Law makers/breakers

[sAsLEX]

Seeing aunty helen's motorcade breaking the law on the news this morning reminded me of another instance down south when an MPs cars overtook us when we were travelling above the posted speed limit.

Now what repurcusions sp? will come of this? Shouldn't this sort of person be setting the example to NZ. What am I now to think, if I am running late for the airport it is ok to speed, even through built up areas?

[James Deuce]

Seeing aunty helen's motorcade breaking the law on the news this morning reminded me of another instance down south when an MPs cars overtook us when we were travelling above the posted speed limit.

Now what repurcusions sp? will come of this? Shouldn't this sort of person be setting the example to NZ. What am I now to think, if I am running late for the airport it is ok to speed, even through built up areas?

I believe that it will be an issue for the drivers of the vehicles. As a passenger she couldn't be held responsible for speeding.

[sAsLEX]

yes i know this is true, but I am certain she would have noticed the lights and speed they are alleged to have been doing, unless she was sleeping?, and being in a position such as hers she should have informed her drivers that in this country it is suicidial to break the posted speed limits! and that her government views speed as the one true evil that will bring this country to its knees.

Sure the police get good driver training about driving at high speed, except in the wet!, and that it was probally safe as houses the speed they were doing I just dont think it is a very good example to the NZ public.

[Cajun]

i mean 198kms in 2 hours, i have done that sorta distance in close to half that time, and i wasn't speeding overall that much, if you sit at 100km/h whole way you be there in time, okay so you slow down for some towns so you sit at a slighty higher speed of 110,

those people on homes, oh i heard the car engine screaming, before i heard the police siregn, bollocks.

just some people annoyed that someone more important passed them and decided to get them in to trouble

[750Y]

the driver was possibly assuming he'd be afforded a ceratin amount of 'discretion'.

[k14]

Well apparantly it was a police escort. It said in the paper that there was a cop car in the front and the back with the PM's limo in between.

Cajun, how on earth could you do 198kms in around about 1 hour without "speeding overall that much", yeah right, you do realise that to do 200 or so kms in around 1 hour the average speed would be 200km/hr.

[Jackrat]

Well aunty helen has said it publicly before" She doesn't care what other people think" So get over it.There is a law for us and a law for her.

[merv]

Now what repurcusions sp? will come of this? Shouldn't this sort of person be setting the example to NZ. What am I now to think, if I am running late for the airport it is ok to speed, even through built up areas?

Now if you could organise that Police escort it would probably work for you too.

I think the whole thing is a storm in a teacup - officials motorcades or whatever speed under supervision when they need to all over the world and on this forum I thought we all thought policing of the speed laws is oppressive and hopefully this will hint that it aint so dangerous at all to cover that distance that quickly. Problem is as usual the minority of do-gooders come out of the woodwork and get their fame on Holmes.

[Firefight]

Now if you could organise that Police escort it would probably work for you too.

I think the whole thing is a storm in a teacup - officials motorcades or whatever speed under supervision when they need to all over the world and on this forum I thought we all thought policing of the speed laws is oppressive and hopefully this will hint that it aint so dangerous at all to cover that distance that quickly. Problem is as usual the minority of do-gooders come out of the woodwork and get their fame on Holmes.



well done Merv, couldn,t agree more.

F/F

[Cajun]

i have done many trips between auckland and tauranga which is about 200kms

i have done it in everything from 1 hour 15 (bike) to 1 hour 30min (car).

Damn straight merv

[k14]

i have done many trips between auckland and tauranga which is about 200kms

i have done it in everything from 1 hour 15 (bike) to 1 hour 30min (car).

Damn straight merv

Well in that case it is impossible for you to have done that without speeding excessivly.

Anyway, back to the topic, if it was maybe for something important then I could understand. But to catch a plane to get to the rugby, pffft. I suppose it was a bit of a storm in a teacup but it does seem a little hypocritical that she can do it even though the rest of us can't. Just remember that ad, her driver and the cops driving the cars in the escort are "willing to kill."

[Cajun]

Well in that case it is impossible for you to have done that without speeding excessivly.

