ACC Survey

[Will]

I am one of the team that is working with ACC about Motorbike Safety. If you live in Auckland you may have noticed our "Lookout for Motorbikes " Campaign on the motorway off ramps in previous years. Our campaign this year is safety gear.


If you fill in this form, you are in the draw for a MTA Voucher and hi viz vest. But it has to be done by 21 December 2006.


SURVEY QUESTIONS FOR MOTORCYCLISTS (BE IN TO WIN A $50 MTA VOUCHER & HI VIZ VEST – 5 TO BE WON)

1 How long have you been riding a motorbike? Years ………….Months ………….

2 Do you own safety gear? Yes / No
• If so, do you have high visibility gear? Yes / No
• Do you wear it? Yes / No
• If not, would you tell us why?

Would you wear safety gear if you had any? Yes / No
3 How far do you travel on your bike? (in kilometres, approximately)

Per Day…………….. Per Week ……………….Per month…………
4 How often do you ride your bike?

5 Recreation/work use?

6 Have you been involved in a motorcycle crash/near miss?

7 Have you ever done any motorcycle training?

 Which city/district do you reside in: Rodney / North Shore / Waitakere / Auckland City / Manukau / Papakura / Franklin / Other? ………………………..

 Male / Female
 Age: (circle one)
• Under 15 / 16 – 25 / 26 – 35 / 36 – 45 / 46 – 55 / 56 – 65 / 66 & over / not stated

 Your name and contact number for prize draw …………………………………………………….
(Draw to be held 21 December 2006)
Send completed questionnaire to David Peirce, ACC Henderson, Private Bag 93107 or fax to (09) 915 8101 or e mail David Peirce at David.Peirce@acc.co.nz

[Gineen]

And what about a pillions' point of view?

[Gremlin]

emailed off to you :scooter:

oh, safety gear is a grey area... a helmet, while a requirement, is obviously safety gear... (question 2)

[Clockwork]

Judging frok the prize, I guess you really wanted to be selective about who should respond!.

[ZeroIndex]

is hi-vis gear the 3M on bags and jackets or only those hi-vis vests.. if the question is for hi-vis vests, then my response would be:
• If so, do you have high visibility gear? No
• Do you wear it? No
• If not, would you tell us why? cause Hi-vis vests are ghey

[Pumba]

Working through the survey now and I really think the questions are quite leading and very narrow minded.

In my opinion they (ACC) have already made up there mind what they want to try and impliment or recomend in order to keep, in there opinion, people safe and I dont have an issue with that. What I do take issue to is creating a survey that is geared towards answers that come out at a predefined outcome when there is an opurtunity to gather some useful information that may create some practicle outcomes that people may be happy to go along with.

All my personal opinion

[Pumba]

...................................

[sunhuntin]

2 Do you own safety gear? Yes
• If so, do you have high visibility gear? Yes
• Do you wear it? No
• If not, would you tell us why?
cos its too bloody hard putting it on over top of 2 other jackets, and dont even mention doing it up!

[ajturbo]

2 Do you own safety gear? Yes
• If so, do you have high visibility gear? Yes
• Do you wear it? No
• If not, would you tell us why?
cos its too bloody hard putting it on over top of 2 other jackets, and dont even mention doing it up!

and it will more than likely fall apart at speed anyway

[Ixion]

Mine is certainly good to 170kph.

[Maverick]

Mine is certainly good to 170kph.

Not that any of us law abiding motorcyclists would ever ride that fast ;)

[buellbabe]

I don't wear fluoro safety gear... but must admit that I was watching a bike on the motorway the other day thinking how it really stood out due to the fact that the rider was wearing a reflective yellow vest.
Food for thought...

Buuuuuuut that reminds of a group ride I went on once... we were all in traditional black leather except for this 1 guy that turned up in full fluoro safety gear... it didn't take us long to realise that he needed the gear so that people could keep out of his way cos he was such a SHOCKINGLY bad rider LOL

[Whynot]

Working through the survey know and I really think the questions are quite leading and very narrow minded.

agreed, some of those questions need to be reworded me thinks ....

[thealmightytaco]

I wouldn't wear hi-viz cause I bought one of quasi's orange & black jackets, I'm all for being seen but you've gotta do it with style. And in sunstrike fluoro wont help, black is your friend.

[Whynot]

with respect to hi-vis vests, I used to wear them on the way to and from work. I don't wear them anymore because:

-They typically flap around too much and bunch up so as to not be very effective anyway
-They wear out fairly quickly
-They are a pain in the arse to get on and off

Reflective strips in a jacket seems to me to be a far better solution.

[madandy]

I don't live in Auckland but I do ride around there a fair bit...have E-mailed a reply anyways.
Any extra prizes for attatching a bright orange flag on a tall stick to our bikes?

