you get it wrong and they suddenly have all their grief rekindled.

There may have been good reason to pull the posts, but to just remove the threads with no explanation (whether we agree or not) is not good. I hope the events of the last few weeks aren't repeated and that this becomes a non-issue. However people die everyday and some of them will be friends and family, and some of them will be on motorbikes when it happens. As Kiwibiker gets bigger and bigger the chances are you will know more and more of the fallen in NZ.

I believe some people have expressed the view that we are diminished by the loss of each person that dies. I'd rather consider that I am enriched by every person that I've been privileged to meet. Even when they are gone, their memories still enrich us.

[Joni]

MS it was pulled by one of the Mods due to the request of one of the deceased riders partners...
The Mods are currently discussing what should be done...

[Motu]

Why are they coming here reading threads that will upset them? Picking at scars? They should be warned they might read something they don't like.Read the positive tribute threads sure....buy surely if they see a thread heading the wrong way they should stop.Seems pretty basic to me.Too much hand holding going on over this whole thing.

[chanceyy]

Why are they coming here reading threads that will upset them? Picking at scars? They should be warned they might read something they don't like.Read the positive tribute threads sure....buy surely if they see a thread heading the wrong way they should stop.Seems pretty basic to me.Too much hand holding going on over this whole thing.

Its not about holding hands Motu, as said on the previous thread the emotions are still raw, there are still alot of ppl who are grieving .. along with the partners/familys & close freinds on here. I sent a pm to a Kber with my thoughts rather than posting.

Even though I agreed with comments that had been posted I still cringed at the thought that one of their partners may have read it ..

@ both of the funerals I attended last week both family members advised they were logging on as they got comfort from reading the posts etc, & did not take part in the KB side of life but with the overwhelming support that they recieved have been logging in ..

with the certain posts being only a week after the unfortunate incidents, even though they are brutal words & may make one or two pull their heads in (which i doubt) a lil sensitivity would not have gone amiss

[Kendog]

MS it was pulled by one of the Mods due to the request of one of the deceased riders partners...
The Mods are currently discussing what should be done...

Did they request the thread be removed?

[Shaun]

I to feel it is wrong to have this thread on hold

Some things that have been said are hard and true

I trully believe that some of things being said are going to help keep riders alive

We have a responsibillity to each other to try and protect each other

Closing our eyes will fix nothing

[Joni]

Did they request the thread be removed?Yes!

I have received a few pms etc about this: the request was not made to me, and I did not action it.... so all I can say is it is being worked on as we speak.

[ceebie13]

Why are they coming here reading threads that will upset them? Picking at scars? They should be warned they might read something they don't like. Read the positive tribute threads sure....buy surely if they see a thread heading the wrong way they should stop.Seems pretty basic to me.Too much hand holding going on over this whole thing.


Indeed. It's a bit like people who live near airports and then complain.
Or perhaps those who complain about TV programming. With the greatest and sincerest respect to anyone reading this, I agree with Motu. Your TV, your computer or whatever has either a channel switch button or an off switch. All I can do is suggest that you use it. I made further comments here:
www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=856446#post856446

[Squeak the Rat]

This place is often likened to a bikers pub. Such talk as was in those threads is the kind of stuff that would go on in such a pub by friends and acquantances and other hangers-on, out of ear shot of close family. And such talk can be very useful for the grieving process for those wanting to be involved in it.

Trouble is this really isn't a pub and quiet conversations in the corner can't happen because every one can listen in. We're not talking about some canadian backpackers who walked into the boozer, these are the family of friends.

As one who has been making an effort to keep out of the threads and observe, all I want to say is that Quasi's post had a huge impact on me personally, more so than anything else that's been said in the last three weeks.

Tough call and I wouldn't want to have to make it, but I will respect the decision......

[MSTRS]

This reminds me of an old McPhail and Gadsby skit....
2 old RSA codgers are discussing (we'll call him Bill), saying how much of a prick he was, couldn't be relied upon for anything, would freeze under fire or desert his mates, ate more than his share of the rations so the rest went hungry etc....
Someone else comes into the room and announces that Bill has just died.
Now the conversation goes....
Shame about old Bill. Wonderful chap, salt of the earth, good man in a tight spot etc.....
Pulling this thread is bullshit. I appreciate that 'some' posts were un-necessary and in no way constructive, and those were rightly put in PD. But the rest, even if painfully honest, stand on their own merits. No-one should die like our friends did. If being truthful about what happened helps others to survive, then that should be the most important consideration.
I am not downplaying the feelings of the families, but I doubt that any of them want others to join them in personal bereavement.

[Maha]

Should just title the threads HERPES dosent matter how many times they get pulled/censored/cleaned out, they just keep coming back...:done:

[Big Dave]

I would be frustrated if I made contributions and they were nuked.
But if it was up to me I would leave it deleted.
There are some things that are better said privately. This was many of them.

[dawnrazor]

how was I able to post in the "respect" thread at 11am today and now its gone!!!!!!!!!!!

In fact Joni replied to my post

was the thread reinstated and then pulled again????????

[Ixion]

Yes. It's been pulled again.

[MSTRS]

Oh FFS...this is turning into a farce!!! WTF happened this time?

[Blackbird]

Oh FFS...this is turning into a farce!!! WTF happened this time?

Dunno, I was in the middle of responding to a very good post by Terbang and when I went to post it, it said that I didn't have rights. The moderators are a bit silent on this one!

[Pumba]

Good im glad im not the only one it happened to then. All I was trying to do was catch up on all the stuff I missed before it was pulled the first time

[MSTRS]

Dunno, I was in the middle of responding to a very good post by Terbang and when I went to post it, it said that I didn't have rights. The moderators are a bit silent on this one!

It IS/WAS ?? a very good post. And mine after it weren't too shabby either (even if I say it myself). F'ken ridiculous pulling it again. It's not a remembrance thread nor is it a blame thread. People want to know what happened and what can each of us avoid doing/change what we have been doing, so that it never happens again.
Would we want our 3 friend's deaths to be pointless?

[The Stranger]

I would be frustrated if I made contributions and they were nuked.
But if it was up to me I would leave it deleted.
There are some things that are better said privately. This was many of them.

I'm with Big Dave and with the families of the deceased on this.

[SPman]

I tend to go with the aviation side of things here - things are better talked about in the open, with no bullshit, to clear the air, hopefully learn and move on.
No blame, finger pointing, gory details, etc - just try and point some people in a better direction until next time.

Yes - it was pulled again, for a reason I think is, or should not be relevant!

[dawnrazor]

4,500+ views that thread had.......can't take that away

[mstriumph]

OK -
the thread in question contained posts of varying kinds - some of which were extremely thoughtful, contemplative and helpful and some of which were ...well .... of the pointless and drivelly variety

Granted some posts could/ indeed have upset some people - and that's heartless and unkind; But some have given others, myself included, a much-needed 'wake up' call that could possibly drastically change our way of thinking and keep us alive

accidental dying is a horrible, hurtful, stupid waste ...... the only tiny redeeming feature of it being that others may learn from it and avoid doing likewise - i think i'm trying to say that some family and friends may actually be glad that some potential good might have come out of the thread in question

so how about a compromise here? to avoid chucking the baby out with the bathwater?

couldn't some thoughtful moderator go through the thread and delete the pointlessly drivelly bits ......... then re-instate the thread with the warning that any further such posts will be automatically deleted from the thread without further notice?

Goes without saying discuss it with the person who complained first - she may not have seen past the drivel to some of the useful things happening in the thread - not suprising considering - foul & awful position she's in.

[Paul in NZ]

Honesty with all its attendant hurts is not worth much in the modern age.

I suppose it's better we put it all behind us and just pretend it never happened so that we can pretend to be shocked and sad the next time and if we are lucky - it probably won't be someone we don't know.

I feel old and tired out by this so I'm giving up on it before I say what I feel and offend anyone.

[Joni]

I'm giving up on it before I say what I feel and offend anyone.Thats exaclty how I feel.... however I think you and I both know we are coming from slightly different places.

Oh and edit: For the people questioning the double pulling of the thread, just take it that there are a few things you are not aware of...

[Paul in NZ]

Thats exaclty how I feel.... however I think you and I both know we are coming from slightly different places.

Oh and edit: For the people questioning the double pulling of the thread, just take it that there are a few things you are not aware of...

Joni - I trust your taste 100% and for me the matter is closed - I've run out of puff anyway. More than that, I wish no more grief on your head.

AND - For the record - it has been my experience in life that there is ALWAYS a lot of stuff going on I'm not aware of... :innocent: Thankfully....

[mstriumph]

your call, Joni
..
baby
bathwater
:done:

[Quasievil]

Oh and edit: For the people questioning the double pulling of the thread, just take it that there are a few things you are not aware of...

I think Im aware of what it is you are refering to and if Im right (im sure I am) I cannot see one bit of difference that the thread in question would make, its all in the police reports and will come out towards interested parties, very shortly.
Taking away that thread is taking away KB members opportunity to discuss / learn and greive as a community that was directly involved.

[dawnrazor]

OK -
the thread in question contained posts of varying kinds - some of which were extremely thoughtful, contemplative and helpful and some of which were ...well .... of the pointless and drivelly variety

Granted some posts could/ indeed have upset some people - and that's heartless and unkind; But some have given others, myself included, a much-needed 'wake up' call that could possibly drastically change our way of thinking and keep us alive

accidental dying is a horrible, hurtful, stupid waste ...... the only tiny redeeming feature of it being that others may learn from it and avoid doing likewise - i think i'm trying to say that some family and friends may actually be glad that some potential good might have come out of the thread in question

so how about a compromise here? to avoid chucking the baby out with the bathwater?

couldn't some thoughtful moderator go through the thread and delete the pointlessly drivelly bits ......... then re-instate the thread with the warning that any further such posts will be automatically deleted from the thread without further notice?