Anyway, back to the topic, if it was maybe for something important then I could understand. But to catch a plane to get to the rugby, pffft. I suppose it was a bit of a storm in a teacup but it does seem a little hypocritical that she can do it even though the rest of us can't. Just remember that ad, her driver and the cops driving the cars in the escort are "willing to kill."
the 1 hour 30 in a car wasn't speeding that much we sat at 120km/h all the

okay it was night and no traffic on the road.

[spudchucka]

Well apparantly it was a police escort. It said in the paper that there was a cop car in the front and the back with the PM's limo in between.

Cajun, how on earth could you do 198kms in around about 1 hour without "speeding overall that much", yeah right, you do realise that to do 200 or so kms in around 1 hour the average speed would be 200km/hr.
1 hour?? I see the birth of another urban legend. Check the report I think you will see a time slightly longer than that.


The three-vehicle convoy covered the 209 kilometres from Waimate to Christchurch in two hours on Saturday afternoon after a mechanical problem caused the cancellation of her flight from Timaru to Wellington.

Waimate Mayor David Owen reckons the trip normally takes 2½ hours, though he used to do it in two before traffic increased and speed cameras lurked over every hill.


From http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2977944a11,00.html

Funny how it doesn't take long for things to get blown out of all proportion.

[Mr Skid]

"I was looking around and I heard this screaming of an engine, knew it was travelling at a very high speed but didn't hear the siren till it was right on top of us," Mitchell told the Holmes show.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/437256?format=html

A screaming engine?? I find it hard to believe that Clark's minders would have been bouncing their engines off the rev limiter.. :crazy:

While I'd dearly love to see Helen in grief over this one due to her government's prescriptive approach to road safety, I have strong doubts in the veracity of these bystanders claims.. They're probably angry Winston First voters out to topple the government.. :wacko:

Anyone prepared to offer a prediction/guess as to the outcome of the investigation?
If I were a betting man, my money would be on the PCA blaming the speeding on 'misunderstanding of operational procedures' and my old favorite 'communications breakdowns', with the drivers getting the proverbial slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket etc. :Pokey:

[riffer]

They will probably be investigated by the same people who believed Mark Lundy didn't use excessive speed between Wellington and Palmy...

But seriously, in the execution of public duty the PM's car is allowed to travel as fast as it wants to go.

Storm in a teacup really, unless they crash into someone.

Ultimately, its up to the driver to prove they were safe and Helen Clark's spin doctors to find a sufficiently believable reason other than the possibility of missing the rugby.

[k14]

1 hour?? I see the birth of another urban legend. Check the report I think you will see a time slightly longer than that.

Read what I said properly spud, I was talking to cajun, not commenting on the clark convoy.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Yes well... I suppose now that the politicians and police are prepared to kill me (speeding) I can apply for refugee status in...ummm.... lets say... Germany?

Response heard on the radio this morning.. misquoted... "A police car overtook me along xyz road and I followed him all the way down at 65kmh" These people are ignorant of the underestimation of speedos, so there could be another reason.

So, what speed does a screaming engine in top gear of a Commodore/Ford Fairlane do? I dont think they actually scream at all in top gear due to electronic limiters right? So was it just that the patrol cars/motorcade were flying along on the revlimiter in first gear??

[riffer]

More likely a bunch of bored ignorant folk speculating.

Absolute bollocks without an actual reading of speed.

If you are walking its very easy to overestimate a car's speed I reckon.

They were more likely doing 90km/hr.

The noise was more likely tyre howl on our shitty roads

[merv]

Helen's car would be an LTD and I doubt you could hear the engine much. Bystanders claim was the first Police vehicle was some sort of 4x4 and again I doubt it would be that noisy let alone sound like it was revving hard.

[riffer]

Bystanders claim was the first Police vehicle was some sort of 4x4.
Definitely tyre howl then...:mellow:

[sAsLEX]

just put this to see peoples opinions, having driven down there a few times I know that the roads can cope with higher speeds easily, but in a 4x4?? And isn't this country all about storms in teacups, what would the news do if helen wasn't ripping off paintings or the like?