[davereid]

Extra shiny coats wont help you be seen.

I've had drivers make eye contact, and then pull out in front of me. I've also had them pass me, then turn right in front of me.

I think its all to do with the way the brain processes information. We evolved from animals that were hunting other animals, and being hunted themselves. So our brain is very good at processing data that involves prey, or threats.

Mostly when we are driving, we are relying on primitive parts of the brain. We sometimes cant even remember parts of our trip yet we were driving perfectly, cos age old parts of the brain were in charge.

And when drivers are in that auto-pilot mode, and come to an intersection to give way, when we see a car or truck, the brain recognises the threat, and we do something about it. But smaller objects don't pass the threshold, and even though we see them, they arent processed and we dont deal with it correctly.

Thats why I get cut off or ignored lots more on my scooter than I do on my Harley. I simply am recognised as a threat when I'm on the Harley, even though I am very little more visable than when I'm on my scooter.

And its the same in reverse - I know I am more vulnerable on my bike, so my brain does a better job of identifing threats, and so I ride my bike much better than I drive my car.


:done:

[Ixion]

I don't live in Auckland but I do ride around there a fair bit...have E-mailed a reply anyways.
Any extra prizes for attatching a bright orange flag on a tall stick to our bikes?

I tried that, but it wasn't very successful. Too hard to get a stick that didn't have issues at speed, ditto the flag, they disintegrated or tore off, and the sticky out stick thing, if long enough to be useful, would hit stuff when banked over. But I'd be interested to hear from anyone who had better results

[Crisis management]

Ixion, you need fluoro gaiters so when you go arse over kite we can find you again....just a friendly tip from your local ACC office!

Did the survey but wasn't impressed with the narrowness of it, what is to be gained from it?

[davereid]

Whats to be gained ? Compulsory fluro-pink jackets for all bikers. For your own safety of course !

[sunhuntin]

Whats to be gained ? Compulsory fluro-pink jackets for all bikers. For your own safety of course !

:stupid:

10 effin chars

[MSTRS]

Whats to be gained ? Compulsory fluro-pink jackets for all bikers. For your own safety of course !

But only for Aucklanders, since the majority of us are excluded from adding our 2 cents worth...

[vifferman]

I've had seven (7) significant accidents, and hi-viz would've made not the slightest bit of difference:
1. I clipped a car, because it was dusk, dim lighting, and I was wearing a blue-tinted visor.
2. A cyclist crossed my path without turning her head to look. I hit her because (a) I was going a bit quick, and (b) I was a relative noob, and hadn't learned to use the front brake properly.
3. A car failed to give way to the right on an uncontrolled intersection. A sharp thump in the centre of the car (and a subsequent bill for the damages for their car and my bike) soon gave them the learn.
4. I lowsided on a squashed softdrink can, because I didn't see it as I tipped in to the corner. Oh wait - THIS one would've been helped by hi-viz, if the CAN had been wearing it! It had all the paint abraded off, so it blended too well with the asphalt.:eek:
5. I hit a pedestrian who stepped in front of me, after I'd slowed, tootled the horn melodiously, then swerved. She didn't see me, because the silly bitch turned AWAY from me! Perhaps if I'd had flashing hi-viz clothes, she might've seen the glare reflecting from a nearby building or other traffic?
Never mind - a leg broken in two places, a week spent in hospital reflecting on her idiocy, and a bill for $3k helped give her the learn...
6. A BMW driver suddenly decided she was in the wrong lane, and changed lanes, confirminating as she went. I think she might've looked AFTER I hit the deck, because she stopped.
7. I hit a car that u-turned into me. He may have looked when he first took off from the kerb/curb/kurb/cerb/kirb, but he sure as hell didn't check his mirrors again before he cracked the u-turn WITHOUT INDICATING! :angry:


Anyway, as others have said, hi-viz gear is teh ghey, flaps, is hard to put on, and sux. Even if it was compulsory, I wouldn't wear it.
Fuck the Safety Nazis. :Pokey:

[Whynot]

Fuck the Safety Nazis. :Pokey:

hear hear :rockon:

[vifferman]

So our brain is very good at processing data that involves prey, or threats.

Here's an interesting observation (or not).
Back in the days when my bike appeared to be black (it was actually "Granite Blue Metallic" - i.e., black), I temporarily was in the position of having two bike jackets and a couple of choices of glubs. When I was commuting wearing ALL black (coz my helmet was black, as were boots, pants, leather jacket), people actually moved out of my way more than when I wore my red/black jacket and ghey Spidi Pro 1 glubses (black/yellow/white/silver).
Why?
Because it was more threatening.