Goes without saying discuss it with the person who complained first - she may not have seen past the drivel to some of the useful things happening in the thread - not suprising considering - foul & awful position she's in.

With respect to the several posts I made in that thread.....I put alot of thought, effort and hopefully intelligence into them (not my usual style - but I am a paradox wrapped in an enigma me). From the amount of green rep I got for them, alot of other folk thought so as well it would appear....I do agree with the editorial of the relevent parts (as I'd suspect what Joni is referring to, of events in the background that we are not aware of, is possibly of a legal nature??? just a guess).

Whats going to happen now.....this thread will be pulled because its referring to that thread? Are we allowed to mention anything about the events of the last 10 days at all?

I accussed the Mods of sending out mixed messages earlier about their reactions to the 'reflect' thread, I was told they are all inividuals and not 'borg' (who ever he is :dodge: ). But that wasn't my point...I just expected a united front (be it for whatever reason), the fact you all see this differently compounds the debate......surely the Mods are there to guide as well as censor?

anyway, thats all I guess - as someone said earlier there is no whispering on a forum like this.....

[Joni]

Huh... the borg... from Star Trek... (the borg, short for cyborg) working off one data base with no individual thoughts, just the collective....

OK sci-fi lesson over :sunny:

[Ixion]

Sigh. I've given up. Just extend the KB clothing range. Add black armbands. And lay in a good stock, they'll be needed before this summer's over.

But that's OK, just so long as no-one talks about it, it doesn't really happen , right?

[yungatart]

Wise words from Ixion, take heed people, none of us are invincible.

[dawnrazor]

I know who the borg are thank you very much....jeez, I wasn't suggesting or expecting you all to be ruled by a common mind alla the collective......but on this one subject I thought that a united front would have been productive even if some did agree and others didn't at least the message is clear.....where as the situation we have now is some mods think its a good thing to discuss this some are on the fence and some think its a bad thing.....result no one knows if your allowed to shit or get off the pot

[dawnrazor]

Sigh. I've given up. Just extend the KB clothing range. Add black armbands. And lay in a good stock, they'll be needed before this summer's over.

But that's OK, just so long as no-one talks about it, it doesn't really happen , right?


Ixions illustrates my point to a T.....thank you sir

[riffer]

Okay, I've bit my tongue for a while on this one but this is getting a bit silly ...

If I stuffed up and had a fatal, I'd like to think others could learn from my mistakes.

Any discussion must help. We have the report post option for a reason. Let people post. If the mods get enough complaints then pull the post. But not the thread. :mellow:

[Joni]

I reckon a lot of you are missing "the other sides" arguement... no one is saying dont discuss it...

What is being asked for is a little more time, the timing is felt not to be right... however the message, the lessons that can be learned are VITAL...

People like me (i.e the softies) are just looking it from the people grievings point of view and trying to respect that too...

[dawnrazor]

Does that mean the thread will be reinstated??????

PS Joni I realise you and others are grieving and I had made peace with that...but then the thread was pulled just when it had seemed to start being productive and sensitive to everyones wishes......I guess what I'm saying is, if it was Quasi's rather frank recount that caused the fuss, why has it taken until today to pull the thread? He posted that on sunday night.......

[Joni]

Does that mean the thread will be reinstated?????? Not right now no - it was pulled for a reason....

[MSTRS]

I reckon a lot of you are missing "the other sides" arguement... no one is saying dont discuss it...

What is being asked for is a little more time, the timing is felt not to be right... however the message, the lessons that can be learned are VITAL...

People like me (i.e the softies) are just looking it from the people grievings point of view and trying to respect that too...

The timing is never right. We (well an awful lot of us) need to 'discuss' this when events are still very fresh. And by pulling the thread, it is saying "You are not to discuss it".

[Joni]

Then so be it MSTRS....

Im tired, we are going around in circles... the decision has been made.

and by the way, my comments were on what a few of us feel about the discussion, NOT on why the thread was pulled...

[Deano]

I don't see anything similar being discussed in the Sportsbike forum ?

I didn't look that hard but......

[onearmedbandit]

Doesn't mean much Deano, 6000 members here compared to maybe 300. And of those 300 most would frequent here as well so no need for them to start a discussion on it there.

[The Stranger]

Sigh. I've given up. Just extend the KB clothing range. Add black armbands. And lay in a good stock, they'll be needed before this summer's over.

But that's OK, just so long as no-one talks about it, it doesn't really happen , right?

Ah screw it.

What was being talked about in those threads was (mostly) bullshit.
There was very little detail about the accidents. Conjecture and supposition (at least until I gave up looking) was all that was there.
What good is that? None at all.

Now as SP Man says, sure an aircraft accident style investigation. Great go for it. But the (mostly) crap that was posted was very short on specifics and long on guess and opinion.

Publish the report (keep it accurate) and that will tell me all I need to know. We (well me anyway) are all quite capable of drawing our own conclusions thank you. I really don't need any thread on KB to tell me what to do or not do on the road. If the rest of you do, I pity you, how did you get this far in life without KB's sage wisdom?

In the absence of a substantive report from which some learning can begin, why put the families through ANY unnecessary pain or discomfort?

So stop being busy bodies, go take a chill pill and trust SpankMe and the rest of the Mods to do their job in the best interests of all involved, as they always have, and I am sure always will.

[Deano]

Doesn't mean much Deano, 6000 members here compared to maybe 300. And of those 300 most would frequent here as well so no need for them to start a discussion on it there.

Yes but if people don't like the censorship/moderation on KB then why not go to Sportbike to discuss - I doubt Quasi would block the posts.

Instead of bagging KB moderators, there is an alternative.

[onearmedbandit]

Yes but if people don't like the censorship/moderation on KB then why not go to Sportbike to discuss - I doubt Quasi would block the posts.

Instead of bagging KB moderators, there is an alternative.

True mate, wasn't looking at it from that angle.

[SPman]

Most of us don't actually care about the specific details of the individual incidents!

Its the attitudes and perspectives that can lead to these happening that was being discussed!

The thread was pulled for other reasons, second time around - reasons which some mods do not agree with!

[Motu]

I pity you, how did you get this far in life without KB's sage wisdom?

trust Spank Me and the rest of the Mods .

Hell - oh? What do you think this site is for? Posting up new roads to race on? I do hope it's about sage wisdom,everyone learning from each other.....the colective.Some give more advice than recieve,but even an old fart like me can learn from younger riders.....I just don't admit it.I'm sure anyone who has been on here for more than 2 weeks has picked up a few bits of sage wisdom along the way.....I think you may be in more need of the pity.

And I don't put my thought processes into the hands of spankMe and the mods,thank you very much - I can think my own thoughts without their help.

[yungatart]

Yes but if people don't like the censorship/moderation on KB then why not go to Sportbike to discuss - I doubt Quasi would block the posts.

Instead of bagging KB moderators, there is an alternative.

Not all of us ride sports bikes...

[Deano]

True mate, wasn't looking at it from that angle.

Sorry for my deliberate vagueness - I've been silent on several issues lately because I tend to get riled up easily.

[Deano]

Not all of us ride sports bikes...

There are some on KB that don't even have a bike. Doesn't stop them logging on and putting in their 2 cents.

[MSTRS]

What was being talked about in those threads was (mostly) bullshit.


I don't think so. Thread was not about any of the accidents other than as a catalyst to make us think about how we (may) ride on the road. Quasi posted the hard facts of the one he had close involvement with ..and it was disturbing. No intent to offend or upset anyone. Only to ensure readers had the right reason for 'reflecting'. But no-one was/is forced to read or contribute.

[mstriumph]

Ah screw it.

What was being talked about in those threads was (mostly) bullshit.
There was very little detail about the accidents. Conjecture and supposition (at least until I gave up looking) was all that was there.
What good is that? None at all. ........ you missed the point


Now as SP Man says, sure an aircraft accident style investigation. Great go for it. But the (mostly) crap that was posted was very short on specifics and long on guess and opinion. ........ you missed the point - again


In the absence of a substantive report from which some learning can begin, why put the families through ANY unnecessary pain or discomfort?. ........ and again - with a twist


Publish the report (keep it accurate) and that will tell me all I need to know. .... see below


We (well me anyway) are all quite capable of drawing our own conclusions thank you. I really don't need any thread on KB to tell me what to do or not do on the road. If the rest of you do, I pity you, how did you get this far in life without KB's sage wisdom? .....- you may not have intended this the way it sounds, but it SOUNDS pretty arrogant

KB is a community where people, having the opportunity to learn from the experience of others, may manage to avoid some of the pitfalls they would otherwise have fallen into.

Personally i save MY pity for those, like you, who think they know it all already........ :yes:


So stop being busy bodies, when put alongside your "Publish the report (keep it accurate) and that will tell me all I need to know." speach it sounds as though YOU are the busy body wanting all the details --- from what i read, the rest of us don't because we have NO wish to cause any unnecessary upset


go take a chill pill and trust SpankMe and the rest of the Mods to do their job in the best interests of all involved, as they always have, and I am sure always will. ..... as you said "We ... are all quite capable of drawing our own conclusions thank you" :innocent:

[WINJA]

Its Sad But Life Goes On , 2000 Or So Of Us On Kiwi Biker Are Still Alive , If My Mum Died I Wouldnt Go Looking For Mothers Day Presents So Why Log On Here If Its Gonna Upset You , Might Be Time For Some People To Log Off For Good

[Riff Raff]

I'm seeing first hand the upset that thread caused to the loved ones of those who've died. People are raving on about freedom of speech, but not stopping to think about the consequences of what they're saying. They're hurting the people who are hurting the most. And so you say, don't read the thread if it will upset you. Well would you stand back and let people slander your loved one that you've only just laid to rest? Would you?