Also the phrase 'practice what you preach' comes to mind. The current series of adds and anti-speeding campaigns would suggest that this is one of their major issues they are trying to get us to swallow, a bit hard when they themselves dont take their own medicine.

If helen hadn't help deplenish our defence forces a plane/helo could of gone down to pick her up or she would have her own (we have little twin engine 15 odd passenger aircraft we train hercules pilots on, why dont she have one of them to cart her round??)

[Wenier]

the fact is that the bystanders really didnt no wut speed they did and over exagerated by a huge amount. 140-150 doubt it in a 50k zone maybe 70-80 in reality. All they wanted was their 15secs of fame, i mean shit one guy was gonna ramble on about all the events leading up to it and holmes had to stop him and tell him none of that matters only the bits where they saw them mattered. I reckon they probably travelled at about 20-30k of the posted limit if anything and that would b sufficient to do the trip in 2hrs.

[rodgerd]

If you are walking its very easy to overestimate a car's speed I reckon.


Definitely, and perception can make a huge difference - my riding instructor warned our class that if we ever have an off, peds would swear black and blue we were speeding, no matter whether we were or not. He backed this up with tapes of a TV2 doco that showed the police investigation into a motorcyclist's death.

All the witnesses swore blind the guy was speeding. The police forensic evidence proved he'd be travelling around the speed limit.

[Ghost Lemur]

All I can say is WTF

I think it's offical. New Zealand is now a state of winjing(sp?) hillbillies.

Since when has anyone had a problem with a diplomatic car with diplomatic plates and police escort breaking the law. In fact it's not even breaking the law, as the law states vehicles with dip plates or under police escort do NOT have to obey the road rules.

Common people, even us bothering to discuss this is playing into the media's little game. I don't know what the purpose of their game is, but it's seriously pathetic and I really hope the international media doesn't pick up on the story.

[Two Smoker]

the 1 hour 30 in a car wasn't speeding that much we sat at 120km/h all the

okay it was night and no traffic on the road.
Cajun Mate i think your talking a bit of shit there mate..... I did North Shore to wellsford and back down SH16 to the Westgate in 95 minutes, that worked out to be an average speed of about 102kmh, and i can tell you i wasnt completely thrashing my car, but coming close to it....... My speeds were more around the 140-150 mark (average not top)

As for this, i know that when the police car is on official business (ie a car chase) they are allowed to travel upto 30kmh above the posted speed limit (unless the person being chased/incident area is a danger to Civilian life)

I dont see any major problem with what happened, its not like you couldnt here the cars coming (due to sirens) or see them coming (due to flashing lights......)

But there is also the arhuement that there is a staunch view that speed kills by the current government.....

[jimbo600]

Seeing aunty helen's motorcade breaking the law on the news this morning reminded me of another instance down south when an MPs cars overtook us when we were travelling above the posted speed limit.

Now what repurcusions sp? will come of this? Shouldn't this sort of person be setting the example to NZ. What am I now to think, if I am running late for the airport it is ok to speed, even through built up areas?

I had a police escort once. Only thing is was that they were all behind me with lights and sirens going. Lost them at some stage though.

[scumdog]

The public are hopeless when it comes to judging speed, they depend heavily on noise to get their idea of what speed a vehicle is doing.
Have you noticed what noise the fan makes on some 4X4s? sounds like the engine is getting a right caning at about 3000rpm.

The people who whinge at length about this episode have a sorry life - get a motorbike and go for a ride and get a life :2guns:

[Mr Skid]

Common people, even us bothering to discuss this is playing into the media's little game. I don't know what the purpose of their game is, but it's seriously pathetic and I really hope the international media doesn't pick up on the story.

err.. sorry to be the bearer of bad news but a quick google turns up quite a few international news agencies carrying the story..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3913107.stm
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=18&art_id=qw1090395180347B241
http://afr.com/articles/2004/07/21/1090089198325.html
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13161351,00.html
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1560333,00.html

Although at this point it appears to be conjecture what speeds they were doing, I think sAsLEX's argument about 'practicing what you preach' is valid.