I've had a guy on an all-black VTR, with black Roof helmet, dark visor, all black gear and loud pipes come up behind me, and even though I was on my bike (which was kewler), I found it somewhat threatening. The blackness, and not being able to see a face or anything resembling a face is quite a threat. Why do you think Darth Vader was all black, with dark visor, even though he turned out to be such a pussy? (not that I've actually ever seen any Star Wars movies. Well... maybe just the first and second ones, which apparently were actually the fourth and fifth ones, or summat...)

[vifferman]

hear hear :rockon:

Seriously. If you think about it for any length of time, it becomes very apparent that the Safety Nazis are fucking up the world. Not just because it's getting more boring, but because they're taking away our freedom, and poisoning the way people think and act.
The latest bit of stupidity? In The Harold this morning, a church in someplace somewhere has banned real candles for Christmas vigils by kids, because "their hair might catch on fire" :shit: even though in the bazillion and seven years they've been doing it, there had been no such incidents reported.
FFS!! Hair (apart from Michael Jackson's) isn't even particularly flammable.
But maybe they're right: maybe today's kids are so namby-pambied, cuddled and cossetted, and unadventurous, that they don't know how to handle dangerous things like candles...

[Nutter34]

Well, I'd like to think that a headlight is way more noticeable than a flouro vest will ever be. Specially considering there will be fairings, tank bags, etc. blocking the view when seen from the front. If plebs in cars don't even notice said headlight, what difference is a vest going to make?

Maybe vests are useful when viewed from the side as on motorways but then you're still relying on said car pleb to do a head check, ie a blindspot check.

As for my gear, wear full leathers most of my rides and if I use the bike at night, the gear has reflective strips... Once again, if they miss the lights, reflective strips won't make any difference.

[Whynot]

Seriously. If you think about it for any length of time, it becomes very apparent that the Safety Nazis are fucking up the world. Not just because it's getting more boring, but because they're taking away our freedom, and poisoning the way people think and act.
The latest bit of stupidity? In The Harold this morning, a church in someplace somewhere has banned real candles for Christmas vigils by kids, because "their hair might catch on fire" :shit: even though in the bazillion and seven years they've been doing it, there had been no such incidents reported.
FFS!! Hair (apart from Michael Jackson's) isn't even particularly flammable.
But maybe they're right: maybe today's kids are so namby-pambied, cuddled and cossetted, and unadventurous, that they don't know how to handle dangerous things like candles...

I am all too familiar with safety nazi-ism ....
work is covered in it, we are barely able to take a shit without filling in an incident report :mellow:

[Ixion]

In Auckland type traffic, I don't think headlights are particularly noticeable nowdays.

Reason is that headlights used to stand out because they were *different*. The thing about people noticing something that is a threat is valid, but people also notice something that their brain can't "classify". In the jungle, the unknown is assumed to be dangerous. A headlight in daytime used to invoke a "WTF is that?" reaction.

But now there are so many lights , and a lot of cages have headlights on too, so the novelty factor is gone. And peole don't notice them any more.

I think the same thing is happening with Hi vis vests now so many people are wearing them, roads works crew, truck drivers etc. People used to notice them because they stood out , they weren't part of the familiar scenary. Now they've just become part of the "normal background"

[Ixion]

I am all too familiar with safety nazi-ism ....
work is covered in it, we are barely able to take a shit without filling in an incident report :mellow:
Well , if a vindaloo was on the previous days menu, I think that could be quite valid. I'm OK though, my shit don't stink.

[Squeak the Rat]

There's something else about the all-black gears. There is a full shape of a human being all one colour (black).

What do the army use when they don't want to be seen? They break up the patterns so that a soldier doesn't have a distinct outline and consistent colour (ie camouflage or DPM's).

Wearing all these different colour bits and pieces of biking gear might actually be counter-productive.

The stats may show white helmets and high vis wearers being under-represented in accidents. But is this because the people that where wear these items are more cautious in general?

[Edit:]
PS Will, I live in Auckland and cannot recall any "Lookout for Bikes" signs on the motorway onramps. Do you have any measurements to show how effective these were? Can something more effective than a billboard be done to ensure driver education?

[MSTRS]

... today's kids are so namby-pambied, cuddled and cossetted, and unadventurous, that they don't know how to handle dangerous things like candles...
Or perhaps when afforded the rare opportunity, they 'binge'...