People go on about learning from others mistakes. Sure, that's good. But if the fact that 3 of our KB members died on the roads is not enough to make you re-evaluate your riding, then nothing is.

If you want to discuss it then at least have the decency to wait until the accident investigation report is out so you have all the facts before you.

[Joni]

:) I could not and have not put it better myself hun...

[slowpoke]

Seems a golden opportunity has gone begging.

We can't change what has happened but we CAN change what is going to happen.

We can raise peoples awareness starting right NOW and possibly save someones life...or we could put it off, probably NEVER talk about it, and more than likely let more of our brightest young people be killed.

These events are an incredible waste, and to think people don't want to stop it happening RIGHT NOW is just....just....doing my head in.......

Righto, back to the cake recipes and how to mount an L-plate on my GN250. Gee, I feel heaps better already.....yeah right.

[Ixion]

Those suggesting that the matter is one of an academic insistence on 'freedom of speech", or of prurient curiosity do the posters in the original thread an injustice

In the lengthy (and robust) argument that took place behind the scenes about the original thread, I posted my reasons. For good or ill, that original thread will never see the light of day again. But , like Pilate, before sending for a bowl and water , I want my position to go on public record.

So here is a slightly edited version of it. I don't know how long it will remain (since the reaosns for deleting the original thread could also be applied to delting this post), so i have also posted it to my livejournal http://jedidiahstott.livejournal.com/



I think the thread should go back up . But not as a matter of free speech or satisfaction of curiosity

I have for a long time been concerned about the de facto KB attitude of sweeping under the carpet any suggestion that playing silly buggers on powerful motorcycles can lead to people getting hurt or killed. Whilst condoning the posts boasting of "another bin", treating crashing as a joke, boasting of 200kph+ runners from the police, the races on the public road that pass for KB group rides, etc etc.

I kept my mouth shut (mostly) because I thought maybe it was just me being a Nana, and those engaging in such antics perhaps possessed skill and capability beyond my comprehension.

Now, this tragedy has emboldened others, whom none could call nanaish or unskilled, to come forward and condemn irresponsible behaviour.When they have had the courage to speak out it would be craven and pusillanimous for me to stay silent. That is not to say or imply that the circumstances of those tragedies were irresponsible. I do not know the details of what happened there, I do not want to know, or need to know. I do know that three people, very experienced riders died. That should be a clarion call for ALL of us to take a good hard look at ourselves , and each other.

To censor this (and make no mistake about it, that is what is happening) and carry on with the head in sand philosophy is , I consider, grossly irresponsible , almost criminally irresponsible.

If the site was one only for experienced riders or racers, it might be argued (I think falsely) that riders are responsible for their own safety . But that is not the case (and even if it were I think the argument a false one). We have many young and novice riders. We have a responsibility to them and to reinforce their innate notion of personal invulnerability with a policy that ensures that the harsh realities of stupidity on the road are kept a close hidden secret is abrogating that responsibility.

I see no effective difference between the attitude of those who seek to maintain the pretence that the consequences of stupidity on the roads should never be mentioned , let alone condemned, and the parents of that drunken youth who declared that they would continue to supply him with alcohol, knowing he would drive drunk. In both cases those who should know better are condoning what should be condemned.

I think "it's not the right time and place" is just an evasion. Those resorting to it do so because they know full well there is never going to be a *right* time or place. It is an evasion, to justify maintaining the head in sand, sweep it under the carpet, keep it secret policy.

This is a discussion that KB NEEDS to have . I am sorry if it should be harsh for some. But the consequences of not having it are harsher still. Better hurt feelings than hurt bodies.



Sadly, that needful discussioon will never take place.

[Quasievil]

Yes but if people don't like the censorship/moderation on KB then why not go to Sportbike to discuss - I doubt Quasi would block the posts.

Instead of bagging KB moderators, there is an alternative.

I will be posting a letter on SB, not yet but soon. It will recount my day precisely, it will have pictures (aftermath style)and comments from others that where there, the intention is to serve a reminder to others and to save lives.
Daryl and Bruces Death wont be in vain, and as they are my dearest of mates I reckon they would appreciate it, however for now Im not ready nor is anyone else. But it will be posted and I will probably close the thread imediately so it doesnt get away on us.

In the meantime I think the closure of the thread in question is utter crap, nothing was on there that shouldnt be, the most debatable comment made was possibly by me, which refered to "the boys racing on the road" and why would that be a problem, everyone here knows they do, all the families know they did, everyone on the ride knows they where, thats a fact which was real is real and will stay real, nothing on KB will change that fact, not even the police report...............so as hard as it is to swallow , swallow it, learn from it and accept it, and talk about it and save the next guy or girl from killing themselves in the pursuit of speed on the public road

[mstriumph]

Those suggesting that the matter is one of an academic insistence on 'freedom of speech", or of prurient curiosity do the posters in the original thread an injustice................

thank you for that

it saddens me that, as you say, this is a "needful discussion that will never take place".

[Hitcher]

We're being way too sensitive, overly cautious and protective here and risk being unnecessarily influenced by opinions that probably have no basis in fact. For a site that has taken pride in full and frank discussion of issues - many of which also have no basis in fact - this is a sad day.

[chanceyy]

In the meantime I think the closure of the thread in question is utter crap, nothing was on there that shouldnt be, the most debatable comment made was possibly by me, which refered to "the boys racing on the road" and why would that be a problem, everyone here knows they do, all the families know they did, everyone on the ride knows they where, thats a fact which was real is real and will stay real, nothing on KB will change that fact, not even the police report...............so as hard as it is to swallow , swallow it, learn from it and accept it, and talk about it and save the next guy or girl from killing themselves in the pursuit of speed on the public road

Quasi

3 top guys lost their lives .. but not all three were racing, or acting irresponsibly, I know what you witnessed was horrific & like i have said to you if it makes someone think twice & act a bit more sensibly then great .. however the general tone of the thread & linking the three deaths together made it seem as if all three were racing ... when we know that one wasn't & a combination of small events lead to his untimely death ..

that is what makes me feel uncomfortable with the nature of the threads .. linking all three to the same behaviours etc ..

riff raff - bling .. extremely well said .. I will now bow out .. cause i prob have not made my point as clear as i would like ..

[enigma51]

holy crap there is a bunch moaning wankers on this site (sorry if I offend any one) Get over it guys. So what if it got pulled. There where people who was not happy about what was said in the thread so let it be. I think we have had enough sad shit for a month or two so stop with the bitching. Even though we want to hear all sides of the story (no matter how ill informed they are) there will be a time for just have some respect to the loved once and keep it over a beer for know.

I remeber when old fart died everyone had there opinions and even though some of them where said in a "friendly" way they still hurt at the time. Cause what ever people say will go through your mind "did it happen like that what was he thinking" blagh blagh blagh.

So just chill out for know please!

[Quasievil]

Quasi

3 top guys lost their lives .. but not all three were racing, or acting irresponsibly, I know what you witnessed was horrific & like i have said to you if it makes someone think twice & act a bit more sensibly then great .. however the general tone of the thread & linking the three deaths together made it seem as if all three were racing ... when we know that one wasn't & a combination of small events lead to his untimely death ..

that is what makes me feel uncomfortable with the nature of the threads .. linking all three to the same behaviours etc ..

riff raff - bling .. extremely well said .. I will now bow out .. cause i prob have not made my point as clear as i would like ..

I was only referring to my experience, I knew Uncle B but know nothing of the situation.
I will follow Riff Raffs lead, I to will bow out for a while, but I still think its bollocks we cant talk about it.

[MSTRS]

Sadly, that needful discussioon will never take place.

In that case KB will never be quite the same place it was yesterday. When the next rider goes because todays lesson was cancelled, will the mod/s take responsibility??

[Joni]

Oh FFS MSTRS...

That is not fair or rational...

[mstriumph]

............ Get over it guys. So what if it got pulled. .............. I think we have had enough sad shit for a month or two so stop with the bitching. .....................So just chill out for know please!

right *bitterly* mr "second is fastest loser" and "better to have ridden and crashed .............."

there's nothing to learn here ---- lets all move along

[MSTRS]

.. but not all three were racing..... linking all three to the same behaviours etc ..



Define 'racing'....all three were skilled, experienced, well respected riders/men who were going too fast for the conditions that prevailed at the time.

Oh FFS MSTRS...

That is not fair or rational...

Oh yes it is. Who else pulled the thread, but the mod/s.
What is not fair is if another dies because they were denied the opportunity to maybe learn something.

[yungatart]

I fully understand the pain that our three families are going through, I have been there too. They have my love, my sympathies and my prayers.
But, as a new rider, I have to say, if guys who had the skilll and experience that these riders had, can lose their lives on the roads, then what hope is there for me to stay safe?
I need to have this discussion, so I can learn from their mistakes, so that my family is spared the pain that their families are feeling. I am just one of many who feels this way.
I say this without meaning to cause more pain to those who have lost, just to protect those families who haven't (yet).
These guys are heroes to many on this site, who try to emulate them in their exploits, do we really want them to join their heroes because the true and frank discussion of that weekends events hurts.

[slowpoke]

holy crap there is a bunch moaning wankers on this site (sorry if I offend any one) Get over it guys. So what if it got pulled. There where people who was not happy about what was said in the thread so let it be. I think we have had enough sad shit for a month or two so stop with the bitching. Even though we want to hear all sides of the story (no matter how ill informed they are) there will be a time for just have some respect to the loved once and keep it over a beer for know.