Whether or not they have carte blanche to speed, it was a government motorcade, and that government has been financing an advertising campaign to promote the message that speeding is dangerous and immoral http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/media/2004/040419.html

So regardless of the legality of their speed, I do have to question what the PM's drivers are doing engaging in behaviour that her government's agency has defined as dangerous and immoral..

It does sound like a case of 'do as I say, not as I do'..

[spudchucka]

While I'd dearly love to see Helen in grief over this one due to her government's prescriptive approach to road safety, I have strong doubts in the veracity of these bystanders claims.. They're probably angry Winston First voters out to topple the government.. :wacko:
Waimate is former Jenny Shipley country isn't it??

[spudchucka]

Read what I said properly spud, I was talking to cajun, not commenting on the clark convoy.
Yeah, realised that afterwards, sorry.

[spudchucka]

the fact is that the bystanders really didnt no wut speed they did and over exagerated by a huge amount. 140-150 doubt it in a 50k zone maybe 70-80 in reality. All they wanted was their 15secs of fame, i mean shit one guy was gonna ramble on about all the events leading up to it and holmes had to stop him and tell him none of that matters only the bits where they saw them mattered. I reckon they probably travelled at about 20-30k of the posted limit if anything and that would b sufficient to do the trip in 2hrs.
Shows you how unreliable the whacko style of reporting produced by the Holmes show really is.

[moko]

We get similar stories cropping up all the time in the U.K.Usual line now is that V.I.P`s(in their own opinion normally)are driven at speed "for security reasons",not as honest as "because we can so you scum might as well shut it".Maybe she could make a statement on similar lines to calm things down,something like "Mossad are after me" <_<

[Lou Girardin]

I don't know if they've changed the law, but Crown cars have always had a defence against exceeding speed limits when on urgent business. I had a very quick trip a few years ago, following CR1 from Paraparaumu to J'ville. Used him as a screen for nasties ahead.
Apart from the obvious pleasure at seeing Helen get a taste of what the public get every day, I don't give a toss that they were travelling at what was a safe speed.

[sAsLEX]

In todays herald police commisioner Rob Robinson says that death and injury resulting from speeding is the " single most feared crime-related issue" and this gave police the mandate to take a hard line with enforcement, including fines.

Again we are being preched to and yet our role models are not following this themselves!!

[Deano]

In todays herald police commisioner Rob Robinson says that death and injury resulting from speeding is the " single most feared crime-related issue" and this gave police the mandate to take a hard line with enforcement, including fines.

Again we are being preched to and yet our role models are not following this themselves!!

I see it all the time here at work from management - "do as I say, not as I do". :finger:

[Mongoose]

She was leaving Waimate, no other reason is needed :wavey: :thud:

[spudchucka]

I see it all the time here at work from management - "do as I say, not as I do". :finger:
That is so often true of management regardless of the profession.

[spudchucka]

She was leaving Waimate, no other reason is needed :wavey: :thud:
Good one!!

[gav]

Seems the fact she was wanting to get to the rugby is the point that pisses most off. Timaru airport was closed, no flight out of Chch? The chap who rang *555 and was told it was the PM is a dork, I used to work for him and he hated Helen Clark with a passion! He'd be real steamed :laugh:

[vifferman]

This whole thing is a non-issue, in my opinion, and frankly I think it's been blown up out of all proportion. Front page news? Puh-leease! I was just reading yesterday an email from a friend in Washington DC who said that the roads are routinely closed off when Bush (or even any other significant pollies) are moving around, and that the motorcades often travel at over 100 mph. If he goes out for a meal or summat, the Secret Service close off all the roads around the area, tow all parked vehicles away, etc. Although this inconveniences THOUSANDS of people, it doesn't get reported in the media.

There are a number of significant points to be made here:

The PM didn't order the motorcade to speed, yet some idiots are trying desperately to make this a political issue.
There was no (or very minimal) safety risk with the cars breaking the speed limit, as there were cop cars with lights and sirens going. This is not the case when Joe Public speeds.
There were actually insignificant reasons for the speeding to have occured in the first place, so whoever made the decision was foolish. So what? Tell him/her/them off, and get over it.
There's some serious butt-covering and blame-shifting going on. How much is an investigation into this non-event going to cost?