[sunhuntin]

ive had one accident, and a couple of near misses in the near two years ive been riding legally. my biggest and first was in october last year. heading to work, wearing helmet, jeans, good boots and a singlet. youd think the sun glaring off snow white upper arms would be enough, but i had my light on just in case.
come up to a stop sign controlled intersection, where i had right of way [for those familiar, it was where write price used to be.] im doing about 55k, as per usual. start to overtake a row of cars turning left to pick up kids from intermediate. there are cars at both stop signs. ive just cleared the row of cars ive overtaken [safely i might add] when a car on my left pulls from her stop sign. i look at her front bumper, and then to the opposing lane, which had oncoming cars right the way up. i choose to hit her rather than a car going about 50k or more.
my front end hit her left indicator. i was up on the pegs and sailing before i knew what happened. couple of mid air rotations [why couldnt i do that when i was a kid and wanted to??] and slap, im on the ground, flat on my back. a quick check tells me everything hurts, but nothing appears to be missing.
i struggle to my feet and take my helmet off cos i feel like a dick wearing it and not being on the bike. my topbox somehow didnt land on my head, and it held my jacket and, more important, my cell phone. i got it about an inch off the ground before i dropped it. too heavy. my backpack is sitting on her bonnet, and my bike [with bungy from the pack] are half under her front end, sorta in the middle of the road.
i limped to the footpath and sat down, to be met with "i didnt see you, im so sorry, ill pay for everything"
fire engine shows up. by this time, im flat on the ground wanting to hurl my entire insides onto the ground. my left jeans leg is a mess and that leg hurts like no bodies business. so does my right knee, but its not as bad.
ambulance arrives. someone has rescued my bike and other gear, and im givin my backpack. the bikes bars are fucked, missing a lever and mirror, and theres a huge dent in the tank from where my right knee hugged into it.
cops and workmate show up. am so pleased to see my workmate, but she couldnt stay. i sent her back with messages. cops talk to both me and the cager. im loaded in the ambulance and carted off, talking to the guy about tattoos.
wait at hospital and freeze my ass off, due to my jackets being in the topbox [which i also have, somehow, along with my keys.] parents show up, and i get taken for xrays. 2 or 3 rays later, im stuck in a cast, for what turns out to be a hair on the lens. my left leg will never have any feeling in it again, and is basically scar tissue from the knee down. my right knee will pain for the rest of my life, and will give difficulty when kneeling.
the letter i get from the police tells me: she wont be charged, despite the fact she ran a stop sign without a clear view in either direction [due to the turning cars on my left] and the fact she showed remorse [so did i by not knocking her block off] it also is worded in a way to say i should be grateful to not be charged myself for going a little over the limit.
my bike was written off. my legs are stuffed and will only get worse. would a hi-viz vest have helped? no. has the accident changed my riding habits? no. i still ride in tshirts and less when the suns warm, and often at over 50k where theres enough room. has it changed her habits? i doubt it. if i could remember what she looked like, id send her home with a black eye.

my point it, the only thing that will keep us bikers safe is proper CAR DRIVER EDUCATION! you dont pull out from anywhere just assuming the way will be clear. who cares if you get there 5 mins late, so long as the 5 mins isnt the difference between life and death for someone else. better to get there late, than never get there at all. about 5 seconds would have been the difference between me still being in working order, and her being held up for a lot longer due to the motorbike being under her bumper. 5 seconds.

[Lucy]

That is a bummer about your accident, sorry to hear that. But how do you know a vest would have made no difference? I wear a vest, and people have told me that they can see me better. I ride on the motorway, and often drive a cage on the motorway, and perve at bikes, and the ones wearing hi-vis are much more visible. (Funnily enough.) Riders who wear all black do look a little threatening, that is true, at least they do when they are stopped at the lights or cruising slowly through town or in slow traffic, but at high speeds on the motorway they are just a black blob that blends in. Even if my vest is just a flash out of the corner of their eye, it just might make a difference. I'm prepared to be 'gay' if it increases MY odds even a little. And the yellow shows up more than the orange, unless the orange ones I've seen are dirty.

[Ixion]

You are correct in thinking that the yellow/lime is more visible than the orange. I conducted my own trial. Our house overlooks the immediate neighbourhood. I stationed a watcher at a vantage point, whilst I rode out of sight, and back by a route that would bring me progressively closer (and more conspicuous) to the house, whilst wearing variously yellow vest, red vest, and no vest (in random order). My watcher noted in each case the point at which she first noticed me amidst the traffic. I repeated the test 6 times for each colour (18 in all). The results conclusively showed that the yellow vest was detected earlier than the red , which was noticed sooner than no vest.

I think though that I may distinguish between visibility and registration. It is possible for something to be physically visible and yet the viewer does not register its presence. This is the classic situation of making eye contact with someone who then proceeds to pull out in front of you. He SAW you but did not register your presence. His eyes were working, not his brain. I do not think that hi-vis gear helps with this. No matter how bright you are he will not "see" you.

But a motorcycle is a small object. Sometimes other motorists simply , genuinely do not see us. I think the Hi vis gear helps with this. We are more VISIBLE , for anyone whose brain is in gear.