I remeber when old fart died everyone had there opinions and even though some of them where said in a "friendly" way they still hurt at the time. Cause what ever people say will go through your mind "did it happen like that what was he thinking" blagh blagh blagh.

So just chill out for know please!


Sorry man, going by your sig(s), your serial crasher avatar, your bike choice, the description of your bike (I don't even wanna ask about your age), but you aren't really arguing from a position of strength on this subject.





(Big ups to me for admirable self control AND no swear words...alright, alright so what if it took four attempts?!)

[Scorpygirl]

Sorry man, going by your sig(s), your serial crasher avatar, your bike choice, the description of your bike (I don't even wanna ask about your age), but you aren't really arguing from a position of strength on this subject.





(Big ups to me for admirable self control AND no swear words...alright, alright so what if it took four attempts?!)

Excuse me here Slowpoke I really have to object. Old Fart that Enigma talked about (and who's sig Enigma has as part of his own) was a best friend ours - the best man at our wedding. Yes, he died on the Coro Loop too and people asked why. The Coroner's inquest was on the anniversary of his death. The result - a tragic death - cause unknown. He did nothing wrong - no speed, not on the wrong side etc - but he still lost his life too cause he left the bike and then skidded under a car and was killed instantly!!! We scattered his ashes on the 18th December 2005! I look at the photos of our wedding every day.

[Hitcher]

Let's please try to keep this discussion above personal attacks.

[Scorpygirl]

Let's please try to keep this discussion above personal attacks.

Sorry Hitcher. I apologise!!! Mods please delete my post!!! :shutup:

[enigma51]

Sorry man, going by your sig(s), your serial crasher avatar, your bike choice, the description of your bike (I don't even wanna ask about your age), but you aren't really arguing from a position of strength on this subject.





(Big ups to me for admirable self control AND no swear words...alright, alright so what if it took four attempts?!)

That right sherlock holmes!

Actualy can you please explain what the description of my bike and my avatar has to do with whole thing Yes maybe signature can lead you down the road of what do i know and there is the element of you dont know me so i will forgive you for that but if you can explain that would be nice

[jonbuoy]

Discussing any of it is like rubber necking on the motorway, stop being so morbid and nosey and leave it alone. Just my 2c.

[boomer]

I'm bathing the kids tonight and i leave the bathroom; my 2 year old daughter and 4 year old son happily playin in the bath.

Next thing i hear.. full tilt... "Get the fok out... get the fok out.... GET ... THE FOK.. OUT!!! from my boy..

So i have a little chuckle to myself and try and put a straight face on before facing the two of 'em..

I walk in and my daughter shouts "get the fok out"... tears are comin down my face at this point, any chance of keepin a straight face has gooooone.

Then.. my boy holds up the soap and says "get the fok out dad?!!'... it's then i realise they're saying frog, the plastic frog embedded in the soap.

stop fukin squibblin ffs

[enigma51]

I'm bathing the kids tonight and i leave the bathroom; my 2 year old daughter and 4 year old son happily playin in the bath.

Next thing i hear.. full tilt... "Get the fok out... get the fok out.... GET ... THE FOK.. OUT!!! from my boy..

So i have a little chuckle to myself and try and put a straight face on before facing the two of 'em..

I walk in and my daughter shouts "get the fok out"... tears are comin down my face at this point, any chance of keepin a straight face has gooooone.

Then.. my boy holds up the soap and says "get the fok out dad?!!'... it's then i realise they're saying frog, the plastic frog embedded in the soap.

stop fukin squibblin ffs

:rofl: :rofl:

[FatFurryGuy]

Why do the families and friends come here
Becasue they have to man, they live here as well.

I recently lost my pillion, in a cage - probably my fault. Deep down inside you never know what it is going to do to you, you learn to deal with the shit as it hits - and then it hits again, and again and again. You take each hit and try to move on.

But with the hits come the hugs, and the occasional smiles through the tears and the heartache - ah the memories! They come for the memories.

Why did the moderators pull it
Becasue they have to man, we all have to live here as well.
They have a decision to make and becasue they are the moderators, we will live with it! I don't envy them on this one.

[Deano]

Define 'racing'....all three were skilled, experienced, well respected riders/men who were going too fast for the conditions that prevailed at the time.


This is what is pissing me off John.

How do you know that was the case in Uncle B's crash ?

Were you there like Jimbo was, cause his version of events is somewhat different ?

[chanceyy]

This is what is pissing me off John.

How do you know that was the case in Uncle B's crash ?

Were you there like Jimbo was, cause his version of events is somewhat different ?


thank you deano .. ditto here

we get the picture from Quasi on the situation up north .. but uncle b circumstances were unusual, & jimbo was quite clear on what happened ..

Thats why sum of us are quite upset with the posts & I would only presume the families/close freinds feel the same way ..

ok definately bowing out now

[The Stranger]

When the next rider goes because todays lesson was cancelled, will the mod/s take responsibility??

Come on MSTRS, wake up and smell the bullshit.

I watched a rider (whom attended LB's funeral) on the way back from the funeral, on a wet road, windy conditions, failing light, overtake 2 bikes and a car around a corner with double yellow lines.

Shit the funeral and deaths of at least 2 of his friends didn't wake him up. All the gore adds on tv didn't stop him. Is he suddenly going stop because of a discussion on KB?

Don't try and hang that on the mods!

[MSTRS]

Fair comment. Got a bit heated last night. For most of us, this is a very emotional time/topic and if mine got away on me, then I apologise. I do, however, stand by the intent - being the utmost concern that we do every thing we can to not go through this again.
But you are right, some people will never get the message. Saw it myself on Sunday.

[scumdog]

Too many people live in this fantasy world where their thought system goes along the lines of "shit, really bad luck what happened to old XXX, shit like that won't happen to me", - it always happens to "somebody else":yes:

Although most of the time they don't even think of the "won't happen to me" bit.

And a lot of the time they don't think.

[Motu]

And then some people go completely the other way - wailing and self flagelation....kinda wierd if they never knew those concerned.

At my Aunies funeral a few years ago one of my cousins completely lost it...at her deathbed,at the funeral, and several times later.Ranting and raving about how it was everyone elses fault.It was very very distressing for everyone...it's just strange he never went off while I was there.He has now been completley cut off from the rest of the family - he wasn't at my mothers funeral,nor at his sister in laws a few months ago,but 2 of his boys were..and they were accepted by all.

Some people go completley off the top in grief,some like myself are pretty cold about it.

[mstriumph]

so here we all are
and some of us have learned from what's happened
and some of us haven't

that's life i guess :grouphug: stay safe out there peoples!

[slowpoke]

That right sherlock holmes!

Actualy can you please explain what the description of my bike and my avatar has to do with whole thing Yes maybe signature can lead you down the road of what do i know and there is the element of you dont know me so i will forgive you for that but if you can explain that would be nice

1) Kevin Schwantz was the guy who spent most of his racing life either on or over the limit, famous for crashing as much as winning, to paste him up as your avatar indicates hero worship.

2) Reinforced by the fact you own the latest hyperbike Suzuki, (for those "I live under a rock" types, Schwantz was/is a Suzuki God)

3) The bike is described as the "eighth wonder of the world" which has a certain bravado about it,

4) Under your user title you have "PIMP", which is an acronym for "Potentially Injured Male Pilot", more bravado

5) There seems to be a certain amount of "I don't want to talk about it" (denial) regarding these tragic events

You are absolutely right, I don't know you from Adam (that could be YOU in the avatar, with a striking resemblance to the Schwantz-meister, for all I know)....and therein lies the problem.....

...without knowing you, all we see is the picture you've painted for us and you've chosen to paint what some people would see as a stereotype. If you are under 25 then the picture is almost photographic in it's quality.

You also haven't done yourself any favours by calling people (who are grieving, just like you) "moaning wankers" which could cause people to further disregard your comments.

You sound quite fired up and will probably take this as a personal attack....which it is not. It's just an explanation of the impression you gave.

[enigma51]

1) Kevin Schwantz was the guy who spent most of his racing life either on or over the limit, famous for crashing as much as winning, to paste him up as your avatar indicates hero worship.

2) Reinforced by the fact you own the latest hyperbike Suzuki, (for those "I live under a rock" types, Schwantz was/is a Suzuki God)

3) The bike is described as the "eighth wonder of the world" which has a certain bravado about it,

4) Under your user title you have "PIMP", which is an acronym for "Potentially Injured Male Pilot", more bravado

5) There seems to be a certain amount of "I don't want to talk about it" (denial) regarding these tragic events

You are absolutely right, I don't know you from Adam (that could be YOU in the avatar, with a striking resemblance to the Schwantz-meister, for all I know)....and therein lies the problem.....

...without knowing you, all we see is the picture you've painted for us and you've chosen to paint what some people would see as a stereotype. If you are under 25 then the picture is almost photographic in it's quality.

You also haven't done yourself any favours by calling people (who are grieving, just like you) "moaning wankers" which could cause people to further disregard your comments.

You sound quite fired up and will probably take this as a personal attack....which it is not. It's just an explanation of the impression you gave.

Just to answer you back

1. Kevin is my all time hero and the fact he fell alot shows guts and determination to win a in racing! If you spend some time and look him up he also the one person who talks up safety and leaving for the track.
2. Please see point one. And just one more thing falling is part of racing and yes he did fall alot but he wanted to win on machine that was not as good as the competition so he was actualy the under dog.