[Firefight]

This whole thing is a non-issue, in my opinion, and frankly I think it's been blown up out of all proportion. Front page news? Puh-leease! I was just reading yesterday an email from a friend in Washington DC who said that the roads are routinely closed off when Bush (or even any other significant pollies) are moving around, and that the motorcades often travel at over 100 mph. If he goes out for a meal or summat, the Secret Service close off all the roads around the area, tow all parked vehicles away, etc. Although this inconveniences THOUSANDS of people, it doesn't get reported in the media.

There are a number of significant points to be made here:

The PM didn't order the motorcade to speed, yet some idiots are trying desperately to make this a political issue.
There was no (or very minimal) safety risk with the cars breaking the speed limit, as there were cop cars with lights and sirens going. This is not the case when Joe Public speeds.
There were actually insignificant reasons for the speeding to have occured in the first place, so whoever made the decision was foolish. So what? Tell him/her/them off, and get over it.
There's some serious butt-covering and blame-shifting going on. How much is an investigation into this non-event going to cost?



Yeah well said mate, agree 100%

F/F

[sAsLEX]

funniest thing is now apparently old Brash has been doing naughty things in his car as well

[spudchucka]

funniest thing is now apparently old Brash has been doing naughty things in his car as well
He just doesn't want miss out on his fair share of the headlines.

[Cajun]

true that spud

[merv]

funniest thing is now apparently old Brash has been doing naughty things in his car as well

Now if it was "naughty" things in the car between Helen and Don that might have been worth putting in the tabloids, but getting along quickly to get out of the South Island is no big deal. Like who else likes driving/riding slow on the Canterbury Plains?

[vifferman]

Like who else likes driving/riding slow on the Canterbury Plains?Umm - what did you hear? I had a plane to catch on Saturday, honest!
(I did, actually, but I drove at sedate speeds in Canterbury. Central Otago was a different matter...)
Ah yes - driving slow (less than 70kph) on the canterbury Plains, in 1979, in an old Holden stationwagon, trying to eke out the petrol because the stations were closed on weekends. Holding my eyelids open with my fingers, because everyone else was asleep, and I damned near was too...:killingme
Wasn't the least bit funny at the time...

[Bob]

Just found this whilst doing my daily newsround...

NZ Premier Helen Clark has raised the prospect of a prime ministerial aircraft after the furore about her motorcade. She has been under fire since a cancelled flight prompted Saturday's motorcade dash from Waimate to Christchurch airport.

The Prime Minister said other leaders would not have to rely on commercial airlines "In other countries the prime minister would have a plane that flew them there," she said.

"I shouldn't be put in the position where people are complaining about the mode of transport. In other countries people are whisked from place to place by dedicated transport, air and road. No-one would turn a hair. Here the tall poppy syndrome says we'll try and pick and find fault."

[Deano]

I saw on the news tonight that 5 cops and the civilian driver of Helen's motorcade are now facing prosecution for the high speed run to watch the rugby. The opposition are saying they will take the flak instead of Helen. I guess they may have been under pressure but still, if she said jump off a bridge would they do it ?

Good to see that no one is above the law, at least in this case.

[scroter]

so they were speeding. who cares. i got no problem. now can i please speed officer :Police: with no further consequences or incidents be it law upholders or the media.

While im at it ive had 3 speeding tickets and havent been on the news for it once, not radio or even newsprint. i want my money back!!!

[Motu]

I wonder if it was the President of the United States of America,or the Pope if there would be a hew and cry about this sort of thing.We like our leaders to be a little more human,although some would doubt Helens humanity.But really - a head of state in an escorted motorcade,I don't see a problem with them speeding.

[Blakamin]

Just found this whilst doing my daily newsround...

NZ Premier Helen Clark has raised the prospect of a prime ministerial aircraft after the furore about her motorcade.
She probably would have one .... if the air farce still had planes!!!!

[inlinefour]

Seeing aunty helen's motorcade breaking the law on the news this morning reminded me of another instance down south when an MPs cars overtook us when we were travelling above the posted speed limit.