And, all said, my position is that the vests cost very little (free, in my case). And there is no downside to wearing them (apart from the nonsensical "they're ghey" argument, which I ignore as being pointless). So , even if it makes very little difference, there is evidence that it may make SOME difference, for an insignifcant cost. So why NOT do it?

[crashe]

PS Will, I live in Auckland and cannot recall any "Lookout for Bikes" signs on the motorway onramps. Do you have any measurements to show how effective these were? Can something more effective than a billboard be done to ensure driver education?

They have been up all over but not on every ON RAMP.
They are put up every so often. So they are up for a week or so and then the merge like a zip sign goes back up....

The signs are usual size...... 2.4 X 1.8

In fact you will see them as bumper stickers on the back of some cars as well.

Seen them at:
Royal Rd on ramp
Western Springs on ramp
Manukau off ramp
Devonport off ramp

Plus lots of other places.



Edit: I prefer the LIME vests over the orange ones as well..
with the fluresant "H" strips on them

[sunhuntin]

That is a bummer about your accident, sorry to hear that. But how do you know a vest would have made no difference? I wear a vest, and people have told me that they can see me better. I ride on the motorway, and often drive a cage on the motorway, and perve at bikes, and the ones wearing hi-vis are much more visible. (Funnily enough.) Riders who wear all black do look a little threatening, that is true, at least they do when they are stopped at the lights or cruising slowly through town or in slow traffic, but at high speeds on the motorway they are just a black blob that blends in. Even if my vest is just a flash out of the corner of their eye, it just might make a difference. I'm prepared to be 'gay' if it increases MY odds even a little. And the yellow shows up more than the orange, unless the orange ones I've seen are dirty.

lucy...i had my headlight on, and bare arms. ive worked out that no jacket and open faced lid makes me appear more "human" than a shapeless form on a bike that is often considered "alien-like" and unimportant. if she cant see that, then she wouldnt have seen a vest. ive started riding with my light on full, and have had no complaints from car drivers [lights flashing etc] but have had several cars stop and take a second look whereas they might otherwise have pulled out.

[MattRSK]

Fuck the Safety Nazis. :Pokey:

I agree. 100%.

[Lucy]

Bare arms? Surely the weather in Wanganui isn't that bad that it makes skin a safety item lol! Nah but yeah but nah you're right in that if it's gonna happen it's gonna happen. Like the people who don't even see the trains on the track, if their brain is off it's off.

[Big Dog]

They have been up all over but not on every ON RAMP.
They are put up every so often. So they are up for a week or so and then the merge like a zip sign goes back up....

The signs are usual size...... 2.4 X 1.8

In fact you will see them as bumper stickers on the back of some cars as well.

Seen them at:
Royal Rd on ramp
Western Springs on ramp
Manukau off ramp
Devonport off ramp

Plus lots of other places.



Edit: I prefer the LIME vests over the orange ones as well..
with the fluresant "H" strips on them


Aggreed, the orange ones vanish when riding "out of the sun". That and there is a Lime green one that a passing aquiantance had, said he got it off a fishing trawler.
storm collar, waterproof, double breasted (with several differnt zip choices to accomodate your different chest size with different seasons) and has big pockets. You find one and I will buy it and leave it on my jacket as a permanant overcoat.

Those thin ones suck and are often less visible in low light or after dark.
That said I wore one all the time as a noob. On the 250's they made a world of difference but became hazard in that ignorant bikers see fit to haze the 250 rider on an L with a fluro vest.

As a daily rider in the onslaught they call auckland the only reason I don't have one is I have yet to locate a suitable one and disagree that a bad one is better than none.

I commend the ACC for trying no matter how kackhanded their attempt.


To any noobs still reading at this point:

Don't ever let anyone tell you to compromise your saftey because its "ghey".
If you feel safer with one on show your inner strength and individuality and wear it.
If it ever actually saves you you will never know (same as with the headlight on).

If after a while you still feel it is not neccessary decide such for your self.

If your reading this and want to criticise wearers
Get your hand out of your pants, you narrowminded git!

If your reading this and slander the vest
At least try it before you knock it.

[Balding Eagle]

I have a bright yellow vest and wear it all the time. Personally I couldn't give a s**t if anyone thinks I'm "ghey" (crap spelling by that person). I have a strong enough personality to not be concerned by the misinterpretations of those who choose to think along stereotypical lines.

I have not had an accident yet on my bike but have not been riding long enough for this to be taken as part of a valid statistic. Do they prevent accidents? I suspect they do but there is insufficient science being used in the surveys to date to determine this for a fact. I certainly believe that I am more visible. You can not change the fact that some cage drivers' brains are not always in gear. That is why cars hit cars far more than they hit bikes. I shall continue to make myself as conspicuous as possible to minimise the possibility of an accident. I can't do much else. But what I always do is put on my full riding gear, top to bottom, and I will NEVER ride in jeans and a T-shirt so that IF, regretably, I am in an accident, I will have the best possible chance of survival and coming out unscathed.

As for expecting bare white arms to improve visibility - that's a new one on me.

[MacD]

There's something else about the all-black gears. There is a full shape of a human being all one colour (black).

What do the army use when they don't want to be seen? They break up the patterns so that a soldier doesn't have a distinct outline and consistent colour (ie camouflage or DPM's).

Wearing all these different colour bits and pieces of biking gear might actually be counter-productive.



There has been some research done on this in the UK. I have the reference at work so I'll edit it in later.

In urban environments with background clutter, black gear with the headlight on was one of the more visible combinations as it provided a high contrast target. Multicoloured riding gear was less visible and the conclusion was that the broken patterns did indeed act as camouflague.

In a rural environment, coloured and patterned gear was more visible, as it stood out against the general green background.

The two most important cues for recognition (seeing as well as looking) for motorcyclists appear to be contrast and movement, colour would come third. Also you are essentially colour-blind in your peripheral vision so movement (including flicker - hence modulated lights) is the most useful tool you have to alert a driver who is not looking directly at you to your presence. The trick is to move laterally in your lane, the movement towards is too small a stimulus (rate at which visual angle is changing as you approach).

Yellow-green vests appear most visible as that colour matches the peak of the photopic sensitivity curve which is around 555nm. It also explains why those people on the Blue-blocker sunglasses ad's used to make such a fuss about how good they were (that and they were Americans enjoying their 15s on TV ;) )

[Lucy]

Lol, movement - maybe it's my 'L' plate wobble that helps them see me, not the vest after all! I'll let you know if things change when I get better and smoother as a rider.

I agree that the multi coloured jackets are not very good for standing out in the cluttered environment, but comparing them to high - vis is like comparing apples and orangutans. (One is cool and expensive, one is 'ghey' lol)

Big Dog check out one of the safety shops (the ones that sell stop/go signs etc). A while ago I saw some meaty looking jackets in one of those that had flouro on the back.

I still reckon having the headlight on makes a difference too. Even though lots of cars do now too, those cars also stick out more, I don't think it makes the bikes stick out less.

[sunhuntin]

*snip*

possibility of an accident. I can't do much else. But what I always do is put on my full riding gear, top to bottom, and I will NEVER ride in jeans and a T-shirt so that IF, regretably, I am in an accident, I will have the best possible chance of survival and coming out unscathed.

As for expecting bare white arms to improve visibility - that's a new one on me.

funny thing is, eagle, as pointed out in my post above, my upper body was not covered other than a singlet and some tattoos. my upper body came off 100% ok [aside from a nick out of my thumb] i landed on my back. my left leg, knee down, is numb and ugly to look at. my right knee is stuffed from the tank hug and hates being kneeled on. my boots were cowboy boots, and definately saved my ankle from being destroyed. im still trying to work out why my back and arms were left unmarked. i dont think i even bruised.
and i never expected having arms etc visible to help, but i beleive it does help remind car drivers that we are actually human.

pics of my battle scars here: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v244/sunhuntin/accident%20oct%2026%2005/

[Street Gerbil]

IMO if someone manages not to notice a 90kg dude on a big red bike with a loud can, chances are he is not going to notice the vest either. Let's see if a 139dB stebel horn will improve my "noticeability".

[MacD]

I agree that the multi coloured jackets are not very good for standing out in the cluttered environment, but comparing them to high - vis is like comparing apples and orangutans. (One is cool and expensive, one is 'ghey' lol)

I didn't actually compare them to high-vis jackets, I compared black gear to multi-coloured gear, not solid-coloured gear such as a high-vis jacket, but nevermind that. Even with high-vis jackets, the contrast is more important than the colour, the yellow-green jackets appear brightest and so stand out the most.

What I was trying to point out is that the situation is much more complex than the black is bad, colour is good argument.

Also, why are orangutans "ghey"!? ;)

[NighthawkNZ]

I had a friend who use to be a cop, and he saw many "accidents" but one suck in his mind, showing how blind cage drivers actually are....

When he turned up to the scene, a middle age lady had somehow run into the path of a truck I don't know the details here... "I didn't see the truck officer... I just didn't see it..." I was thinking pickup truck when he told me this...?!?!! or a small utility truck.

His reply was... "Lady, how the hell can you not see a 18 wheeler Kenworth truck and trailer...???" :gob:


I myself have only had one accident in 15 years of riding... and I put that to being young dumb and and full of cum... I have full saftey gear, but not fluro, would I wear it... probably not.... ummm its soooooo ghey, the last one I tried flapped like a sex crazed monkey in heat and on the open road actually became annoying to the point I took it off...

My jacket has a few fluro strips but I doubt they can be seen from behind due to my packrack and pack... and I doubt from the front cause of my fairing and riding position, and I doubt from the side cause if you pull along side me you better you already know I am there and you better be looking ahead and your surroundings...

However i would never hassle anyone wearing one, if they believe it makes them feel safer... safe feeling means you will have a better sence of confidence... good on them... personal choice.

[Lucy]

.
What I was trying to point out is that the situation is much more complex than the black is bad, colour is good argument.

Also, why are orangutans "ghey"!? ;)


Yes, it is complex. And I would never make it law, everyone is entitled to wear whatever they want, and to have their own opinion, as others have said, some people don't see trucks, let alone different coloured jackets. To me though, it seemed that some people were trying to say that black, coloured, white skin, are as visible as a flouro yellow vest, when to me that is incorrect. Whether people WANT to wear them is up to them, but I know what my eyes tell me.

Did I really say that about Orangutans? How rude! I meant orange...

[The Big J]

Can you do a 'novelty' fluoro vest? If you could do one with abs and muscly arms I would consider it.
too late at night I know

[Squeak the Rat]

For the record, while I have doubts that a high vis is always the best choice, it comes down to this. If you want to have the highest average chance of being seen and you only have one item of clothing make it high vis.

If you want to sacrifice your safety because of fashion reasons then more fool you.

And the bestest option is to ride like the fuckers can't see you anyway, because sooner or later some one won't.

[23226]

For the record, while I have doubts that a high vis is always the best choice, it comes down to this. If you want to have the highest average chance of being seen and you only have one item of clothing make it high vis.


I disagree, I don't believe high vis is 'always the best choice'.

At night high vis is way less effective than scotchlite or similar reflective materials.

[Ixion]

But I would normally assume that "hi vis" was a vest with fluro fabric and reflective stripes. Which covers both. That's what mine is like, and the cop ones. I sort of assumed that was the norm

[ajturbo]

is it just me??
or have you also noticed that.
when you come up to road works, when thee are lots of those hi-vis cones that stand higher than shuan harris does....
that the workers (cough cough) BLEND IN and are hard to pick out?

i also remember this one time, on the way to ....... get something, there were some civil defence call out (high winds/flooding, just the usal tauranga stuff) they were blocking off the road ... well that is what i found out when i finaly got to them,
there they were, orange lights flashing, pointy lights waving, ... and it was only by the time i got close VERY close that in the darkenss ( i was being blinded by all the head lights and flashing lights of the trucks) that i realised there was someone standing in the middle of the road waving me down!!!!!! yes they were wearing a Hi vis jacket... that was usless!! so i told them to dip th elights of the trucks so people could see them!!!! or they WILL be HIT!!!
i even told them to walk back the way i had come and just see for them selves!!!!... on returning i had the same problem.. but this time i was expecting some one there... but i still could not SEE them till i was almost on top... and i wasn't speeding!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HONEST...

[Flyingpony]

Noticed any "Lookout for Bikes" signs ...
I've seen quite a few in Chch on spare wheel covers on 4wd's.

[23226]

But I would normally assume that "hi vis" was a vest with fluro fabric and reflective stripes. Which covers both. That's what mine is like, and the cop ones. I sort of assumed that was the norm

The next question I have is ; which is the best background colour for the scotchlite to be attached for it to have its maximum impact in the dark ?

flouro or non-flouro ( lets say black ) ?

[Lucy]

The next question I have is ; which is the best background colour for the scotchlite to be attached for it to have its maximum impact in the dark ?

flouro or non-flouro ( lets say black ) ?


Sounds like you are trying to get someone to say that the reflective strips stand out more against black. If I say it will you be happy? Ok,

Reflective strips stand out more against black.

No-one is trying to force anyone to wear anything they don't want. We all make our own choices as to what we want to wear to get the most out of our lives and our motorcycling. A High vis vest with reflective tape is not a Superman safety device that will save the wearer from ever coming to grief. As someone else pointed out, at night with trucks and flashing lights he nearly collected someone who was wearing one.

I wear one because in MY opinion it helps me be noticed more. You don't have to. No-one is trying to make you. I may be wrong, but it's not going to stop me wearing one.

[23226]

I'm not trying to persuade or dissuade anyone else using fluoro.

Just my personal opinion.

However with that said I don't feel I am any 'safer' with compulsory headlights on either.

[Squeak the Rat]

The point I was uneloquently trying to make earlier was this:


If you are concerned about your safety and want to be seen by car drivers, then wear hi-vis clothing.

If you understand the rationale behind the arguments for not wearing it sometimes AND you agree with it AND it's not just an excuse to not wear it THEN make up your own mind


There may be situations where it's not the best. But the majority of times it probably is, and the times that it isn't it's probably still not bad.

If you are going to argue against it (as I have done on occassions) consider that new riders may be influenced by your posts....... I would hate for my rhetoric to influence a riders choice on safety.

[Whynot]

someone should come up with a hi-vis made of bubble wrap :shit:
that would be awesome and we would be ultimately saved from any kind of injury at all :)

[NighthawkNZ]

Its like advertising in the newspaper... if all the adverts on the paper looked the same (which they generally do) they become a blur and people are de-sensitised to it... if you invert three or four of the adverts on the page then they all start to stand out more...

In our case of motorcycling its have look at me... see me... and don't pull out in front of me... and with the clutter of city life the Hi Vis Vest just may become a blur... I guess it wouldn't really matter what you wear... ??? But the vest would stand out more on the open roads.

The main thing is the gear you do choose to ride in should be able to protect you in possibility of a accident whether your fault or not...

Helmet that fits properly, boots, riding tro and jacket either leather or the new fandangle stuff... if you can afford make sure the jacket has a built in back proctector... Most of these new jackets come with fluro stripes here and there which help for night riding

As I stated before on my bike with the fairing and riding position you probably wouldn't see the vest and from behind all you can see is a pack... but thats just me and my bike and riding style.

[Lucy]

Good point about the backpacks, they do render the vests pretty useless. But if you are on a sports bike I guess you can scoot out of harms way. On a GN250 I am upright and slow, and with my vest and white helmet apparently I look like a cop, so maybe that is why people avoid me. Better be careful of where I ride as some might see me as bait!

And whoever said they should make vests out of bubblewrap....well really....I'd spend all day at the lights popping it and never get anywhere!

[NighthawkNZ]

And whoever said they should make vests out of bubblewrap....well really....I'd spend all day at the lights popping it and never get anywhere!

me two... bubble wrap fun :scooter:

[Big Dog]

Good point about the backpacks, they do render the vests pretty useless. But if you are on a sports bike I guess you can scoot out of harms way. On a GN250 I am upright and slow, and with my vest and white helmet apparently I look like a cop, so maybe that is why people avoid me. Better be careful of where I ride as some might see me as bait!

And whoever said they should make vests out of bubblewrap....well really....I'd spend all day at the lights popping it and never get anywhere!

When I used to wear one with a white helmet I too was oft mistaken for a bike cop, at a time there were no bike cops :rofl:
Even on a black bike with black helmet the blue jacket on is enough to make many boy racers (lint rollers, because when they are in front of you let then roll ahead picking up the fuzz) slam on the anchors, must be the size.

Every time I have stopped for an accident the people involved think I am off duty, except when wearing a blue or white collared shirt when they ask how I got there so fast lol.

EDIT: Mercury Bay have a range with Dayglo panels on the back. Well built sturdy and roomy.

[Beemer]

I did the survey but get the feeling that your ACC levies will rise if you "refuse" to wear high-vis vests! Not very exciting survey and some questions are very similar.

[Squeak the Rat]

I did the survey but get the feeling that your ACC levies will rise if you "refuse" to wear high-vis vests! Not very exciting survey and some questions are very similar.

Unfortunately that's similar to the feeling I got. But I am cynical.

Surely ACC realise that the responsibility lies with the driver of the vehicle giving way to look for traffic including bikes, bicycles, scooters etc.

[Beemer]

Unfortunately that's similar to the feeling I got. But I am cynical.

Surely ACC realise that the responsibility lies with the driver of the vehicle giving way to look for traffic including bikes, bicycles, scooters etc.

Yeah, I'm cynical too! Forcing people to wear particular gear is a bit like saying a woman wearing a short skirt is asking to be raped. Yes, we should all be wearing a helmet, good gloves, boots, pants and jacket, but until the manufacturers start making gear with reflective panels that looks good and fits well, most of us will wear what we like. I bought a safety vest for when I was working in Wellington and finishing work about 9pm but I haven't used it since. I don't think they make drivers any more aware of a rider - if the morons can drive in front of a truck or a train, a bit of orange fabric isn't going to be a magic wand when it comes to making us totally safe on the roads.

[logicnz]

Hi Viz gear seems to work but you are hoping that someone els's lights hit you coz if the lights dont hit the reflective bit you are screwed.



Have a look in the motomail shop in Auckland.

I was in there a few weeks ago and they have a new safety vest that has LED lights in it.
Bloody good idea as the lights are in the vest so they stand out from the rest of the traffic. and dont flap about coz you can pull them in tight.

I wear a hi-viz all the time, you must have a better chance of being seen if you have one on.