3.If you mean I have pushed it to its limits im going to have to disapoint and say no cause I cant.
4. Or it can mean PIMP as in a female lady of the nights salesman :yes: !
5. Read my post again and you would see that no one saying dont talk about just not public for know I speak from experience its not nice to hear things not even a week after the incident when people is speculating or even when there is truth in it. Plus dont forget the cops and everyone needs to put case forward and if some one says something in here that can be of ill informed nature it can be bad for the investigation (if you get what im saying)

I did not get fired up though and i am not taking this personal either and you should not either What it does point out is that standing from the outside it is easy to judge how people should react and feel etc.

Maybe i should not have left my signature on or called people moaning wankers but that has happend that how I was feeling at the time and I still feel we are moaning about something stupid.


In any case Boys and girls be safe out there!

[Lou Girardin]

I've spoken to Spank about my thread and basically I don't give a shit about it being pulled. I DO give a shit about the steadily encroaching censorship on various issues.
As Motu said, this is a biker website that we voluntarily join, lurkers (from good or bad motivation) should not come into the equation when we are discussing matters among members. It's tantamount to listening to people talking about you, then getting upset when they bag you.

[MSTRS]

.... I DO give a shit about the steadily encroaching censorship on various issues.
As Motu said, this is a biker website that we voluntarily join, lurkers (from good or bad motivation) should not come into the equation when we are discussing matters among members. It's tantamount to listening to people talking about you, then getting upset when they bag you.

Correct. And at the risk of being considered a completely insensitive prick, it has to be said that none of us would consider going into the families' homes and telling them how to deal with their grief.

[Deano]

this is a biker website that we voluntarily join, lurkers (from good or bad motivation) should not come into the equation when we are discussing matters among members. It's tantamount to listening to people talking about you, then getting upset when they bag you.

But a verbal conversation is there and then gone, and generally private - these written words are here forever, and this is a public forum.

Would you continue to bag someone knowing they were listening, or talk about someone knowing that the person you told would then tell that person you bagged ?

End of the day, it is Spankme's site, and he appoints moderators to do his bidding.

If you don't like the rules, go play in another sandpit.

[terbang]

Whilst I understand the juggling act that the mods must undertake and respect their position. There was a thread "time to reflect" that seems to have dissapeared for some reason.
I was away for a couple of days and maybe it got out of hand and was deleted out of respect.
However I also want to find out how the bloody hell two riders, two extremely competent riders, managed to collide head on on a KB ride. The reason I want to know is because I intend to continue attending KB group rides and don't want to end up witnessing or being involved with a repeat of what has just happened. It wasn't an act of god, there will be a systemic process of attitudes and events that led us all here. Lets face it, something heavy has just happened, this site bears some responsibility for it and we don't want it to happen again. Open, frank and constructive discussion (not apportioning blame or finger pointing) is needed on this site to avoid a repeat and to possibly make some good for our future (the living KBers) out of such a tragic event. Sweeping reality under the mat makes no sense.

[beyond]

With the greatest of respect to all who are suffering and hurting and to the mods for the job they face, I'm with Terbang on this one too.

I have thought about getting my bike repaired and leaving it at Colemans to sell on behalf or not doing group rides at all again.

I love the friendship and catching up with new faces that I see on this site but if I continue on the group rides then I could be next without any understanding of what did take place. I only know that two experienced riders had a head on in somewhat dubious circumstances and if it happened to them, what hope have the rest of us got in similar circumstances?

I have never set out to cause trouble or stir for the hell of it. I try as hard as anything to be sensitive to all issues and all sides but other peoples lives are what we are talking about.

I have seen learner riders positng about how can we expect to be safe on the roads when two of our best riders go down?

I don't know the answers, I am not God but some of the newbies on this site need reassurance and I and others need to know what we can do or how we can be prepared to prevent this happening to us.

If group rides continue and I believe they will, as that is the nature of this site, then riders need to be prepared in case the same elements come together and we see a repeat. I couldn't live with myself if I had to endure what Quasi and others saw and what they have been through.

Words fail me....... :(


Whilst I understand the juggling act that the mods must undertake and respect their position. There was a thread "time to reflect" that seems to have dissapeared for some reason.
I was away for a couple of days and maybe it got out of hand and was deleted out of respect.
However I also want to find out how the bloody hell two riders, two extremely competent riders, managed to collide head on on a KB ride. The reason I want to know is because I intend to continue attending KB group rides and don't want to end up witnessing or being involved with a repeat of what has just happened. It wasn't an act of god, there will be a systemic process of attitudes and events that led us all here. Lets face it, something heavy has just happened, this site bears some responsibility for it and we don't want it to happen again. Open, frank and constructive discussion (not apportioning blame or finger pointing) is needed on this site to avoid a repeat and to possibly make some good for our future (the living KBers) out of such a tragic event. Sweeping reality under the mat makes no sense.

[Blackbird]

I love the friendship and catching up with new faces that I see on this site but if I continue on the group rides then I could be next without any understanding of what did take place. :(

I completely and utterly agree. When Kiwi Biker was first set up, I went on a group ride to Kawhia. I'm not going to labour the point but the standard of riding I saw that day scared me so badly that I have never gone on a group ride with strangers since then. I'm sure that most group rides are fine but I'm simply not prepared to put myself at risk or see others in a similar position. It's a heck of a dilemma because I love meeting other riders and I've made some very close friends through Kiwi Biker. However, I prefer to ride with a few people I know and trust with perhaps a couple of people I don't know which makes the situation more manageable.

This isn't a sledge of group rides, simply my personal view formed by a bad experience.

[scumdog]

As reversal of above comments; I was on the KB ride/get-together last weekend, we covered 100's of km together in various sized groups from 4 to over a dozen yet I neither saw nor heard of any risky riding by those attending.:yes:

(Sure, one or two 'opened 'er up' speed-wise but not at risk to any others.)

[Blackbird]

As reversal of above comments; I was on the KB ride/get-together last weekend, we covered 100's of km together in various sized groups from 4 to over a dozen yet I neither saw nor heard of any risky riding by those attending.:yes:

(Sure, one or two 'opened 'er up' speed-wise but not at risk to any others.)

Ahem...... scientifically invalid example Scummy if they knew your profession:innocent:

[scumdog]

Ahem...... scientifically invalid example Scummy if they knew your profession:innocent:

Oh they did all right - but I feel it was not an issue to the vast majority of them judging by comments and general behaviour - after all, 'some' pulled monos beside me before heading off 'fairly quickly':shutup: .

[Paul in NZ]

Folks - don't you think this thread has withered and died?

For what it's worth - Perhaps it is time to try to think outside the square. I've been thinking (dangerous as that is) that day tripping on sportsbikes is NOT the only use for a motorcycle. Perhaps it's the types of rides KB is organising that don't in fact suit most peoples style or ability that is part of the problem? I'm sorry but it is actually quite hard to ride well in a group at the legal limit let alone at the kinds of velocities some prefer. In my opinion if you want to do that - you should be heading off in ones and twos.

Perhaps some of us need to step up and find a gentler use that will allow some folks to get a few miles under their belts and discover a little more of this great country of ours. The odd overnighter could not hurt - trips to interesting venues etc are always great.

Just my opinion of course but one thing is certain, if we keep on repeating the actions of the past we will keep on producing the same results - and that opinion is not just based on my KB experience but on 35 years of riding.

Paul N

[The Stranger]

I have thought about getting my bike repaired and leaving it at Colemans to sell on behalf or not doing group rides at all again.

I love the friendship and catching up with new faces that I see on this site but if I continue on the group rides then I could be next without any understanding of what did take place. I only know that two experienced riders had a head on in somewhat dubious circumstances and if it happened to them, what hope have the rest of us got in similar circumstances?


Do you believe that the fact there was a group contributed to the accident? They could have been out for a fang together (sans the group) and the outcome could have been the same. How do you explain what happened? there is no explanation. The accident was a freak. Freaks happen, that is the way of the world. Had either one taken 2 seconds longer or shorter to turn around or rest under a tree, they probably would have had a laugh about the out come and no one would be questioning what happened or why.



I have never set out to cause trouble or stir for the hell of it. I try as hard as anything to be sensitive to all issues and all sides but other peoples lives are what we are talking about.

I have seen learner riders positng about how can we expect to be safe on the roads when two of our best riders go down?


Mate, we ride motorbikes. There is no safe. Best thing for learners is to recognise this, and this is a reminder. Look at you. Not sure if you remember me, but I have seen you ride several times I was impressed at the way that big 14 is handled in your hands, and you certainly don't come off as crazy or nothing. Yet you binned. We all do. Riding a motorcycle is not safe, period! There is no way to tell a learner that riding is safe, because it isn't.
Don't like it - sell your bike, but same thing happens in cages all the time too.



I don't know the answers, I am not God but some of the newbies on this site need reassurance and I and others need to know what we can do or how we can be prepared to prevent this happening to us.

If group rides continue and I believe they will, as that is the nature of this site, then riders need to be prepared in case the same elements come together and we see a repeat. I couldn't live with myself if I had to endure what Quasi and others saw and what they have been through.

Words fail me....... :(

Group rides will continue and in particular for the noobs to which you refer.
From the noob perspective they are important. They recieve the support and a degree of protection from the group. The noob can select a mentor and follow his/her lead, can ask for tips (they even get them when they don't ask if I see a problem) and see how it is done properly.

Conversely they can also see how not to ride properly. They can judge the quality of advice. You get heaps of advice on KB, but who do you listen to? everyone's advice is different. On a group ride they get to see who they wish to accept advice from and who you obviously don't listen to.

[Ixion]

...
There is no way to tell a learner that riding is safe, because it isn't.
...


Yet that is exactly the message that this site sends to novice riders. Not necessarily true learners , but those are at greater risk the rider with a few months or years of experience. Who knows all there is to know.

Let us consider a novice rider , who joins this site. Assume him to be a typical young lad, eager and without fear (a novice granny is another matter).

He hears the words and tales of more experienced riders. Riders on big powerful bikes, the riders he would like to emulate.

He hears, and sees , how they ride. Some ride very fast. They are respected and applauded for that (no problem so far). He sees that riding is regarded as a very competative affair . The main thing on a ride is to "give the learn" to the other guy. At the very least, to "keep up" . He learns that anyone who cannot is a "homo". The greatest condemnation that can be made of a rider is to be slow. He hears that safety is "ghey"

He observes also that many riders , in pursuance of "giving the learn" and "keeping up", and avoiding being a "homo" for being too slow, are prepared to ride in ways that are blatently unsafe.

But he is reassured that he need not worry. "You will crash. Everyone does. You're a homo if you don't." he is told. But, that's OK. Because crashing is just a joke (apart from damage to the bike). So long as you are wearing "the gear" you will not be hurt. And crashing is inevitable. Nothing to worry about. Not crashing because of excessive speed or dangerous riding, anyway. It's not even called a "crash" . It's just a "bin". The only crashes that are deprecated are those caused by cages.

And the administrative policies of the site wherever possible make sure that conflicting realities are kept hidden. Our novice will not be troubled, if at all possible, by any reports of riders actually being hurt .

Now, how do you think our bulletproof 10 foot tall young man is going to respond to this?

Personally, so long as I am not around (and I take care that I am not) I do not care how dangerously experienced riders ride. If they crash and are injured or killed, well , they took the risks. Presumably, they did so knowing what the consequences might be . So it seems rather hypocritical to be shocked or horrified when those consequences come home to roost.

I do care however that this site , quite deliberately, attempts to conceal from novice riders the fact that such deeds may have tragic consequences.

Condonation of dangerous riding by experienced riders is one thing. Allowing novices to think such riding is safe and admirable is quite another.

[scumdog]

Ixion has summed it up to a 'T'.

I hope a lot of you read that and digest it because it is so, so true!

[Quasievil]

Yet that is exactly the message that this site sends to novice riders. Not necessarily true learners , but those are at greater risk the rider with a few months or years of experience. Who knows all there is to know.

Let us consider a novice rider , who joins this site. Assume him to be a typical young lad, eager and without fear (a novice granny is another matter).

He hears the words and tales of more experienced riders. Riders on big powerful bikes, the riders he would like to emulate.

He hears, and sees , how they ride. Some ride very fast. They are respected and applauded for that (no problem so far). He sees that riding is regarded as a very competative affair . The main thing on a ride is to "give the learn" to the other guy. At the very least, to "keep up" . He learns that anyone who cannot is a "homo". The greatest condemnation that can be made of a rider is to be slow. He hears that safety is "ghey"

He observes also that many riders , in pursuance of "giving the learn" and "keeping up", and avoiding being a "homo" for being too slow, are prepared to ride in ways that are blatently unsafe.

But he is reassured that he need not worry. "You will crash. Everyone does. You're a homo if you don't." he is told. But, that's OK. Because crashing is just a joke (apart from damage to the bike). So long as you are wearing "the gear" you will not be hurt. And crashing is inevitable. Nothing to worry about. Not crashing because of excessive speed or dangerous riding, anyway. It's not even called a "crash" . It's just a "bin". The only crashes that are deprecated are those caused by cages.

And the administrative policies of the site wherever possible make sure that conflicting realities are kept hidden. Our novice will not be troubled, if at all possible, by any reports of riders actually being hurt .

Now, how do you think our bulletproof 10 foot tall young man is going to respond to this?

Personally, so long as I am not around (and I take care that I am not) I do not care how dangerously experienced riders ride. If they crash and are injured or killed, well , they took the risks. Presumably, they did so knowing what the consequences might be . So it seems rather hypocritical to be shocked or horrified when those consequences come home to roost.

I do care however that this site , quite deliberately, attempts to conceal from novice riders the fact that such deeds may have tragic consequences.

Condonation of dangerous riding by experienced riders is one thing. Allowing novices to think such riding is safe and admirable is quite another.

Couldnt Bling you on that one, but mate that was fucken brilliant !!!

[Blairos]

Ixion, what a great post!

Personally, I couldnt give a toss if people call me a homo for making sure I get to my destination in one piece, I'm still having fun, which is why I took up this hobby.
"Experienced" to me, means recounting the times you have got from "A" to "B" unscathed, not about how I am supposed to explain anything to my Insurance Company on how my bike ended up in a tree...

[Blondini]

What ixion said:yes: I joined the site to find a rider to take me pillion ,thats all end of story.Now couple of months down the track I have my own bike and I love it ,don't get me wrong,But I am being told"you ride a motorbike now you must go faster"CRICKEY I think motorbikes are seriously dangerous and the faster I go the more damage to me STUFF the bike sorry but seriously You can always get another bike...people well ....:no: I am told yes you will come off,Well scuse me But I do not want to fall off I want to be able to go at a speed that is legal but within my limits .At speedway they are taught to lay down their bikes in event of a "spill"If I am going to come off then this is something i would be keen on learning.Thats just my thoughts,there is more...always is:innocent: :shutup: And the people I am meeting ,they are the most decent bunch of caring people I have met and I have met a lot of people in my life.This site is addictive I am sure spank me has put something in there.:dodge: :love:

[Macktheknife]

But, as a new rider, I have to say, if guys who had the skilll and experience that these riders had, can lose their lives on the roads, then what hope is there for me to stay safe?
I need to have this discussion, so I can learn from their mistakes, so that my family is spared the pain that their families are feeling. I am just one of many who feels this way.
I say this without meaning to cause more pain to those who have lost, just to protect those families who haven't (yet).
These guys are heroes to many on this site, who try to emulate them in their exploits, do we really want them to join their heroes because the true and frank discussion of that weekends events hurts.

Hi YT,
Just a thought on your post, I will not discuss the situation of the fallen riders or comment on the mods decisions, but I will say this.
If you ride at your own pace, within your own limits, and take instruction and advice from those you trust, you will be doing all you reasonably can to improve your skill and protect yourself from the risks inherent in riding.
If we ignore the basic rules of riding we are likely to put ourselves in danger, focus on what you do know about keeping yourself safe on the road. The specifics of these accidents may shed some light on an issue that affects some or most of us BUT there is no gaurantee of that.
Respectfully
Mack

[riffer]

Yet again you summed it up perfectly Ixion.

[The Stranger]

Yet that is exactly the message that this site sends to novice riders. Not necessarily true learners , but those are at greater risk the rider with a few months or years of experience. Who knows all there is to know.

Let us consider a novice rider , who joins this site. Assume him to be a typical young lad, eager and without fear (a novice granny is another matter).

He hears the words and tales of more experienced riders. Riders on big powerful bikes, the riders he would like to emulate.

He hears, and sees , how they ride. Some ride very fast. They are respected and applauded for that (no problem so far). He sees that riding is regarded as a very competative affair . The main thing on a ride is to "give the learn" to the other guy. At the very least, to "keep up" . He learns that anyone who cannot is a "homo". The greatest condemnation that can be made of a rider is to be slow. He hears that safety is "ghey"

He observes also that many riders , in pursuance of "giving the learn" and "keeping up", and avoiding being a "homo" for being too slow, are prepared to ride in ways that are blatently unsafe.

But he is reassured that he need not worry. "You will crash. Everyone does. You're a homo if you don't." he is told. But, that's OK. Because crashing is just a joke (apart from damage to the bike). So long as you are wearing "the gear" you will not be hurt. And crashing is inevitable. Nothing to worry about. Not crashing because of excessive speed or dangerous riding, anyway. It's not even called a "crash" . It's just a "bin". The only crashes that are deprecated are those caused by cages.

And the administrative policies of the site wherever possible make sure that conflicting realities are kept hidden. Our novice will not be troubled, if at all possible, by any reports of riders actually being hurt .

Now, how do you think our bulletproof 10 foot tall young man is going to respond to this?

Personally, so long as I am not around (and I take care that I am not) I do not care how dangerously experienced riders ride. If they crash and are injured or killed, well , they took the risks. Presumably, they did so knowing what the consequences might be . So it seems rather hypocritical to be shocked or horrified when those consequences come home to roost.

I do care however that this site , quite deliberately, attempts to conceal from novice riders the fact that such deeds may have tragic consequences.

Condonation of dangerous riding by experienced riders is one thing. Allowing novices to think such riding is safe and admirable is quite another.

Whew, lots in there Ixion.

Where to start?
Well, ok, got to admit that on the face of what you say makes a lot of sense. But I will take issue with a few things.

For a start, the site. I really don't see how this site bares any responsibility. The members perhaps, but I feel the distinction should be drawn so as not to (mistakenly in my view) cast aspersion on those responsible for the provision and administration. The site also has VERY MANY positive aspects. Where else would people turn to for training and assistance with technical issues and maintenence etc, all of which this site (the members) does provide.

Sure the good (read fast and/or stunt etc) riders are held in high regard. They are inspirational, they can take your breath away as you watch in awe. They always will be. Is it that bad to want to emulate your heros? Heck I would love to be able to ride like some of these guys. Is it that bad to aspire to more than you are now? I believe it is not. That is what causes us to extend ourselves and our abilities. I believe that this is a positive.

Your description of "the learn" and binning and homos is in my view 2 things - bravado and the natural tendancy of humans to simply get up and get on with life. I binned on a country road. What do I do? give up riding? sulk? cry? No, put on a brave face (even though I know I fucked up) brush it off and get on with life - that is what you do, that is what humans should do. This is just the way of the world. If the younger ones are that disturbed by being labelled a homo, then there is little we can do about that. Shit if it were that big a deal no one would buy a Honda would they. Either way you are still going to have to deal with people whom haven't matured yet. This is a good place to grow some thicker skin.

Saying the attitudes or environment here is negative for those learning is like blaming television for violence. Get off, society was a lot more voilent, we managed to have plenty of wars and kill millions of humans before the advent of television.

Where do you get off blaming the site for "quite deliberately, attempts to conceal from novice riders the fact that such deeds may have tragic consequences."

The only reason we are even discussing this is because of this site. The only reason I could contribute to IL4 (a guy I have never seen or met) is because of this site. We know of Paul (motobob) because of this site. Cagers are killed and maimed daily and the effect is limited to a close group of friends and family, yet here we have aproximately 10-15% of the motorcycling public aware and hurting and thinking about the tragic events of the past month or so - the site has been immensley constructive in delivering the message you seek to deliver, more so than any gore advert on TV or any other medium could hope to be.

[The Stranger]

What ixion said:yes: I joined the site to find a rider to take me pillion ,thats all end of story.Now couple of months down the track I have my own bike and I love it ,don't get me wrong,But I am being told"you ride a motorbike now you must go faster"CRICKEY I think motorbikes are seriously dangerous and the faster I go the more damage to me STUFF the bike sorry but seriously You can always get another bike...people well ....:no: I am told yes you will come off,Well scuse me But I do not want to fall off I want to be able to go at a speed that is legal but within my limits .At speedway they are taught to lay down their bikes in event of a "spill"If I am going to come off then this is something i would be keen on learning.Thats just my thoughts,there is more...always is:innocent: :shutup: And the people I am meeting ,they are the most decent bunch of caring people I have met and I have met a lot of people in my life.This site is addictive I am sure spank me has put something in there.:dodge: :love:

So, who is telling you to go faster?
Name and shame!

As for laying your bike down - don't do it - why crash to avoid a crash? Stay on the bike to the bitter end. Emergency brake and or look for an out. You run out of options when you bail.

[McJim]

Most of the riders I've met and ridden with on KB have always said "Ride within your ability" and for the most part I do this. The only people I've heard mentioning speed being the be all and end all are generally much younger blokes generally on CBR250RR, RS250, NSR250, ZXR250 type bikes who often pipe up "WTF? Going fast is the POINT of a motorcycle"

I'm quite sedate on the road - I suspect I could be one of the Novice Grannys refered to by Ixion.

I don't feel there is an awful lot of pressure to go too fast but then if I do feel this pressure I'll peel off from the ride and do my own pace anyway.

[Ixion]

..

For a start, the site. I really don't see how this site bares any responsibility. The members perhaps, but I feel the distinction should be drawn so as not to (mistakenly in my view) cast aspersion on those responsible for the provision and administration.

Yes. I ought to clarify that . By "site" I mean the environment, not the infrastructure. Like saying "the school" when one really means the pupils, teachers, parents, not the school building or Department of Education.



The site also has VERY MANY positive aspects. Where else would people turn to for training and assistance with technical issues and maintenence etc, all of which this site (the members) does provide.


To be sure. That is why I spend so much time here :yes:



Sure the good (read fast and/or stunt etc) riders are held in high regard. They are inspirational, they can take your breath away as you watch in awe. They always will be. Is it that bad to want to emulate your heros?


I also have great admiration for such skills. And I can well understand people (young ones in particular) wanting to emulate them

And I think this an admirable thing ON THE TRACK But the public road is not the place for such things (I don't mean "fast" as in maybe breaking some speed limit , but "fast" as in dangerous, nothing left in reserve").

I see no problem with anyone aspiring to be a quick rider, on who gets rapidly over the ground. But the dynamics of riding on the road are quite different to the track. And I do have problems when people want to ride on the road as they would on a race track.

[crazybigal]

if your going to pull threads at least tell the person who started it not just pull it cos someone didnt like it! were will it all end? were is the line? who has too much power?


Yes!

I have received a few pms etc about this: the request was not made to me, and I did not action it.... so all I can say is it is being worked on as we speak.

[Joni]

if your going to pull threads at least tell the person who started it not just pull it cos someone didnt like it! were will it all end? were is the line? who has too much power?

Umm, if you read my post. I did not pull it...

And secondly I spoke with Lou the day the thread started and told him we would see how it goes...

So what is your point?

[crazybigal]

sorry i wasnt pointing the finger at you. and i never said you pulled it.
I had a thread pulled for no real reason, now i dont care but a simple pm sayn we have pulled your thread for such and such a reason would have been nice?


Umm, if you read my post. I did not pull it...

And secondly I spoke with Lou the day the thread started and told him we would see how it goes...

So what is your point?

[Joni]

sorry i wasnt pointing the finger at you. and i never said you pulled it.
I had a thread pulled for no real reason, now i dont care but a simple pm sayn we have pulled your thread for such and such a reason would have been nice? So post in the "got a problem" thread.... if you have an issue, it does not help bitching after the fact, find an answer when the problem arises...

[crazybigal]

isnt this tread about having threads pulled? or did i miss something?
so there is no protocol to follow? just pull em? or are mods ment to pm people? jast asking and dont bite my head off joni!


So post in the "got a problem" thread.... if you have an issue, it does not help bitching after the fact, find an answer when the problem arises...

[The Stranger]

And I think this an admirable thing ON THE TRACK But the public road is not the place for such things (I don't mean "fast" as in maybe breaking some speed limit , but "fast" as in dangerous, nothing left in reserve").

I see no problem with anyone aspiring to be a quick rider, on who gets rapidly over the ground. But the dynamics of riding on the road are quite different to the track. And I do have problems when people want to ride on the road as they would on a race track.

Cool. I am in complete agreement. Not that you need my agreement of course. But moving right along.

How do you deal with an errant rider?

Some of these guys are capable of withstanding immense pressure to slow down, ride within their capabilities and not endanger others. Many example of this abound on this site.

[Babelfish]

Hi, I've been watching the thread as a KB noob and would like to add another noobs take on the situation. TBH, its a bit enlightening to see all of the views and I can see the benefit of a little steam being let off current pressures accepted.

However, due to the thread being pulled that discussed the situations surrounding the recent crashes, added to the amount of attention a fatality recieves, I'm left to allow my imagination to reconstruct events. This is only natural, esp for a biker as the analysis and understanding of the miriad of variables applied to riding is an inherent characteristic of most riders I've met. The problem however is that imagination can be worse than reality, where actuals, tastefully presented, can provide some level of corrective thought and perhaps closure.

I'm not anti-mods for the action, and I can fully respect that people on this site may not like to read details of situations close to them, so please dont see this as a mod attack. I am simply expressing. Even for those that were not close to the guys, I believe emotion is still raised and closure is a key focus.

[crashe]

So, who is telling you to go faster?
Name and shame!

Well that would be ME......
On Julie's VERY first lesson...... getting her to go up from riding in first gear to second gear and me saying "You now have to go faster" cos after all Julie couldnt forever to continue to ride in first gear on the roads.
Then I had her going into third gear.... she took it up to fourth gear all on her own that day... and got to 40km per hour.

So if that is bad......... then have a go at me.

But she is now riding faster than 40km per hour as she has been out on Old North Road with me and out on the Mentor ride on Wednesday night.
Doing 70km which is within her license restrictions.
Julie is also doing the required speed limit around town now (50km)

If and when she is comfortable she will allow herself to ride faster.... and only then.


If others have told her to go faster.... then that has nought to do with me and helping Julie out there learning to ride.

[The Stranger]

Well that would be ME......
On Julie's VERY first lesson...... getting her to go up from riding in first gear to second gear and me saying "You now have to go faster" cos after all Julie couldnt forever to continue to ride in first gear on the roads.
Then I had her going into third gear.... she took it up to fourth gear all on her own that day... and got to 40km per hour.

So if that is bad......... then have a go at me.

But she is now riding faster than 40km per hour as she has been out on Old North Road with me and out on the Mentor ride on Wednesday night.
Doing 70km which is within her license restrictions.
Julie is also doing the required speed limit around town now (50km)

If and when she is comfortable she will allow herself to ride faster.... and only then.


If others have told her to go faster.... then that has nought to do with me and helping Julie out there learning to ride.

Crashe - you speed fiend you.
Julie, may I suggest that you consider attending a RRRS (http://www.rrrs.org.nz) course. The next one is on the 21st of January 07.
There is none in February as it clashes with the Battle of the Streets.

[crashe]

Crashe - you speed fiend you.
Julie, may I suggest that you consider attending a RRRS (http://www.rrrs.org.nz) course. The next one is on the 21st of January 07.
There is none in February as it clashes with the Battle of the Streets.

I have told Julie about this course and said to contact you as you would have all the details.... of when the next one is on...
I have done that course a few years back and do recommend it to everyone.

[SPman]

Its also a good course to do as a "refresher", from time to time, or, as some do, when you change bikes.

[Blondini]

So, who is telling you to go faster?
Name and shame!

As for laying your bike down - don't do it - why crash to avoid a crash? Stay on the bike to the bitter end. Emergency brake and or look for an out. You run out of options when you bail.

Twas just a thought:yes: I have no idea really...:love:And no I am not naming names.

[Maha]

As for laying your bike down - don't do it - why crash to avoid a crash? Stay on the bike to the bitter end.


Really Noel?....isnt it better to kick the bike away (which CaN be replaced) than hit a solid object?.
You will slide/roll whatever, on the road and stop way sooner than the bike (which CaN be replaced).
Seen it at Paeroa, rider goes down (for whatever reason) and the bike hits the bails and he picks it up seconds later, wont happen like that with us, granted, but staying alive is paramount to me and i will hopefully have the balls to kick the bike away (which CaN be replaced) if it ever happens to me.:done:

[Blondini]

Well that would be ME......
On Julie's VERY first lesson...... getting her to go up from riding in first gear to second gear and me saying "You now have to go faster" cos after all Julie couldnt forever to continue to ride in first gear on the roads.
Then I had her going into third gear.... she took it up to fourth gear all on her own that day... and got to 40km per hour.

So if that is bad......... then have a go at me.

But she is now riding faster than 40km per hour as she has been out on Old North Road with me and out on the Mentor ride on Wednesday night.
Doing 70km which is within her license restrictions.
Julie is also doing the required speed limit around town now (50km)

If and when she is comfortable she will allow herself to ride faster.... and only then.


If others have told her to go faster.... then that has nought to do with me and helping Julie out there learning to ride.

OI you can not take all that .I have heard it on several occasions :love:

[The Stranger]

Really Noel?....isnt it better to kick the bike away (which CaN be replaced) than hit a solid object?.
You will slide/roll whatever, on the road and stop way sooner than the bike (which CaN be replaced).
Seen it at Paeroa, rider goes down (for whatever reason) and the bike hits the bails and he picks it up seconds later, wont happen like that with us, granted, but staying alive is paramount to me and i will hopefully have the balls to kick the bike away (which CaN be replaced) if it ever happens to me.:done:

Would be a rare instance where you rolling or sliding on the ground will stop or slow quicker than your bike under brakes. Furthermore, you loose directional control. if you are sliding or rolling along the road you have no ability to control your circumtances. You can't avoid that Mack truck coming the other way, you can't select what or where you are going to impact. You loose the possibility of say a quick countersteer around an object after having scrubbed off sufficient speed.

Ok there are no absolutes and every case is going to be different and no doubt there is an exception or two. But I am talking general principals.

Can't really comment on the example you state at Paeroa, but it is possible they were in a corner and braking was either not possible or what sent him down, in which case you are going to part comapny with the bike anyway.

If you can, stand the bike up if necessary, and get on the brakes. modern brakes are well designed for stopping. Were leather or nylon better, I am sure they would use them.

[Ixion]

Difference betwene road and racetrack. On the track they don't have Mack trucks going the other way, and you can usually assume that whoever is behind you has some intelligence.

It's not hitting the ground I'd be worried about , it's what would hit me once I was down. Having said that , I'll take the ditch or bushes (or hedges) anytime in preference to hitting a vehicle.

[Motu]

However, due to the thread being pulled that discussed the situations surrounding the recent crashes, added to the amount of attention a fatality recieves, I'm left to allow my imagination to reconstruct events. The problem however is that imagination can be worse than reality, where actuals, tastefully presented, can provide some level of corrective thought and perhaps closure.



Being the cold hearted bastard that I am,I would of prefered to of seen a thread saying ''this is what happend...the cold hard facts'' No judgements,no guessing.Two seperate accidents,no mixing it all up.Say what happened and close the thread...discuss it somewhere else.All this drama because most people don't know what the hell happened,and those that do know (apart from Quasi) not fronting up.Just my view.

Laying it down? Definatly,done it plenty of times.Know when to bail...before you go down,or on the ground.A bike is a heavy sharp projectile,and when it's not got two bits of rubber on the ground it's pretty uncontrolable.I don't want to be where it reaches a stopping point,I don't want to be involved in it's crash....I'll take my chances on my own thank you.

[SPman]

Being the cold hearted bastard that I am,I would of prefered to of seen a thread saying ''this is what happend...the cold hard facts'' No judgements,no guessing.Two seperate accidents,no mixing it all up.Say what happened and close the thread...discuss it somewhere else.All this drama because most people don't know what the hell happened,and those that do know (apart from Quasi) not fronting up.Just my view.

And mine.


A bike is a heavy sharp projectile,and when it's not got two bits of rubber on the ground it's pretty uncontrolable.
Paul knows all about that one.

:shutup:

[terbang]

Beyond, CaN and Ixion I couldn't agree more with your comments however I only have one small issue.


The accident was a freak. Freaks happen, that is the way of the world.



I just can't accept accidents being a freak, except perhaps lying in bed and you get struck by lightning on a sunny day or similar. There is a number of reasons for any accident and some of them very human, human errors associated with attitude and behaviour. A lot of aviation research goes into preventing smoking holes in the ground and the basic concepts can relate to any sort of incident or accident.
Ponder this:


Accidents rarely result from a single failure or action. They result from a combination of things - for example, maintenance failure or crew failure. In other words, accidents result from a chain of events that make them difficult to analyze but also provide multiple opportunities to prevent them. Remove any link in the chain and the accident is avoided.



Here are also a few things that Aviation has identified in aircrews that have led to accidents. Though I don't wish to hang any of these on recent events but rather to educate on what is often the norm here...


Hazardous Attitudes
1. Antiauthority ("Don't tell me!") - Don't like anyone telling him/her what to do. Resentful of rules & regulations.
2. Impulsivity ("Do something - do it now!") - Need to do something, anything, quickly. Don't stop to think about better alternatives.

3. Invulnerability ("It won't happen to me.") - Accidents happen to other people, not to me. Therefore, I can take chances.

4. Macho ("I can do it.") - Always trying to prove themselves better than others. Take risks and try to impress others. Yes, women, too!

5. Resignation ("What's the use?") - I really can't make a difference. It's going to happen anyway, why bother? Leave actions to others.

I certainly don't want to see our past time regulated any more and definitely not this site. I am a firm believer that "education over legislation" is the answer. Something that this site does very well on a daily basis.

[Big Dog]

Just my 2c
If the mods were to accept liability for anything either posted or pulled on this site then this would first need to be a fully moderated paysite.

This is after all a public site that is owned by a private individual, and moderated by a collective of volunteers.

Some people on this site need to read posts before they reply to them.
Some people on this site need to read posts before they submit them.
Some people on this site, myself included, need to pull our heads in at times.

That is forum posting.
I agree that these events offer an opportunity to remind ourselves of the risks we take and accept resposibility for them, but there are plenty of things that have been posted this site over the years that are insensitive inaccurate or even illegal.
I would like to know what happened and how.
I would like to think at least one member on this site has gained from this expereince but not at the expense of the survivors or ultimately the site.

[White trash]

Being the cold hearted bastard that I am,I would of prefered to of seen a thread saying ''this is what happend...the cold hard facts'' No judgements,no guessing.Two seperate accidents,no mixing it all up.Say what happened and close the thread...discuss it somewhere else.All this drama because most people don't know what the hell happened,and those that do know (apart from Quasi) not fronting up.Just my view.

Laying it down? Definatly,done it plenty of times.Know when to bail...before you go down,or on the ground.A bike is a heavy sharp projectile,and when it's not got two bits of rubber on the ground it's pretty uncontrolable.I don't want to be where it reaches a stopping point,I don't want to be involved in it's crash....I'll take my chances on my own thank you.
How's this sound.

"No one's fronting up because no one KNOWS what happened." Quasi included. No one saw it, just a heap of people on the scene for the aftermath.

I'm of the oppinion that this needs to be discussed, but not while there's a PROFFESIONAL investigation underway.

I simply can't believe that people want to flog a dead horse. The thread THIS thread stemed from has been pulled. No amount of debate will have it reinstated. Live with it.

If you can't, find another forum to populate.

I hear www.stuntusa.com is recruiting kiwis......

[Motu]

How's this sound.

"No one's fronting up because no one KNOWS what happened." .....

So,ok - let's start from there.The basis of all the shit that's gone down is the cover ups,the closed mouths,the decisions made behind the scenes,it's been a total fuck up from the very start.So no one knows what happened - how about someone say that,stop all the supposition.There has been total control - but no guidance system.How about some honesty? That's pretty fucking basic in my world.

[SPman]

I am a firm believer that "education over legislation" is the answer. Something that this site does very well on a daily basis.

Its the difference between aviation - "lets find out what happened, in a no culpability way, to see if we can prevent it happening again", vs a legal/road transport system of - "what went wrong - who can we blame - who can we charge", style of thinking!

And thats what is fucking up the whole policing / road safety argument in most countries - here in particular, viz, charging the pilot in the Palmerston North crash! What a joke - if it wasn't so serious!


no one KNOWS what happened
As Motu said, if that was the case - a simple statement of "No one knows exactly what happened,there are guesses, but it is all supposition at this stage. It is being investigated and people will know when the investigation has been completed", I'm sure, would have sufficed.

[DEATH_INC.]

So,ok - let's start from there.The basis of all the shit that's gone down is the cover ups,the closed mouths,the decisions made behind the scenes,it's been a total fuck up from the very start.So no one knows what happened - how about someone say that,stop all the supposition.There has been total control - but no guidance system.How about some honesty? That's pretty fucking basic in my world.
Here is the simple truth (bruce and Daryl).
The FIRST on the scene was Draco and a guy in a cage. Neither saw what happened, nor could have anyone else. No-one REALLY knows what happened, so it's all speculation.
End of story.

[SpankMe]

The blind speculation about this particular accident has ended.

Someone should start a thread about general group ride etiquette.

[Motu]

Here is the simple truth (bruce and Daryl).
The FIRST on the scene was Draco and a guy in a cage. Neither saw what happened, nor could have anyone else. No-one REALLY knows what happened, so it's all speculation.
End of story.

Wow - and it's taken this long and thousands of posts before someone says what should of been said right at the beginning! You can shut the gate now,the horses have fled,bred,and come back home.

Mother knows best,she will tell you all you need to know.....but somehow my mental picture of Mother has a toothbrush mustache and a seriously unsettling hairdoo.