Now what repurcusions sp? will come of this? Shouldn't this sort of person be setting the example to NZ. What am I now to think, if I am running late for the airport it is ok to speed, even through built up areas?


can you tell me you dont speed??? :kick:

[sAsLEX]

i dont bleat on to the public through my legislation how dangerous it is too speed.

and yes I often go 101 or maybe 110

[Deano]

so they were speeding. who cares.

I care - I hate being told not to speed by people who then go and do it themselves and expect that its ok.


can you tell me you dont speed??? :kick:

No, but I don't go around telling others not to. So :kick: back at ya.

[Deano]

i dont bleat on to the public through my legislation how dangerous it is too speed.

and yes I often go 101 or maybe 110

:2thumbsup :2thumbsup :2thumbsup

[denill]

On this forum I thought we all thought policing of the speed laws is oppressive and hopefully this will hint that it aint so dangerous at all to cover that distance that quickly. Problem is as usual the minority of do-gooders come out of the woodwork and get their fame on Holmes.

Yeah, I'm with Merv on this one. Good on yer Helen, you have proved that speed does not (necessarily) kill. :yes: :yes:

But as Lou wrote, I also - "take pleasure at seeing Helen get a taste of what the public get every day",

Cheers
BillW

[MikeL]

This whole thing is a non-issue, in my opinion, and frankly I think it's been blown up out of all proportion.

There was no (or very minimal) safety risk with the cars breaking the speed limit, as there were cop cars with lights and sirens going. This is not the case when Joe Public speeds.

I agree that the whole episode has been gleefully seized upon by those with a political axe to grind (but could we expect anything else?).

However, disregarding the media hype there is still an important issue here. It is to do with the responsibility of people in power to ensure that propaganda messages are consistent, credible and perceived as reasonable. Without the LTSA "be prepared to kill" campaign, the PM's speeding motorcade would indeed be a non-event. In the context of the advertising campaign, it becomes at the very least an embarrassment...
Let's analyse the different messages we are getting here:

The faster you go, the more likely you are to kill. This is an inescapable statistical truth. The motorcade drivers, like all speeding drivers, were placing themselves, their passengers and other road users at higher risk. The law attempts to reduce this risk overall by punishing those who exceed the speed limit (and thereby deterring others) regardless of individual circumstances and without requiring any evidence of specific harm or danger. It then goes on to make exceptions to the rule in the case of emergency vehicles, police cars in pursuit, prime ministerial motorcades, or whatever. Attempts to justify this on the grounds that these drivers are more highly trained and skilful, or that the vehicles are inherently safer, are understandable but irrelevant and illogical, because individual circumstances are unable to be used as a defence against a speeding charge by the general public. The only logical justification is that the increased risk is outweighed by a greater good, i.e. the risk is acceptable. (The point at which the risk becomes unacceptable is of course a matter of judgement on which there is likely to be some disagreement...)
Now along comes the LTSA with the message that if we are prepared to speed, we are prepared to kill. No ifs, buts or exceptions. The traffic cop in pursuit, the ambulance driver, Helen's chauffeur, whoever... By exceeding the speed limit, they are knowingly and deliberately risking other peoples' lives as well as their own. They are potential murderers. If they have seen the television advertisements, they should by rights, as they watch the speedometer wind up, have mental visions of their neighbour's children, your brother, my sons and countless other innocent victims of their wilful act, looking straight at them and silently pleading for them to slow down and spare their lives...

So Helen deserves to feel a bit embarrassed. Not because she was in a car that drove faster than the rest of us are allowed to go. Who begrudges that?

She should be embarrassed that she is at the head of a government responsible for the travesty and inanity that is the LTSA...

[Sniper]

i dont bleat on to the public through my legislation how dangerous it is too speed.

and yes I often go 101 or maybe 110

I think Im dyslexic, 101kph could be 110kph or 102kph could be 120kph. And so forth, find it quite hard explaining that to the cops though. :Police:

[inlinefour]

I think Im dyslexic, 101kph could be 110kph or 102kph could be 120kph. And so forth, find it quite hard explaining that to the cops though. :Police:

I pass a car or cars and once back on my side of the road my speedo says? 106Km/h, opps sometimes 160Km/h. :ride: